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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by morgan miller on November 9, 2010, at 15:24:53
In reply to Re: One person's argument for Escitalopram, posted by linkadge on November 9, 2010, at 6:14:44
> I have friends who failed every ssri and then respond to something like St. John's Wort.
>
> Tell me this, zoloft is supposedly a "first line treatment" for depression. In head to head trials it performed a little worse than SJW. Why is SJW not a first line depression treatment then?
>
>
> Linkadge
>I agree that SJW should be a first line treatment fro mild to moderate depression, but I'm not sure about major depression. It may help in some cases of major depression, especially at higher than normal doses, but from what I have read and experienced(anecdotal), SJW is not as effective as in treating major depression as pharmaceutical drugs are.
Can you post the links for these trials? I'm interested in reading them. I think we always need to take into account bias and flaws in trials. Just like there may have been these issues with the studies on Lexapro and other big pharma drugs. Were these studies done in Germany where SJW is the first line of treatment for depression? Were these studies funded by the companies that make either Kira or Perika?
I'm also wondering if drop out due to side effects influenced the outcome of these studies. Many people drop out due to side effects. If they stuck with a drug a little longer and they found the right dose, the drug may have ended up being very effective without unbearable side effects. If the side effects were flat out unbearable, I don't blame anyone for dropping out of their trial.
Posted by morgan miller on November 9, 2010, at 15:34:33
In reply to Re: One person's argument for Escitalopram, posted by morgan miller on November 9, 2010, at 15:24:53
I changed my mind on major depression and SJW. SJW should be used as a first line of treatment in all types of depression, except for those that are severely suicidal, then lithium or an MAOI should be used. My reason-if SJW happens to relieve their depression symptoms as much as 70 percent, it is definitely worth taking given it's side effect profile and other potential health benefiting compounds. If the a depression sufferer does not try SJW first, they may have never known if such a wonderful natural drug would have been a good fit for them. Also, it is possible, at least for the unlucky ones, that trials with powerful pharmaceutical antidepressants like SSRIs may make one less responsive to treatments like SJW. I would have loved to have known about the superior options for SJW years ago, though, I did feel pretty damn good and had a great time on Zoloft for several years. And, for months after stopping Zoloft, I didn't feel any lingering negative effects like cognitive impairment or worsening anxiety like many others due after they stop an SSRI. I think working out religiously and getting what I needed in my diet(omega 3s included) during and after Zoloft may have played a role in maintaining the health of my brain.
Posted by Phillipa on November 9, 2010, at 20:04:16
In reply to Re: One person's argument for Escitalopram, posted by morgan miller on November 9, 2010, at 15:34:33
Morgan seriously about the SJW? My nephew said it's great for anxiety. Phillipa
Posted by morgan miller on November 9, 2010, at 20:47:34
In reply to Re: One person's argument for Escitalopram » morgan miller, posted by Phillipa on November 9, 2010, at 20:04:16
> Morgan seriously about the SJW? My nephew said it's great for anxiety. Phillipa
I think SJW is a great alternative and very effective for many. But so far, it does not hold a candle to what SSRIs have done for me. I've just lowered my dose a few days ago and will give Serofin(New Chapter's full spectrum SJW) another few weeks before I go back to a psychiatrist and discuss a pharmaceutical antidepressant.
Posted by Phillipa on November 9, 2010, at 21:33:41
In reply to Re: One person's argument for Escitalopram, posted by morgan miller on November 9, 2010, at 20:47:34
Morgan you know I added 5mg of lexapro to my 50mg of luvox last night and feel horrible. Everything seems so boring. Will cut back and then off in the next two nights. Benzos let me sleep too much. Bioidenticals still on the wall as to keep taking or now. But the 50mg of luvox over 9 years and can't cut down. Addictive for sure. But can't take SJW without being off all meds? I don't know. Phillipa
Posted by morgan miller on November 9, 2010, at 21:53:08
In reply to Re: One person's argument for Escitalopram » morgan miller, posted by Phillipa on November 9, 2010, at 21:33:41
You shouldn't try SJW with other antidepressants. Some have tried low doses of SJW with their antidepressant with some success.
I thought you had been taking Lexapro with Luvox. Maybe you have been taking 2.5 mg Lexapro. If you haven't tried 2.5 mg, you may want to.
So you have the hormones for HRT but you haven't tried them yet? If you have them and your doctor is supervising and monitoring things, I see no reason to not try them for a while.
Posted by Phillipa on November 9, 2010, at 22:01:43
In reply to Re: One person's argument for Escitalopram, posted by morgan miller on November 9, 2010, at 21:53:08
Morgan for two months took 2.5 to 5mg of lexapro with luvox 50mg. Nothing so stopped the lexapro. Felt really horrible two days ago so took 2.5mg of lexapro with luvox 50 and had a good day next day as medicate at night. Then last night went to 5mg of lexapro with 50mg luvox and today horrible. Of course still 5mg valium and lmg of xanax at bedtime. And the hormones bioidentical monitored by an ob-gyn now an antiaging doc who does blood hormone testing and then prescribes based on results. The compounded creams twice a day. Two years now. Only thing noticed is sleep more. Since have the osteoporosis and won't do biophosphinates and the dentist today said don't trying the new chapters bone grow and bios. What do you feel? Phillipa and thanks for responding
Posted by morgan miller on November 9, 2010, at 23:58:02
In reply to Re: One person's argument for Escitalopram » morgan miller, posted by Phillipa on November 9, 2010, at 22:01:43
The dentist? Really? I don't think your dentist knows what the f*ck he/she is talking about. Did they say why?
The New Chapter product is Bone Strength. Or were you thinking of Garden of Life Grow Bone. Grow Bone is one of the best and maybe the best bone supplement on the market.
Posted by Phillipa on November 10, 2010, at 18:29:21
In reply to Re: One person's argument for Escitalopram, posted by morgan miller on November 9, 2010, at 23:58:02
If grow bone is the one that offers free dexa scans I heard that there were problems. False advertising or something? Visit Team Inspire on National Osteoposis chat board many nutritional products have good links on them. Very nice people there also. Phillipa
Posted by Phillipa on November 10, 2010, at 18:31:25
In reply to Re: One person's argument for Escitalopram » morgan miller, posted by Phillipa on November 9, 2010, at 22:01:43
Morgan meant that the dentist said stay away from biophosphinates horrible problems. Phillipa
Posted by morgan miller on November 10, 2010, at 20:45:18
In reply to Re: One person's argument for Escitalopram, posted by Phillipa on November 10, 2010, at 18:31:25
I see, thought he told you not to take New Chapter Bone Strength.
What are the issues with Vitamin Code Grow Bone? Maybe I will check out the site. We sell that product at the organic market I work at.
Posted by ed_uk2010 on November 11, 2010, at 14:51:20
In reply to Re: One person's argument for Escitalopram, posted by Phillipa on November 10, 2010, at 18:31:25
>the dentist said stay away from biophosphinates horrible problems.
The bisphosphonates remain a useful treatment for osteoporosis. I think it's important to bear in mind that HRT has been associated with many adverse effects. The trend towards using bio-identical hormones is interesting but it does not eliminate the risk of side effects. High levels of estrogen are not natural after the menopause - there may be an increased risk of breast cancer and other serious illnesses.
Posted by Phillipa on November 11, 2010, at 19:23:46
In reply to Re: One person's argument for Escitalopram » Phillipa, posted by morgan miller on November 10, 2010, at 20:45:18
Morgan from the web I think it was something to do with those free dexa scans and something else. Maybe try google. I'm thinking I read a link on the national osteoporosis board????? Phillipa
Posted by Phillipa on November 11, 2010, at 19:34:06
In reply to Re: One person's argument for Escitalopram » Phillipa, posted by ed_uk2010 on November 11, 2010, at 14:51:20
Ed I'm being treated by an ob-gyn who feels that bioidenticals after blood testing and levels. That the compounded hormones are fine. There is risk in all meds and even foods. I chose this option as being the least dangerous of the options. Visit same board I mentioned to Morgan and see real replies. When I questioned a doctor about reclast infusion that was supposed to get he got very defensive and fired me with a certified letter saying I didn't trust the med as questioned the mechanism. It is also a biophosphinate very popular here at one time although since the deaths and fractured bones, and bone spurs have been reported to the FDA oral or IV biophosphinates are not the first line of treatment for many. Osteonecrosis of the Jaw is more common in those who have had cancer but I was told by the dentist not to take the meds. So I never will. Phillipa
Posted by Hombre on November 12, 2010, at 0:01:25
In reply to Re: One person's argument for Escitalopram » Phillipa, posted by ed_uk2010 on November 11, 2010, at 14:51:20
Sorry to go off topic a little, but I wanted to mention that in my research I've learned that the physiological functions associated with the "Kidneys" in Chinese medicine are related to both bone health and anxiety. That makes sense, since the anatomical kidneys do produce hormones related to calcium balance and stress-response. The Chinese medicine concept of the Kidneys also relates to sex hormones as well.
At the very least, it seems like there are links between bones, neurotransmitters and sex hormones, but you'll never arrive at that if you focus too much on one specific system...which is medical science's specialty.
Posted by Phillipa on November 12, 2010, at 0:09:23
In reply to Re: One person's argument for Escitalopram, posted by Hombre on November 12, 2010, at 0:01:25
I guess it's homeostasis of the whole body. Phillipa
Posted by ed_uk2010 on November 12, 2010, at 14:38:20
In reply to Re: One person's argument for Escitalopram » ed_uk2010, posted by Phillipa on November 11, 2010, at 19:34:06
>Ed I'm being treated by an ob-gyn who feels that bioidenticals after blood testing and levels. That the compounded hormones are fine.
Many standard HRT products contain bio-identical hormones. EstroGel is an example. Bio-identical or not, a problem with all of these products is that high estrogen levels are not natural beyond a certain age. This is why the risk of breast cancer is elevated. Other potential risks include ovarian cancer, DVT and stroke.
>I chose this option as being the least dangerous of the options.
I wouldn't say that HRT is safer than standard bisphosphonate therapy eg. alendronate 70mg once weekly. The risks are simply different. I understand that bio-identical HRT is very much in fashion at the moment, but this does not change the fact that bisphosphonates remain a first-line treatment for many.
Posted by Phillipa on November 12, 2010, at 21:42:20
In reply to Re: One person's argument for Escitalopram » Phillipa, posted by ed_uk2010 on November 12, 2010, at 14:38:20
Ed I guess we have to agree to disagree on this. This is what my doctors feel is the best for me including my endocrinologist. He also is a friend of the doc that treats with the bios. This doc was in charge of the osteoporosis clinic at the major hospital here the bioidentical doc. He also likes calcium with the bioidenticals. I know lots of controversy now on calcium too. PJxx ps who knows when a better med comes out might change. Forteo is being used a lot and Denosaub too but risks and expense.
Posted by ed_uk2010 on November 13, 2010, at 10:29:48
In reply to Re: One person's argument for Escitalopram » ed_uk2010, posted by Phillipa on November 12, 2010, at 21:42:20
>Ed I guess we have to agree to disagree on this.
I'm not claiming to know which treatment is best for you, I just don't think you should be so quick to dismiss bisphosphonates.
Posted by Phillipa on November 13, 2010, at 19:44:25
In reply to Re: One person's argument for Escitalopram » Phillipa, posted by ed_uk2010 on November 13, 2010, at 10:29:48
Ed just send you a link to a message board. Hope you read some of it will be curious to know what you think. Love PJx
Posted by morgan miller on November 14, 2010, at 13:26:38
In reply to Re: One person's argument for Escitalopram » ed_uk2010, posted by Phillipa on November 13, 2010, at 19:44:25
Phillipa, are you taking DIM? DIM increases healthy estrogen metabolism more towards the protective 2-hydroxy metabolite and away from the more dangerous 16-hydroxy metabolite. Evidently, supplementing with DIM when doing HRT may be very beneficial and protect against potential harmful long term effects of HRT. DIM is produced when we eat cruciferous vegetables but we would have to eat entirely too much to get the therapeutic effects attainable from taking a good DIM supplement.
Morgan
Posted by Phillipa on November 14, 2010, at 19:55:47
In reply to DIM for better estrogen metabolism, posted by morgan miller on November 14, 2010, at 13:26:38
Morgan what is DIM? Never heard of it? I know you know your nutritional supplements. Phillipa
Posted by morgan miller on November 14, 2010, at 22:01:56
In reply to Re: DIM for better estrogen metabolism » morgan miller, posted by Phillipa on November 14, 2010, at 19:55:47
DIM is a compound in cruciferous vegetables that can improve estrogen metabolism. In order to get the therapeutic benefits from it, you have to consume an amount that would require eating a ridiculous amount of veggies like broccoli. So, there are DIM supplements that you can take, here is one of them.
Posted by Phillipa on November 14, 2010, at 22:09:58
In reply to Re: DIM for better estrogen metabolism » Phillipa, posted by morgan miller on November 14, 2010, at 22:01:56
Morgan thanks you are always so helpful!!!!! Phillipa
Posted by morgan miller on November 14, 2010, at 23:33:47
In reply to Re: DIM for better estrogen metabolism » morgan miller, posted by Phillipa on November 14, 2010, at 22:09:58
No problem Phillipa
This is the end of the thread.
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