![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 111 to 135 of 142. Go back in thread:
Posted by SLS on September 7, 2010, at 17:14:55
In reply to Re: biology vs psychology, posted by violette on September 7, 2010, at 16:12:48
> SLS:
>
> I'm not interested in the answers to those questions-not because i'm not interested in what you have to say-but because i was hoping YOU would be interested in the answers!That's ironic. I thought that YOU would be interested in the answers to the questions that you yourself asked. So, you are saying that your questions were rhetorical only? Perhaps you didn't like my answers. The answers are mine and not meant to be yours.
> Everyone defends against emotional pain...
Okay. What would you say is my emotional pain? That's right! You couldn't possibly know it because you are not inside me. Neither could you possibly know my historical experiences with psychotherapy or somatic therapies. I feel that you are placing yourself on me. I hope you don't feel that I have been reciprocating. I accept you and your illness as you report them. I am very much at ease with the idea that you are not me and that your mental illness (should there be one) is not mine.
> No more chicken/egg conversations for me
Egg.
> I'm off to swim! Bye!!!
Enjoy your swim. I only wish that I had the mental and physical energy to do such things. We are indeed different.
- Scott
Posted by morgan miller on September 7, 2010, at 17:30:04
In reply to Re: biology vs psychology » violette, posted by SLS on September 7, 2010, at 17:14:55
> > SLS:
> >
> > I'm not interested in the answers to those questions-not because i'm not interested in what you have to say-but because i was hoping YOU would be interested in the answers!
>
> That's ironic. I thought that YOU would be interested in the answers to the questions that you yourself asked. So, you are saying that your questions were rhetorical only? Perhaps you didn't like my answers. The answers are mine and not meant to be yours.
>
> > Everyone defends against emotional pain...
>
> Okay. What would you say is my emotional pain? That's right! You couldn't possibly know it because you are not inside me. Neither could you possibly know my historical experiences with psychotherapy or somatic therapies. I feel that you are placing yourself on me. I hope you don't feel that I have been reciprocating. I accept you and your illness as you report them. I am very much at ease with the idea that you are not me and that your mental illness (should there be one) is not mine.
>
> > No more chicken/egg conversations for me
>
> Egg.
>
> > I'm off to swim! Bye!!!
>
> Enjoy your swim. I only wish that I had the mental and physical energy to do such things. We are indeed different.
>
>
> - Scott
>Scott, I think violette meant to say that we all probably have some things that are psychologically/emotionally embedded in us that we would benefit from working on. I'm not so sure she was necessarily directing the comments she made diractly at you. Nor do I think that here statements were based on assumptions of who you are and what your experience has been. What is wrong with throwing out the possibility that many of us may have built protective walls a long long time ago, long before we may be able to remember exactly what was going on at the time, and these walls may be inhibiting us from being able to make progress in some areas?
I do tend to agree with most everything violette says concerning psychology and it's contributions to the pathogenesis of mental illness, as you may have already guessed.
Morgan
Posted by SLS on September 7, 2010, at 17:41:32
In reply to Re: biology vs psychology, posted by morgan miller on September 7, 2010, at 17:30:04
> I do tend to agree with most everything violette says concerning psychology and it's contributions to the pathogenesis of mental illness, as you may have already guessed.
And what would you guess is my position concerning the contribution of psychosocial factors to mental illness?
Actually, you don't have to guess. I have already demonstrated multiple times in words what my beliefs are. I simply don't understand why you don't acknowledge this.
- Scott
Posted by Dinah on September 7, 2010, at 17:57:46
In reply to Re: disability - Proudfoot - SLS, posted by morgan miller on September 7, 2010, at 17:00:23
I didn't take it personally.
It's just that it's always possible to find imperfections in parenting, and consider that a reason for today's issues. A parent was too distant, or too engulfing. Too strict or too permissive. Depressed or anxious themselves. At some point, one has to begin to wonder whether there is flawed methodology in discovering the cause of anything, or mistaking cause for effect.
Obviously if a parent is abusive physically or emotionally, narcissistic, etc. there will be resulting mental health issues resulting solely from that. But ordinary misattunements are part of the expected range of baby experience, and shouldn't cause severe deficits in adult functioning if experienced by a healthy baby. I tend to think animals (including humans) are designed to be more resilient than that. Or at least that's my opinion.
There has never been a period of history where parenthood is more agonized an activity than it is today, when parents were so laden with instructions on how to parent or not parent. Yet I don't see that mental illness rates are going down significantly. If anything, the stress on parents to do it right probably leads to stress in kids.
I'm not saying that parents' style of parenting don't lead to issues. Of course they do. I just think good enough is good enough.
Posted by Dinah on September 7, 2010, at 18:45:35
In reply to Re: disability - Proudfoot - SLS, posted by morgan miller on September 7, 2010, at 17:00:23
I am a big believer in psychotherapy. I think the world would be way better off if both the mentally ill and the "healthy" went to years of therapy. Self awareness is a good thing.
And I can't tell you the number of times I watch "It's Me or the Dog" and shout "Of *course* your dog acts like a maniac. Can you *hear* yourself?!!!" I feel the same way about parenting...
Posted by morgan miller on September 7, 2010, at 18:52:15
In reply to Re: biology vs psychology » morgan miller, posted by SLS on September 7, 2010, at 17:41:32
> > I do tend to agree with most everything violette says concerning psychology and it's contributions to the pathogenesis of mental illness, as you may have already guessed.
>
> And what would you guess is my position concerning the contribution of psychosocial factors to mental illness?
>
> Actually, you don't have to guess. I have already demonstrated multiple times in words what my beliefs are. I simply don't understand why you don't acknowledge this.
>
>
> - ScottI do acknowledge your beliefs Scott. Just because I still express my beliefs and try to explain them, does not mean that I do not acknowledge your beliefs or think that there is any validity to them and your arguments. I sense you are frustrated, sorry if anything I said pushed any buttons.
Also, I said I believed that everyone that struggles chronically with depression or any other mental illness, does have a genetic predisposition that plays a major role. So, I have at leas come half way with your beliefs and where you believe your mental illness comes from : ) I understand you don't need me to agree or come half way, I'm just making the point that there is a part of me that understands and acknowledges your beliefs.
Morgan
Posted by morgan miller on September 7, 2010, at 19:05:56
In reply to Re: disability - Proudfoot - SLS » morgan miller, posted by Dinah on September 7, 2010, at 17:57:46
>But ordinary misattunements are part of the expected range of baby experience, and shouldn't cause severe deficits in adult functioning if experienced by a healthy baby. I tend to think animals (including humans) are designed to be more resilient than that. Or at least that's my opinion.
How do you know that a baby is expected to be able to handle flaws in a mother and father's ability to nurture. Don't you think that if that were the case the world would be a much better place. Also, I believe that a child predisposed to mental illness has a much better chance with a very well adjusted mother and father that make it a point to do everything they can to properly love and nurture their child. As far as animals are concerned-1: they are much less complex and tend to need much less as far as nurturing a love is concerned, in this sense, they are better designed to be able to handle less. Animals act more on instincts, and very little or no emotions, depending on the animal. 2: It could be argued that our closest animal relatives, apes and chimpanzees, do a much better job of parenting in some ways than we do. The mother's always keep their children close. They know how much to protect their children and they know when to allow them to have freedom. Apes and chimpanzees love unconditionally and are not critical in anyway(I realize they can really be since they cannot speak to their children like humans can). Being human means being very complex and complicated. Thus, being a parent is a very difficult and complex job, involving tons of patience, tons of observation, tons of care, tons of dedication, and tons and tons of unconditional love.
Morgan
Posted by morgan miller on September 7, 2010, at 19:07:16
In reply to On the other hand... » morgan miller, posted by Dinah on September 7, 2010, at 18:45:35
> I am a big believer in psychotherapy. I think the world would be way better off if both the mentally ill and the "healthy" went to years of therapy. Self awareness is a good thing.
>
> And I can't tell you the number of times I watch "It's Me or the Dog" and shout "Of *course* your dog acts like a maniac. Can you *hear* yourself?!!!" I feel the same way about parenting...
>: )
Posted by emmanuel98 on September 7, 2010, at 19:35:05
In reply to Re: biology vs psychology, posted by morgan miller on September 7, 2010, at 13:26:34
The sadness was always there, I expect, but not the depression. That was an entirely different experience and had nothing whatsoever to do with being sad. I just felt dead inside. I had no hope and no interest in life, which was very unlike the rest of my life.
As far as AA'ers go, there's a very common story you hear in AA of well-loved, nurtured children who have close relationships with their parents but begin drinking/drugging at a young age to be cool and find they spiral out of control. These people tend to come in AA at quite a young age, often at 18 or 19. They're not burying deep dark secrets. They just can't handle mind-altering substances.
> Emmanuel98, do you think it is possible the depression and sadness was always lurking deep beneath the surface, basically underlying depression that you could not necessarily feel, and then at some point this inner sadness/depression came out and took hold in a way it never had before?
>
> >But in AA, I have met people who have had perfect childhoods and loving parents who nevertheless became out of control addicts and alcoholics.
>
> I hate to sound cynical here but there are many many people that claim to have had a perfect childhood and loving parents that had far from that. We have to consider what and how people define things. To them, it may have appeared to be and felt like a perfect childhood. To them, their parents may seemed to be the most loving parents they could have ever asked for. Don't get me wrong, I think AA is great, but there are so many people that go there and distract themselves with love from God and never really take the time to dissect and analyze their childhood and face the demons that may have drove them to addiction in the first place. There is a reason why denial is THE most powerful coping mechanism the human race has in it's arsenal. Can you really trust the word of someone who masked their pain and escaped reality through alcohol and drugs? Again, not trying to be cynical, just realistic. Most people idolize their parents, defending them and putting them up on a pedestal, saying they were great when in reality they really were not. Many do not realize what it truly takes to be a great parent. What many think is great is really sub par.
Posted by emmanuel98 on September 7, 2010, at 19:37:50
In reply to Re: disability - Proudfoot - SLS, posted by morgan miller on September 7, 2010, at 19:05:56
No parents are perfect. There's no such thing. If you're lucky, your child is easy and you have the time and energy to nurture them and give them unconditional love. As my T said, warm and loving is all you need. Parents can be crazy in many ways, but if they are warm and loving, kids will turn out okay.
Posted by SLS on September 7, 2010, at 19:52:51
In reply to Re: biology vs psychology, posted by morgan miller on September 7, 2010, at 18:52:15
> > > I do tend to agree with most everything violette says concerning psychology and it's contributions to the pathogenesis of mental illness, as you may have already guessed.
> >
> > And what would you guess is my position concerning the contribution of psychosocial factors to mental illness?
> >
> > Actually, you don't have to guess. I have already demonstrated multiple times in words what my beliefs are. I simply don't understand why you don't acknowledge this.
> >
> >
> > - Scott
>
> I do acknowledge your beliefs Scott. Just because I still express my beliefs and try to explain them, does not mean that I do not acknowledge your beliefs or think that there is any validity to them and your arguments.
Let's try this again. I might be missing something important.***********************************
I believe that psychosocial stresses - even those that are present during infanthood - can contribute to the pathogenesis and persistence of mental illness.
***********************************
Was this the belief of mine that you were acknowledging?
1. Yes
2. No> I sense you are frustrated,
No. I am committed.
> sorry if anything I said pushed any buttons.
Psychobabble.
> Also, I said I believed that everyone that struggles chronically with depression or any other mental illness, does have a genetic predisposition that plays a major role. So, I have at leas come half way with your beliefs and where you believe your mental illness comes from : ) I understand you don't need me to agree or come half way, I'm just making the point that there is a part of me that understands and acknowledges your beliefs.
I am still at a loss as to recognize which of my beliefs you disagree with. Please feel free to elaborate. Where do we disagree? I honestly would like for you to answer this question just in case the answer might save time and energy.
- Scott
Posted by Dinah on September 7, 2010, at 20:23:36
In reply to Re: disability - Proudfoot - SLS, posted by morgan miller on September 7, 2010, at 19:05:56
> How do you know that a baby is expected to be able to handle flaws in a mother and father's ability to nurture. Don't you think that if that were the case the world would be a much better place. Also, I believe that a child predisposed to mental illness has a much better chance with a very well adjusted mother and father that make it a point to do everything they can to properly love and nurture their child.
I think our therapies are different. My therapist would likely concentrate on the disappointment and disillusionment that come from not accepting the reality of what life is. That even the best motivated parents aren't perfect. That learning to accept that others aren't perfect (and that we aren't perfect) is an integral part of learning to be in relationship with others.
> As far as animals are concerned-1: they are much less complex and tend to need much less as far as nurturing a love is concerned, in this sense, they are better designed to be able to handle less. Animals act more on instincts, and very little or no emotions, depending on the animal. 2: It could be argued that our closest animal relatives, apes and chimpanzees, do a much better job of parenting in some ways than we do. The mother's always keep their children close. They know how much to protect their children and they know when to allow them to have freedom. Apes and chimpanzees love unconditionally and are not critical in anyway(I realize they can really be since they cannot speak to their children like humans can). Being human means being very complex and complicated. Thus, being a parent is a very difficult and complex job, involving tons of patience, tons of observation, tons of care, tons of dedication, and tons and tons of unconditional love.
Well, I'm not sure I believe in unconditional love. Perhaps I'm defining it too narrowly. I do believe that being a parent is difficult and complex, and that parents should cultivate patience, dedication, and love.
It's not my understanding that non-human primates are that uncomplex themselves. Young mothers need to learn how to be a mother, there are "aunts" and "uncles" who help out, conflict with children is not unusual during specific stages of life, and stressed out mothers can parent badly and even reject their young. Even non-primates vary widely in their parenting abilities within a species.
Posted by Dinah on September 7, 2010, at 20:26:52
In reply to Re: disability - Proudfoot - SLS » morgan miller, posted by Dinah on September 7, 2010, at 20:23:36
> Also, I believe that a child predisposed to mental illness has a much better chance with a very well adjusted mother and father that make it a point to do everything they can to properly love and nurture their child.
I agree with the above.
Posted by morgan miller on September 7, 2010, at 20:26:58
In reply to Re: biology vs psychology » morgan miller, posted by SLS on September 7, 2010, at 19:52:51
> > > > I do tend to agree with most everything violette says concerning psychology and it's contributions to the pathogenesis of mental illness, as you may have already guessed.
> > >
> > > And what would you guess is my position concerning the contribution of psychosocial factors to mental illness?
> > >
> > > Actually, you don't have to guess. I have already demonstrated multiple times in words what my beliefs are. I simply don't understand why you don't acknowledge this.
> > >
> > >
> > > - Scott
> >
> > I do acknowledge your beliefs Scott. Just because I still express my beliefs and try to explain them, does not mean that I do not acknowledge your beliefs or think that there is any validity to them and your arguments.
>
>
> Let's try this again. I might be missing something important.
>
> ***********************************
>
> I believe that psychosocial stresses - even those that are present during infanthood - can contribute to the pathogenesis and persistence of mental illness.
>
> ***********************************
>
> Was this the belief of mine that you were acknowledging?
>
> 1. Yes
> 2. No
>
> > I sense you are frustrated,
>
> No. I am committed.
>
> > sorry if anything I said pushed any buttons.
>
> Psychobabble.
>
> > Also, I said I believed that everyone that struggles chronically with depression or any other mental illness, does have a genetic predisposition that plays a major role. So, I have at leas come half way with your beliefs and where you believe your mental illness comes from : ) I understand you don't need me to agree or come half way, I'm just making the point that there is a part of me that understands and acknowledges your beliefs.
>
> I am still at a loss as to recognize which of my beliefs you disagree with. Please feel free to elaborate. Where do we disagree? I honestly would like for you to answer this question just in case the answer might save time and energy.
>
>
> - ScottI think we only differ in that I believe most and maybe all mental illness develop to become unmanageable as a result of early and persistent environmental factors during development. I believe it is VERY rare that someone is simply genetically born into severe chronic mental illness. Am I wrong?
Morgan
Posted by violette on September 7, 2010, at 20:35:08
In reply to Re: biology vs psychology, posted by morgan miller on September 7, 2010, at 17:30:04
Thanks, Morgan. ok, so i'm not done...
To add to what you said about parenting:
I did 'splitting' when i was a child-I looked up to my mom like she was practically an angel..my father was so overtly abusive and scary, i needed to believe i had one safe parent...The relatives, the neighbors...all said (and still say) what a good parent-turns out-she was much, much worse than abusive father as a narcissist bordering on antisocial. My T said he believes she didn't have the ability to form an attachment with all her children...and he is correct. From afar, anyone would guess she is a 'nice' person. She is incapable of emotional connection, intimacy...it doesn't have to be physical or overt abuse. And i feel nothing but pity for her, as she doesn't even know how destructive of a person she is.
My siblings had total mental breakdowns in adulthood-on both occasions, it was after briefly staying with her-when they saw how she 'really is'. My symptomology changed when i started to see it as well...I am just starting to recover as i came very close to a breakdown as well. And none of us saw this until we were in our 30s. Although my siblings don't connect this as much, it is clear. Am i to believe my siblings were born with the biological tendency for prison, hard drugs, etc, as they have been in jail multiple times. It's almost as if my mother psychologically killed them-i don't even know them anymore.
I grew up with mental illness all around me-psychologica/biological-everything-schitzophrenia, anxiety, depression, bipolar, PDs. After teaching myself psychology, everything i learned matches the wide range of my own experiences, and you must know, Morgan, after taking psyche classes-you start to see it all around you.
It seems that many psychiatrists use psychology less than car salesmen. Psychology was integrated into most of my business and a variety of other classes. The 25-year-old car salesman i know said they can size someone up within 5 minutes-and predict with considerable accuracy whether or not they are going to buy the car. Why is it that so many psychiatrists ignore psychology? Go figure.
Posted by morgan miller on September 7, 2010, at 20:36:27
In reply to Re: disability - Proudfoot - SLS » morgan miller, posted by Dinah on September 7, 2010, at 20:23:36
>I think our therapies are different. My therapist would likely concentrate on the disappointment and disillusionment that come from not accepting the reality of what life is. That even the best motivated parents aren't perfect. That learning to accept that others aren't perfect (and that we aren't perfect) is an integral part of learning to be in relationship with others.
I agree that no one is perfect and no one ever will be. I just fear that accepting too much will make it easier for people to be complacent and not strive for better. Striving to be better can help with being better for ourselves and others we are in relationships with-friends, family, romantic interests. I am not talking about being hard on ourselves or critical, I'm talking about gently nurturing ourselves to be better and learning to do this through empathy, compassion and understanding. In group therapy, we do not say, "Well we just have to accept that we don't know how to communicate properly with each other". With this approach or attitude, there would never be any progress made.
Morgan
Posted by morgan miller on September 7, 2010, at 20:46:35
In reply to Re: biology vs psychology » morgan miller, posted by emmanuel98 on September 7, 2010, at 19:35:05
>The sadness was always there, I expect, but not the depression. That was an entirely different experience and had nothing whatsoever to do with being sad. I just felt dead inside. I had no hope and no interest in life, which was very unlike the rest of my life.
I have a friend that just started to experience physical anxiety. She admits that the anxiety was always lurking beneath the surface and due to changes in her life, she was no longer able to suppress it or distract herself from it so that she could not feel it.
>As far as AA'ers go, there's a very common story you hear in AA of well-loved, nurtured children who have close relationships with their parents but begin drinking/drugging at a young age to be cool and find they spiral out of control. These people tend to come in AA at quite a young age, often at 18 or 19. They're not burying deep dark secrets. They just can't handle mind-altering substances.
I thought you may be talking about younger people in AA. We may have to disagree on this, I don't believe anyone, child, teen or adult, becomes addicted to drugs or alcohol if there is not some void to fill. And if there is a void to fill, the parents did not do a complete job. They most likely did not give their children what they needed to be as confident as they could be and to love themselves as much as they could. If a child/teen has confidence, loves themselves, and feels loved, they will not continue to abuse drugs or alcohol. And I don't buy the old excuse that teens are just going to be teens and the parents can't positively influence them or could not have done anything in their childhood to positively influence them. I'm afraid it is likely that the people you speak of in AA were still in denial and may reach a point of enlightenment(hopefully) at some point in their adulthood. Like I mentioned before, there is a reason for denial and there is a reason why it is so powerful. Denial protects us in a way, but it also prevents us from seeing the truth and being able to heal and grow.
I just think we too often want a simple answer because simple answers are easier. Unfortunately, there are few simple answers, we just aren't that simple.
Morgan
Posted by morgan miller on September 7, 2010, at 21:40:40
In reply to Re: biology vs psychology, posted by violette on September 7, 2010, at 20:35:08
>After teaching myself psychology, everything i learned matches the wide range of my own experiences, and you must know, Morgan, after taking psyche classes-you start to see it all around you.
True, very true. I actually have learned as much or more in my experiences and discussions in therapy and group therapy as I have in my classes. After my abnormal psychology professor learned that I had been in therapy for several years, she said it made a lot of sense that I was participating in class discussion with the insight and input I offered. Being very active in therapy and having a very good therapist is almost like another way of getting educated in the theories and science behind psychological principles.
Posted by olivia12 on September 7, 2010, at 21:57:36
In reply to Re: disability » olivia12, posted by chujoe on August 29, 2010, at 7:10:35
Thanks all for a very thoughtful discussion. I loved reading it, although most of you were over my head. You are a very bright group:)
Posted by SLS on September 8, 2010, at 3:34:58
In reply to Re: biology vs psychology, posted by morgan miller on September 7, 2010, at 20:26:58
> > I am still at a loss as to recognize which of my beliefs you disagree with. Please feel free to elaborate. Where do we disagree? I honestly would like for you to answer this question just in case the answer might save time and energy.
> I think we only differ in that I believe most and maybe all mental illness develop to become unmanageable as a result of early and persistent environmental factors during development. I believe it is VERY rare that someone is simply genetically born into severe chronic mental illness. Am I wrong?
I really don't know for sure. Numbers count, and I am not sufficiently prepared to debate them. This is where our ideas diverge. I do not think that it is so rare that a mental illness develop in the absence of a psychosocially stressful environment or imperfect parenting. What makes an environment pathological as opposed to simply difficult? Perhaps children are more resilient than we give them credit for. In any event, I think we differ on the numbers and not on the process.
Morgan, you have influenced me in a good way. I try to learn from everyone, and I consider you a good resource.
- Scott
Posted by jane d on September 8, 2010, at 3:41:37
In reply to Re: disability - Proudfoot - SLS » morgan miller, posted by SLS on September 7, 2010, at 14:43:21
> I am not afraid of the idea that my illness be completely psychological. In fact, I welcomed that possibility when I was first diagnosed with MDD. I much rathered that my psychological discomfort should be within my power to control. In other words, I was very angry when I discovered that no amount of psychotherapy - no amount of work and effort on my part - would get me well. Imagine my surprise when 2 weeks of drug therapy would accomplish what 2 years of psychotherapy did not.
>Amen! I had a similar experience although in my case the medication trial was preceded by years of attempting self help and making changes in my environment. Earthshaking is an understatement.
Could we be hard wired to prefer environmental explanations? I ate that funny looking fruit, I got sick, therefore that fruit made me sick? A useful way of reasoning when it's true, harmless when it's not. Is it such a leap from that to reasoning that my parents were imperfect, I have mental illness, therefore my parents caused my illness?
Happy Tenth plus by the way!
Jane
Posted by SLS on September 8, 2010, at 3:47:18
In reply to Re: Medication revelations » SLS, posted by jane d on September 8, 2010, at 3:41:37
> Happy Tenth plus by the way!
>
> Jane:-)
Thanks, Jane.
- Scott
Posted by violette on September 8, 2010, at 9:30:49
In reply to Re: disability, posted by olivia12 on September 7, 2010, at 21:57:36
Oliva, thanks for starting the thread.
btw-in just looking at what you've written on this forum, you don't sound like you have a mental illness!
Posted by olivia12 on September 8, 2010, at 18:43:00
In reply to Re: disability, posted by violette on September 8, 2010, at 9:30:49
Oh, that's the nicest thing someone said to me today, Violette! Thank you:)
Posted by morgan miller on September 8, 2010, at 19:14:09
In reply to Re: biology vs psychology » morgan miller, posted by SLS on September 8, 2010, at 3:34:58
You've influenced me in a good way too Scott. You are not only very intelligent and informed, but also patient, mature, reasonable and objective. I have learned through you to try to accept other people here and approach them from a more neutral and objective position.
Morgan
Go forward in thread:
Psycho-Babble Medication | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.