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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by floatingbridge on March 1, 2011, at 11:46:06
In reply to Re: Amphetamine Use Linked To Parkinson's Disease » floatingbridge, posted by Phillipa on March 1, 2011, at 11:18:38
Phillipa,
He called, maybe because he expected I might panic if I stumbled across it. He said it's all over. We have a history: he's either horrified or delighted by my readings.
And Link, darn good question of yours.
Posted by floatingbridge on March 1, 2011, at 11:46:57
In reply to Re: Amphetamine Use Linked To Parkinson's Disease » floatingbridge, posted by Phillipa on March 1, 2011, at 11:18:38
Phillipa,
He called, maybe because he expected I might panic if I stumbled across it. He said it's all over. We have a history: he's either horrified or delighted by my readings.
And Link, darn good question of yours.
Posted by Phillipa on March 1, 2011, at 12:46:09
In reply to Re: Amphetamine Use Linked To Parkinson's Disease » Phillipa, posted by floatingbridge on March 1, 2011, at 11:46:57
FB seriously it's all over? I have to see dermatologist possible nose skin cancer so was kind of preoccupied with fear. But I will give this search are you planning on continuing with the med? If what Link says it correct it really doesn't matter does it. I don't know. He's a great doc to call you I've not heard of any doing this before physical or pdoc. You have a great doc. Love Phillipa
Posted by Phillipa on March 1, 2011, at 12:52:00
In reply to Re: Amphetamine Use Linked To Parkinson's Disease » floatingbridge, posted by Phillipa on March 1, 2011, at 12:46:09
Quick google confirms above. So many people could be affected if true. Love Phillipa
Posted by former poster on March 2, 2011, at 23:54:59
In reply to Amphetamine Use Linked To Parkinson's Disease, posted by Phillipa on February 28, 2011, at 19:30:55
I wonder why it took 60 years to come out with this info? Benzidrine was used by many in the 40's. Maybe its back to Methylphenidate (Ritalin) for me? It's one of the most extensively researched drugs in history. Thanks FDA for doing a great job..
Posted by floatingbridge on March 3, 2011, at 2:40:54
In reply to Re: Amphetamine Use Linked To Parkinson's Disease » Phillipa, posted by former poster on March 2, 2011, at 23:54:59
FP
Ritalin? What's it like?
I'm now down to 30mg today.
Posted by Phillipa on March 3, 2011, at 19:35:58
In reply to Re: Amphetamine Use Linked To Parkinson's Disease » Phillipa, posted by former poster on March 2, 2011, at 23:54:59
FP more to come as now motrin or something haven't read newsletter yet is supposed to protect from Parkinson's so maybe take that and dexadrine? Phillipa
Posted by former poster on March 3, 2011, at 21:37:51
In reply to Re: Amphetamine Use Linked To Parkinson's Disease » former poster, posted by floatingbridge on March 3, 2011, at 2:40:54
Ritalin made me drive fast, talk fast and have a short temper. Also relieved some depression, made me able to focus but usually caused more anxiety. I felt like it made me more outgoing, but in a nerdy way. Dextroamphetamine is a smoother, calmer stimulant and more effective on social anxiety.
Posted by former poster on March 3, 2011, at 21:47:23
In reply to Re: Amphetamine Use Linked To Parkinson's Disease » former poster, posted by Phillipa on March 3, 2011, at 19:35:58
I read that about Motrin (Ibuprofin) too. Along with several other substances. Strange as it may seem, nicotine can prevent the dopamine depleting diseases. Parkinsons scares me because my Grandmother died from it.
Posted by floatingbridge on March 3, 2011, at 22:11:48
In reply to Re: Amphetamine Use Linked To Parkinson's Disease » Phillipa, posted by former poster on March 3, 2011, at 21:47:23
So Motrin? Will Google. Interesting.
Took last dexedrine today; my 15mg spansule.
Pdoc says 3 day wash for dex. I see him on Tuesday, and he'll give me emsam then.
He asked me if I was sure I knew what I was doing. Absolutely not, I said, --are you serious? He had to laugh at that.
Motrin, yeah?
What about emsam (segilene, sp?)?
Posted by former poster on March 3, 2011, at 22:35:39
In reply to Re: Amphetamine Use Linked To Parkinson's Disease, posted by floatingbridge on March 3, 2011, at 22:11:48
Emsam is part of my cocktail. I am looking for a study that might indicate Emsam have neuroprotective / anti-parkinsons property's like most of the MAOI's. Emsam feels almost the same as Dextro. Supposedly its metabolized into amphetamine. But causes me a lot of side effects I never got with Dex.
Posted by floatingbridge on March 3, 2011, at 23:52:32
In reply to Re: Amphetamine Use Linked To Parkinson's Disease » floatingbridge, posted by former poster on March 3, 2011, at 22:35:39
Hi FP,
Your experience is interesting. Dexedrine 'stopped' working a while back.
I had heard somewhere that maoi's were broken down into metabolites (right word) with amphetamine-like qualities. Not being scientific-minded, I couldn't
recall the references, nor explain that to docs.That maoi's could provide some neuroprotection and some stimulation
would be grand. Dex was what had helped me the most to date.Thanks.
Hope you find that study.
Posted by Phillipa on March 4, 2011, at 0:31:30
In reply to Re: Amphetamine Use Linked To Parkinson's Disease » former poster, posted by floatingbridge on March 3, 2011, at 23:52:32
FB so ensam it is I do think it will work for you. The motrin a mystery to me posted a link bottom of page and since Linkage also go a good response he posted to motrin like I did that time hoping he will respond been googling and can't find what I want on it. Love Phillipa
Posted by former poster on March 4, 2011, at 12:06:55
In reply to Re: Amphetamine Use Linked To Parkinson's Disease » former poster, posted by floatingbridge on March 3, 2011, at 23:52:32
Yeah Dex helped me the most too.
Posted by floatingbridge on March 4, 2011, at 12:45:51
In reply to Re: Amphetamine Use Linked To Parkinson's Disease » floatingbridge, posted by Phillipa on March 4, 2011, at 0:31:30
Phillipa,
This may be irrelevant, but motrin has been the only nsaid that I could 'feel' enter my system. That could be separate from analgesic quality, and I say that because it does not help my back pain (bone on bone?)
So a motrin a day?
Dad took aspirin a day; then docs said, oh. Take baby aspirin. By then he was almost deaf. (Could have been his age.)
Minimum dosage suggested in that link?
Posted by linkadge on March 4, 2011, at 15:29:19
In reply to Re: Amphetamine Use Linked To Parkinson's Disease » Phillipa, posted by floatingbridge on March 4, 2011, at 12:45:51
dopamine depletion is not what causes parkinsons, its destruction to the dopamine produicing and recieving neurons.
Coffee can deplete dopamine but actually reduces the risk of parkinsons.
Linkadge
Posted by floatingbridge on March 4, 2011, at 15:36:48
In reply to Re: Amphetamine Use Linked To Parkinson's Disease, posted by linkadge on March 4, 2011, at 15:29:19
So is that what study hypothesizes? Destruction?
Posted by Phillipa on March 4, 2011, at 19:58:17
In reply to Re: Amphetamine Use Linked To Parkinson's Disease » Phillipa, posted by floatingbridge on March 4, 2011, at 12:45:51
Floatingbridge strange isn't it as same here. It was 600mg for 24 hours that for me felt so different and I felt good mentally. Love Phillipa
Posted by iforgotmypassword on March 8, 2011, at 14:38:01
In reply to Amphetamine Use Linked To Parkinson's Disease, posted by Phillipa on February 28, 2011, at 19:30:55
AMP interferes with VMAT2, and reverses the safe storage of DA in vesicles, and this is how AMP increases DA; but DAT is left mostly unchecked and begins transporting elevated amounts of DA back into the unguarded intracellular environment where its breakdown is quite toxic and creates reactive oxygen species, killing cells. it is theorised that this is what causes the intractable apathy, and blown executive function, proper inhibition/disinhibition in those having dealt with sufficient AMP and meth-AMP addiction; but that somehow functioning of mesocortical and mesolimbic pathways go first, rather than what is assumed in parkinson's where nigrostriatal pathway degeneration is what's focused on.
seemingly out of place but important: while indeed i am saying there may be a "level of priority" in how the damage takes place in differing situations, an extreme black and white form of this thinking i think is improperly taken for granted due to professional ignorance of certain types of symptoms in medicine and our right-wing-libertarian-slanted culture that sees certain problems as moral before neurological; the reality that many of us personally may be subject to here on this forum is that this thinking perpetually dooms people with potential dopaminergic dysfunction OF ANY TYPE that should be explored, and neglects the humanitarian goals we associate with medicine. if medicine is to be credibly humanitarian, that is, i guess.
so to clarify, i don't think it can be seen as having a very selective effect on the mesocortical and mesolimbic pathwayss, it still could not in anyway be healthy for the nigrostriatal pathway, and i think this is what they may be seeing, also consider the extreme movement effects of AMP overuse short term and long term, "meth-mouth", etc.
controlling intracellular DA by interfering with DAT is why MPH, despite often feeling more agitating and thus making a subject sometimes feel that it is more unhealthy and 'dirtier' at effective doses, MPH is proposed to be neuroprotective and certainly seems to be in animal models, including as a preventative against AMP related damage.
(i apoligise for the total lack of order. as usual i have too much trouble with this, and if i am going to send anything at all i have to keep as is.)
Posted by iforgotmypassword on March 8, 2011, at 15:24:33
In reply to relevant diff betw MPH and AMP is the transporter, posted by iforgotmypassword on March 8, 2011, at 14:38:01
> " the reality that many of us personally may be subject to here on this forum is that this thinking perpetually dooms people with potential dopaminergic dysfunction OF ANY TYPE that should be explored, and neglects the humanitarian goals we associate with medicine. if medicine is to be credibly humanitarian, that is, i guess."
bad editing in parts of sentences, i don't mean to say that people are subject to this philosophy here, but rather that people here are subject to it in society, i edited in what i was saying incorrectly, and in the wrong place. there are probably other things that sound off, i am really not doing well.
Posted by linkadge on March 8, 2011, at 15:33:37
In reply to relevant diff betw MPH and AMP is the transporter, posted by iforgotmypassword on March 8, 2011, at 14:38:01
First of all, this is simply one study, and it is by no way conclusive. Like mentioned, the study did not find a unanimous increase in parkinsons in amphetamine users (i.e. no increased incidence was found in those using the drugs for weight loss). I would like to see more studies confirming this finding, and which drugs, at which doses.
>is theorised that this is what causes the >intractable apathy, and blown executive >function, proper inhibition/disinhibition in >those having dealt with sufficient AMP and meth->AMP addiction
There is no evidence that use of amphetamine in theraputic doses causes these problems.
>but that somehow functioning of mesocortical and >mesolimbic pathways go first, rather than what >is assumed in parkinson's where nigrostriatal >pathway degeneration is what's focused on.Says who?
Also keep in mind, the brain has its own version of amphetamine (PEA). PEA acts identically to amphetamine in terms of transporter reversal and monoamine release. High doses of PEA can cause neurotoxicity and psychosis just like with amphetamines. Obviously there is a theraputic, physiological level of PEA. PEA has been shown (in many studies) to be low in ADHD.
My personal thoughts are that amphetamine also has a window of theraputic effect. The study posted does not really focus on the theraputic use of amphetamines in ADHD. By not specifically studying ADHD, there really is no good control. I.e. in which cases was amphetamine abused vs. used? Also, isn't it possible that an individual with dopamine system dysfunction might be more prone to use amphetamines in the first place?
Some studies show that theraptic use of amphetamines can actually *enhance* motor recovery in stroke. Also, in animal models of ADHD, amphetamines are trophic to dopaminergic pathways in the prefrontal cortex.
I would still be cautious about implicating theraptic use of amphetamines in parkinsons development. I don't really think we have the data to suggest that yet.
Linkadge
Posted by Brainbeard on March 25, 2011, at 5:54:20
In reply to relevant diff betw MPH and AMP is the transporter, posted by iforgotmypassword on March 8, 2011, at 14:38:01
Wow iforgotmypassword (great name). Very cool information.
It's indeed counterintuitive that methylphenidate would be less dirty than dex. I'm in the process of switching from dex to MPH myself, for several reasons - oddly, dex makes me less social, while MPH makes me enjoy social interactions tremendously. Also, dex slows my cognition down at work, I think because it tends to make me anxious in non-routine situations and focus on details too much, losing overview.
Dex works well for praying, and can deepen and intensify things I really care a lot about. MPH makes me feel almost aggressively independent emotionally and is much more cerebral than dex.
Neurotoxicity is an important point with dex. Ive heard too many stories of long-term users who have become tolerant to dex and find themselves apathetic and without concentration without their dex helping them anymore.
Posted by mtdewcmu on March 27, 2011, at 16:58:02
In reply to Re: Amphetamine Use Linked To Parkinson's Disease, posted by linkadge on March 1, 2011, at 10:36:46
Where are you getting the information that the study dealt with amphetamine use in ADHD? It's not safe to conclude that because it excluded use in obesity that the rest of it was mainly for ADHD. Amphetamines were easy to obtain for any use until at least the 1970s (I tried to find more specific dates, but the Google results seemed to contradict each other and I don't have a book handy), and they were widely used by the military up through the Vietnam War. So I would not attribute the bulk of the non-obesity use to ADHD. Plus, I think that widespread prescribing of amphetamines for ADHD is a more recent phenomenon, especially for adults, so it shouldn't have played a big role in this study.
> I would consider this research very preliminary.
>
> Also note, the study only found an increased risk of parkinsons when the amphetamines were used in ADHD, not in obesity.
>
> Perhaps in ADHD, there is an increased risk of parkinsons to begin with (due to some sort of fundamental dopaminergic system deficiancy / damage). I.e. is ADHD an independant risk factor for parkinsons?
>
> If the amphetamine does cause parkinsons, does this extend to methylphenidate?
>
>
>
>
Posted by mtdewcmu on March 27, 2011, at 17:16:43
In reply to Re: relevant diff betw MPH and AMP is the transporter, posted by linkadge on March 8, 2011, at 15:33:37
> >is theorised that this is what causes the >intractable apathy, and blown executive >function, proper inhibition/disinhibition in >those having dealt with sufficient AMP and meth->AMP addiction
>
> There is no evidence that use of amphetamine in theraputic doses causes these problems.
>Yes. The dose makes the poison.
> My personal thoughts are that amphetamine also has a window of theraputic effect. The study posted does not really focus on the theraputic use of amphetamines in ADHD. By not specifically studying ADHD, there really is no good control. I.e. in which cases was amphetamine abused vs. used? Also, isn't it possible that an individual with dopamine system dysfunction might be more prone to use amphetamines in the first place?
>Exactly. One of my personal hobbyhorses is the excessive attention paid to these sorts of observational epidemiological studies. This kind of observational study is fundamentally unable to distinguish cause from effect, and is prone to all kinds of spurious interpretations. You really need to follow up with a more rigorous experiment to prove any kind of causality. Unfortunately, it's hard to design studies to rigorously test for remote effects like Parkinsonism delayed by decades, so we will probably be in a position of ignorance for quite a while. But history is full of examples of observational studies producing spurious conclusions, so we shouldn't overreact. Parkinson's is caused by cell death, so you would expect that you ought to be able to see the damage occurring in real time if you can examine the brain, probably post-mortem, but the studies could be done in animals. In fact, one would expect that these kinds of studies have already been done.
Posted by Phillipa on March 27, 2011, at 20:14:15
In reply to Re: relevant diff betw MPH and AMP is the transporter, posted by mtdewcmu on March 27, 2011, at 17:16:43
Didn't write it just posted glad got a discussion going. Phillipa
This is the end of the thread.
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