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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 23 of 23. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Trans-Human on January 13, 2009, at 21:14:22
Hello all. A little background -
I was sectioned at 17 & placed on a lot of meds. I was discharged after around 4 months & shortly after successfully stopped all the meds.
Then at 21 I was again in hospital & placed on anti depressants & anti psychotics. I was on them longer this time - but again I successfully stopped them.
At 25 I was sectioned again & placed on 1200mg Amisulpride. I was like a zombie for a year - then I stopped them dead. I was sectioned again shortly after & put back on them. I refused them for a while & eventually agreed to a 200mg dose. 2 years passed, & at aged 28 I withdrew from them again over a 4 month period. I became very ill & psychosed & again went back on them. Next I tried a two year withdrawal. I ended up more ill than I have ever been. That was around 4 years ago now. I am now 35 (36 this year). After the last withdrawal attempt I went back on the 200mg Amisulpride. Around 3 years ago I dropped it to 175mg; which I am still on.
The last thing I want is to be ill again. But I really don;t want to be on this drug for life.
Has anyone here successfully stopped "Anti-psychotics" or specifically Amisulpride?
Does anyone have any suggestions - whatever they may be.
Thanks
Posted by Trans-Human on January 13, 2009, at 21:18:13
In reply to Amisulpride Withdrawal?, posted by Trans-Human on January 13, 2009, at 21:14:22
I have just noticed the "Withdrawal" section, after posting the above post; sorry, I'm new to this site.
Posted by sissy35 on January 13, 2009, at 22:46:10
In reply to Re: Amisulpride Withdrawal?, posted by Trans-Human on January 13, 2009, at 21:18:13
Thats ok I welcome you anyway. I hope you find the answers you are looking for and best of luck.
Sissy35
Posted by Phillipa on January 14, 2009, at 0:09:00
In reply to Re: Amisulpride Withdrawal?, posted by Trans-Human on January 13, 2009, at 21:18:13
May I ask what you're taking the amulsipride for? Haven't noticed any threads on withdrawing from this med on withdrawal. Of course could be wrong. Welcome to babble. Phillipa
Posted by Trans-Human on January 14, 2009, at 6:07:43
In reply to Re: Amisulpride Withdrawal? » Trans-Human, posted by Phillipa on January 14, 2009, at 0:09:00
I take it for "psychosis". From 11 - 28 I used a lot of street drugs. I drank heavily; smoked cannabis heavily; & used cocaine daily for years; & took large amounts of Exstacy, speed, mushrooms, ketamine, & various other drugs - you name it. I was in a active addiction for those 17 years. I have been in recovery for over the past 7 years. I had a slight slip around a couple of years ago; with alcohol & some weed; but have been T-Total again since.
At 17 I was diagnosed with "drug induced psychosis"
At 21 it was "psychotic depression"
At 25 it was the resurfacing of an unknown "psychotic illness"
At 26 it was "schizophrenia"
At 28 they said the schizophrenia was "miss-diagnosed" - due to the ethics of it being diagnosed while I was in active addiction.
At 31 the "schizophrenia" was reinstated.
Over the past 4 years I have been back under the LMHT (Local Mental Health Team) & I see a psychiatrist every 3-4 months - they usually change at each appointment. Other diagnoses which have been explored by them as maybe being more accurate have been - schizo affective disorder & a psychiatrist last year questioned the whole "label" of schizophrenia & said I wasn't presenting any symptoms. I only saw him once & the present psychiatrist is back with the "schizophrenia" label again.I take very little faith in what psychiatrists say; I think very little of them in general & think very little of orthodox psychiatry - which has been coloured by my experiences of the system.
Very simply - what I put my "condition" down to is this - Certain traumas around my birth & childhood; lead to certain emotional & mental conditions. I took to drugs early on; primarily as a way of dealing with emotional/mental pain; & to ease how I felt. At most this caused the psychosis; & at the least it exasperated it.
I strongly believe that I could have been far better helped through other more holistic methods; without such a focus on medication. & I feel I have been very damaged by the meds over the years; & made dependant on the Amisulpride. Long term I feel that these meds are doing me no good at all.
The reaction to each withdrawal off the Amisulpride; I put down to "withdrawal psychosis" & is not the result of any underlying condition - but rather a rebound effect in the brain from this drug.
Posted by Trans-Human on January 14, 2009, at 7:52:44
In reply to Re: Amisulpride Withdrawal?, posted by Trans-Human on January 14, 2009, at 6:07:43
Hi Phillipa
You may not have heard of "Amisulpride" as it is not approved for use by the FDA - I don't know why. If the posting here is predominantly American - that could be a reason.
Posted by Phillipa on January 14, 2009, at 12:22:23
In reply to Re: Amisulpride Withdrawal?, posted by Trans-Human on January 14, 2009, at 7:52:44
Acutally no a variety of countries. From Austrialia, New Zealand, England, Scandanavian Countries, All Over Europe, mexico. Phillipa
Posted by Sigismund on January 14, 2009, at 13:04:43
In reply to Re: Amisulpride Withdrawal?, posted by Trans-Human on January 14, 2009, at 6:07:43
>Very simply - what I put my "condition" down to is this - Certain traumas around my birth & childhood; lead to certain emotional & mental conditions. I took to drugs early on; primarily as a way of dealing with emotional/mental pain; & to ease how I felt. At most this caused the psychosis; & at the least it exasperated it.
>I strongly believe that I could have been far better helped through other more holistic methods; without such a focus on medication. & I feel I have been very damaged by the meds over the years; & made dependant on the Amisulpride. Long term I feel that these meds are doing me no good at all.
>The reaction to each withdrawal off the Amisulpride; I put down to "withdrawal psychosis" & is not the result of any underlying condition - but rather a rebound effect in the brain from this drug.
That all sounds very plausible to me.
What can you do apart from taking the bare minimum of amisulpride, whatever that is for you?
Posted by bleauberry on January 14, 2009, at 18:59:26
In reply to Amisulpride Withdrawal?, posted by Trans-Human on January 13, 2009, at 21:14:22
> The last thing I want is to be ill again. But I really don;t want to be on this drug for life.
>This statement has me confused. When you say you don't want to be ill again, that kind of implies that you are not terribly ill right now while on the drug. Which means the drug must be doing some sort of benefit, even if not perfect. You say you don't want to be on it for life. Why not? If your life is better with some med, this med or any med, why would someone want to not have that?
My mother could never understand why a friend of hers who did ok on her meds always wanted to stop her meds and she was so much worse without them.
None of us want to be on meds longterm. Neither do diabetics with their insulin meds, or heart patients with their heart meds, or hypertension patients with their blood meds, and on and on. Just be glad that at this time we have choices. Up until about 50 years ago, there were no choices. You either suffered with no help, you got sent to an insane institution for life where your only treatment was a cold hosing down, or you got burnt at the stake as being a crazy witch. Amisulpride, or any other med, that improves you from where you were, doesn't seem so bad to me. Maybe I'm wrong.
I'm sure some of the deterioration after the drug is withdrawal rebounds. But some of it is likely the original problem which is probably worse now years later than it was before. It is probably a mix of both, not either or.
Anyway, your statements confused me.
You might consider swithcing to a different med? Zyprexa? Abilify? Maybe in combination with an antidepressant since they do well with antipsychotics?
Posted by Trans-Human on January 14, 2009, at 19:15:59
In reply to Re: Amisulpride Withdrawal? » Trans-Human, posted by Sigismund on January 14, 2009, at 13:04:43
"That all sounds very plausible to me.
What can you do apart from taking the bare minimum of amisulpride, whatever that is for you?"
I do many things for a MH recovery. There are many things which I want to be doing; & many things to maintain. What I have found most benefit has been researching & applying more holistic understandings & methods, Jungian based primarily. I have found the practise of Reiki very helpful & received much in the way of "alternative" treatments, & worked with spiritual healers; who have facilitated a lot of healing.
I maintain a "12 step" recovery based method as well.
What I need to focus on I think is more - Regularity, Routine, self discipline, & self care. To address Tobacco addiction & stop smoking & focus on regular exercise - regular swimming & walking, weights; & a tai Chi Group. Addressing the "physical" would I think also have a correlated impact on my overall health & well being.
Posted by Trans-Human on January 14, 2009, at 19:55:57
In reply to Re: Amisulpride Withdrawal?, posted by bleauberry on January 14, 2009, at 18:59:26
bleauberry - "This statement has me confused. When you say you don't want to be ill again, that kind of implies that you are not terribly ill right now while on the drug. Which means the drug must be doing some sort of benefit, even if not perfect. You say you don't want to be on it for life. Why not? If your life is better with some med, this med or any med, why would someone want to not have that?"
The bigger picture is that I don't think my life is better on this med. It is too simplistic a view to say I'm OK on the meds & not OK off them. The genuine recovery & progress I have made has not come from meds.
My brain is dependant on this med for function - stopping this med indicates that what I am experiencing is a withdrawal effect - my experiences of withdrawal are in line with this being what is happening - rather than the experiences being primarily any underlying "illness".
Quote - "How can I tell the difference between withdrawal problems and relapse? There are three ways to tell if symptoms are the result of withdrawal, according to one expert, David Healy, who applied it to SSRIs in particular:
The problems begin immediately after reducing or stopping the drug. (If the original problem has been treated, it should be some time before the symptoms come back, if ever.)
The symptoms disappear if you go back on the drug, or raise the dose.
You are experiencing new symptoms as well as some of those that were a feature of your original condition (flu-like symptoms as well as depression, for instance).
These are the kind of withdrawal effects you might encounter:
Antipsychotics:
Withdrawal psychosis and tardive dyskinesia are two of the most serious problems. There could also be other less severe but still unpleasant effects to contend with: flu-like effects (nausea, vomiting, diarrhoea, headaches, chills, sweating, runny nose); movement problems (involuntary twitches, muscle spasms and tics); psychological effects (insomnia, anxiety, agitation, irritability, and psychosis, including hallucinations, delusions, confusion and disorientation). The psychological effects may be little different from the symptoms of the original problem, and it may be very hard to know for certain which it is.
Neuroleptic malignant syndrome is a very serious condition, which some people have developed on drug withdrawal. It can also occur as a side effect of the drugs. It can be life-threatening and involves changes in consciousness, abnormal movements and fever. It is important to seek medical treatment immediately" - Quote from MIND
Had I been given proper therapeutic support & proper help initially; then I do not now think I would presently be med dependant. These meds have the potential for very severe side effects & long term health risks - which increase with length of use. I presently have a number of disabling side effects from these meds. Looking at the bigger picture - is life better being dependant on a powerful mind/mood altering med of this kind?
If I cannot find a way of successfully getting med free - then it may well be a lesser of two evils to reluctantly stay on it; which I do for the time being anyway. It is very much the case that I know it is possible for people to get "med free" & have a better quality of life being med free. My hope is to eventually get off this med.
All my research & understandings are that many people can live perfectly well & healthily med free; & indeed many do.
Sorry I don't buy into what is spouted out to us by big pharma & orthodox psychiatry.
bleauberry - "None of us want to be on meds longterm. Neither do diabetics with their insulin meds, or heart patients with their heart meds, or hypertension patients with their blood meds, and on and on"
I don't understand the analogies? "Mental Illness" is wholly different to all of those conditions. Do Doctors tell their Diabetic patients that their condition is similar to Schizophrenia!? - to my mind such comparisons are silly stories to coerce people to take meds.
The biological basis to "Schizophrenia" has never been proved. It is false to compare it to other "Biological" conditions & relate them in similarity on that basis.
bleauberry - "I'm sure some of the deterioration after the drug is withdrawal rebounds. But some of it is likely the original problem which is probably worse now years later than it was before. It is probably a mix of both, not either or."
How do you know it is not all withdrawal?
Possibly there is some truth in what you say. But I don't go with the general perception of progressive mental ill health - statistically the majority of people often do recover; & have the real potential to recover; Med Free - if given half a chance. This fact is being reflected more & more in treatment services - especially in countries with more progressive mental health services; including Scandinavian areas as example.
bleauberry - "You might consider swithcing to a different med? Zyprexa? Abilify? Maybe in combination with an antidepressant since they do well with antipsychotics?"
Why would I want to take more drugs? & why an anti depressant - I'm not depressed! I have no desire to mess around with meds. The long term aim; hope & eventual goal is to get med free.
Sorry to have confused you - I posted the OP to ask for assistance in the best way of withdrawing from Amisulpride & if anyone here had done so?
Posted by Trans-Human on January 14, 2009, at 20:15:13
In reply to Re: Amisulpride Withdrawal?, posted by bleauberry on January 14, 2009, at 18:59:26
"You might consider swithcing to a different med? Zyprexa? Abilify? Maybe in combination with an antidepressant since they do well with antipsychotics?"
On average - people administered anti-psychotics will live on average 30 years less than those not given anti psychotics. Even with these dire statistics there is still a chance of sudden death on these types of drugs - & common enough to be considered a real risk. Then factor in obesity, diabetes, Tardive Dyskinesia, gastro intesinal disorders, potential of life-long drug dependance on these chemicals, severe sexual dysfunction; & a whole host of short & long term side effects & health risks.
Do these risks & effects justify the wide-scale use of meds? Is this a fair trade?
I am not saying that biological psychiatry does not have a place; it does. But there should be far more empthasis on individual choice of treatments & access to more theraputic, holistic, & psychological/spiritual methods of recovery - many of which show a wealth of evidence of being highly effective.
I am not saying that people should stop taking meds. I have never suggested to anyone that they do. I didn't have a choice in being put on meds. I was offered virtually nothing else in relation to treatment. It has taken 20 odd years to finally be given limited psychological help.
Some people are best helped by meds - but I do think that the majority could be far better helped by other means. I don't know categorically that in my case meds have been what I have needed; & even if I had been given comprehensive "alternative" help - then maybe it would still have been best to have been given a med. I don't know.
I try to be as accepting as I can of this med; but I don't think I'll be on it for life - & I hope I won't be.
There is a very good & balanced article on the subject of Meds here -
Posted by Phillipa on January 14, 2009, at 20:56:33
In reply to Re: Amisulpride Withdrawal?, posted by Trans-Human on January 14, 2009, at 20:15:13
All I know is my pdoc who's now diagnosed me with Gad has said come off ad's continue benzos and then try alternative treatments as meds don't help me. I couldn't take antipsychotic anyway as diabetes runs rampant in my family. Phillipa
Posted by Trans-Human on January 14, 2009, at 21:04:26
In reply to Re: Amisulpride Withdrawal? » Trans-Human, posted by Phillipa on January 14, 2009, at 20:56:33
> All I know is my pdoc who's now diagnosed me with Gad has said come off ad's continue benzos and then try alternative treatments as meds don't help me. I couldn't take antipsychotic anyway as diabetes runs rampant in my family. Phillipa
Sounds like you have a good doctor.
Posted by Phillipa on January 14, 2009, at 21:22:03
In reply to Re: Amisulpride Withdrawal?, posted by Trans-Human on January 14, 2009, at 21:04:26
Thank-you first person to say that. Love Phillipa
Posted by Trans-Human on January 15, 2009, at 4:57:19
In reply to Re: Amisulpride Withdrawal? » Trans-Human, posted by Phillipa on January 14, 2009, at 21:22:03
> Thank-you first person to say that. Love Phillipa
Have you tried ACT (Acceptance & Commitment Therapy)
http://www.actforanxiety.com/ACTforAnxiety_Study_Index.html
I am enrolled on the above course for free - they have sent me a study guide (which can be bought from Amazon) It is helping. All I have to do is to fill in regular assessments on the web site.
Personally I have found Reiki to be very helpful; I have also had Bowen, Indian Head Massage, Acupuncture, Hopi Ear Candles, Shiatsu Massage, Homoeopathy, Cranial Osteopathy, & others.
I am myself a fully trained Reiki practitioner; & also trained in the "Cartouche" system of healing.
I try to meditate as much as I can - & I have found that to be very helpful. I would like to do more regular meditation practice.
I have received an enormous amount of benefit from exploring these "alternative" practices.
Posted by SLS on January 15, 2009, at 7:49:07
In reply to Re: Amisulpride Withdrawal?, posted by bleauberry on January 14, 2009, at 18:59:26
Hi T-H.
It is hard for me not to appreciate your sentiments and Bleuberry's both. I have been there. Who wants to be tethered to a drug? However, I choose to remain on medication and feel better rather than to try other methods and feel terrible in the interim. I have tried things like food allergy rotations, megadoses of food supplements, exercise, herbs, antibiotic therapy, and a few other things that I'm sure escape my memory. And I felt terrible.
It doesn't have to be black-or-white. Why don't you stay on a medication that helps while you investigate alternative treatments? Once you establish the alternative treatment, you can try to reduce the dosage of the drug gradually and see if the alternative treatment is adequate. The more abruptly you discontinue a drug, the greater are your chances of rebound relapse. Remaining open-minded and flexible should have value while you continue to pursue your health.
- Scott
Posted by Trans-Human on January 15, 2009, at 8:33:14
In reply to Re: Amisulpride Withdrawal?, posted by SLS on January 15, 2009, at 7:49:07
> Hi T-H.
>
> It is hard for me not to appreciate your sentiments and Bleuberry's both. I have been there. Who wants to be tethered to a drug? However, I choose to remain on medication and feel better rather than to try other methods and feel terrible in the interim. I have tried things like food allergy rotations, megadoses of food supplements, exercise, herbs, antibiotic therapy, and a few other things that I'm sure escape my memory. And I felt terrible.
>
> It doesn't have to be black-or-white. Why don't you stay on a medication that helps while you investigate alternative treatments? Once you establish the alternative treatment, you can try to reduce the dosage of the drug gradually and see if the alternative treatment is adequate. The more abruptly you discontinue a drug, the greater are your chances of rebound relapse. Remaining open-minded and flexible should have value while you continue to pursue your health.
>
>
> - Scott
>
>
Thanks Scott - yes; you are right. I have tried the herbal & supplement route as well at one stage; saw a nutritionist, spent a lot of money & didn't feel any different.You are right that these circumstances around meds are not black & white. I try to have a balance & keep an open mind around these things. My last "withdrawal" off this med was a 2 year detox. Recently over the past year I have tried slight reductions; & very quickly felt ill - so I have re upped the med.
I have finally been able to see a competent psychologist. I saw them today again. They have been a great help; I wish I had been given this help some 20 years ago. So far I have had around 7 sessions with them. They are leaving the practise in around 3 months - after then it will be the odd follow up appointment - such is funding on the NHS. I have 7 more appointments between now & then; to make the most of & try to get at more of the core of some issues I have.
I am hoping that at some stage the circumstances of my life will be that I have an opportunity to be able to try another controlled & gradual withdrawal; & be in a position; & with the "right" support to manage & deal with that; & with what comes up. It can be done, as well as people in my life, I also know people on-line who have got med free & I have read & heard of many others who have achieved this; so I know that it is potentially possible to do successfully.
I have always felt that meeting the "right" partner could make a big difference to me. I know the arguments around the potential difference in the reality; of thinking like that.
For the time being I plod on & continue with the tablets & accept that it is probably best for the moment to keep taking them.
Posted by Phillipa on January 15, 2009, at 20:27:25
In reply to Re: Amisulpride Withdrawal?, posted by Trans-Human on January 15, 2009, at 8:33:14
Trans had an osteopath who was also pdoc and before each session he did therphy also he liked his patients to receive an hour of massage it was so relaxing. I do know a girl who had breast cancer and last day of chemo was running on the beach as she saw an accupuncturist. So do believe it is very helpful to also use alternative. Phillipa. ps nutrients don't seem to help me so far and finances don't allow for more. Phillipa
Posted by desolationrower on January 16, 2009, at 1:08:09
In reply to Re: Amisulpride Withdrawal?, posted by SLS on January 15, 2009, at 7:49:07
I think it is the 12step ideology & your past drug addiction making you think using this drug is bad. i think you're overmoralizing.
-d/r
Posted by Sigismund on January 16, 2009, at 1:17:12
In reply to Re: Amisulpride Withdrawal?, posted by desolationrower on January 16, 2009, at 1:08:09
Then there is the question of how amisulpride withdrawal would work.
As you get below 150mg it could become more stimulating, especially when below 100mg/d??
Posted by Trans-Human on January 16, 2009, at 6:53:17
In reply to Re: Amisulpride Withdrawal?, posted by desolationrower on January 16, 2009, at 1:08:09
> I think it is the 12step ideology & your past drug addiction making you think using this drug is bad. i think you're overmoralizing.
>
> -d/rPartly yes; but I have always had these views around meds & orthodox psychiatry - long before I got clean & practised 12 step. & it does come back to the questions of - how healthy are these drugs? & are there more healthy ways of recovery?
Posted by Trans-Human on January 16, 2009, at 7:16:34
In reply to Re: Amisulpride Withdrawal?, posted by Sigismund on January 16, 2009, at 1:17:12
> Then there is the question of how amisulpride withdrawal would work.
>
> As you get below 150mg it could become more stimulating, especially when below 100mg/d??This is what I think was happening on the last withdrawal. Even on this present 175mg dose - I often feel that the effect of this drug is more stimulating; in a way than sedative. I have discussed this with the psych & I now take it in the mornings instead of at night.
Last time I tried a detox from it I went from 200mg - 0mg over two years. Initially I dropped fast. Dropping from 50mg - 0mg was well over 6 months. I have questioned whether this very slow drop taking tiny amounts was not simply prolonging the withdrawal & withdrawal effects.
Maybe a plan would be to drop 25mg at a time - say every 3-4 months - Or maybe drop 25mg initially - then at 50mg drops; & go from 50mg - 0mg ?
From past experience & attempts, the critical problems appear to have been stress related; or stress caused. From there I get anxiety & from there I get difficulty sleeping & lack of sleep - which feeds the anxiety & racing mind & snowballs into psychosis. At each attempt in the past to come off this drug I have had a lot of stresses in my life at the time. Including housing problems & all sorts. To withdraw I do need peace & quiet & low stress levels. I have in past attempts also been reluctant to take anything else to take the edge off things. I am no longer so strict. I can get hold of diazepam for sleep, & I can also get a limited prescription for Olanzapine 10mg, if I get an off day. I do not, however, want to get reliant on them. Over the past year I have taken valium on around 3 occasions to help with sleep. I have a months supply of Olanzapine in the cupboard; which I have had for months - I have had no need to take any.
The psychiatrist I see every 3-4 months, & very often they change each time. Many have been in agreement to a reduction. I have had attempts since the last withdrawal. I am hoping that they are going to sort out a regular "long term" psychiatrist. My present psych is trying to sort this out - hopefully they will be good & be of assistance.
This is the end of the thread.
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