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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 22 of 22. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by malcolm664 on June 12, 2007, at 17:47:40
I'm just wondering if there's an effective drug out there that will help improve memory. I seem to forget things two seconds after being told (sometimes repeatedly). Needless to say, people I've worked with over the years have found this to be very annoying. And it IS annoying. And frustrating.
And yes, I know that the standard strategy to compensate for memory issues is to take notes, take notes, take notes. Well this works provided that you actually have the time to take notes, or that people actually give you the time to take detailed notes, or that your notes make any sense when you have to come back and refer to them later. Or sometimes, a pen and paper just aren't always available at the exact time.
I've been on all of the standard ADD drugs (concerta, ritalin, desoxyn, etc) and none of them helped even the slightest. The only med I haven't yet tried is Provigil, but from everything I've been reading about it, it works similarly to the ADD drugs, so I'm not sure why it would be of any use.
I was recently diagnosed with a rare condition called "Non-Verbal Learning Disorder" (NVLD) which finally offered me some explanation for why I function the way I do. Of course, being a little known condition with no visible outward symptoms, people will only make allowances for disabilities that they can see, not ones they can't. But NVLD is very real.
Perhaps one of the reasons I keep posting to this board is in the hope that I'll find out about some unknown med that will reduce or eliminate my social anxiety and memory problems. Hope is about the only thing i have right now.
Malcolm
Posted by Quintal on June 12, 2007, at 19:57:25
In reply to Meds to improve memory?, posted by malcolm664 on June 12, 2007, at 17:47:40
When we're anxious in social situations often our attention is distracted away from the person we're speaking with and onto ourselves, because we're concentrating more on how the other person is making us feel rather than on what they're actually saying. So less information is taken in at the time anyway. Sorry to seem like a vulture on the benzo issue, but they're notorious for causing amnesia and they're clinically proven to impair encoding of short-term memory into long-term memory. When did your NVLD start? Unfortunately it's very likely the benzos you're taking are exacerbating the problem.
You asked about drugs that improve learning and memory. Such drugs do exist but at present they're only experimental at present. The experimental drug Ro15-4513 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ro15-4513) is a partial inverse agonist of the GABA-A receptor and is effective as specific aid to learning and memory. This is bad news for people taking benzos because Ro15-4513 is related to flumazenil, the benzodiazepine receptor antagonist, and unfortunately it reverses their anxiolytic effect. There are other herbs and supplements that claim to be effective aids to learning and memory such as Ginkgo Biloba, Ginseng, Hydergine, and other nootropics like the racetams (piracetam, aniracetam etc). All of them are cerebral vasodilators and work by improving blood flow to the brain, which improves the overall functioning of that organ. Some are said to have additional mechanisms through which they produce their cognitive enhancing effects but I'm not familiar with what they are.
Q
Posted by Phillipa on June 12, 2007, at 21:45:42
In reply to Meds to improve memory?, posted by malcolm664 on June 12, 2007, at 17:47:40
Macolm know you are on Parnate could you explain a bit about this condition as excessive anxiety causes me to forget things when they are said if I'm relaxed I remember. Is it something like this? Thanks Phillipa
Posted by malcolm664 on June 12, 2007, at 22:28:34
In reply to Re: Meds to improve memory? » malcolm664, posted by Phillipa on June 12, 2007, at 21:45:42
Well anxiety is definitely a factor; however, all the neurological testing I've had done up to this point points to NVLD. At least that's what the neuropsych I saw a couple of weeks ago said.
It would definitely help if I weren't as socially inhibited a person by nature as I am and that in itself causes some of the memory probs, but that's the way I'm wired and I'm not so sure that absent any medication that can bring about a change in my basic personality, that there's much I can do about it.
The reason I brought it up is that I started the internship as a personal trainer at a gym. It would really be a great opportunity for me if I could get over my social inhibitions. But those are due in large part to the NVLD, which as I said, causes problems with memory.
In other words, I really don't think it's the social anxiety that causes my memory probs, it's due more to the strange neuropsychological condition that impedes my ability to learn and take in new information.
The parnate is helpful more as an AD rather than doing anything for my social anxiety (of the meds I have taken, only Nardil wiped it clear away. But as I've said, Nardil's effects only lasted a few weeks. It would have been interesting to have undergone some neuropsych testing while the Nardil had its peak effect just to see if my testing scores improved.
But unfortunately, I'm no longer on Nardil, and it's doubtful that I could regain some of that effect if I were to start take it again. But I doubt my doc will agree to prescribe something that produces only a short-term hypomanic effect.
So the bottom line is that I really doubt that this internship that I had been looking forward to will turn into a permanent position. I don't think being a personal trainer is something I'm wired to do, despite the fact that I've been lifting weights for over 20 years myself. Just b/c you're good at doing something yourself doesn't necessarily translate into being a good instructor of the same subject.
I guess I'm rambling, but it really seems that my NVLD combined with the social anxiety it causes makes it hard for me to be successful at anything.
I'm in a bit of a down mood right now, so this message reflects that. Sorry.
Malcolm
> Macolm know you are on Parnate could you explain a bit about this condition as excessive anxiety causes me to forget things when they are said if I'm relaxed I remember. Is it something like this? Thanks Phillipa
Posted by malcolm664 on June 12, 2007, at 22:37:12
In reply to Re: Meds to improve memory? » malcolm664, posted by Quintal on June 12, 2007, at 19:57:25
> When we're anxious in social situations often our attention is distracted away from the person we're speaking with and onto ourselves, because we're concentrating more on how the other person is making us feel rather than on what they're actually saying. So less information is taken in at the time anyway. Sorry to seem like a vulture on the benzo issue, but they're notorious for causing amnesia and they're clinically proven to impair encoding of short-term memory into long-term memory. When did your NVLD start? Unfortunately it's very likely the benzos you're taking are exacerbating the problem.
>
> You asked about drugs that improve learning and memory. Such drugs do exist but at present they're only experimental at present. The experimental drug Ro15-4513 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ro15-4513) is a partial inverse agonist of the GABA-A receptor and is effective as specific aid to learning and memory. This is bad news for people taking benzos because Ro15-4513 is related to flumazenil, the benzodiazepine receptor antagonist, and unfortunately it reverses their anxiolytic effect. There are other herbs and supplements that claim to be effective aids to learning and memory such as Ginkgo Biloba, Ginseng, Hydergine, and other nootropics like the racetams (piracetam, aniracetam etc). All of them are cerebral vasodilators and work by improving blood flow to the brain, which improves the overall functioning of that organ. Some are said to have additional mechanisms through which they produce their cognitive enhancing effects but I'm not familiar with what they are.
>
> QWell unfortunately, the NVLD has been a life-long condition since childhood. I would say that it's one of the prime reasons for my social anxiety.
So I really don't think that benzos have helped nor hurt my memory as I've suffered from this condition (and it's pretty rare) since dating back to before I ever took a benzo for the first time.
Malcolm
Posted by Quintal on June 12, 2007, at 22:44:20
In reply to Re: Meds to improve memory?, posted by malcolm664 on June 12, 2007, at 22:37:12
Okay Malcolm.
Q
Posted by Phillipa on June 12, 2007, at 23:05:56
In reply to Re: Meds to improve memory?, posted by malcolm664 on June 12, 2007, at 22:37:12
Malcolm yes I understand and maybe you should continue to work on your self-esteem with the excercise that you enjoy not everyone was meant to teach sometimes takes away from the enjoyment of it. Love Phillipa
Posted by mike lynch on June 13, 2007, at 15:32:09
In reply to Meds to improve memory?, posted by malcolm664 on June 12, 2007, at 17:47:40
I have non-verbal learning disorder to apparently, I don't know much about it, or what it means, but the symptoms you describe are similar to what I experience. The only difference is that the amount of time in which I can hold the information, if I am told something and complete the task right away im fine, but the moment I become distracted by something else, or wait a while I will forget about it.
Posted by Sigismund on June 13, 2007, at 15:59:17
In reply to Re: Meds to improve memory?, posted by mike lynch on June 13, 2007, at 15:32:09
Yesterday I tried to get the dinner out of the dishwasher rather than the oven.
That kind of thing?
Maybe it's early dementia?
Posted by KayeBaby on June 13, 2007, at 19:22:12
In reply to Re: Meds to improve memory?, posted by mike lynch on June 13, 2007, at 15:32:09
I have this disorder too.
What amazes me is that you are so physical.My spatial abilities are horrid. Although weights were one of the few athletic ventures I could do well or enjoy. I am not a team player thats for sure.
I'm taking Namenda and I have noticed quite a profound effect on my anxiety level. Most things that relieve my anxiety also sedate me which I just hate.
Take Care,
Kaye
Posted by Phillipa on June 13, 2007, at 19:54:34
In reply to Re: Meds to improve memory?, posted by Sigismund on June 13, 2007, at 15:59:17
Oh knowing you I'm sure it is. Love PJ
Posted by malcolm664 on June 13, 2007, at 22:27:35
In reply to Re: Meds to improve memory?, posted by KayeBaby on June 13, 2007, at 19:22:12
> I have this disorder too.
> What amazes me is that you are so physical.
>
> My spatial abilities are horrid. Although weights were one of the few athletic ventures I could do well or enjoy. I am not a team player thats for sure.
>
> I'm taking Namenda and I have noticed quite a profound effect on my anxiety level. Most things that relieve my anxiety also sedate me which I just hate.
>
> Take Care,
> KayeWell, I'm actually a klutz to be quite honest. I bump into things constantly. It took me two sessions of driver's ed before I got my D's L. I've always been uncoordinated at sports.
But yet when it comes to lifting weights (on my own, not training anyone), I seem to manage quite well. Not too sound egotistical or anything, but looking at me, I'm pretty muscular, so people wouldn't expect that I actually have poor athletic coordination. But I do.
Anything where I have to demonstrate anything to anyone nonverbally and spacial abilities, I suck at. The following link contains a good description of the disorder (http://ldonline.org/article/6114) . Again, it's a fairly rare condition, that's why it took so long and a fairly knowledgeable neuropsych to connect the dots together to make the diagnosis. And it makes perfect sense (if you read the symptoms, I fit the majority of them to a "T").
The difficulty as I said is that since it's not visible, people don't make allowances for it like they would if I had a traditional disability, like blindness, or missing a legs; in some ways they would be preferable to having NVLD).
And as far as I know, none of the traditional ADD meds seem to work.
But since you mentioned Namenda, can you tell me a bit more about it as a treatment for anxiety. How effective has it been? What's the dosage? Does it work immediately, or does it take time to build up in your system?
I hadn't even heard of this med to treat anxiety, so of course, I'm immediately curious about it.
thanks-
Malcolm
Posted by KayeBaby on June 13, 2007, at 23:26:37
In reply to Re: Meds to improve memory? » KayeBaby, posted by malcolm664 on June 13, 2007, at 22:27:35
My Dr. gave it to me for an all around brain boost but the biggest thing I have noticed so far is a reduction in anxiety and a boost in mood. I have heard of it being used for OCD and anxiety though.
I honestly didn't realize how much anxiety I had till it was gone.
Question-did you read at an early age and do you find it impossible (nearly) to tell your right from your left?
Driving is still a challange for me-I have no depth perception.
I am often misjudged in a strange way. Because I have great language/reading skills people think me more capable than I probably am. Then they think I'm screwing around when I don't get something or that I'm not trying at all. I also am not very socially savvy. I take everthing at face value and just seem to miss the obvious a lot.
I always say I am ADD type because that is the diagnosis I am being treated under and no one seems to know what NLD is. I am really NLD. In my opinion NLD is closer to aspergers syndrome than ADD.
You might like provigil. It was calming but at the same time I felt alert and aware. It didn't keep the same effect over time for me.Peace,
Kaye
Posted by malcolm664 on June 14, 2007, at 14:13:16
In reply to Re: Meds to improve memory?, posted by KayeBaby on June 13, 2007, at 23:26:37
> My Dr. gave it to me for an all around brain boost but the biggest thing I have noticed so far is a reduction in anxiety and a boost in mood. I have heard of it being used for OCD and anxiety though.
>
> I honestly didn't realize how much anxiety I had till it was gone.
>
> Question-did you read at an early age and do you find it impossible (nearly) to tell your right from your left?
>
> Driving is still a challange for me-I have no depth perception.
>
> I am often misjudged in a strange way. Because I have great language/reading skills people think me more capable than I probably am. Then they think I'm screwing around when I don't get something or that I'm not trying at all. I also am not very socially savvy. I take everthing at face value and just seem to miss the obvious a lot.
>
> I always say I am ADD type because that is the diagnosis I am being treated under and no one seems to know what NLD is. I am really NLD. In my opinion NLD is closer to aspergers syndrome than ADD.
>
>
> You might like provigil. It was calming but at the same time I felt alert and aware. It didn't keep the same effect over time for me.
>
> Peace,
> Kaye
>Well, yes I often find it hard to give directions b/c I'm always confusing right from left. And like you socially a bit clueless. Having NVLD is a bit like having a condition that no matter where you are or whom you're with you there's a strange feeling that you just don't fit in.
I've been wanting to try Provigil, but my doc is dead set against it b/c I'm also on Parnate and he thinks that the combination (based on one study that he read somewhere) is dangerous.
But if you're also telling me that it's effectiveness fizzles out, that's not encouraging at all. The last thing I need at this point is to have a med start to fail on me, especially if it relieves my symptoms successfully in the beginning.
Posted by KayeBaby on June 14, 2007, at 14:41:46
In reply to Re: Meds to improve memory? » KayeBaby, posted by malcolm664 on June 14, 2007, at 14:13:16
Well, the effect fizzled for me. Lots of people continue to benefit from provigil for a long time.
But if your Doc is against it then it's sorta on the shelf anyways.Is memory your biggest concern right now? Do you have trouble motivating yourself? This is my main concern right now.
I have been on EMSAM for 7weeks now and it has been all around one of the best (if not THE best)meds I have used. I was on stimulants for lik 10 + years straight and have been able to stop with EMSAM. Maybe NLD responds best to MAO type drugs.
How long have you been on Parnate? Any fatigue or weight gain?
I just added 2mg of Abilify a couple of days ago. I am having trouble getting myself to do anything physical but I am not tired. Abilify is reputed to have a motivating effect.
We shall see. It seems like it takes a bonfire under my hind to get me moving. I sleep 10+ hours most nights even with Emsam.
Take Care,
Kaye
Posted by malcolm664 on June 14, 2007, at 19:19:43
In reply to Re: Meds to improve memory? » malcolm664, posted by KayeBaby on June 14, 2007, at 14:41:46
> Well, the effect fizzled for me. Lots of people continue to benefit from provigil for a long time.
> But if your Doc is against it then it's sorta on the shelf anyways.
>
> Is memory your biggest concern right now? Do you have trouble motivating yourself? This is my main concern right now.
>
> I have been on EMSAM for 7weeks now and it has been all around one of the best (if not THE best)meds I have used. I was on stimulants for lik 10 + years straight and have been able to stop with EMSAM. Maybe NLD responds best to MAO type drugs.
>
> How long have you been on Parnate? Any fatigue or weight gain?
>
> I just added 2mg of Abilify a couple of days ago. I am having trouble getting myself to do anything physical but I am not tired. Abilify is reputed to have a motivating effect.
>
> We shall see. It seems like it takes a bonfire under my hind to get me moving. I sleep 10+ hours most nights even with Emsam.
>
> Take Care,
> KayeWell, no weight gain, but fatigue has definitely been a problem. I didn't used to be a heavy coffee drinker, but I am now. If it weren't for caffeine, I'd be asleep for a significant part of the day.
And as far as self-motivation, yes when you get as tired as I do on Parnate, it's hard to motivate yourself to do anything productive (without caffeine); even though my doc has told me not to have more than one cup a day, I literally wouldn't get anything done on most days except sleep; and I get sleepy only during the days, on most nights I have insomnia). And I hate that lazy feeling that I get after I've slept during the daytime.
MAOI's are strange meds, indeed.
But so far, although the Parnate has lessened the depression considerably since it kicked in a few weeks ago, I have yet to experience anything like the COMPLETE social anxiety wipeout I experienced for a few weeks last year while on Nardil.
I know I keep harping on this endlessly, but the change was literally night and day. As I understand it, it has something to do with Nardil's effects on GABA and the homeostasis that results was the reason that it stopped working.
Am I right?
Posted by Quintal on June 14, 2007, at 20:26:12
In reply to Re: Meds to improve memory?, posted by malcolm664 on June 14, 2007, at 19:19:43
>I know I keep harping on this endlessly, but the change was literally night and day. As I understand it, it has something to do with Nardil's effects on GABA and the homeostasis that results was the reason that it stopped working.
Yeah, basically you build up tolerance to the euphoric effect because your brain opposes the action of the drug in order to maintain it's natural balance. This process is called homeostasis - I think the literal translation would be something like 'staying the same' or 'keeping stable'. It's your body's natural stabilizer/neutralizer mechanism and it's there to protect you.
Q
Posted by mike lynch on June 15, 2007, at 2:30:54
In reply to Re: Meds to improve memory?, posted by KayeBaby on June 13, 2007, at 23:26:37
>
> Question-did you read at an early age and do you find it impossible (nearly) to tell your right from your left?
>
> Driving is still a challange for me-I have no depth perception.
>
> I am often misjudged in a strange way. Because I have great language/reading skills people think me more capable than I probably am. Then they think I'm screwing around when I don't get something or that I'm not trying at all. I also am not very socially savvy. I take everthing at face value and just seem to miss the obvious a lot.
>Damn this is what I experience to. Reading was probably the easiest thing that came to me with academics, I was flying through all of the words ever since I was in first grade with little ease. But then I acted really stupid towards other things.. Do you guys have trouble following certain directions, like if someone explains something elaborate, about how to do something you're just like....wtf??? and just nod not knowing what the hell to do) What about badhandwriting, and if you do something like math problems, everythings horribly organized, tons of cross outs, everythings sloppy etc??
Posted by malcolm664 on June 15, 2007, at 5:21:14
In reply to Re: Meds to improve memory?, posted by mike lynch on June 15, 2007, at 2:30:54
>
> >
> > Question-did you read at an early age and do you find it impossible (nearly) to tell your right from your left?
> >
> > Driving is still a challange for me-I have no depth perception.
> >
> > I am often misjudged in a strange way. Because I have great language/reading skills people think me more capable than I probably am. Then they think I'm screwing around when I don't get something or that I'm not trying at all. I also am not very socially savvy. I take everthing at face value and just seem to miss the obvious a lot.
> >
>
> Damn this is what I experience to. Reading was probably the easiest thing that came to me with academics, I was flying through all of the words ever since I was in first grade with little ease. But then I acted really stupid towards other things.. Do you guys have trouble following certain directions, like if someone explains something elaborate, about how to do something you're just like....wtf??? and just nod not knowing what the hell to do) What about badhandwriting, and if you do something like math problems, everythings horribly organized, tons of cross outs, everythings sloppy etc??The following link has a good description of NVLD's symptoms. Though each person is different, some or all of them would apply if you truly have NVLD. But only an experienced neuropsych would know to make that diagnosis. I saw three before the most recent one looked at the results of the neuropsych testing I had done and put the pieces together. Not that it would really have mattered had I found out sooner. There is no med (or at least none that I'm aware of ) that effectively treats NVLD (including all the ADD meds, which I've tried). So you have to learn to compensate for the disorder, which as I'm finding out is much easier said than done. Again, people will only make allowances for disorders that they can actually see and if you're clumsy, with poor motor coordination like I have always been, people will think you're a klutz (or worse).
Anyway, the following contains a link that explains the disorder quite well:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ro15-4513
Malcolm
Posted by KayeBaby on June 15, 2007, at 10:04:28
In reply to Re: Meds to improve memory?, posted by mike lynch on June 15, 2007, at 2:30:54
You are singing my song.
When someone gives me verbal instructions with too many steps or they are not very succint, at a certain point it all becomes gibberish.. In fact, my favorite way to get directions (like say in a hospital or building) is to ask one person and follow the first couple of steps I remember then ask again till I get there or find it myself.
Handwriting is so bad I often am unable to read it myself. I am as deficient mathmatically as I am proficient in laungauage.
On telling feature of this disorder is a large gap between verbal IQ and performance. In other words we test above what we are able to practically apply. Weird.
NLD folks usually are strong auditory learners. I can learn anything and remember well anything I hear from a good speaker. My ipod with the free podcasts make learning more like downloading info directly into my brain.
I feel like the main drawback of this type of ld is that I am constantly misjudged-sometimes in my favor but mostly not.
Has had the effect of me being highly independant.
BTW-I am on my 3rd day of Abilify at 2mg and am noticing an energizing effect-yaay!
I woke early today and am able to get around and do stuff more easily.
Peace,
kaye
Posted by KayeBaby on June 15, 2007, at 10:09:28
In reply to Re: Meds to improve memory?, posted by malcolm664 on June 15, 2007, at 5:21:14
Again, people will only make allowances for disorders that they can actually see and if you're clumsy, with poor motor coordination like I have always been, people will think you're a klutz (or worse).
I have made peace with the fact that I apeear to be a clown sometimes. It is just as apparent that I smart. I figure that everyone has their gifts and making people laugh is certainly one. I lost my pride years ago and laugh at myself. I strive to make people think but really-I am dorky and getting them to laugh comes naturally.Kaye
Posted by OzLand on June 20, 2007, at 21:23:35
In reply to Meds to improve memory?, posted by malcolm664 on June 12, 2007, at 17:47:40
Your condition sounds like what happened to me after I did ECT, Right unilateral. It makes me crazy and I carry around something to write on a nd pen all the time plus I journal everyday so that I will have some sense of what happened that day when I go back and read what I wrote. I would love to have a pill to change this too.
This is the end of the thread.
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