Psycho-Babble Medication Thread 960407

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Re: Nardil + lithium = serotonin syndrome » Maxime

Posted by SLS on August 29, 2010, at 14:09:57

In reply to Re: Nardil + lithium = serotonin syndrome » SLS, posted by Maxime on August 29, 2010, at 13:48:56

> Aw, damn. I am really sorry to hear that. What is hypertonia? Guess I could look it up ...

Hypertonia is a state of excessive contracture and spasm of muscles. It affected my lower back most, but it also affected my gait when I walked. My legs were too tight to walk smoothly.


- Scott

 

Re: Nardil + lithium = serotonin syndrome » SLS

Posted by Maxime on August 29, 2010, at 15:13:48

In reply to Re: Nardil + lithium = serotonin syndrome » Maxime, posted by SLS on August 29, 2010, at 14:09:57

> > Aw, damn. I am really sorry to hear that. What is hypertonia? Guess I could look it up ...
>
> Hypertonia is a state of excessive contracture and spasm of muscles. It affected my lower back most, but it also affected my gait when I walked. My legs were too tight to walk smoothly.
>
>
> - Scott

That sounds like me! It is worse in the morning that throught the day, but it is always there. I walk like a cave woman and I sound like an elephant when I come down stairs. But mine didn't start after a med changes or anything. It just happened along with pain I feel throughout my body.

Do you take any meds for it like a muscle relaxant? That's what I feel would help me.

 

Re: Nardil + lithium = serotonin syndrome

Posted by Roslynn on August 29, 2010, at 16:31:29

In reply to Nardil + lithium = serotonin syndrome, posted by SLS on August 29, 2010, at 6:19:45

Scott,

I'm sorry you had to go through this. Are you feeling better? Dumb question, but did you have to go to the ER?

Also, what was your dose of lithium and will you be okay without it?

Roslynn

> I recently had to discontinue lithium after adding Nardil to my treatment regime. It seems that the combination of these two drugs produced a mild to moderate serotonin syndrome. Symptoms included diaphoresis, hyperreflexia, ataxia, and hypertonia (especially of the lower back muscles). In addition, I experienced urinary retention that was non-reactive to bethanechol. All of these things disappeared upon the discontinuation of lithium. My rationale for deciding upon lithium as an offending agent was that the pro-serotonergic properties of lithium (serotonin release) acted synergistically with those of Nardil. I had no such problem with the combination of Parnate and lithium.
>
>
> - Scott

 

Re: Nardil + lithium = serotonin syndrome

Posted by atypical on August 29, 2010, at 18:43:45

In reply to Nardil + lithium = serotonin syndrome, posted by SLS on August 29, 2010, at 6:19:45

SLS,

In the back of my mind I had thought that Lithium might not be a good combo with Nardil because of its serotonin activities. I've been on 60mg Nardil and 900mg Lithium for a year or so now and have not had any problems. Perhaps the 90mg dose of Nardil caused it? I was on 75mg for a few weeks without any serotonin syndrome issues.

Atypical

 

Re: Nardil + lithium = serotonin syndrome » Roslynn

Posted by SLS on August 29, 2010, at 18:47:16

In reply to Re: Nardil + lithium = serotonin syndrome, posted by Roslynn on August 29, 2010, at 16:31:29

Hi Roslynn.

> I'm sorry you had to go through this. Are you feeling better?

Yes. Thanks.

> but did you have to go to the ER?

Luckily, the reaction was not so severe as to require a trip to the hospital.

> Also, what was your dose of lithium

300mg per day.

> and will you be okay without it?

It is hard to tell. Lithium was helping a little, but not enough to justify its continuation in light of the hyperserotonergic state it produced. I had wanted to continue on lithium for its purported neurotrophic properties.

It's always something.


- Scott

 

Re: Nardil + lithium = serotonin syndrome

Posted by emmanuel98 on August 29, 2010, at 19:42:11

In reply to Re: Nardil + lithium = serotonin syndrome » Roslynn, posted by SLS on August 29, 2010, at 18:47:16

Are you sure it's the litium and not the abilify. I was told that abilify and an MAOI are absolutely contra-indicated. My p-doc told me this after attending a workshop on AAPs and MAOIs

 

Re: Nardil + lithium = serotonin syndrome » SLS

Posted by angels78 on August 29, 2010, at 23:27:37

In reply to Re: Nardil + lithium = serotonin syndrome » angels78, posted by SLS on August 29, 2010, at 9:04:34

Dang Scott
Your able to tolerate the side effects at 90mg of Nardil? How's your weight coming along?

 

Re: Nardil + lithium = serotonin syndrome » angels78

Posted by SLS on August 30, 2010, at 5:00:06

In reply to Re: Nardil + lithium = serotonin syndrome » SLS, posted by angels78 on August 29, 2010, at 23:27:37

> Dang Scott
> Your able to tolerate the side effects at 90mg of Nardil?

I doubt that I could have tolerated that much Nardil 20 years ago when I was still somewhat responsive to medications in general. It feels as if I have become tolerant of both the antidepressant effects and unwanted side effects at the same time.

> How's your weight coming along?

Oh, just fine.

:-(

I had gained 50 pounds due to Abilify. Nardil is not making it any easier to control intake or prevent further weight gain. I am very tempted to discontinue Abilify. I would most likely feel worse immediately upon discontinuation. I just hope that this would be a temporary depressive rebound.


- Scott

 

Re: Nardil + lithium = serotonin syndrome » emmanuel98

Posted by SLS on August 30, 2010, at 5:11:16

In reply to Re: Nardil + lithium = serotonin syndrome, posted by emmanuel98 on August 29, 2010, at 19:42:11

> Are you sure it's the litium and not the abilify.

Yes. Theory aside, it was a matter of logic. I had been taking Abiify for quite a few years without untoward effect except for weight gain. The hyperserotonergic symptoms did not appear until I added the Nardil. The last time I was taking Nardil and Abilify together and without lithium, I had no problem. It was an educated guess to pinpoint the lithium as the culprit as it was the only variable, and the knowledge that lithium was a serotonin releaser. Discontinuing the lithium has resulted in an immediate resolution of the problematic symptoms.

> I was told that abilify and an MAOI are absolutely contra-indicated.

I don't know why this would be.

> My p-doc told me this after attending a workshop on AAPs and MAOIs

I am considering discontinuing Abilify. I'll post the results.


- Scott

 

Re: Nardil + lithium = serotonin syndrome » SLS

Posted by ed_uk2010 on August 30, 2010, at 15:06:11

In reply to Re: Nardil + lithium = serotonin syndrome » emmanuel98, posted by SLS on August 30, 2010, at 5:11:16

Hi Scott,

Do you think it's definitely Abilify which is causing your weight gain, not Nardil or nortriptyline?

I think it's probably a good idea to try to come off Abilify. You might feel temporarily worse but that could be followed by an improvement. I just wonder whether your energy levels might improve without the antipsychotic on board.


 

Re: Nardil + lithium = serotonin syndrome

Posted by Roslynn on August 30, 2010, at 16:33:25

In reply to Nardil + lithium = serotonin syndrome, posted by SLS on August 29, 2010, at 6:19:45

Scott,

I'm sorry about the weight gain. I am fighting that too. Best of luck to you as you decrease the Abilify.

Roslynn

 

Re: Nardil + lithium = serotonin syndrome » SLS

Posted by morgan miller on August 30, 2010, at 17:18:04

In reply to Re: Nardil + lithium = serotonin syndrome » emmanuel98, posted by SLS on August 30, 2010, at 5:11:16

Scott, have you ever thought about just taking a small amount of lithium orotate once or twice a day for the continued neuroprotection? You may even still get some subtle mood stabilizing benefit from it. I don't think this will interact with Nardil the way 600 mg of lithium carbonate did.

Morgan

 

Re: Nardil + lithium = serotonin syndrome » ed_uk2010

Posted by SLS on August 30, 2010, at 17:19:25

In reply to Re: Nardil + lithium = serotonin syndrome » SLS, posted by ed_uk2010 on August 30, 2010, at 15:06:11

Hi Ed.

> Do you think it's definitely Abilify which is causing your weight gain, not Nardil or nortriptyline?

Yes. Substituting desipramine for nortriptyline didn't help with the weight gain. Neither did swapping Parnate for Nardil. I was very much dismayed that I did not lose any of the 50 extra pounds when I switched to Parnate and desipramine. The weight gain did not occur immediately upon initiating Abilify therapy. It was a latent effect that emerged insidiously. It seems that this is not an uncommon phenomenon from what I see on Psycho-Babble.

> I think it's probably a good idea to try to come off Abilify. You might feel temporarily worse but that could be followed by an improvement.

Okay. I'll do it. Let's see what happens.

> I just wonder whether your energy levels might improve without the antipsychotic on board.

Actually, one of the reasons I remained on Abilify for so long is that it increased my mental energy and motivation.


- Scott

 

Re: Nardil + lithium = serotonin syndrome » morgan miller

Posted by SLS on August 30, 2010, at 17:24:46

In reply to Re: Nardil + lithium = serotonin syndrome » SLS, posted by morgan miller on August 30, 2010, at 17:18:04

> Scott, have you ever thought about just taking a small amount of lithium orotate once or twice a day for the continued neuroprotection? You may even still get some subtle mood stabilizing benefit from it. I don't think this will interact with Nardil the way 600 mg of lithium carbonate did.
>
> Morgan


You are probably right. I'll give it some thought. I might attempt to discontinue Abilify first.


- Scott


 

Re: Nardil + lithium = serotonin syndrome » SLS

Posted by morgan miller on August 30, 2010, at 17:25:04

In reply to Re: Nardil + lithium = serotonin syndrome » ed_uk2010, posted by SLS on August 30, 2010, at 17:19:25

Scott, how about just trying a lower dose, maybe 2 or 3 mg, of Abilify, at least for a few months.

Morgan

 

Re: Nardil + lithium = serotonin syndrome » morgan miller

Posted by SLS on August 30, 2010, at 17:31:06

In reply to Re: Nardil + lithium = serotonin syndrome » SLS, posted by morgan miller on August 30, 2010, at 17:25:04

> Scott, how about just trying a lower dose, maybe 2 or 3 mg, of Abilify, at least for a few months.
>
> Morgan

My main concern with Abilify is weight gain and elevated triglycerides. So far, I haven't seen any evidence that weight gain with Abilify is dosage related. I'll try to taper slowly.

Thanks.


- Scott

 

Re: Nardil + lithium = serotonin syndrome » SLS

Posted by morgan miller on August 30, 2010, at 17:45:53

In reply to Re: Nardil + lithium = serotonin syndrome » morgan miller, posted by SLS on August 30, 2010, at 17:31:06

Good luck!

 

Re: Nardil + lithium = serotonin syndrome » morgan miller

Posted by SLS on August 30, 2010, at 17:50:35

In reply to Re: Nardil + lithium = serotonin syndrome » SLS, posted by morgan miller on August 30, 2010, at 17:45:53

> Good luck!

Thanks.


- Scott

 

Re: Nardil + lithium = serotonin syndrome

Posted by morgan miller on August 30, 2010, at 18:07:47

In reply to Re: Nardil + lithium = serotonin syndrome » morgan miller, posted by SLS on August 30, 2010, at 17:50:35

Oh yeah I forgot to mention that if you do try lithium orotate, Vitamin Research Products, they evidently have one of the more reliable high quality lithium orotate products out there.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CCkQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.vrp.com%2FProductPage.aspx%3FProdID%3D7241&ei=hzl8TNPQKYTGlQfCl4nsCw&usg=AFQjCNHdraX1Odddq13FsjXgF3Af2GKgCg

Morgan

 

Re: Nardil + lithium = serotonin syndrome

Posted by Phillipa on August 30, 2010, at 19:45:06

In reply to Re: Nardil + lithium = serotonin syndrome, posted by morgan miller on August 30, 2010, at 18:07:47

Scott is it possible your response to meds has changed same as mine did when got older. Not a fun topic. But weight gain seems more common as we age. And like now benzos making me tired and ad's feel nothing. I wonder if the mind also ages and becomes resistant to meds? Not like poop out like habits are more resistant to change we get set in our ways so they say. Don't know if this makes sense or not Phillipa

 

Re: Nardil + lithium = serotonin syndrome » Phillipa

Posted by SLS on August 31, 2010, at 5:21:18

In reply to Re: Nardil + lithium = serotonin syndrome, posted by Phillipa on August 30, 2010, at 19:45:06

> Scott is it possible your response to meds has changed same as mine did when got older. Not a fun topic. But weight gain seems more common as we age. And like now benzos making me tired and ad's feel nothing. I wonder if the mind also ages and becomes resistant to meds? Not like poop out like habits are more resistant to change we get set in our ways so they say. Don't know if this makes sense or not Phillipa

I think it does make sense, and yes, I think my brain has changed in ways that affect my reactivity to drug treatment.


- Scott

 

Re: Nardil + lithium = serotonin syndrome » SLS

Posted by ed_uk2010 on August 31, 2010, at 5:23:32

In reply to Re: Nardil + lithium = serotonin syndrome » ed_uk2010, posted by SLS on August 30, 2010, at 17:19:25

>Actually, one of the reasons I remained on Abilify for so long is that it increased my mental energy and motivation.

I suppose it's difficult to know whether it's still helping. Are you planning to taper off it over a few weeks?


 

Re: Nardil + lithium = serotonin syndrome » ed_uk2010

Posted by SLS on August 31, 2010, at 5:57:20

In reply to Re: Nardil + lithium = serotonin syndrome » SLS, posted by ed_uk2010 on August 31, 2010, at 5:23:32

> >Actually, one of the reasons I remained on Abilify for so long is that it increased my mental energy and motivation.
>
> I suppose it's difficult to know whether it's still helping. Are you planning to taper off it over a few weeks?

I'm going to try tapering Abilify within two weeks. However, I will make adjustments along the way according to how I feel. It might take much longer. I'll try not to be too stubborn. I would like to have information to bring in with me when I see my doctor in two weeks. It would be ideal to be off of Abilify by then.


- Scott

 

Re: Nardil + lithium = serotonin syndrome » SLS

Posted by ed_uk2010 on August 31, 2010, at 6:51:27

In reply to Re: Nardil + lithium = serotonin syndrome » ed_uk2010, posted by SLS on August 31, 2010, at 5:57:20

>I'm going to try tapering Abilify within two weeks. However, I will make adjustments along the way according to how I feel. It might take much longer. I'll try not to be too stubborn. I would like to have information to bring in with me when I see my doctor in two weeks. It would be ideal to be off of Abilify by then.

Do you think you might feel worse if you taper too quickly? That could make you feel that you still need to be on Abilify, when perhaps you don't. Just a thought. I wouldn't want you to reduce too quickly because I don't think there are any advantages in doing so.

Due to its long half life, it makes sense to reduce the dose in relatively large 'steps' but at fairly long intervals eg. you could go straight from 10mg to 5mg ...but stay on 5mg for several weeks before reducing any further. You could then reduce to 2mg for a couple of weeks before stopping.

Even if you are still taking Abilify when you go for your appointment, you'll still be able to tell your doctor how you are feeling on the lower dose - you will still have something to discuss.


 

Re: Nardil + lithium = serotonin syndrome » ed_uk2010

Posted by SLS on August 31, 2010, at 7:00:05

In reply to Re: Nardil + lithium = serotonin syndrome » SLS, posted by ed_uk2010 on August 31, 2010, at 6:51:27

> >I'm going to try tapering Abilify within two weeks. However, I will make adjustments along the way according to how I feel. It might take much longer. I'll try not to be too stubborn. I would like to have information to bring in with me when I see my doctor in two weeks. It would be ideal to be off of Abilify by then.

> Do you think you might feel worse if you taper too quickly?

Probably.

> That could make you feel that you still need to be on Abilify, when perhaps you don't.

Yes. That is a concern of mine.

> Just a thought. I wouldn't want you to reduce too quickly because I don't think there are any advantages in doing so.

I am ambivalent as to the best way to proceed.

> Due to its long half life, it makes sense to reduce the dose in relatively large 'steps' but at fairly long intervals eg. you could go straight from 10mg to 5mg ...but stay on 5mg for several weeks before reducing any further. You could then reduce to 2mg for a couple of weeks before stopping.

That makes a great deal of sense.

> Even if you are still taking Abilify when you go for your appointment, you'll still be able to tell your doctor how you are feeling on the lower dose - you will still have something to discuss.

You are too damned logical.

:-)

Thanks, Ed.


- Scott


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