![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 31 to 55 of 55. Go back in thread:
Posted by linkadge on October 23, 2007, at 20:11:06
In reply to Re: That Way Lies Madness » linkadge, posted by Squiggles on October 23, 2007, at 14:41:02
>Really? Depression and bipolar disorders and >schizophrenia all have a majority of age onset.
>In this respect they are very much like other >genetically-keyed biological developments. One >example, is adolescence and all the hormonal >changes attending that period. It is usually >between 10-14. In the case of schizophrenia, >around 18, in bipolar around 28, in depression, >can be any time, but usually earlier than the >above. Alzheimer's and Parkinson's, later in >life, usually above 50.But how does that show that these individuals are doomed to destruction should they choose other routes for healing?
>That's because we don't know everything yet. >Some illnesses are successfully treated because >they have found the right drug. That took years >of research.No it didn't. It took a few accidental discoveries.
>Taking nothing at all is worse than taking >something that has some effect, though not the >best effect.Not necessarily.
>These illnesses may be cyclical but they do not >terminate like the flu. They are brain diseases >which must be corrected, like meningitis, or >enchephalitis, for example.Thats simply not true. There has not yet been one idetified gene or biological abnormalty which yet predicts that an individual will, with 100% assurance, get a disease. There is a gene/environment interaction. For instance, did you know that turmeric almost abolshes the development of alzheimer's plaques in mice who are genetically engineered to develop such plaques? Turmeric is not a drug, but in such models it can clearly prevent the development of a genetic "likelyhood". Seeing as we don't know the exact etilogy of such mental illnesses, we cannot say that our medications infact do anything for the root cause, let alone say that an individual cannot recover without them.
>That's because the majority do not improve. Once >you have manic-depression, your brain has >changed neurologically. It doesn't go back to >its pre-sick stage through a miracle or on its >own.Says who? Even if this is true, lithium doesn't cure bipolar disorder either. There are a number of people who manage their bipolar disorder with things like taurine and omega-3. But I suppose these people are quacks, and they never really had bipolar. You know, agents like omega-3 and taurine are studied at Harvard, but I suppose the guys at Harvard are quacks too who apparently like wasting their time studying agents with zero potential to treat Bipolar just because they like randomly wasting their time.
>You may suffer something else which is >misdiagnosed, resulting from stress, and that >group will be used by the anti-psychiatry >brigade to prove their point. But that group is >small and an exception.
Again, since we have no idea what causes depression we have no idea how it is to be cured or how it will recover. The drug Tianeptine is a perfect example. It works exactly the opposite to how conventional antidepressants work (ie it enhances the reuptake of serotonin), yet it is a clinically effective antidepressant. Oftentimes more effective than SSRI's. So basically, the "low serotonin" theory is bunk. So again, we've shown ourselves that we still don't know how antidepressants work. Therefore we cannot really say that people's claims about their recovery is bunk either. Turmeric is more potent in the forced swim test than is fluoxetine. Its not antipsychiatry, its just looking at options which psychiatry chooses to ignore. Its just like SJW. If it were a drug, it could be approved based on the number of studies in which it has already been shown sucessfull. Psychiatry doesn't care about it though. Taking SJW is not antipsychiatry.
>Remitting, only when it is exogenously causes, >as in grief for example. If it is a brain >change, it's a crapshoot to wait and see if and >when there will be a self-healing process of the >brain.
Actually thats not true. It has been known for a long time, that even severe endogenious depression will usually get better on its own within about a year. And again, the word "endogenious" is really untestable seeing as there we have *zero* tests to identify endogenious depression.
>Dramatic -- you give credit to bean sprouts, but >not to a genetic predisposition to some of these >problems. Diet and exercise help, but blood >pressure and cholesterol are not mental >disorders, though they like everything else in >the body can effect the brain.Your argument is making no sence. Mental illness is a medical disorder like is high blood pressure. If one can positivly influence one by diet, then it stands to reason that one might be able to affect the other with dietary manipulation. The etiology of schizophrenia could be highly dependant on oxidative processes. There was a recent study which showed that a diet of omega-3 and antioxidants prevented progression of schizophrenia prodrome more effectivly than olanzapine in "at risk" teens.
>Well, go ahead and exercise. In mixed states and >mania, some patients exercised themselves to >death because they could not stop. That's called >psycho-motor agitation.
Did I recomend exercise for mania?? Obviously not.
>Your references may be good clinical articles, >and exercise is good for anyone, but years of >medical research have been devoted to treating >with medication. I would exercising as a cure is >not mainstream. But if it helps you, you are >lucky.
I don't understand the above paragraph. Exercise for depression is actually very mainstream.
Linkadge
Posted by Squiggles on October 23, 2007, at 20:19:39
In reply to Re: That Way Lies Madness, posted by linkadge on October 23, 2007, at 20:11:06
Linkadge,
Are you really interested in alleviating the
horrible suffering of mental illness, or are
you trying to introduce new methods which have
not been tested on many people?You may never have experienced any of these
states, because i think that if you did, you
would either have more compassion, or rush
to the nearest pharmacy for anything to escape
the states people can fall into.Maybe they should train doctors with simulation
modules of these states. Mental illness is
a serious business, not to be taken lightly and
as part of general good health exercises.Squiggles
Posted by linkadge on October 23, 2007, at 20:21:06
In reply to Re: That Way Lies Madness, posted by unbottled on October 23, 2007, at 15:06:06
>The problem is that some folks are
>nostalgic for nineteenth century non-answers.
>Accusations of meds takers as "sitting on
>their behinds" is a dead giveaway.The 20th century is full of nonanswers too.
I never said that med-takers were sitting on their behinds. I said that those who claim that exercise has no impact on the course of depressive illness were probably using this as an excuse to sit on their behinds.
>Yes, we're finding that bottom-up improvement
>of the body improves the brain / mind to a
>surprising degree. But this is nothing compared
>to the improvements that can happen as a direct
>result of taking medications that correct
>actual imbalances in the brain / mind.Well, again. Seeing as no definitive chemical imballances have yet been identified, one cannot make the assumption that medications are correcting any imballences. Diabeties is not depression. The "low serotonin" hypothesis is used to give biochemical depression credability. No such imballence in serotonin is repeatedly provable in depresson. There is little to no proof that antidepressants correct the specific imballences that exist in depression, in the way that insulin treats diabeties. Antidepressants treat the symptoms, but they may or may not be treating the disease.
>Squiggles is right to be angry. Sometimes
>meds are only a crutch, but you don't kick the
>crutch away because you want suffering to
>be proof of wicked behavior.I never told *anybody* not to take their meds. The only thing that got me angry was when Squiggles claimes that people who are able to get better without medication never infact had true depression. I hate when people make depression into a "ingroup outgroup bias". "I'm sicker than you are" bla bla bla.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on October 23, 2007, at 20:28:03
In reply to Re: That Way Lies Madness » unbottled, posted by Squiggles on October 23, 2007, at 15:18:15
>I picked up on the "sit on your *ss and just
>take meds -- easy way out" line too.Again, thats not what I said. Siting on one's behind and taking meds is not really the best approach either.
a) I am not saying that exercise is the only
treatment for depression
b) I am not saying that it is more effective
than other treatments
c) I am not saying that exercise will cure
everbodyI am simply responding to the proposition made by Squiggles that people who are able to get better from depression with alternative approaches never really had depression to begin with.
The reason I was making a case for exercise, was to try and show that just because it is not a mediction doesn't mean it cannot do some pretty impressive things for the brain, and depression.
I cannot fathom why sombody would try to discount a treatment with which somebody improved, or to try and diminish the sevarity of their suffering becuase they happened to improve with alternative approaches.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on October 23, 2007, at 20:32:47
In reply to Re: That Way Lies Madness, posted by Jamal Spelling on October 23, 2007, at 16:42:45
>I quite agree. Ironically this thread was >started writing that pharmaceuticals are the >only way to treat mental illness, that it is >wrong to discontinue a pharmaceutical regimen, >that other treatments are useless, and that >people who suggest differently should **** ***. >Or something to that effect.
>I am not aware that the use of pharmaceuticals >was discouraged anywhere in this thread.
Exactly my point. I don't know why people get so defensive when somebody says they got better without meds. Do they think that the fact that some people can improve without meds infringes on the validity of their suffering? Do they they think that sombody else's improvement off meds is somehow an accusation of their own choice of treatment?
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on October 23, 2007, at 20:39:34
In reply to Re: That Way Lies Madness » Jamal Spelling, posted by Squiggles on October 23, 2007, at 16:51:48
>Well, i'm not really angry. I am sorry
>my writing comes across that way. If i
>remember exercise, and vitamins and
>stuff like that was being proposed as
>an alternative to meds for mental illness.Yes. Actually vitamins, exercise, and other supplements are possable alternatives to treating mental illness. They may not work for everyone but they can help some.
>As for the causes, there may some as you say >which are not endogenous, and a preliminary >study into that is usually part of the course.
There is *zero* way to conclusivly separate exogenious depression from endogenious deprssion.
Even people with a high genetic load for depression, an environmental trigger is usually present.>I would like to my faith in doctors though, and >say that when they see what looks like manic->depression, it IS manic-depression, and the med >works, then that is the best you can get from >mental health care today.
That doesn't necessarily mean that the individual make the best treatment choice. Its not just antipsychiatry people who might want alternatives. It might be people who can't tollerate certain side effects, or those who don't want their kidneys or thyroid damaged etc etc.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on October 23, 2007, at 20:44:19
In reply to Re: That Way Lies Madness » Squiggles, posted by Jamal Spelling on October 23, 2007, at 17:29:04
>I have ever taken was a supplement called SAMe. >The effects were dramatic and pronounced, far >more so than the Zoloft, Celexa and Wellbutrin >that I have used over the years. As far as I'm >aware, SAMe is a prescription antidepressant in >Italy, so it's a case of one man's terrorist >being another man's freedom fighter.
Good example. SJW too is a prescription in Germany and is prescribed more often than fluoxetine. SAMe has been studied in some of the most severe depressions.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on October 23, 2007, at 20:47:14
In reply to Re: That Way Lies Madness » Squiggles, posted by Jamal Spelling on October 23, 2007, at 18:03:21
You say what I am trying to say in much fewer words.
Use of SAMe is not 19th century. Neither is the use of things like methylfolate. Actually, the use of lithium for mental illness is like in B.C. times.
Linkadge
Posted by Squiggles on October 23, 2007, at 20:50:51
In reply to Re: That Way Lies Madness, posted by linkadge on October 23, 2007, at 20:39:34
>
> That doesn't necessarily mean that the individual make the best treatment choice.Yes, it does. Doctors see thousands of patients
with similar conditions and try all the
armamentarium of drugz (boy that word is ugly,lol);Its not just antipsychiatry people who might want alternatives.
There may be the unlucky ones, the ones who have been misdiagnosed, the religious, and the well-read experimenters (like i used to be).
It might be people who can't tolerate certain side effects, or those who don't want their kidneys or thyroid damaged etc etc.
That's a sloppy reference to lithium. The thyroid is affected and so can be the kidneys.
In my case and in many cases, you can take lithium for life. Let me just add here for those who are taking in long-term, my suspicion for my relatively good tolerance-- i drink a LOT of water.Squiggles
Posted by linkadge on October 23, 2007, at 21:06:50
In reply to Re: That Way Lies Madness » linkadge, posted by Squiggles on October 23, 2007, at 20:19:39
>Are you really interested in alleviating the
>horrible suffering of mental illness, or are
>you trying to introduce new methods which have
>not been tested on many people?The reason that many of the mentioned treatments have not been tested is that there is no money for such research. Drug companies don't care much either nowadays about helping people, its about $. If lithium were not approved by now for bipolar, it probably wouldn't be. Things have changed since lithium was approved. Back then, Big Pharma didn't exist as we know it now.
There is increasing patient experience with such treatments. Even STEPBD, used inositol to compare to risperidal in the treatment of bipoalar depression. Can you guess what STEPBD found in this study?
Patient exposure to such agents can take many forms. The FDA does not know everything. How do you think we learn more about potential future treatments? If every time somebody claimed to get better on something that wasn't FDA approved was called a quack, we woudn't really get any new treatments now would we?
Somtimes too, the picture of approved treatments is not completely truthful or accurate. Lamotrigine is used for bipolar depression dispite only being marginally sucessful in like 2 out of 15 trials. Antidepressants often fail to outperform placebo.
>You may never have experienced any of these
>states, because i think that if you did, you
>would either have more compassion, or rush
>to the nearest pharmacy for anything to escape
>the states people can fall into.Again, you really don't know what you are talking about by making a claim like that. I am not going to be taunted into a game of "my disease is worse than your disease". I know where I've been, and thats all that matters.
Again, I never acused anybody's decision to take medications. I just simply said that some people can get better without medicaitons, and this doesn't conclusivly cast judgement on the sevarity of their desease.
>Maybe they should train doctors with simulation
>modules of these states. Mental illness is
>a serious business, not to be taken lightly and
>as part of general good health exercises.I never said it was a simple disease. Some alternative treatments are powerful. Like Jamal said, SAMe is strong stuff.
Linkadge
Posted by elanor roosevelt on October 23, 2007, at 21:14:18
In reply to Re: That Way Lies Madness » linkadge, posted by Squiggles on October 23, 2007, at 20:50:51
I find exercize most useful when I am very busy running from my demons. Gets me back into my body(as in not stuck in my head trip)
That said, I struggle with medications because I know the depression will kill me if I can't keep it under control. I am not a suicidal person. But the brain chemistry in my family if untreated or treated with the family drug of choice: alcohol, kills people off. I think it just wears everything away.Could I be better without meds?
I wish I could.
Does exercize help?
Absolutely.
The thing about execize is you have to get out of bed and walk out your door.I know where the madness lies and i will tip toe around it as best i can
Posted by linkadge on October 23, 2007, at 21:16:42
In reply to Re: That Way Lies Madness » linkadge, posted by Squiggles on October 23, 2007, at 20:50:51
>Yes, it does. Doctors see thousands of patients
>with similar conditions and try all the
>armamentarium of drugz (boy that word is >ugly,lol);No it doesn't. One can never know if they made the best decision. That is an impossable thing to say unless somebody has literally tried every possable treatment known to man which is impossible.
Again doctors don't know everything. They push drugs for bipolar disorder that have very little cumulative patient exposure. Zyprexa and risperidal were magic bullits for bipolar, but doctors didn't know that they gave you diabeties. So if a doctor gives you zyprexa, he has to have made the absolutely optimal decision? Why?
In the 50's doctors used amphetamines for the same types of crippling depression we see today. Were these patients treated optimally? I know, I know.. that was then and this is now, right?
>There may be the unlucky ones, the ones who have >been misdiagnosed, the religious, and the well->read experimenters (like i used to be).
Again, you are not really making logical sence. Just because a patient seeks alternatives doesn't mean that the patient has been diagnosed incorrectly.
Linkadge
Posted by Deputy Racer on October 23, 2007, at 21:28:27
In reply to Re: That Way Lies Madness, posted by linkadge on October 23, 2007, at 21:16:42
Hi, everyone. I'd just like to remind you all that there are guidelines about posting here, including not making assumptions about others.
It's about respecting each other. There are a variety of pathways to relief, and no matter what we think of some of those paths privately, here on the board we are required to show respect for all of them. Those who fail to do so are blocked from posting, especially if they have already been warned.
I'd also like to point out that it's sometimes better to walk away in these situations. In this case, I don't think anyone's mind will be changed in this thread, and it might be a good place to practice that option.
Deputy Racer
Who really does not want to take any more action on this thread.
Posted by Phillipa on October 23, 2007, at 21:40:36
In reply to Friendly Reminder to All, posted by Deputy Racer on October 23, 2007, at 21:28:27
It seems like an agree to disagree to me. Phillipa
Posted by War-Face on October 23, 2007, at 22:54:16
In reply to Re: Friendly Reminder to All, posted by Phillipa on October 23, 2007, at 21:40:36
I personally think it's an extremely healthy and interesting discussion.
Posted by Dr. Bob on October 24, 2007, at 1:38:04
In reply to Re: Please be civil » Deputy Racer, posted by Squiggles on October 23, 2007, at 18:30:05
Posted by Questionmark on October 24, 2007, at 2:00:34
In reply to Re: Friendly Reminder to All, posted by War-Face on October 23, 2007, at 22:54:16
Sorry i just read a few other posts in lower part of thread that i hadn't yet and now i realize that this post i wrote here/below is pretty much unneeded and redundant. Sorry. Darn it. What am i DOING?!! I SHOULD BE IN BED!!! This is why i try to avoid this site anymore. I always obsessively read and compulsively write & post in it, and waste far too much time. Whycantwehaveasmuchtimeaswewant? Anyway, again sorry.
_________________________________________________
I agree that this is an interesting and, overall, healthy discussion, although some of you guys should probably be a little more... i dunno, understanding, of the others.
Overall, I'd have to say I agree with a great majority of what Linkadge is saying. I think you have to be careful in how you say some things, though, Linkadge. For instance, though I understand what you're saying, I think the "sitting on their behinds" statement was a little insensitive, or at least, lacking of tact-- no offense.
Linkadge is absolutely right that exercise is basically an antidepressant in its own right, and that if you could put its benefits in a pill it would sell better than any other drug, antidepressant or otherwise. He's right too in that just because a person with a "mental illness" (i'm not sure how i feel about that term, but i'll use it) gets better even fully better through exercise or a healthy lifestyle that does NOT mean that s/he did not really have a mental illness. And personally I would be deeply offended if i were one of those people by a statement suggesting that. Furthermore, many of us-- myself included-- probably do (to some varying extent and largely in some subconscious way) relieve some of our guilt in not doing many of the things we should or want to do (e.g. exercise) by thinking that our "Mental Illness" is too serious to be significantly helped by healthy lifestyle changes and powerful DRUGS are our only hope. And this is also often to our detriment. But I do think Linkadge could have been a bit more sensitive/tactful in saying that and not making it sound like every m. ill person is basically just too lazy to make themselves feel better. I really don't think that's what he meant, but i could see how it could come across that way somewhat.
Nevertheless, what he was saying about the benefits of exercise was extremely noteworthy. We should all by trying to take the medication of exercise. No it would almost definitely not *cure* everyone, but it would eventually probably *help* all of us, and even cure some.
And I also think what Linkadge had to say about "alternative" therapies being deemed inadequate or nonmedical (etc.) was an excellent collection of points. A summarized interjection: If alternative therapies and healthy lifestyle suggestions were as profitable as pharmaceuticals are, the mentally ill world as a whole would be phenomenally, phenOMenally better off-- and with almost infinitely fewer side effects.
Bottom line to all of this in my opinion....
Drugs should be avoided whenever possible (*particularly* daily use) and taken in lowest possible effective doses (usually much lower than often prescribed imo). Drugs are also way overprescribed. And we would be much better off if our nations as wholes researched and utilized healthier alternative therapies, and when appropriate prescribed/suggested and used them before pharmaceutical intervention. *Nevertheless*-- some people (myself included, at least so far) absolutely need these horrible-yet-sometimes-blessed drugs to get by. And everyone should be cautious before telling someone that he or she isn't one of those people.
... P.S. I forgot one other thing i wanted to say and that is: The fact that many people cannot get off their drugs without feeling monumentally worse than even BEFORE getting on the drugs.. is I think a strike against the drugs and not for them. They alter your brain in ways we cannot fully understand (at least yet). They do not cure. They do not at ALL necessarily-- and probably rarely if ever-- correct a specific chemical imbalance, as Linkadge also already pointed out. They are simply an unfortunate necessity for many people.
Posted by Questionmark on October 24, 2007, at 2:05:43
In reply to Re: That Way Lies Madness, posted by linkadge on October 23, 2007, at 20:39:34
This is such a great point, and one which everyone should understand:
"There is *zero* way to conclusivly separate exogenious depression from endogenious deprssion."
...
(PS i think correct terms are exogenous and endogenous but maybe theyre right too).
Posted by Squiggles on October 24, 2007, at 7:20:18
In reply to Re: That Way Lies Madness, posted by elanor roosevelt on October 23, 2007, at 21:14:18
I find exercise helpful in states of anxiety.
I have a leg/tendon injury which prevents me
from exercising as much as i used to, but i
can do much. I walk everywhere instead of
taking the car.Squiggles
Posted by Squiggles on October 24, 2007, at 7:27:17
In reply to Re: That Way Lies Madness, posted by linkadge on October 23, 2007, at 21:16:42
>
> In the 50's doctors used amphetamines for the same types of crippling depression we see today. Were these patients treated optimally? I know, I know.. that was then and this is now, right?Actually, i've always thought they SHOULD give
amphetamines or cocaine for depression-- they
just have to watch for addiction.>
> >There may be the unlucky ones, the ones who have >been misdiagnosed, the religious, and the well->read experimenters (like i used to be).
>
> Again, you are not really making logical sence. Just because a patient seeks alternatives doesn't mean that the patient has been diagnosed incorrectly.
>
I am making sense. I'm saying that in instead of
listening to their drs. the patients who try alternatives are
- the unlucky ones
or
- the misdiagnosed
-
or
- those whose religion is against meds
or
- those who experiment because they can'
stand the side effect anymore;It would be nice to see a study on how many who have taken the "alternative" route have succeeded.
Squiggles
Posted by linkadge on October 24, 2007, at 14:05:50
In reply to Re: That Way Lies Madness » linkadge, posted by Squiggles on October 24, 2007, at 7:27:17
I need to clarify my "siting on the couch comment" again. I appologise if it came across the wrong way.
Let me give an example to clarify what I mean.
My father has high blood pressure and high cholseterol. The doctor gave him meds to treat this, and hinted that there might be a genetic basis for his high cholesterol.
He makes absolutely no attempt to modify his diet, instead making statments like "it doesn't matter what I eat cause my cholsertol issue is genetic". Most people can see that this is not the best approach.
It is highly likely that some dietary modification would greatly augment the effects of the medications. However, he uses what the doctor suggested as a licence not to bother looking for other ways to help his disease.
This is what I was hinting at. That some people use the (currently highly unrefined)genetic/biological basis of their illenss as a licence to be closedminded to a varienty of other treatment possabilities. Sometimes this manifests as "I won't try therapy, cause my disease is biological", or "I won't bother to try exercising as my disease is biological". I realize this type of mindset is only a subset of those suffering from depression.
* I am not suggesting that everybody who takes medications is lazy or that they sit on the couch all day popping pills etc.What I was trying to say is that I don't understand people who adimently hold to the genetic biological basis of their illness as a means of avoiding looking to other possable causes. I pesonally believe that genetic or not, people who embrace a variety of possable treatment angles and tools generally achieve the most enduring and satisfactory results.
If you can take a pill, and never have another problem again, then all the power to you, but since most people do not fall into that category, I don't know why people would be so closedminded to a multifaceted approach.
Linkadge
Posted by Racer on October 24, 2007, at 14:45:41
In reply to Re: That Way Lies Madness, posted by linkadge on October 24, 2007, at 14:05:50
> I appologise if it came across the wrong way.
>Thank you for apologizing.
I agree with the general point that all sorts of things help with depression -- as well as things like cholesterol levels -- but I have a very bad habit of blaming myself for all the things I don't do to help myself. I blame myself that I don't exercise more, since I believe it would help me, and that just leads deeper into my depression. When I read your first post on the subject, it gave me more ammunition to use against myself, and I don't necessarily need more of that.
I really appreciate your taking the time to clarify what you wrote.
Posted by tecknohed on October 24, 2007, at 18:26:42
In reply to Re: That Way Lies Madness, posted by unbottled on October 23, 2007, at 15:06:06
> I suppose diabetes sufferers might get better
> if they ditch their insulin and start jogging
> more?A 'type 2' diabetic perhapse, but if a 'type 1' insulin dependant diabetic 'ditched' thier insulin THEN THEY WOULD DIE.
Posted by linkadge on October 24, 2007, at 19:51:17
In reply to Re: That Way Lies Madness » linkadge, posted by Racer on October 24, 2007, at 14:45:41
Let me sum up what I mean in one sentence:
I am not bothered by people who don't exercise, use supplements, go to therapy etc. I am just confused when people suggest that it is *impossible* for such alternatives to have a real effects for some mental illness.
Linkadge
Posted by Dr. Bob on October 27, 2007, at 14:12:53
In reply to Re: That Way Lies Madness » unbottled, posted by tecknohed on October 24, 2007, at 18:26:42
> > I suppose diabetes sufferers might get better
> > if they ditch their insulin and start jogging
> > more?
>
> A 'type 2' diabetic perhapse, but if a 'type 1' insulin dependant diabetic 'ditched' thier insulin THEN THEY WOULD DIE.Sorry to interrupt, but I'd like follow-ups regarding diabetics to be redirected to Psycho-Babble Health. Thanks,
Bob
This is the end of the thread.
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