![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 8 of 8. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by BrainDamage on April 5, 2011, at 10:12:43
"The brain is much too complicated and intertwined to make a general assumption that if cholinergic things make you feel worse then you need something anticholinergic."
Firstly a Thank You to everyone who posted!
In response to Blueberry's point:
You do have a good point about not jumping to conclusions about whats going on in "The Brain", based on one or two response(s) to Meds/Supplements.
It is interesting that you respond badly to things that increase Serotonin levels.
Having said that, there is a great deal of Evidence that Excess Acetyl-choline is implicated in mood & neurological disorders.
For example Parkinson's patients have increased Acetyl-choline levels
Posted by mtdewcmu on April 5, 2011, at 12:02:43
In reply to Continuing Acytel-Choline discusion, posted by BrainDamage on April 5, 2011, at 10:12:43
Since a lot of antidepressants have anticholinergic properties, I have wondered if they might be contributing to the antidepressant effects. It's conceivable that since they have come "free" and cause side effects, that people haven't noticed that they are beneficial. But, it's a long shot. It seems like every class of drug has been offered as a potential AD, even a beta-blocker like pindolol. Drugs like atropine and its derivatives are so old, that someone almost certainly would have noticed if they worked for depression.
Posted by linkadge on April 5, 2011, at 14:24:34
In reply to Re: Continuing Acytel-Choline discusion, posted by mtdewcmu on April 5, 2011, at 12:02:43
>Having said that, there is a great deal of >Evidence that Excess Acetyl-choline is >implicated in mood & neurological disorders.
>For example Parkinson's patients have increased >Acetyl-choline levelsI didn't know about that. Its true that parkinsons patients sometimes use anticholinergics to improve certain symptoms
but this is because anticholinergics indirectly promote dopamine release (in certain brain regions).However, its much more complex than that. Consider nicotine. Nicotine is a acetycholine agonist, yet it increases dopamine release and has theraputic effect in certain parkinsons cases.
There are many acetycholine recpetors with opposing actions. I believe the muscarinic M1 receptors have been the most studied in terms of depression.
The flinders senstive mouse line (a rat model of depression) has higher levels / affinity for the m1 receptor. It does not have elevated levels of acetycholine per se however.
Stress can increase the sentivity of the m1 receptor towards acetycholine.
Linkadge
Posted by BrainDamage on April 5, 2011, at 15:05:40
In reply to Re: Continuing Acytel-Choline discusion, posted by linkadge on April 5, 2011, at 14:24:34
> The flinders senstive mouse line (a rat model of depression) has higher levels / affinity for the m1 receptor.
>
Thanks for the Info Linkadge
By starting this thread I was really hoping to stimulate discussion........Obviously Acetyl-Choline isn't in itself "bad"
Alzheimer sufferers have to little Acetyl-CholineEven people who get relief with Anti-choligenic complain of poor memory & slow thoughts e.c.t.
I love coffee, which increases Acetyl-Choline
Having said that other things that increase choline do make me rapidly depressed.
For example Huperzine-A & Centrophaxine
Posted by linkadge on April 5, 2011, at 17:21:47
In reply to Re: Continuing Acytel-Choline discusion, posted by BrainDamage on April 5, 2011, at 15:05:40
>Obviously Acetyl-Choline isn't in itself "bad"
>Alzheimer sufferers have to little Acetyl-CholineAgain, I wouldn't really think of alzheimers as low acetycholine just as I wouldn't think of parkinsons as low dopamine. Alzheimers is a complex disease. There appear to be cholinergic deficits (as there are significant deficits in other neurotransmitter systems), but could be due to things like damage to cholinergic fibers or loss of producing cells. Also alzheimers is often comorbid with depression - which from a simplistic high/low acetylcholine model, would not make sense. Wouln't low acetycholine make the patients less depressed?
>Even people who get relief with Anti-choligenic >complain of poor memory & slow thoughts e.c.t.
Yes, and the cholinergic overdrive (if this exists) could simply be a result of a different biochemical imballance - ie. low monoamine transmission? low endocannabanoid transmission?
>I love coffee, which increases Acetyl-Choline
>Having said that other things that increase >choline do make me rapidly depressed.Coffee increases the release of acetycholine in certain brain regions. But again, its not a simple raise / lower effect. I think that long term high dose caffine use can depleate cholinergic stores.
Linkadge
Posted by sigismund on April 5, 2011, at 17:50:17
In reply to Re: Continuing Acytel-Choline discusion, posted by BrainDamage on April 5, 2011, at 15:05:40
Centrophenoxine is something else, isn't it.
Once and once only for me. But it was really strong. A strong cold feeling.
Posted by desolationrower on April 5, 2011, at 21:20:14
In reply to Re: Continuing Acytel-Choline discusion, posted by sigismund on April 5, 2011, at 17:50:17
> > Having said that there is a great deal of Evidence that Excess Acetyl-choline is implicated in mood & neurological disorders.
> > For example Parkinson's patients have increased Acetyl-choline levelsthey have normal acetylcholine, but reduced DA. The balance of the two tilts toward ACH.
> If pure anticholinergics were useful in psychiatry, they would most likely already be in use.
they are in use.
>alz&depression
lots of other factors, like both caused by inflammation, lack of lithium, etc
-d/r
Posted by Phillipa on April 5, 2011, at 23:11:52
In reply to Re: Continuing Acytel-Choline discusion, posted by linkadge on April 5, 2011, at 17:21:47
Parkinson's noted for low dopamine. Isn't requip a med for such? Phillipa
This is the end of the thread.
Psycho-Babble Medication | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.