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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 18 of 18. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by moonshadow on October 17, 2009, at 19:34:45
9 years ago, I was in a bad place - diagnosed with MDD, Bioploar, PTSD, among other things. I was on a TON of meds, none of which seemed to help. 9 psych hospitalizations w/i just a couple of years. A few years later, I got myself out of therapy, off of meds, and married. Life was good. Now I'm in therapy again, and until the past week or so I wasn't really depressed. Even my pdoc didn't think so.
But suddenly I feel like I'm being sucked back down into a black hole. All I want to do is lie in bed. I'm not hungry, I'm just... depressed. And it's awful. S/I is back, a bit, as well.
I don't understand how I could have lived life for a good 6 years w/o meds or therapy and been somewhat 'normal', fairly happy, and not really depressed. I don't know where this is coming from. I guess in my mind I blamed my meds for my depression. I'm scared as s#%t to even consider going back on them (bad side effects, esp with the mood stabilizers and anti-psychotics)
Nothing in my life has changed, really. I'm in therapy again, but she's good about making sure I pace myself. Where is this coming from? Does depression do this, where it comes and goes after years?
-moonshadow, who has spent the day in bed, crying.
Posted by psych chat on October 17, 2009, at 19:42:47
In reply to Help me figure this out?, posted by moonshadow on October 17, 2009, at 19:34:45
((((moonshadow))) sorry you are in a bad place.
Sometimes we are so good with repressing the negative emotions, then our defense mechanisms break down and fail to work-then depression sets in. Usually happens when we get older and can be triggered by relationship difficulties.
I think in the past I was so adept at repressing my childhood trauma related emotions, it just eventually wore off after being triggered by relationship difficulties.
Treated by meds just the same. Not sure if this is the case with you, but it's something to think about.
Posted by Deneb on October 17, 2009, at 20:00:23
In reply to Help me figure this out?, posted by moonshadow on October 17, 2009, at 19:34:45
(((((moonshadow))))
Sorry to hear you are depressed again. I think a lot of depressions are recurring, unfortunately.
Depression doesn't always come from life situations, sometimes it comes from biology.
Sorry you had such bad side effects from meds. I hope you can find a solution for your depression that doesn't leave you with bad side effects. Will you see a pdoc or T?
Posted by Phillipa on October 17, 2009, at 20:03:19
In reply to Re: Help me figure this out? » moonshadow, posted by Deneb on October 17, 2009, at 20:00:23
Moonshadow sounds like both pdoc and therapist to me? Love Phillipa
Posted by floatingbridge on October 17, 2009, at 21:24:15
In reply to Help me figure this out?, posted by moonshadow on October 17, 2009, at 19:34:45
Dear Moonshadow,
this sounds awful, really--and scary. I think you should give yourself major kudos for all you've done--I do.
I'm wondering if something in therapy, something, has triggered this. A fear response to some issue, maybe? Do you keep any track of your 'automatic thoughts'? Something about to surface in therapy? An over looked stressor or life discontent surfacing in therapy?
Sorry for all the questions--just what comes to my mind. Have you looked at what triggered your depressions in the past? anything feel familiar?
I don't expect you to answer these questions--I'm just brainstorming a bit.
Best to you,
fb
Posted by manic666 on October 18, 2009, at 10:42:42
In reply to Re: Help me figure this out? » moonshadow, posted by floatingbridge on October 17, 2009, at 21:24:15
its bad news when you get a relasp, but it could be nothing like before,It may pass as quick as it came , so try not to dwell on the last illness.plus there are a few new meds out since you last illness so you have more choise.
Posted by moonshadow on October 18, 2009, at 11:06:27
In reply to Re: Help me figure this out?, posted by Phillipa on October 17, 2009, at 20:03:19
Yes, my pdoc is also my T who I see for weekly therapy. I see her on Monday.
Posted by floatingbridge on October 18, 2009, at 11:07:01
In reply to Re: Help me figure this out?, posted by manic666 on October 18, 2009, at 10:42:42
> its bad news when you get a relasp, but it could be nothing like before,It may pass as quick as it came , so try not to dwell on the last illness.plus there are a few new meds out since you last illness so you have more choise.
Good points, Maniac.
Moonshadow, how goes it?
fb
Posted by moonshadow on October 18, 2009, at 11:09:26
In reply to Re: Help me figure this out? » moonshadow, posted by floatingbridge on October 17, 2009, at 21:24:15
> Dear Moonshadow,
>
> this sounds awful, really--and scary. I think you should give yourself major kudos for all you've done--I do.
>
> I'm wondering if something in therapy, something, has triggered this. A fear response to some issue, maybe? Do you keep any track of your 'automatic thoughts'? Something about to surface in therapy? An over looked stressor or life discontent surfacing in therapy?
>
> Sorry for all the questions--just what comes to my mind. Have you looked at what triggered your depressions in the past? anything feel familiar?
>
> I don't expect you to answer these questions--I'm just brainstorming a bit.
>
> Best to you,
>
> fbThanks, fb. I think there are a lot of things going on. You hit it when you mentioned something about to surface in therapy - I'm finally trusting my T, and we're getting into things more. Yesterday was also my birthday, which always triggers me. And I just started speaking to my mom again, after months and months of not.
You gave me some good things to think about.
Posted by moonshadow on October 18, 2009, at 11:12:03
In reply to Re: Help me figure this out? » manic666, posted by floatingbridge on October 18, 2009, at 11:07:01
> > its bad news when you get a relasp, but it could be nothing like before,It may pass as quick as it came , so try not to dwell on the last illness.plus there are a few new meds out since you last illness so you have more choise.
>
> Good points, Maniac.
>
> Moonshadow, how goes it?
>
> fbThanks so much for asking. Still feeling really down. Poor dh doesn't know what to do with me. I had forgotten how awful depression feels, and how it can just suck you in. I so don't want to be in this space. I also so much don't want to start the craziness of trying to find meds that work, if indeed that's what pdoc decides.
Posted by moonshadow on October 18, 2009, at 11:14:33
In reply to Re: Help me figure this out?, posted by manic666 on October 18, 2009, at 10:42:42
> its bad news when you get a relasp, but it could be nothing like before,It may pass as quick as it came , so try not to dwell on the last illness.plus there are a few new meds out since you last illness so you have more choise.
Thank you. Yeah, I have so much more of a support system than I did last ime. It's just so scary to face the blackness, after I thought I had conquered it. I'm hoping like you say, that it will pass quick. I can barely remember my last bout of it, so in a way that's good. It's all just so blurry.
Posted by bleauberry on October 18, 2009, at 14:30:04
In reply to Help me figure this out?, posted by moonshadow on October 17, 2009, at 19:34:45
Thank God for those good years! Have no doubt, they will return.
What happened? I don't know that we will ever know. Was it an infectious organism all along that went dormant for those years and is now got a new phase? A new infection maybe? Is it some genetic coding? Something changed in the food choices? Hormones changed? Immune system changed? All of these things directly and dramatically impact what happens in the brain and with mood. We probably won't ever know the answers to those questions.
If the theory of neurotransmitter deficiency is correct, then it is easy to test. 5htp for serotonin, dlpa for norepinephrine/dopamine/endorphins, and tyrosine for dopamine/norepinephrine. I don't see any sense in blinding guessing at a SSRI or any other drug until you have done some detective work with these supplements. See what each feels like and what combinations feel like. That will give you some clues. And in about the same proportion as meds, the same potential for partial or total relief of symptoms.
The plant world has an array of agents beneficial to the mind. The most common one is St Johns Wort. If I told you there are people who have had bad experiences and failures with many meds but found SJW wonderful, you might be skeptical. But it is true. sjwinfo.org is just one such place to read what actual people say of their experiences with SJW.
But that is by no means the only one. Rhodiola Rosea has some power and rapid action. As does SAMe. Lesser known mood enhancers include things like Lemon Balm (in combo with sjw usually), one of the ginsengs (Korean, American, Siberian...they are all very different),
Feverfewm, Gotu Kola, and according to Chinese medicine depression involves stagnant blood, liver, and kidney, which means taking herbs that appear to have nothing to do with the brain, and yet enhance mood somehow.Adrenal fatigue might be at play here. Along with undiagnosed unsuspected Lyme complications, adrenal fatigue is the other condition I see on my personal list as silent epidemics in the American lifestyle. It is easily tested with the Adrenal Stress Index test which measures cortisol/DHEA via saliva at 4 different timepoints throughout a 24 hour period. Treatment involves things like Licorice root, adrenal cortex extract, tyrosine, combinations of them, or low dose hydrocortisone pills, and a modified diet.
Diet is important for healing anything. Heavy on veggies and fruits, moderate on proteins, light on the sugars and caffeins, lots of purified water. Experiment with the different B vitamins, with probably B12, B6, B5, or Niacin (the flush type) having the most immediate potential for you to judge. And of course the antioxidants...C, E, selenium.
Any amalgams in your mouth? Ever had any? That would be important.
Any hidden infections you are unaware of? Lyme? Candida? Other bacteria? Virus? Fungi? Protozoa? Worm? Easy to find out. Order the product Allimax, take double doses, and see what happens in 2 weeks. If you feel a Herxheimer reaction coming on (flu-like worsening of symptoms) then you just made a diagnosis. Not sure what you got, but you got something. Whatever it is, you already know it is sensitive to Allicin (the primary powerful anti-microbial agent in garlic), which is what Allimax is. Other anti-infective agents include Olive Leaf extract, Oil of Oregano, Grapefruit Seed extract, and a dozen others, not to mention the powerful stuff from Chinese medicine.
I understand your fear of not wanting to go back on meds. You've been there, done that. Where did it get you? In and out of the hospital multiple times right?
At this point in your history, I think it makes a ton of sense to pretend psychiatrists and psychiatric meds do not exist. Not an option.
Instead, recruit as your a doctor an Integrative MD. They are trained and knowledgable in the things that cause depression, not just in the things that might help with symptoms. And they have a lot more in their toolbox than psychiatrists have, many being natural, safe, in harmony with the body, and suitable for longterm use. Since they are full fledged MDs, should you want a psychiatrict med, they can also prescribe those along with a more comprehensive plan than you will ever get from a psychiatrist.
With a different history I might have a different opinion. I see absolutely no sense in returning to a place that failed you time and time again. That would be insanity on display, my feelings anyway.
I think Integrative MDs should be first-line treatment, psychiatrists are alternative treatment. The American medical profession has it completely backwards. Is that because one is better than another? No. It is because there is a mountain more profit and politics in one than the other. I believe they go hand in hand as partners better than either alone, but that the start, and often the only, treatment needed is integrative. It supports the whole you, the whole body, not just a mood disorder, which is probably coming from somewhere else in the body anyway.
My two cents.
Posted by Phillipa on October 18, 2009, at 20:18:09
In reply to Re: Help me figure this out?, posted by moonshadow on October 18, 2009, at 11:12:03
So this is your second depression how many years from the first? In a way that's good news. What worked the first time if enough time gone by may very well work again. Good luck with pdoc and keep posting? Love Phillipa
Posted by Moonshadow on October 18, 2009, at 20:39:36
In reply to Re: Help me figure this out?, posted by bleauberry on October 18, 2009, at 14:30:04
Bleau, that's a lot of information- thank you! I'm going to copy what you've said for reference. For better or worse, right now I see a psychiatrist for therapy. I have no doubt that she's not up on her natural treatments. For some reason I've always been hesitant to break into the world of natural meds. It's overwhelming. You've given me a great start, though. Thanks.
Posted by floatingbridge on October 18, 2009, at 20:44:38
In reply to Re: Help me figure this out? » bleauberry, posted by Moonshadow on October 18, 2009, at 20:39:36
> Bleau, that's a lot of information- thank you! I'm going to copy what you've said for reference. For better or worse, right now I see a psychiatrist for therapy. I have no doubt that she's not up on her natural treatments. For some reason I've always been hesitant to break into the world of natural meds. It's overwhelming. You've given me a great start, though. Thanks.
Moonshadow, I know of a decent book, unless someone says otherwise--UltraMind. Breaks down supplements into lists and categories. Simple to follow. Doesn't do too much herbs, though. It's helping me slowly add supplements into my regime. I just jettison some of the new age thought that is in the book and go for the simple to understand explanations of how things work in the body. I am personally allergic to new age thinking--but that's just me ;-).
fb
Posted by Moonshadow on October 19, 2009, at 7:28:14
In reply to Re: Help me figure this out? » Moonshadow, posted by floatingbridge on October 18, 2009, at 20:44:38
Fb, your post made me laugh. I'll see if my library has the book. I tend to shy away from new age stuff as well.
Posted by JohnJ777 on October 23, 2009, at 15:04:27
In reply to Re: Help me figure this out?, posted by bleauberry on October 18, 2009, at 14:30:04
Bleau,
Great comments on the importance of a Holistic MD. I switched from a standard doc ("Don't take herbs, they're dangerous. Take this prescription instead.") to a Holistic MD ("Try this Rhodiola.") and sure enough my life changed for the better. The Holistic doc's are up to speed on drug/herb interactions and they aren't scared to tell you to get OFF a prescription. When I switched over to RHodiola (after one or two rocky weeks), things really improved.
Posted by floatingbridge on October 23, 2009, at 16:42:16
In reply to Re: Help me figure this out?, posted by JohnJ777 on October 23, 2009, at 15:04:27
O.k, O.K. what is this rhodiola that is the buzz these days? For anxiety? Glad it's working for you!
In the process of finding an integrative physician, afer my last MD said, (in the kindest possible way), "there's nothing wrong with you."
fb
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