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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 25. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by bleauberry on October 8, 2009, at 16:39:25
So after outpatient surgery I was given Hydrocodone, 2 every 3 hours for pain. Knowing the slippery treacherous slope of opioids, I have only been doing 1 to 1 1/2 during an entire 24 hour period.
The effect took me by surprise. I expected to be maybe heavily drugged, sedated. Or maybe to get euphoric, but my luck is never that good. What actually happened was that I felt absolutely completely normal, like 20 years ago before illness hit. No depression, no high, no nothing. Just pure normal.
My hypothesis is that, as Larry pointed out, the toxins of infectious organisms have an affinity for the opioid receptors, thus displacing our own natural opioids from attaching to those receptors? I am sure hydrocodone has stronger affinity to those receptors than the toxins, so it displaces them. Normalcy is the result. Remove the toxins, depression gone. Nothing at all to do with serotonin or any of the stuff the psych drugs target.
So now the likely impossible challenge is to find what will bind or neutralize those toxins. In Stephen Buhner's Herbal book for Lyme, Sarsaparilla is one of very few substances that strongly binds toxins in the blood. Dr Zhang has a formula of Chinese medicines to partially do that as well. And it makes me wonder about LDN...maybe that's why I had such a roller coaster ride on it...feeling not much different while the receptors were blocked, feeling randomly much better as the increased opioids hit the receptors, and feeling worse as the toxins moved in to displace the opioids. ???
Well I guess this could be arm-chair quarterbacked from here to the moon. I just wanted to say that low dose hydrocodone equals normalcy for me. That's a bad road though.
I wonder about Tramadol? Doctors prescribe that like candy. SNRI with some opioid action. Horrible withdrawals too though.
Even when we know from where our depression comes and what will fix it, it doesn't always make anything any easier.
Posted by kirbyw on October 8, 2009, at 18:41:45
In reply to Hydrocodone equals Normal, posted by bleauberry on October 8, 2009, at 16:39:25
I have had a similar experience with Vicodin.
I was prescribed Vicodin 7 years ago for chronic pelvic pain syndrome. Over the past 6 and one half years I maintained a low dose average of about one and a half tablets per day of Vicodin 5/500. (5 mg hydrocodeine and 500 tylenol) Then a few months ago I was able to stop taking the Vicodin completely for a few weeks.Around the same time I also stopped taking my Parnate which I had taken for most of the past 20 years. I decided to switch to Remeron. In any case, I soon began to experience severe depression and anxiety without the Parnate. It was not a good time to stop taking it.
What I discovered was that if I took a half of a Vicodin, it would also immediately take the edge off of the depression, and I would be able to function much better. I began to do this while waiting to begin Remeron and then during the short period of time that I tried Remeron.
The Remeron didn't seem to work and I am now back on Parnate, and hoping that it will function effectively as it has done in the past.
In the mean time I continue to take small amounts of the Vicodin (maximum one tablet per day, divided into two or three doses)to help me to function better. It has an anti depressant effect. But it is obviously not part of the long term solution. Although if I keep the dose low I am not sure that it is doing me any harm either. The problem would be with tolerance, if I had to take more and more to achieve the same relief from depression/anxiety. I would like to understand the chemistry of this. I suspect that during acute phases of depression while patients are waiting for an anti-depressant to kick in that a drug such as this would be very useful for some people, but it would have to be taken under very strictly controlled conditions by people who would have the will power to not to increase their dose. I don't think any psychiatrists are going to recognize this as a legitimate issue or investigate it further, but they should.
Rick in Costa Rica
> So after outpatient surgery I was given Hydrocodone, 2 every 3 hours for pain. Knowing the slippery treacherous slope of opioids, I have only been doing 1 to 1 1/2 during an entire 24 hour period.
>
> The effect took me by surprise. I expected to be maybe heavily drugged, sedated. Or maybe to get euphoric, but my luck is never that good. What actually happened was that I felt absolutely completely normal, like 20 years ago before illness hit. No depression, no high, no nothing. Just pure normal.
>
> My hypothesis is that, as Larry pointed out, the toxins of infectious organisms have an affinity for the opioid receptors, thus displacing our own natural opioids from attaching to those receptors? I am sure hydrocodone has stronger affinity to those receptors than the toxins, so it displaces them. Normalcy is the result. Remove the toxins, depression gone. Nothing at all to do with serotonin or any of the stuff the psych drugs target.
>
> So now the likely impossible challenge is to find what will bind or neutralize those toxins. In Stephen Buhner's Herbal book for Lyme, Sarsaparilla is one of very few substances that strongly binds toxins in the blood. Dr Zhang has a formula of Chinese medicines to partially do that as well. And it makes me wonder about LDN...maybe that's why I had such a roller coaster ride on it...feeling not much different while the receptors were blocked, feeling randomly much better as the increased opioids hit the receptors, and feeling worse as the toxins moved in to displace the opioids. ???
>
> Well I guess this could be arm-chair quarterbacked from here to the moon. I just wanted to say that low dose hydrocodone equals normalcy for me. That's a bad road though.
>
> I wonder about Tramadol? Doctors prescribe that like candy. SNRI with some opioid action. Horrible withdrawals too though.
>
> Even when we know from where our depression comes and what will fix it, it doesn't always make anything any easier.
Posted by Phillipa on October 8, 2009, at 18:42:30
In reply to Hydrocodone equals Normal, posted by bleauberry on October 8, 2009, at 16:39:25
BB same thing happened to me with a surgery not high normal it was great. Didn't know tramadol was given out like candy. Though another opiod. LDN in archieves great article written by a poster who used to post on alternative I saved it if want. Babble address again. I used to have it. Phillipa/Jan ps will answer mail soon
Posted by zzzz7 on October 9, 2009, at 0:55:05
In reply to Re: Hydrocodone equals Normal, posted by kirbyw on October 8, 2009, at 18:41:45
We've known for a while that opiates can have an antidepressant effect. Nothing to do with toxins, either. I may head that route myself if I run out of standard AD options.
Posted by rjlockhart04-08 on October 9, 2009, at 4:47:05
In reply to Re: Hydrocodone equals Normal, posted by zzzz7 on October 9, 2009, at 0:55:05
Hi, i'm up late I saw this post. One thing about depression, i've gone down to the debths of it, just a while ago, i posted a post and I forgot i posted it, i read it and I learned from my own writing, I drank heavily, and alcohol does not make depression go away, it increases sadness, it just depends what state of mind your in, because some people alcohol improves some aspect's.
You know, i've heard from alot of people that hydrocodone improves depression, one time i went into the mental institution, and this one individuel was doing fine, took half 5mg of Vicodin every 4 hours. I don't get it, yet I know that opiod's improve mood, didnt know there used to antidepressant effect's.
Depression i've been in "episodes" they become so 'great' to endure, sometimes I wish I'm not counsious, and in the past I would drink and pass out, yet i rather be passed out then to stay in that state of hell, if I maybe experienced going to hell I'm saved now. There a state of depression that is really severe, not suicidal, it's just...you would rather be not in that state, Prozac indirectly help's, yet the agony that i've thought, sometimes .... I just want reality to leave, because the tear's, the state is not endurable.
I took Xanax 2mg for a while, then went on the XR form. I just don't have control over alot of things in my life, and I wasnt taught how.
The best thing that ever worked for me both for depression and focus...are Psychostimulants, Dexedrine Spansules are the best, yet there a controlled substance, level 2.
I just had to share something...thanks for the post.
Posted by Larry Hoover on October 9, 2009, at 18:40:44
In reply to Hydrocodone equals Normal, posted by bleauberry on October 8, 2009, at 16:39:25
It sounds like a reasonable hypothesis, my friend. Managing opiates is like juggling swords, in my experience.
Lar
Posted by emmanuel98 on October 9, 2009, at 20:38:18
In reply to Re: Hydrocodone equals Normal » bleauberry, posted by Larry Hoover on October 9, 2009, at 18:40:44
I was addicted to hydrocodone and oxycodone and got depressed when I went off these drugs. I tried other psych meds but they either didn't work or they made me gain tons of weight. This past summer, I was so depressed and so done with psych med experiments that I wanted to go on suboxone (a methadone like opiate). But I agreed first to try parnate and that worked for me.
The downside of opiates, if you are depressed, is that they are easy to overdose on. You also build up tolerance quickly. P-docs won't prescribe them for these reasons. Suboxone, on the other hand, can't be used to overdose because it contains naloxone (an opiate antagonist). But p-docs need a special license to prescribe it.
Posted by Phillipa on October 9, 2009, at 21:36:25
In reply to Re: Hydrocodone equals Normal, posted by emmanuel98 on October 9, 2009, at 20:38:18
DEA something like that. Heard a great med for anxiety also. Phillipa
Posted by bleauberry on October 10, 2009, at 18:57:11
In reply to Hydrocodone equals Normal, posted by bleauberry on October 8, 2009, at 16:39:25
You can definitely feel the come-down when a dose wears off. Feels like the floor is dropping out from under you, darkness moves in.
My prescription calls for 2 pills every 3 hours. In 4 days I have only taken 5 pills total. Very afraid of this stuff. I can easily see how someone would get addicted. Especially someone who has been depressed a long time and knows the cure is sitting in that little brown bottle and kicks in about 2 hours.
I think I'll save this stuff for suicide prevention if things ever get that bad again.
They definitely overprescribed. 2 pills every 3 hours? That's insane.
Posted by metafunj on October 11, 2009, at 12:31:51
In reply to Re: Hydrocodone equals Normal, posted by emmanuel98 on October 9, 2009, at 20:38:18
Hi emmanuel,
I was wondering which psych drugs you tried before parnate? I'm looking at trying that for anhedonia.
Posted by emmanuel98 on October 11, 2009, at 19:09:20
In reply to Re: Hydrocodone equals Normal » emmanuel98, posted by metafunj on October 11, 2009, at 12:31:51
I tried lexapro, cymbalta, wellbutrin. Didn't work. I tried lamictal and lithium. Didn't work. I tried abilify, zyprexa and risperdal. All worked beautifully but made me gain 2-3 pounds per week. Seroquel and geodon didn't work for me. I finally came off everything and tried Emsam, which didn't work for me. I was desperate by this time. I went to a hospital and they kept me for a two-week washout period from Emsam, then tried parnate. In 48 hours, my depression lifted and I had been severely depressed for two years. So parnate's been great for me.
Posted by metafunj on October 11, 2009, at 20:10:38
In reply to Re: Hydrocodone equals Normal, posted by emmanuel98 on October 11, 2009, at 19:09:20
Was anhedonia one of your major symptoms? Have you noticed any difference with cognition on parnate?
Posted by emmanuel98 on October 11, 2009, at 20:24:31
In reply to Re: Hydrocodone equals Normal, posted by metafunj on October 11, 2009, at 20:10:38
> Was anhedonia one of your major symptoms? Have you noticed any difference with cognition on parnate?
I'm not sure what anhedoia means -- inability to feel pleasure? I was severely depressed and sleeping all the time. I couldn't function. Nothing made me feel good. So I suppose I had anhedonia.
The only side effect I had from parnate was insomnia and 100mg of seroquel at night took care of that. I also had some orthostatic hypotension at the beginning (blood pressure drops when you get up from a lying or sitting position and you feel dizzy for a few minutes) but that went away. No cognitive effects at all. No tiredness. Taking parnate is like taking a vitamin as far as side effects go for me.
Posted by rjlockhart04-08 on October 11, 2009, at 21:28:27
In reply to Re: Hydrocodone equals Normal, posted by emmanuel98 on October 11, 2009, at 20:24:31
I read some of your post, you have similar feelings of depression I seem to have. I see doctor, and what i'm trying to show is alot of cognitive abilites are slowed down, focus, and depression in gerenal. Alcohol is the worst for depression, it worsens the feeling of guilt, and ugh...
What should I do, did you improve that quick on Parnate? I take Prozac it's more of a "cosmetic" drug, not much effect. Dexedrine helped, yet it's on a timed chart, so alway's be ready for the rebound effect. That's why spansules are better.
Thanks
Posted by cactus on October 11, 2009, at 23:16:53
In reply to Hydrocodone equals Normal, posted by bleauberry on October 8, 2009, at 16:39:25
I had two rotten root canals removed last year, with some jaw bone as well and was given Endone 5mg (oxycodone)
The 1st pill made me sick and sweaty but I was in so much pain the next morning I took another one. The pain went away and I too felt normal, just normal. I didn't get high off it either. It's strange how some opiates work. Tramal always makes me sick and messes with my head, and so does large doses of codeine but oxycodone didn't.
I can see how that could become one hell of a slippery slope though. I was on it for 2 weeks and the amazing feeling of normalcy was gone by the end. I took 10mg towards the end as an experiment, to see if I could get it back, and sure enough, it came back flooding back, so I stopped taking them.
Posted by metafunj on October 12, 2009, at 7:49:10
In reply to Re: Hydrocodone equals Normal, posted by cactus on October 11, 2009, at 23:16:53
Did any of you guys tell your doctors that these medications made your depression go away? If they know you have treatment resistant depression they might prescribe you painkillers for depression.
Opiates also cause a release of dopamine so maybe dopamine releasing/enhancing drugs could help your depression.
Posted by emmanuel98 on October 12, 2009, at 14:22:16
In reply to Re: Hydrocodone equals Normal » cactus, posted by metafunj on October 12, 2009, at 7:49:10
My p-doc knew how I responded to opiates. He also knew I was profoundly addicted to them. They are very short acting (in and out in a few hours), build up tolerance very quickly, so you need higher and higher dosages to acheive an effect and are potent suicide agents. Not good for severe depression. It's like RJ and dexedrine. Doctors don't like prescribing these class 2 substances. They're not desirable if you can find a non-addictive drug to work. It also places their licenses in jeapordy, since the DEA does periodic audits of class 2 presecriptions.
> Did any of you guys tell your doctors that these medications made your depression go away? If they know you have treatment resistant depression they might prescribe you painkillers for depression.
>
> Opiates also cause a release of dopamine so maybe dopamine releasing/enhancing drugs could help your depression.
Posted by metafunj on October 12, 2009, at 15:20:23
In reply to Re: Hydrocodone equals Normal, posted by emmanuel98 on October 11, 2009, at 20:24:31
Thats sad because I'd rather be prescribed a addictive stimulant than an AP that can cause permanent neurological disorders for anhedonia.
Posted by emmanuel98 on October 12, 2009, at 17:01:38
In reply to Re: Hydrocodone equals Normal » emmanuel98, posted by metafunj on October 12, 2009, at 15:20:23
> Thats sad because I'd rather be prescribed a addictive stimulant than an AP that can cause permanent neurological disorders for anhedonia.
Be careful what you wish for. Addictive substances are short acting and they need higher and higher and more frequent doses to prevent more or less constant rebound effects. Docs get antsy about prescribing higher doses and the effects tend to wear off after a while. Atypical APs rarely cause neurological problems. I've taken them all and found they work wonders. They did cause weight gain, but not everyone finds this to be the case. Why not try an SSRI? Or have you already tried that? Or an MAOI? The side effects tend to wear off with all these psych drugs and their effects, if they work, are long-lasting. No abuse or addiction syndromes.
Posted by metafunj on October 12, 2009, at 19:02:51
In reply to Re: Hydrocodone equals Normal, posted by emmanuel98 on October 12, 2009, at 17:01:38
I've tried some SSRIs, I don't plan on trying them all cuz they seem to cause the same feeling of spaciness.
I haven't tried an MAO or AP yet though.
I'm curious about Remeron or maybe provigil. Its a longer acting stimulant. Perhaps Parnate too.
APs do scare me since I tend to be pretty drug sensitive. For example I was on Wellbutrin for a little less than 2 months and only on the higher dose 300 for a couple weeks yet i still have ringing in my ears a couple weeks after stopping it. I feel like my body doesn't always recover from the effects of these drugs.
Posted by rjlockhart04-08 on October 12, 2009, at 19:46:33
In reply to Re: Hydrocodone equals Normal, posted by emmanuel98 on October 12, 2009, at 17:01:38
Try Provigel....
It's stimulating for wakefulness. You know there is a alot of discouragement here, I don't want to be an example for people for addiction, dependence, or anything. People just automatically assume what is, and it's not.
Posted by cactus on October 12, 2009, at 19:57:59
In reply to Re: Hydrocodone equals Normal » cactus, posted by metafunj on October 12, 2009, at 7:49:10
> Did any of you guys tell your doctors that these medications made your depression go away? If they know you have treatment resistant depression they might prescribe you painkillers for depression.
>
> Opiates also cause a release of dopamine so maybe dopamine releasing/enhancing drugs could help your depression.
Yes, but I'm an alcoholic, 2.5 years sober and neither my doc or I wanted to pursue it any further. The best reactions I've had to meds have all been dopamine related which I just discovered recently. I never made a connection to it until I wrote a rather long list and my GP said you seem to respond well to dopamine related drugs.
I forgot to mention that the urinary hesitancy and constipation from opiates is really bad for me, it is worse than Edronax.
Posted by metafunj on October 13, 2009, at 8:04:47
In reply to Re: Hydrocodone equals Normal, posted by rjlockhart04-08 on October 12, 2009, at 19:46:33
I appreciate the warning. I could probably get a script for a stimulant if I saw a psychiatrist since i have ADD symptoms. I'm not too worried about provigil since its not as strong as the other stimulants and some people say it does nothing for mood.
Even if I got a true stimulant I dont have an addictive personality and I would worry too much about what too much of the drugs would be doing to me to take more than the prescribed amount.
I've noticed that opiates don't make me feel good. They don't even take away the minor aches and pains I have. I wonder if this is because dopamine is so low and opiates need dopamine to produce their painkilling affect.
Posted by florence on October 19, 2009, at 1:17:59
In reply to Re: Hydrocodone equals Normal » rjlockhart04-08, posted by metafunj on October 13, 2009, at 8:04:47
Please do not think Provigil is less dangerous, addictive, etc. just becuz it is a Scheduled Drug Class IV (Four).
It is very expensive...Right u r no mood benefit for me. BUT
I have done tons of research on it..IMHO the company's intention is to get it approved for ADHD especially in children since the usual ADHD meds like Adderall, Ritalin and Dexedrine are in a higher schedule.
One criteria for abuse potential is "street value". So since 2001 when I began taking it-- the price has not dropped..
I have no mental illnesses but was given dozens of ADs to take daily to prevent menstrual migraines.
Finally, I diagnosed myself basically -with the help of Psycho Babble--- with hypothyroidism and it took years to get a dr to listen to me.
I have anhedonia big time; nonstop fatigue. Provigil helped me with alertness. It probably would work for ADHD....I feel like it GAVE me ADHD. sorry, too sick to go on for now.
florence
> I appreciate the warning. I could probably get a script for a stimulant if I saw a psychiatrist since i have ADD symptoms. I'm not too worried about provigil since its not as strong as the other stimulants and some people say it does nothing for mood.
>
> Even if I got a true stimulant I dont have an addictive personality and I would worry too much about what too much of the drugs would be doing to me to take more than the prescribed amount.
>
> I've noticed that opiates don't make me feel good. They don't even take away the minor aches and pains I have. I wonder if this is because dopamine is so low and opiates need dopamine to produce their painkilling affect.
Posted by cactus on October 19, 2009, at 3:12:10
In reply to Re: Hydrocodone equals Normal » metafunj, posted by florence on October 19, 2009, at 1:17:59
sorry to hear your in a bad place florence. I have a very addictive personality and I never had a problem with modafinil at all. I also had no withdrawals from it whatsoever either. It is so expensive though but it worked wonders for me while it lasted. C
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