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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 11 to 35 of 35. Go back in thread:
Posted by Racer on June 30, 2005, at 12:54:38
In reply to Re: More anecdotal experience (got looonnnggg) » Racer, posted by ed_uk on June 30, 2005, at 10:45:26
> Hi Racer!
>
> Thanks for your detailed and interesting reply :-)You're very welcome. Thank you for your compliments.
> Are you a vet?
No, nor do I play one on TV... Just someone with a collection of animals. Oh, yeah, and worked with horses for a long time, mostly as a trainer/riding instructor. That means that, not only do I have a lot of experience with various horses with various health issues, I also get to gossip with other trainers and with the vets.
Vets, by the way, are a great way to learn a lot. Much better than doctors for humans. I guess it's because the human doctors figure they can say, "Take this medication as directed" and be done with it. Vets figure they have to help the owners be part of the treatment team, so they tend to explain the treatment plan much better. They tell the owner all sorts of things to look for, since the animal involved can't say, 'you know, my tummy hurts' or anything like that. They also explain what the medication will do, so that there's less chance of the owner "forgetting" about a drug that might be a pain to administer. (One of my horses will eat pills that you offer him by hand -- he's a little dim -- but most require that you grind it up, then dissolve in water, then mix with feed, and often you even have to add something sticky, like molasses. It really is a pain, and very few people use pill ballers these days.) Bottom line is, vets are a great source of information.
>
> >Take a tablet, about two hours later I can roll around and scream with the best of them.
>
> :-O What dose did you find most effective?I think I took the standard 4mg. Don't need it these days, with Cymbalta/Wellbutrin. The Cymbalta caused a bit of anorgasmia at first, but that wore off, even before the Wellbutrin.
>
> >If I take it regularly, though, for this reason, it will decrease the effectiveness of my AD.
>
> Does it increase your appetite?Not that I've noticed, but I take it as needed, and not that often.
>
> Kind regards
>
> ~Ed
>
> PS. Now I know why you're called Racer :-)Tell me? I called myself that because I never had money to buy a nice horse, usually rode off-the-track thoroughbreds -- the bargain basement of the horse world, but I like 'em!
Posted by ed_uk on June 30, 2005, at 16:29:51
In reply to Re: More anecdotal experience (got looonnnggg) » ed_uk, posted by Racer on June 30, 2005, at 12:54:38
Hi Racer,
>Vets, by the way, are a great way to learn a lot.
Maybe I should start seeing a vet!
~Ed
Posted by rod on June 30, 2005, at 17:23:00
In reply to Lets discuss cyproheptadine (Periactin)! Linkadge?, posted by ed_uk on June 29, 2005, at 10:32:50
Hi
I alredy posted it in a other thread.
But I will repeat the most important things Periactine does to me.
I dont take it on a regular basis. Just if I feel apathic and fatigued and have to accomplish a task which requires attention and energy, I take it. Within 30 mins or so it starts working. Mildly stimulating, anti fatigue, mind refeshing. Provides mental focus to do stuff. sharpens my mind a bit.
Also decreases numbness and has a pro libido effect.
But it is, for me, not really sedating (maybe a bit), not really anticholinergic (dumbing or dry mouth), nor does it increase appetite further. maybe Nortriptyline already ocupied my 2C receptor and Periacin does not add any noticeable blockade, because its alredy "knocked out". maybe.
Only bothering side effect is after repeated administration, I get sore corners of the mouth!? strange. I can remember that some nutritional deficits can couse this, but I am not aware of any "anti vitamin" action of Pericatin. I guess this has some other reasons.
just my 2 cents (or 3 =) )
bye
Roland
Posted by ed_uk on June 30, 2005, at 18:08:35
In reply to Re: Lets discuss cyproheptadine (Periactin)! Linka, posted by rod on June 30, 2005, at 17:23:00
Hi Roland,
>Mildly stimulating, anti fatigue, mind refeshing. Provides mental focus to do stuff. sharpens my mind a bit.
Do you get the same effect when you take other antihistamines? A few people do find them stimulating.
Thank you for your reply :-)
~Ed
Posted by rod on June 30, 2005, at 18:43:29
In reply to Re: Lets discuss cyproheptadine (Periactin)! Linka » rod, posted by ed_uk on June 30, 2005, at 18:08:35
> Hi Roland,
>
> >Mildly stimulating, anti fatigue, mind refeshing. Provides mental focus to do stuff. sharpens my mind a bit.
>
> Do you get the same effect when you take other antihistamines? A few people do find them stimulating.
>well. I havent tried many of them.
I once have taken a combination of Loratadin and Pseudoephedrin. Yes that ways stimulating, but I guess because of the Pseudoephedrin.
And Hydroxyzin (Atarax). But this was only mildly sedating. NO stimlation as far as I can remember.
And Diphenhydramine. But its more sedating than stimulating. Also has some positive effect on my conditioin. Sound weired, but I experience it as having a very mild stimulating effect, which gets overlapped with an sedative effect. its both, somehow. but sedation is stronger.
hmmm and many years ago I took one occasionaly (I guess it was also Loratadine)
But cant remember such a reaction. But I was around 14 when i took it, for mild hay fever.Yes, I know some people (especially younger ones? correct?) can have this kind of "paradox" reaction.
bye
Roland
Posted by ed_uk on June 30, 2005, at 20:31:53
In reply to Re: Lets discuss cyproheptadine (Periactin)! Linka » ed_uk, posted by rod on June 30, 2005, at 18:43:29
Hi Roland :-)
>Yes, I know some people (especially younger ones? correct?) can have this kind of "paradox" reaction.
Yes, mainly children :-) Thank you for sharing your experiences Roli :-P
Kind regards
~Ed
Posted by Declan on July 1, 2005, at 22:18:56
In reply to Re: Lets discuss cyproheptadine (Periactin)! Linka » rod, posted by ed_uk on June 30, 2005, at 20:31:53
OK, Linkadge finds that it's good for deepening sleep. Roland (I think) finds it stimulating. Anything that can deepen the quality of sleep is interesting. Anyone apart from Link find that it's good this way for sleep?
Declan
Posted by Brainbeard on September 25, 2009, at 14:52:41
In reply to Lets discuss cyproheptadine (Periactin)! Linkadge?, posted by ed_uk on June 29, 2005, at 10:32:50
I'm interested in cyproheptadine because of its 5HT2A/C-antagonism, which indirectly boosts dopamine and noradrenaline, as well as promoting deep stage sleep and having anxiolytic effects.
I've been looking on the internet for quite some time to find its binding profile. Eventually, I found this: http://docs.google.com/gview?a=v&q=cache:2UDBSpj0PeQJ:www.lycaeum.org/research/researchpdfs/3722.pdf+Young+binding+profile+of+cyproheptadine&hl=nl&gl=nl&sig=AFQjCNHDjW8WDAk-kS6JbhJpXCF747qf_A
According to this study, cyproheptadine's 5HT2-antagonism is in the same range as its antimuscarinic and antihistaminergic properties, which is roughly a receptor affinity of 5 Ki (the lower the Ki value, the higher the affinity). The Ki for 5HT2A receptors is about 20 times higher than the Ki for 5HT2C receptors (http://www.google.nl/search?hl=nl&safe=active&client=firefox-a&rlz=1R1GGIC_nl___NL345&q=Ki+cyproheptadine+5-HT2A+5-HT2C+receptors%22&btnG=Zoeken&meta=, see text of first search result.)
This would mean that cyproheptadine is a weaker antihistaminergic than amitriptyline, but a stronger 5HT2A-antagonist. Which makes it quite an interesting drug, in my opinion.
Posted by SLS on September 25, 2009, at 15:33:31
In reply to Re: Lets discuss cyproheptadine (Periactin)!, posted by Brainbeard on September 25, 2009, at 14:52:41
Baron Shopsin, MD at NYU recommended that I try Periactin in 1986. I never knew what to make of this suggestion, as it was the last thing he ever said to me. The guy was brilliant.
- Scott
Posted by zzzz7 on September 25, 2009, at 21:12:53
In reply to Lets discuss cyproheptadine (Periactin)! Linkadge?, posted by ed_uk on June 29, 2005, at 10:32:50
I found it interfered with cognition in the same way Namenda did, though not as badly as Lamictal.
Posted by jasmineneroli on September 25, 2009, at 21:21:12
In reply to Re: Lets discuss cyproheptadine (Periactin)! Linka, posted by zzzz7 on September 25, 2009, at 21:12:53
I would think it would increase appetite like crazy - much like Remeron, which I was on in 2003 and it made me want to eat 24/7!!
Posted by desolationrower on September 26, 2009, at 3:20:34
In reply to Re: Lets discuss cyproheptadine (Periactin)! Linka, posted by jasmineneroli on September 25, 2009, at 21:21:12
well its even used for anorexics. i'd suggest taking it, sex (optional), then sleep. the short t1/2 is alos why its good for at night. but taking it in the day is going to make weight gain likely
-d/r
Posted by West on October 1, 2009, at 14:59:20
In reply to Re: Lets discuss cyproheptadine (Periactin)! Linka, posted by desolationrower on September 26, 2009, at 3:20:34
My experiences have been two-sided.
It helped produce a qualitatively deeper sleep than hypnotics while on ssris. At the same time it stopped the ssri working, thus worsening depression.
You might expect that from a drug described as antiserotonergic. Like too much of what's available, It's a toss-up.
Posted by Brainbeard on October 1, 2009, at 16:37:01
In reply to Re: Lets discuss cyproheptadine (Periactin)! Linka, posted by West on October 1, 2009, at 14:59:20
> It helped produce a qualitatively deeper sleep than hypnotics while on ssris. At the same time it stopped the ssri working, thus worsening depression.
>
> You might expect that from a drug described as antiserotonergic.Not quite. SSRI's are indirectly anti-serotonergic in their own ways. Long-term SRI treatment downregulates 5HT2A/C-receptors, which comes close to 5HT2A/C-antagonism. I've never heard that strong antiserotonergic drugs like mirtazapine (Remeron) or ziprasidon (Geodon) or Risperdal (all strong 5HT2A-antagonists) negate the antidepressant effectiveness of SSRI's. In fact, many of the older tricyclic antidepressants have both pro-serotonergic (SRI) and antiserotonergic (5HT2A-antagonism) actions, and the mix seems to work quite well. Stephen Stahl argues that SRI + 5HT2A-antagonism is a good combination.
So there might be an other reason why cyproheptadine can counter the antidepressant effect of an SSRI. There have been made some suggestions higher up in this thread.
Posted by West on October 2, 2009, at 5:22:50
In reply to Re: Lets discuss cyproheptadine (Periactin)! Linka, posted by Brainbeard on October 1, 2009, at 16:37:01
> > It helped produce a qualitatively deeper sleep than hypnotics while on ssris. At the same time it stopped the ssri working, thus worsening depression.
> >
> > You might expect that from a drug described as antiserotonergic.
>
> Not quite. SSRI's are indirectly anti-serotonergic in their own ways. Long-term SRI treatment downregulates 5HT2A/C-receptors, which comes close to 5HT2A/C-antagonism. I've never heard that strong antiserotonergic drugs like mirtazapine (Remeron) or ziprasidon (Geodon) or Risperdal (all strong 5HT2A-antagonists) negate the antidepressant effectiveness of SSRI's. In fact, many of the older tricyclic antidepressants have both pro-serotonergic (SRI) and antiserotonergic (5HT2A-antagonism) actions, and the mix seems to work quite well. Stephen Stahl argues that SRI + 5HT2A-antagonism is a good combination.
>
> So there might be an other reason why cyproheptadine can counter the antidepressant effect of an SSRI. There have been made some suggestions higher up in this thread.
>
>'stopped the ssri working' is interchangable with return of depression, since the ssri treats it.
I'll go and read through the thread now!
Posted by West on October 2, 2009, at 7:01:08
In reply to Lets discuss cyproheptadine (Periactin)! Linkadge?, posted by ed_uk on June 29, 2005, at 10:32:50
I had some periactin already, so after reading this last night decided to take some, thought it sounded good as I suffer from insomnia and night sweats.
I'd already taken it a bit ago and remembered it gave me depression. Well 2 pills last night made waking nearly impossible. Today I've been more depressed than in ages, people at the shops, everything around me, has been pissing me off. Horrible.
No way can anyone with severe depression afford to take this. It's not something to take lightly.
West
Posted by Brainbeard on October 2, 2009, at 12:58:47
In reply to Re: Lets discuss cyproheptadine (Periactin)! Linkadge?, posted by West on October 2, 2009, at 7:01:08
West, are you on any other antidepressant?
Although cyproheptadine is a weaker antihistaminergic than amitriptyline, if it knocks you out, some titration might not be a bad idea. You should perhaps start out with half a pill rather than two pills.
Also, couldn't the depressive effect simply be a rebound effect? Why not continue taking the cyproheptadine in the daytime (slowly titrating up, if necessary)? Only then would you give the drug a fair chance, I suppose.
Posted by West on October 4, 2009, at 8:20:42
In reply to Re: Lets discuss cyproheptadine (Periactin)! Linkadge?, posted by West on October 2, 2009, at 7:01:08
All I know is it is a terrible idea for me. I'm on effexor 225 (not the generic rubbish the Gp put me on originally). It has been by far and away the best thing i've taken for depression (severe melancholic)
I took one pill but it felt too subtle, so took another an hour later. Spent the following 2 days regretting it.
I'd done this a few months before and had forgotten how bad it was. Silly me.
Posted by Brainbeard on October 4, 2009, at 16:24:29
In reply to Re: Lets discuss cyproheptadine (Periactin)! Linkadge?, posted by West on October 4, 2009, at 8:20:42
> I'm on effexor 225 (not the generic rubbish the Gp put me on originally). It has been by far and away the best thing i've taken for depression (severe melancholic)
What other AD's have you tried? Any tricyclics? They have a track record of being superior meds for severe depression, especially imipramine and clomipramine.
If the Effexor is doing the job, there's no need for popping cyproheptadine indeed (except for satisfying curiosity..).
Do you sleep well on Effexor?
OMG, this thread is going off-topic..
Posted by West on October 6, 2009, at 14:38:02
In reply to Re: Lets discuss cyproheptadine (Periactin)! Linkadge?, posted by Brainbeard on October 4, 2009, at 16:24:29
> What other AD's have you tried? Any tricyclics? They have a track record of being superior meds for severe depression, especially imipramine and clomipramine.
thank you for the suggestions. I didn't do so well on dosulepin (dothiepin) which i think isn't the worst offender in terms of anticholinergic sfx.
> If the Effexor is doing the job, there's no need for popping cyproheptadine indeed (except for satisfying curiosity..).
Quite
> Do you sleep well on Effexor?
No, unfortunately I don't. This is causing quite a bit of sadness.
> OMG, this thread is going off-topic..
Yes, perhaps we should let it go here...Thanks for the interest.
Posted by Brainbeard on October 6, 2009, at 16:19:27
In reply to Re: Lets discuss cyproheptadine (Periactin)! Linkadge?, posted by West on October 6, 2009, at 14:38:02
> > Do you sleep well on Effexor?
>
> No, unfortunately I don't. This is causing quite a bit of sadness.
>
> > OMG, this thread is going off-topic..
>
> Yes, perhaps we should let it go here...Thanks for the interest.Off-topic is what spices up a thread. Don't sleep well eh? Must be the indirect 5HT2A-activation. Now, I've been having bad and restless sleep during my first years on Paxil, but in the last year on it, I began to sleep very deeply. Perhaps, after 5HT2A-receptors have been overstimulated long enough, they downregulate so much that eventually you get roughly the same effect as 5HT2A-antagonism..
It's too bad though that taking cyproheptadine at bedtime doesn't work well for you. You might try mirtazapine (Remeron) instead. Also a potent 5HT2A(and -C)-antagonist and a very potent antihistaminergic. Do fill up the fridge and buy some wider trousers..
Posted by Selection10 on October 7, 2009, at 16:24:56
In reply to Re: Lets discuss cyproheptadine (Periactin)! Linka, posted by West on October 1, 2009, at 14:59:20
I live in Canada and was wondering where I could get this as I've never seen it by any of the other antihistamines? I'm pretty sure it doesn't require a prescription right? Do I need to ask the pharmacist for it?
Posted by Brainbeard on October 8, 2009, at 6:44:04
In reply to Where can I get this?, posted by Selection10 on October 7, 2009, at 16:24:56
> I live in Canada and was wondering where I could get this as I've never seen it by any of the other antihistamines? I'm pretty sure it doesn't require a prescription right? Do I need to ask the pharmacist for it?
I was wondering about that too. I suspect though that in Holland, it IS a prescription drug, since officially its use is contraindicated because the drug's side-effects wouldn't outweigh its benefits. As an anti-allergic, that is, of course.. As a 5HT2A/C-antagonist, the balance may look very different! But the medical world only seems to look at a drug's label, not at what it's actually doing in the brain/body.
Posted by desolationrower on October 16, 2009, at 4:55:54
In reply to Where can I get this?, posted by Selection10 on October 7, 2009, at 16:24:56
well as an USian i bought it from canadian pharmacies OTC via internet. i would presume asking your phramacist would be the easiest
-d/r
Posted by yxibow on October 16, 2009, at 6:11:59
In reply to Re: Where can I get this?, posted by desolationrower on October 16, 2009, at 4:55:54
> well as an USian i bought it from canadian pharmacies OTC via internet. i would presume asking your phramacist would be the easiest
>
> -d/rIf you bought it from a real CIPA Canadian pharmacy, its prescription, in Canada. Generic.
This is the end of the thread.
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