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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 24 of 24. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by uncouth on July 23, 2009, at 19:16:51
Hi there,
So, during college, I used to take ephedra diet pills. I did this for about 4 years straight, every day, without breaks. When I stopped, I plunged into my first real "depressive" episode -- back then, I didn't really know what depression was, so I never made the connection between my mood and the ephedra. And I wasn't feeling that "great" or satisfied with my life shall we say when on the ephedra. Nonetheless, 2 months after getting off of ephedra, I was on Effexor.
That was more than 5 years ago. Since then, i've been through the ringer. Tried probably 20 psychiatric meds, rTMS, ECT, years of therapy, etc.
It finally dawned on me...maybe, just maybe, I should try ephedra again. Perhaps, for better or for worse, taking ephedra for that long, at such a time in my life (18 - 22 years of age) when my brain was still developing, made some permanent changes to it. Maybe ephedra, at appropriate dosages, might be teh most effective antidepressant / adhd treatment for me?
Does anyone have any experience with using ephedra as an AD? Any advice?
I'm at my wits end. My life has been one sad story after another the past 5 years, more squandered opportunity than I care to mention...it would fill up all of psychobabble if I started to.
I can't take this anymore. These drug cocktails, this mood instability, these side effects...I just don't know what to do.
I've never tried ephedra since that day I gave it up over 5 years ago, and i'm considering it now. Maybe it's as simple as that.
Posted by Phillipa on July 23, 2009, at 19:22:35
In reply to Ephedra / Ephedrine for depression / ADHD, posted by uncouth on July 23, 2009, at 19:16:51
Is it still available? Phillipa
Posted by linkadge on July 23, 2009, at 19:53:19
In reply to Ephedra / Ephedrine for depression / ADHD, posted by uncouth on July 23, 2009, at 19:16:51
>Does anyone have any experience with using >ephedra as an AD? Any advice?
>I'm at my wits end. My life has been one sad >story after another the past 5 years, more >squandered opportunity than I care to >mention...it would fill up all of psychobabble >if I started to.>I can't take this anymore. These drug cocktails, >this mood instability, these side effects...I >just don't know what to do.
>I've never tried ephedra since that day I gave >it up over 5 years ago, and i'm considering it >now. Maybe it's as simple as that.Well, there are risks associated with ephedra, namely cardiovascular in nature. Long term use ephedra can also depleat catecholamine stores which could precipitate depression.
I assume you have tried medications like nortiptyline or desipramine. They may have clinical actions similar to ephedra.
I assme you have tried psychostimulants? Amphetamines are very similar to ephedra.
Linkadge
Posted by uncouth on July 23, 2009, at 19:59:54
In reply to Re: Ephedra / Ephedrine for depression / ADHD, posted by linkadge on July 23, 2009, at 19:53:19
yeah tried everything.
currently on 80mg of strattera, luvox, geodon, memantine, tianeptine, lunestacoming off of the memantine
was on adderall IR 10mg 2x/day for some time, but then switched to high dose strattera. to be honest, not sure that it's as good as adderall, but adderall definitely had an "on-off" sorta feeling to it.
also quit smoking cigarettes (pack a day) with the patch...but feel like i'm on mars. wow, cigarettes were easily my strongest psychiatric med i now realize, the absence of them flipped me on my head. but i haven't cheated. i think it's not the nicotine in the cigarettes i needed, it must have been one of the other chemicals that was doing something to me, because the patch did nothing for my withdrawal symptoms, it only helped with cravings.
anyway, just thinking about stuff. maybe ephedra is really what my body is craving and i can get off everything else? or maybe not.
Posted by linkadge on July 23, 2009, at 20:38:46
In reply to Re: Ephedra / Ephedrine for depression / ADHD, posted by uncouth on July 23, 2009, at 19:59:54
Cigarette smoke contains compounds which inhibit monoamine oxidase. You could try turmeric (a natural MAO inhibitor) but I don't know the safety of combining this with straterra.
Ginger root also inhibits MAO and seemed to have really good additive effects when I took it with straterra. I'd actually recomend ginger root with straterra.
Linkadge
Posted by softheprairie on July 24, 2009, at 5:44:33
In reply to Ephedra / Ephedrine for depression / ADHD, posted by uncouth on July 23, 2009, at 19:16:51
Oh man, I feel for you.
Real ephedra was taken off the U.S. market a few years ago. Maybe you knew this and were prepared to go to sneaky or extreme means to get it? If so, I'm not judging, but I am reminded of something I read here on babble: think of all your problems now, then think of having all of those same problems plus being in jail.
Have you tried pseudoephedrine? (For example, Sudafed is a name brand version.) It is still available, tho' with watchdogs. For part of college and into starting working I took it every day for a while. I'm not necessarily recommending this, but I admit I was taking it trying to get some more energy. My depression has a huge fatigue factor to it.
Posted by linkadge on July 24, 2009, at 16:36:16
In reply to Re: Ephedra / Ephedrine for depression / ADHD » uncouth, posted by softheprairie on July 24, 2009, at 5:44:33
Ephedrine is still legal in canada (I believe) is it legal to import it to the U.S.?
Linakdge
Posted by softheprairie on July 24, 2009, at 18:29:30
In reply to Re: Ephedra / Ephedrine for depression / ADHD, posted by linkadge on July 24, 2009, at 16:36:16
> Ephedrine is still legal in canada (I believe) is it legal to import it to the U.S.?
>
> LinakdgeI highly doubt it would be legal to import it, sorry to say. :(
Posted by floatingbridge on July 24, 2009, at 22:02:38
In reply to Re: Ephedra / Ephedrine for depression / ADHD, posted by softheprairie on July 24, 2009, at 18:29:30
Hi Uncouth,
I would caution against self treating w/ephedra, only because by itself, I'm not sure it's a long term solution. Or, I would try to find a good herbal practitioner (chinese medicine or whatever branch of natural medicine w/ a good track record) to suggest an ephedra formula that would support and tonify your whole system.
my two cents, and best regards,
fb
p.s. fatigue stinks....
Posted by linkadge on July 25, 2009, at 12:09:06
In reply to Re: Ephedra / Ephedrine for depression / ADHD » softheprairie, posted by floatingbridge on July 24, 2009, at 22:02:38
Have you ever tried SAMe?
Linkadge
Posted by Brains! on September 21, 2009, at 10:24:23
In reply to Re: Ephedra / Ephedrine for depression / ADHD, posted by uncouth on July 23, 2009, at 19:59:54
If you are interested in over-the-counter products, you might consider phosphatidylserine.
I've been researching it and it provides brain support, is missing from our food in comparison to our ancestors and supposedly helps with depression, ADHD, adrenal fatigue, quality sleep, cognition, memory & exercise recovery.
I started with my first dose last night. Slept very well. I'll follow up with more info as the experiment goes on. We will also have my ADHD dh try it along with very ADHD nephew & niece.
Something else I recommend, having received great benefit from it, is the information in an excellent book, "The Mood Cure" by Julia Ross. Her questionnare helps you identify which kind(s) of depression you have, and offers in depth information about using targeted amino acids along with vitamin/mineral supplements. It also helped me figure out that my thyroid needed support.
What is remarkable about Julia Ross is her origins in addiction recovery (including quitting nicotine). They found that diet helped folks with recovery, but the length of time it took to feel better contributed to derailing attempts. Adding targeted amino acids got folks on track immediately, and with an incredible increase in long term success rates. Her nutritional advice makes great sense, and in my case, it saved me from taking my own life (and gave me a new lease on it!)
Many people, though, find it difficult to come up with money for nutritional supplements, preferring to stick with drugs that can be paid for by insurance. Your choice, but I find that my co-pays are similar to the cost of supplements, and the supplements are more like foods, often putting back what is missing.
If your adrenals are exhausted (which surely could happen if you were on ephedra for years) then taking a look at caring for their recuperation would be wise, as would possibly a trial of Naturethroid (a dessicated thyroid medication). Investigate hypothyroid symptoms (stopthethyroidmadness.com or About.com, thyroid) and see if that might need addressing.
Hang in there! You are on the internet looking for answers and support. Keep trying, and you will likely find an answer that fits!
> yeah tried everything.
> currently on 80mg of strattera, luvox, geodon, memantine, tianeptine, lunesta
>
> coming off of the memantine
>
> was on adderall IR 10mg 2x/day for some time, but then switched to high dose strattera. to be honest, not sure that it's as good as adderall, but adderall definitely had an "on-off" sorta feeling to it.
>
> also quit smoking cigarettes (pack a day) with the patch...but feel like i'm on mars. wow, cigarettes were easily my strongest psychiatric med i now realize, the absence of them flipped me on my head. but i haven't cheated. i think it's not the nicotine in the cigarettes i needed, it must have been one of the other chemicals that was doing something to me, because the patch did nothing for my withdrawal symptoms, it only helped with cravings.
>
> anyway, just thinking about stuff. maybe ephedra is really what my body is craving and i can get off everything else? or maybe not.
Posted by sowhysosad on September 21, 2009, at 11:51:55
In reply to Re: Ephedra / Ephedrine for depression / ADHD, posted by Brains! on September 21, 2009, at 10:24:23
Keep us posted on how it works for you! Been thinking of trying it myself.
IIRC I also read here that it's a natural anticonvulsant.
> If you are interested in over-the-counter products, you might consider phosphatidylserine.
>
> I've been researching it and it provides brain support, is missing from our food in comparison to our ancestors and supposedly helps with depression, ADHD, adrenal fatigue, quality sleep, cognition, memory & exercise recovery.
>
> I started with my first dose last night. Slept very well. I'll follow up with more info as the experiment goes on. We will also have my ADHD dh try it along with very ADHD nephew & niece.
Posted by floatingbridge on September 21, 2009, at 13:13:20
In reply to phosphatidylserine » Brains!, posted by sowhysosad on September 21, 2009, at 11:51:55
Yes, Please let us know! I was recommended to take it by a friend. It's also listed in a new book UltraMind http://amzn.com/1416549714
as essential to repairing and maintaining brain functioning.
bestfb
Posted by sowhysosad on October 10, 2009, at 11:32:19
In reply to Re: phosphatidylserine » sowhysosad, posted by floatingbridge on September 21, 2009, at 13:13:20
Does anyone have any advice on how to take phosphatidylserine?
Should it be taken on an empty stomach or with food?
Should you avaoid taking other supplements (eg. aminos) or meds at the same time so they don't compete to cross the blood-brain barrier?
I hear it can be stimulating, so I guess it's best to take it early in the day.
Posted by Brains! on October 14, 2009, at 12:46:09
In reply to When and how to take phosphatidylserine, posted by sowhysosad on October 10, 2009, at 11:32:19
It looks like it works to increase and balance neurotransmitters, and I see no mention of taking it on an empty stomach as being wise or necessary. You will see in the first link it being used to support the adrenals (I first heard of it's use around adrenal support) and that many use it to treat insomnia, so experimenting with it to see whether it is energizing or relaxing for you is important.
Here are a couple of links:
http://www.dailystrength.org/groups/naturalalternativetreatments/discussions/messages/2759571
and
(look at all the tabs across the very top of the entry)
As an update, I took it a few nights, and found myself very constipated and grouchy over the next few days, at a dose of 100mg, though I did sleep well. So, I stopped the experiment for now, though not sure related.
I HAVE had great improvements in deep sleep ( very big deal for me) and well-being by taking powdered collagen types 1 & 3 @ 1-2 tbs daily as directed, recently, though.
I was taking it just to help heal the adrenals, (expecting a low-level background improvement over time) and found such improvement I began to research why it might have helped so much. I discovered that fibromyalgia is possibly a collagen (production) disease, (and depression is part of fibro) and that sleep continues in the alpha phase longer than it should in order to extend the repair time. I also read that fibro seems related to degrees of hypermobility syndrome, and we always prided ourselves on being "double jointed" and extra flexible in our family! Inadequate collagen again.
Less deep sleep (night waking) leads to depression, agitation, etc. I would wake up angry, go back to sleep and wake up at the get up time tired. Now I wake up 20 minutes before the alarm goes off....humming a cheerful tune, ready to bounce out of bed. Really!
I'm happy because it is the lowest cost of all the supplements I take around depression, and may do the most good, by correcting not symptoms alone, but addressing an underlying reason my tissues and brain have been malfunctioning. I have been able to cut down to less than a third the brain support depression amino acids I was taking before I began to use it. Yay!
Oh, and I read that fluoride in our tap water also contributes to the destruction of our collagen...that which literally (more than I ever realized) holds us together.
http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/fluoride-and-your-thyroid/
I'll let you know when my ADHD family members have tried phosphatidylserine, and let you know how it goes. And I may try it again myself....
> Does anyone have any advice on how to take phosphatidylserine?
>
> Should it be taken on an empty stomach or with food?
>
> Should you avaoid taking other supplements (eg. aminos) or meds at the same time so they don't compete to cross the blood-brain barrier?
>
> I hear it can be stimulating, so I guess it's best to take it early in the day.
>
Posted by sowhysosad on October 14, 2009, at 19:33:20
In reply to Re: When and how to take phosphatidylserine » sowhysosad, posted by Brains! on October 14, 2009, at 12:46:09
Thanks, Brains! Some great information there.
I particularly didn't realise that some people took phosphatidylserine for insomnia - I assumed everyone found it stimulating.
Perhaps it'll help me in that way as insomnia can be an issue, but my main motivations for taking it are as an anticonvulsant and to help with memory and cognition.
I wonder if I should split the dose if I end up going higher than one 100mg capsule.
Keep us posted on your and your family's further adventures with phosphatidylserine.
Posted by j9adhd+ on October 26, 2009, at 6:58:51
In reply to Ephedra / Ephedrine for depression / ADHD, posted by uncouth on July 23, 2009, at 19:16:51
I was thinking the same thing. I used ephedra (in fitness) for 2 years and had the best psychological control of adhd/depression. I have begun trying to find similar stories for comparative analysis.
Posted by Deneb on October 26, 2009, at 8:28:43
In reply to Re: Ephedra / Ephedrine for depression / ADHD, posted by j9adhd+ on October 26, 2009, at 6:58:51
Hello j9adhd+
Welcome to Psycho-Babble. I hope you're able to find similar stories for comparative analysis. You can try starting a new thread asking for people who have used ephedra. Usually new threads get more responses because they are easier to spot. Let me know if you have any questions about Psycho-Babble. I'll do my best to answer them.
Deneb
Posted by hopefullynow on October 28, 2009, at 4:14:51
In reply to Ephedra / Ephedrine for depression / ADHD, posted by uncouth on July 23, 2009, at 19:16:51
> Hi there,
>
> So, during college, I used to take ephedra diet pills. I did this for about 4 years straight, every day, without breaks. When I stopped, I plunged into my first real "depressive" episode -- back then, I didn't really know what depression was, so I never made the connection between my mood and the ephedra. And I wasn't feeling that "great" or satisfied with my life shall we say when on the ephedra. Nonetheless, 2 months after getting off of ephedra, I was on Effexor.
>
> That was more than 5 years ago. Since then, i've been through the ringer. Tried probably 20 psychiatric meds, rTMS, ECT, years of therapy, etc.
>
> It finally dawned on me...maybe, just maybe, I should try ephedra again. Perhaps, for better or for worse, taking ephedra for that long, at such a time in my life (18 - 22 years of age) when my brain was still developing, made some permanent changes to it. Maybe ephedra, at appropriate dosages, might be teh most effective antidepressant / adhd treatment for me?
>
> Does anyone have any experience with using ephedra as an AD? Any advice?
>
> I'm at my wits end. My life has been one sad story after another the past 5 years, more squandered opportunity than I care to mention...it would fill up all of psychobabble if I started to.
>
> I can't take this anymore. These drug cocktails, this mood instability, these side effects...I just don't know what to do.
>
> I've never tried ephedra since that day I gave it up over 5 years ago, and i'm considering it now. Maybe it's as simple as that.Hy Deneb and all,
I have about the same story as yours:I started to use Ephedra (In fact ECA stack - ephedra, caffeine, aspirin) about 10 years ago, when I was in college and training hard to be an top professional climber.Reading magazines and stuff about nutrition, supplements, diets, etc, I found interesting the ECA.Dieting hard and training like hell.Ephedrine sent me in a state of relaxation, focus and commitment that I never had.After 1 year i lost 40 pounds and I was indeed in the shape of my life.That was the good thing, the bad one was that I lost way too much weight for my height, muscles and fat, I began to feel nervous,slept only 5 hours for a couple of months, hypomania like, but with some slight differences:I realised that the crankiness was abnormal, so the energy and focus was not really mine(or they was but I suffered from ADD/ADHD).I was exhausted phisically and mentally from starving and wishing to be thinner and fitter(I followed therapy later and my shrink said that was something from my childhood, hating the way I looked, no matter how thin I was).One day I crashed really bad.
From that day I experienced social phobia, panic attacks low self-esteem and all the stuff.After 3 months of staying in bed, eating and sleeping 24/7, was hospitalized and dx/ed with OCD and later with TRD.Years of treatment (10 to name)and never came back to my pre-ephedrine state of happyness, calm, focus, contend and ambition.Now I sufer from mild to severe depression, anhedonia, brain fog, maybe some borderline personality.Even when I accomplish something really important I feel nothing.Training never sent me on that "feelin'good man" state.I train because I know that I suppose to like that, for muscle tone,and to shed some pounds.Some years ago I tried Ephedra and it bring back the normality, instantly got rid of anhedonia,and felt the good ol years coming back.The drawback is that I developed habit forcing me to increase the dose.And it really taxed my adrenals,already fired from anxiety and panic.Not an option on the long run.Maybe we fried our endorphinic and adrenal receptors which never recovered.Sorry for this long post, I'm very interested if someone with the same background totally recovered with stimulants or something else (but not serotonin reuptakers).Not so hopefully now...
Posted by Eevie on January 29, 2010, at 15:06:41
In reply to Ephedra / Ephedrine for depression / ADHD, posted by uncouth on July 23, 2009, at 19:16:51
Hi, I was amazed when I came across these two posts. I had been taking st john wort for depression, havung previously got some eph shipped in. I decided that the sjw wasn't working and stopped. I have been in the depts of despair for months. I came across an article which referred to 5-htp for depression, for which i had ticked all the boxes. I bought some and haven't seen much improvement. After reading your site and posts I realised I had another option and started taking eph again, just 1 a day and it has made all the difference! I can communicate and attend social thingies....only a bit, but better than it was!
What i want to ask is... i thought i had read that eph caused depressions and thoughts of death...not helped one get out of it!! can anyone help?
x
Posted by desolationrower on February 2, 2010, at 3:43:41
In reply to Re: Ephedra / Ephedrine for depression / ADHD, posted by Eevie on January 29, 2010, at 15:06:41
> What i want to ask is... i thought i had read that eph caused depressions and thoughts of death...not helped one get out of it!! can anyone help?
> xpublishers have newspapers to sell, and moral panic makes for good stories. if you combine congenital heart defect + extreme heat + intense exercise and then add ephedrine, there was a death i think. people also die from lighting. it is a good useful drug, but also a good villain.
-d/r
Posted by Deneb on February 2, 2010, at 7:25:42
In reply to Re: Ephedra / Ephedrine for depression / ADHD, posted by Eevie on January 29, 2010, at 15:06:41
Hello Eevie!
Welcome to Psycho-Babble. I've never heard of ephedrine for depression before. I'm glad it helps you. Ephedrine is a stimulant right? I've read stimulants can help depression, but there might be a crash afterwards.
Deneb
Posted by Eevie on February 2, 2010, at 15:26:59
In reply to Re: Ephedra / Ephedrine for depression / ADHD, posted by Deneb on February 2, 2010, at 7:25:42
Hi d/r and Deneb,
Thanks for the replies. I m only taking a very small amount and am aiming for not every day use since reading that the body can build up a fast resistance. I did think very carefully about taking it in the first place, I considered it for months before and after buying it. In amongst everything, I did read that eph should be avoided by those with depression because it can worsen the feelings. At the time i wasn't depressed and thought I never had been and didn't really take depression itself seriously!
x
Posted by vagirl on May 28, 2011, at 9:13:13
In reply to Re: Ephedra / Ephedrine for depression / ADHD, posted by j9adhd+ on October 26, 2009, at 6:58:51
This is the end of the thread.
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