![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 18 of 18. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Marc Boucher on March 23, 2007, at 23:00:46
To any of you who really knows a heck of a lot about neurotransmitters, would you be so kind as to wave so I can ask a few questions ?
Best regards
Marc
Posted by rjlockhart on March 23, 2007, at 23:20:31
In reply to Who among you know a lot about neurotransmitters ?, posted by Marc Boucher on March 23, 2007, at 23:00:46
omg............i've posted so much of this in the past.
No,, i was saying i havent talked about this in a long time with people.
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/psycho/20050901/msgs/550197.html
I have so much more, but
Serotonin- sleep, mood, flow of thought (with out it you would have OCD which means that you would go crazy, and have tourching thoughts) regulates thoughts,
Dopamine- this one is a big one when it comes to rewards, such as motivation, it is released when amphetamines are taken, causes you to want to work, be motivated, creative, also is a pleasure chemical, sexual, everyday things, with out dopamine there would be really fun in your life, too much dopamine will make you crazy as in schizophrenia, thats why schziophrenic people have to take antipsychotics to lower dopamine, thinking paranoia, crazy things, anyways, but people with moderate dopamine activity, are usally ambitious, motivated, goal oriented, thats what happens when sometimes if you take amphetamiens you feel great.
Norepheniphrine- this is teh alertness chemical, that keeps you attention at alert, and also stimuluating.
thats about all i can type
But thats a small summery of it.
There is also others too glumate, NADH, i will have to talk about those later..
But thanks for asking.
Posted by Larry Hoover on March 24, 2007, at 6:24:33
In reply to Who among you know a lot about neurotransmitters ?, posted by Marc Boucher on March 23, 2007, at 23:00:46
> To any of you who really knows a heck of a lot about neurotransmitters, would you be so kind as to wave so I can ask a few questions ?
>
> Best regards
> MarcI think you'd do best just to go ahead and ask your questions. Different parts of the answers might come from different people.
Lar
Posted by Phillipa on March 24, 2007, at 10:06:56
In reply to Re: Who among you know a lot about neurotransmitters ? » Marc Boucher, posted by Larry Hoover on March 24, 2007, at 6:24:33
Exactly what is it that you are looking for about neurotransmitters. Love Phillipa
Posted by Racer on March 24, 2007, at 13:56:08
In reply to Re: Who among you know a lot about neurotransmitters ?, posted by Phillipa on March 24, 2007, at 10:06:56
Different people here know more and less about various neurotransmitters. If you ask for a show of hands, you'll get a lot of people waving, but you won't necessarily find one person who knows all of what you want to know.
What are your questions?
Posted by Marc Boucher on March 24, 2007, at 14:59:04
In reply to Re: Who among you know a lot about neurotransmitters ?, posted by Phillipa on March 24, 2007, at 10:06:56
Ok, first off thanks guys for chiming in, I really appreciate.
Ok, it's going to be a long posting, because I've gathered data, test results and questions over more than a year now. I'll try to be as accurate as it is humanly possible.
Before we engage in this discussion, I want you to know that my main issue is very low sex drive, Or what I think is low sex drive--at this point in time, I'm wondering whether it is low sex drive or low arousal. You'll get to understand why below. But what you have to keep in mind all along is that libido is the reason I consulted with Dr. Eric Braverman a year ago, and still is the reason I'm here today.
I'm now 34 and will turn 35 in a few days. I'm 5'7'', 165 lbs. I do not have high blood pressure, no diabetes, or other such diseases. I've been with the same woman life companion for 11 years now. My low sex drive issue began roughly at age 26, so it's been going on for a good while now--needless to say that it's substantially decreased my quality of life. Before I met my girlfriend and in the first months after meeting her, my sex drive was still through the roof, but then i began to fear she'd cheat on me. This wrong and recurrent thought pattern came about i imagine because of insecurity (I've always been insecure),as my girlfriend is toned and good looking, so I figured bunch of guys would attempt hitting on her, and most importantly because my sex drive was so very high that I'd come to believing that hers was alike mine, and that's in part what triggered the insecurity in me. So in order to build up a sense of security, I started to talk to her about that constant fear I harbored. That was the thing to do instead of bottling up tight inside. However it became truly obsessive, up to a point where I cannot even attemp to number the amount of coversations I initiated on this topic ; it must be in the 100's of conversations. I'd often start such discussions at bedtime where no tv no nothing was acting as a cause for distraction. Mental exhaustion would often cause me to fall asleep before I could hit a point in the conversation where my security meter would go : ''ok, I'm satisfied, you can go to sleep''. At this point I still had a sex drive but it was beginning to wane. This thing about insecurity lasted for a year, and then I was compelled to find new work. I did find new work, and that in a very short timeframe, but I hated the place with a passion, so much so that after being there for 2 weeks only ; worrying about my relationship issue while at work, and fretting over work related issue while being at home, I collapsed. My sex drive went from 10 to 0 in a few days, my energy was shot, whereas I would be quite strong prior to that event. My short term memory was no more, and I would feel sleepy and drowsy after the noon meal. I would also pass a lot of urine, but wasn't any thirstier than usual though. At some point i thought I'd contracted diabetes, because I was having lots of simple carbs back then. But my test results would all come in fine. Eventually I had to quit that job, and I was happy thinking that after appropriate rest the sex drive would make a strong come back, but mistaken I was.
I recall telling my girlfriend months after I quit that job that it felt as though my nervous system was stuck in the fight of flight--I'd have walks in the woods that fall, figuring it would ease the tensions, but it's actually made it worse, because I'd focus intently at all the sounds one would normally expect to hear in the forest, especially during the fall season. Eventually those walks were not helping at all. I was tense the whole time. so months weeks, month and years went by and I still didn't experience any return of the strong sex drive I'd have. I went to make alternative healers but none could help. I also have to mention that the energy normalized after 4 years mark, after I had this liver tonic : http://www.vitacost.com/FloraFloradixGallexierHerbalBitters
So this is what brought the energy back up and that in a very short time.
Short term memory and libido have improved ever so slightly in the last year--memory has improved more than libido I must say.
Now that you know more about how it all came about, I'll go down to the nitty gritty of what I call my sex drie issue.
For a time, I was able to exchange emails with a retired researcher in endocrinology friend of mine (now he's too busy to do so), and after much exchange he told me that what I had wasn't a real low sex drive, as one who truly has a low sex drive doesn't focus so intently on getting the his sex drive back--my obsession over sex drive for the last years, caused him to think that my sex drive wasn't so low to beging with. I've pondered over this for some time now. It's true that my motivation to recover my sex drive is up there !
**So my first question is : can one have a true low sex drive, yet want it back so much at the same time ?
Now, last year I called Dr. Eric Braverman's clinic down in Manhattan, and made an appointment with him. I went there, spent $3500 and got a lot of tests--although some of the tess he uses are the kind that have not yet made it in the medical community. So are they accurate or not ? Beats me ! So he diagnosed me with Dysthymia and ADHD--he said that the ADHD wasn't a true case and was from the Dysthymia driven anxiety. Although as a kid teachers would call home to let my parents know that I was having a hard time paying attention, was falling behind in my homework assignement. I had a hard time sitting still, and still do to this day. Dr. may or may not be right, as i know there can be many causes for ADHD.
What I didn't appreciate is that Dr. Braverman has prescribed 20 mg Paxil first thing in the morning, and 0.5 mg Klonopin at bedtime. Klonopin, well that I could understand as it can help with libido in some, but Paxil !?! I've yet to hear from someone who's sex drive improved on Paxil. He also prescribed natural supps, namely :
Brain calm (2 caps at breakfast and bedtime) : http://www.totalhealthnutrients.com/ph/catalog-product-detail;catalogproducts,1.html
Brain energy (2 caps at breakfast) : http://www.totalhealthnutrients.com/ph/catalog-product-detail;catalogproducts,2.html
Brain mood (1 caps. at dinner) : http://www.totalhealthnutrients.com/ph/catalog-product-detail;catalogproducts,4.html
Brain memory ( 1 caps at breakfast and dinner) : http://www.totalhealthnutrients.com/ph/catalog-product-detail;catalogproducts,3.html
**CES : 1 hour before bed. http://www.cesultra.com/
**Magnesium 470 mg at breakfast and dinner
**Zinc 20 mg at breakfast and dinner
**Cernilton`2 caps at lunch. http://www.totalhealthnutrients.com/ph/catalog-product-detail;catalogproducts,10.html
**prostate formula (I think he prescribed that to me because I have vertex MPB, and he said that most of his prostate cancer patients are bald). http://www.totalhealthnutrients.com/ph/catalog-product-detail;catalogproducts,30.html
**Tryptophan 1000 at bedtime.
**Citrinate/citrin & chromium : 1 caps with each meal. http://www.totalhealthnutrients.com/ph/catalog-product-detail;catalogproducts,12.html
**Vitamin E 400 i.u-- 1 gel caps at breakfast and dinner. http://www.totalhealthnutrients.com/ph/catalog-product-detail;catalogproducts,16.html
**CLA : 1 caps at breakfast and dinner--to help lose fat. http://www.totalhealthnutrients.com/ph/catalog-product-detail;catalogproducts,46.html
**fish oil : 1 gel caps at breakfast and dinner http://www.totalhealthnutrients.com/ph/catalog-product-detail;catalogproducts,34.html
**He also prescribed 50 mg DHEA in the morning, but I refused to take it because my DHEA-S is fine. I don't see what benefit it would be to supplement any hormone which is not low to beging with.
Now, I haven't followed his protocol at all. Why ? Because I don't feel the diagnosis was accurate enough. Dysthymia is a rather vague diagnosis, as it can involve brain neurotransmitters and hormones. Most psychiatric diagnosis tend to exclude the etiology of disease. An analogy is that middle-aged man often have Dysthymic disorder, and this can be traced to decreased Testosterone. I know for a fact that major depression has been linked to disruption of the HPTA (CRH, receptors etc...)
I've been a bundle of nerves all of my life, yet my sex drive was through the roof, until 8 + years ago, as I outlined above.
I've consulted many more M.D.'s since after I met with Dr. Braverman, including an endocrinologist last summer. I also had a heck of a lot of blood tests performed. Even last week a new lady doctor sent me to have the whole array of tests other doctors had prescribed to see where things are standing now.
One of the M.D.'s I've seen told me that my 24-Hour urinary Cortisol was low, and that was why my sex drive was low--while it is true, my very recent blood cortisol (from last week) are not low, here they are :
Consider that I'm Canada, and units might not the the same as in the U.S., however I provide the ref.range.
Cortisol (8 hours) 623 (160-700) nmol/L
Cortisol (16 hours) 330 (50-500) nmol/LIt looks fine, as it reflect the morning peaks of Cortisol which is higher than that of late afternoon.
=================================================
All of last week hormone test results are not in yet, but yesterday my primary care provider called me to let me know that those which have come in so far are fine--she said that my Estradiol was right where it should be, my Bioavailable testosterone has even gone up by 3 points, and my total Testosterone has gone up slightly too. My homocysteine was fine as well as fasting blood sugar. I however haven't yet seen those results, but will have someone make a printout of those on Monday, so I can review them myself, just to make sure I'm not given the : you're-in-the-range-so-you're-normal kind of diagnostic.
=================================================
**Sexually speaking I serotonin seems to have a role to play in delaying ejaculation through keeping Norepinephrine under control to some extent, given that it's a burst of Norepi. that triggers ejaculation.GABA seems to be more relevant in sex drive than is Serotonin, through lowering anxiety. I'm so used to be anxious that it's come to a point where I don't even know whether I am or not. I know that GABA is supposed to moderate the firing of excitatory neurotransmitter neurons--balancing them out.
Dopamine : this is the one which is most often tied to sex drive--testosterone does increase brain dopamine--i think the relevance of dopamine in sex drive is in the Mesolimbic area. I also know that when dopamine is high Prolactin is low, and vice versa. Prolactin inhibits the release of Gonadotropins, thus contributing to lower T levels. At Pathmedical, I had BEAM (Brain Electrical Activity Mapping) done, and it showed that I had a slight decrease in Dopamine, but I was then told by a psychiatrist that it is not possible to measure neurotransmitters levels through a BEAM.
Now there's also Ach (Acetylcholine) which is the one neurotransmitter I've wondered about ; that is whether I'm deficient in this one instead of dopamine. That is because at times mentally speaking I feel like having sex, but you know this systemic sense of arousal that one usuallly get when exited, well, I don't get it anymore, or at least I hardly ever feel that. So when referring to low sex drive, that is what I mean ; this overall sense of arousal.
**I've found a few foods to help with the low sex drive : eggs, and plain low-fat yogurt. Now those are choline rich.
**Dietary supplement wise, I've found : fish oil to consistently help rev up sex drive. Valerian has helped too, as well as grape seed extract, and theanine.
What I want is to find out what is the root cause of my issue--that is however wishful thinking to a large extent, but I'd like to get as close as possible to the etiology.
**While I don't drink coffee, I recall that one evening I'd french vanilla coffees and it made me quite horny--that was 2 years ago, and haven't tried it out since then.
**Another clue against low sex drive, and that all M.D.'s I've talked to about it have had a tough time making sense of, is that although I complain of low libido, I've kept masturbating daily at the rate of 1-2/day. I've thought that to me it was either a way of easing my mind, OR as a way of proving myself I'm still potent, although we all know that I'm not my old self. I usually do not have any problem getting an erection WHEN I feel like having sex--otherwise it will take a long time to get it up.
**I do not have blockages down there, because at Pathmedical I was performed a penile Doppler, and all is fine as far as blood flow down there.
**My last Total Testosterone from last summer was : 406 ng/dl which is borderline low. The blood test results from pathmedical showed an even lower T, but God was I stressed out while being on location--it was in a totally new environment, had to catch a plane, and believe it or not I'd never boarded a plane before, and then an hour later find myself at Laguardia airport......I felt like home alone in New York :-), although the plane experience was fun, it was still a psychological stress. Androgens are not to vary quite a bit during the day--they're not as Hemoglobin which is very steady as opposed to androgens. So all in all, I was very much stressed while at Pathmedical, and my total testosterone provided evidence of it--I scored very low at 184 ng/dl, but of course two weeks later it was back up at : 406 ng/dl. I was back from NYC and my stress levels had lessened to a more usual one, so as a result my T went back up, although not up to what I should be at for my age group. I should at least be 650 ng/dl at age 35, though in the 800's would be more like it.
My last Prolactin from last July came in at :
**Prolactin H 16.6 (4.0-15.2)
Some think it is too high, while most say that it's now so high as to cause low libido.
**E2 was at 25 pg/ml, which is supposed to be fine. But then it was a 17-B estradiol test, and not a sensitive E2 test. So some have argued it could still be too high.
**TSH came in at : 1.54
My thyroid anti-thyroperoxidase came in at : 12 out of a range of : negative <45
suspicious : 45-65 K/U/L
Positive > 65 kU/L
So obviously, I'm doing fine here.
**My FT4 came in at : 20.3 ( 12.0-22.0) pmol/L
**I had asked my primary care provider to also perform FT3 but the lab where those tests are sent I was told don't perform the FT3 when the FT4 is fine.
=================================================I may have forgotten to mention important details, but will add them up should any occured to me after I hit the post button.
I'd like to have your opinion on what neurotransmitters are at the root of my sex drive issue, or at least what I call a sex drive issue.
Of course there are way more than just those common four neurotransmitters we're talking about here. Opioids, neuropeptides, CRH, glutamate etc...making the whole picture pretty darn hard to figure out.
Thank you very much all,
Marc
Posted by Sandra62 on March 24, 2007, at 16:59:45
In reply to Re: Who among you know a lot about neurotransmitters ?, posted by Marc Boucher on March 24, 2007, at 14:59:04
WOW Marc, what a fascinating story. You seem to already know alot about neurotransmitters and I have learned from you and from other's posts. Let me say, I'm so sorry that you are dealing with this but I can see by your determination and wisdom you are going to get to the bottom of this once and for all. I'm no help to you on your question but I felt compelled to respond to your post because I felt like I was reading of my own life issue with respect to how you felt when you had a high sex drive and that your girlfriend must feel the same way too.
11 years ago I met my now husband (bless his heart for sticking it out with me all these years) and I had not been diagnosed properly, I have Bipolar which I only found out about maybe 2 years ago now. Anyways, I was extremely hypersexual and found myself having ruminating thoughts that my boyfriend was looking at other women and finding them more attractive then me. I was a gym freak and was in perfect shape and considered beautiful. No matter, I was convinced that there were threats. I went to a GP for some minor issue, I forget what now, but she took an interest in exploring a little about what was going on in my life. I shared my issue and she diagnosed me with obsessive thoughts. I guess a form of OCD? She prescribed Paxil which as many of us know will kill your sex drive and it did. Along with that the crippling jealousy left. Now being Bipolar I started to rapid cycle (which I knew nothing about then) and would fly into uncontrollable rage episodes and reckless behaviour and then deep depression. Sometimes during the course of one day. I quit the Paxil, and again as many of know would happen, I had what does the pharmaceutical company call it...dicontinuation syndrome?...and I had to deal with the hell of withdrawal then. And subsequently I returned to having a high sex drive and with it came the rumininating thoughts that my boyfriend was sure to be fantasizing about other women. It sure was crippling wasn't it?
Now years later, many diagnoses later, and many meds later I now have a super low libido and sometimes anorgasmia depending on the med cocktail 'o the day. Also could be my age, I'm 45. My PDOC is now working closely with me to recapture my sex drive, along with it my zest for life and super creativity that I lost taking AP's. I used to write songs all the time and was highly active as a musician and it would bring me joy. Now I haven't picked up my guitar, touched my keyboard, written, or sung for ages. I feel like a shell of my former self. Anyways that it all another story.
I just wanted to acknowledge your pain and your quest for uncovering the root of your issue as a young man who wants his virility back - you deserve it! I wish you much success!
Posted by Racer on March 24, 2007, at 17:00:32
In reply to Re: Who among you know a lot about neurotransmitters ?, posted by Marc Boucher on March 24, 2007, at 14:59:04
Marc, it doesn't sound to me as though any neurotransmitter is at the root of your problem. It sounds to me as though what's happening is psychological, and not physical.
First of all, you've said that you have low sex drive, but you're masturbating more than once a day, on average? Those two things really don't go together. I think what you're saying is that you have low interest in sex with your girlfriend, or with sex with a partner. That's different from low sex drive. "Low sex drive" would usually mean low interest in any form of sexual activity, alone or with a partner.
Secondly, you say pretty clearly that the problem began with your fear -- which I think you've described as "obsessive" -- that your girlfriend will be unfaithful to you. That's a good starting place for a psychological cause of your low interest in sex with her. Not only directly, but because you're so worried about your lack of desire, you're probably putting a lot of pressure on yourself about it, which just increases the block against it. Like performance anxiety of any sort.
While the actual treatment for what I think is going on would be psychotherapy, taking a prescription anti-depressant -- especially an SSRI -- would probably be very helpful as well. No, SSRIs do not directly increase sex drive, but that might not be your problem in the first place. What they will do, if they work, is treat the dysthymia/anxiety, which would likely improve your ability to work on the underlying issues. I suggest SSRIs because they are often most helpful for OCD, and it sounds as though there's some obsessiveness going on, as well as possibly some compulsiveness as well. I'm not a big fan of Paxil, but it's still a pretty good direction to explore.
The bottom line as far as neurochemistry is concerned is this: no one knows definitively what causes or cures what. There seems to be a rational relationship between the major neurotransmitters, so increasing one or another probably isn't the answer to much of anything. Normalizing the ratios between them is the goal. The best anyone can really do right now is say, "There's a strong correlation between these symptoms and getting relief from drugs that do this." A doctor can say, "Hm... A lot of my patients who have reported these symptoms have responded well to Drug X, so let's start there." That's about it, though.
I hope that helps. Good luck to you.
Posted by Marc Boucher on March 24, 2007, at 18:33:01
In reply to Re: Who among you know a lot about neurotransmitters ?, posted by Sandra62 on March 24, 2007, at 16:59:45
Thanks to the both of you for commenting. I'll get back to you later on--I'e a few things to add.
Cheers,
Marc
Posted by willyee on March 25, 2007, at 8:11:07
In reply to Re: Who among you know a lot about neurotransmitters ?, posted by Marc Boucher on March 24, 2007, at 18:33:01
I can understand one part of your frustration very well,which is this.
People told me i was using so much "drugs" so i bought holistic books,and seen one of those natural docs who charge 150 an hour,cant remember the name of the type but like p docs she shroned a diploma of some sort on her wall.
So from books,the net articles,this expensive doc,etc,my shevles become a stock pile of herbs nutrients and vitamins minerals of all kinds.
I was so obsessed with it i lost track of reality around me,dosing trypohan,and this and that,and looking back,i did nothing for me but empty my pockets.
Here are a few things to note about natural remedies,yess they can help,they can do so alone,or as im a fan of in conjunction with meds,however it is not recomended or ideal to do what they call MEGA DOSE on most natural stuff.
Amino acids for example are popular for that,taking 1 -3 grams of dlpa or the like,see the body is very strong,and it will find what it needs,also the RDA is not very high.So taking what u should have and dosing it three fold is no longer NATURAL is it?? Safer perhaps in toxic means,but natural?You cause imbalances when you do this that can be quite agitating.
Last tests are done yess,and i have articles done that were hard to find showing the fluid of depressed vs non depressed to have many MANY imbalances,HOWEVER it was believed this merly showed a end result of depression.The body reacts off the mind,and simply shuts down a bit,so a good diet and minor supplementation might help to a degree,they are however not some magic soulution,i pray im alive when this solution does come.
You have people understandbly so dismayed to take "drugs" that they will do anything,and the websites use this fear of DRUGS to hook line and sinker them.......i.e get off drugs now! use this blend of total crap,where we threw togther some nautral and very low grade herbs and nutrients and slapped a fancy name and sticker to it,it is not a drug.Perhaps not but before u buy some insane remedy look at the ingreients and youll see how this MAGIC product breaks down ingredient wise to trace amounts of various every herbs and nutrients,a good diet,best u can anyway,water,fun choice of excersise will replace the need for that,however i have lifted weights and been into working out since the age of 16,im a pretty big boy now muscle wise and i got sick at 19,i actualy take my meds away from working out as the adrenaline outpour for me is anxiety provoking,but poing is althoug its helpful to be strong when my body is beat up from the illness,strentgh or fitness hasent been any form of cure.
Good luck lets keep people from getting over on us .
Posted by willyee on March 25, 2007, at 8:11:35
In reply to Re: Who among you know a lot about neurotransmitters ?, posted by Marc Boucher on March 24, 2007, at 18:33:01
I can understand one part of your frustration very well,which is this.
People told me i was using so much "drugs" so i bought holistic books,and seen one of those natural docs who charge 150 an hour,cant remember the name of the type but like p docs she shroned a diploma of some sort on her wall.
So from books,the net articles,this expensive doc,etc,my shevles become a stock pile of herbs nutrients and vitamins minerals of all kinds.
I was so obsessed with it i lost track of reality around me,dosing trypohan,and this and that,and looking back,i did nothing for me but empty my pockets.
Here are a few things to note about natural remedies,yess they can help,they can do so alone,or as im a fan of in conjunction with meds,however it is not recomended or ideal to do what they call MEGA DOSE on most natural stuff.
Amino acids for example are popular for that,taking 1 -3 grams of dlpa or the like,see the body is very strong,and it will find what it needs,also the RDA is not very high.So taking what u should have and dosing it three fold is no longer NATURAL is it?? Safer perhaps in toxic means,but natural?You cause imbalances when you do this that can be quite agitating.
Last tests are done yess,and i have articles done that were hard to find showing the fluid of depressed vs non depressed to have many MANY imbalances,HOWEVER it was believed this merly showed a end result of depression.The body reacts off the mind,and simply shuts down a bit,so a good diet and minor supplementation might help to a degree,they are however not some magic soulution,i pray im alive when this solution does come.
You have people understandbly so dismayed to take "drugs" that they will do anything,and the websites use this fear of DRUGS to hook line and sinker them.......i.e get off drugs now! use this blend of total crap,where we threw togther some nautral and very low grade herbs and nutrients and slapped a fancy name and sticker to it,it is not a drug.Perhaps not but before u buy some insane remedy look at the ingreients and youll see how this MAGIC product breaks down ingredient wise to trace amounts of various every herbs and nutrients,a good diet,best u can anyway,water,fun choice of excersise will replace the need for that,however i have lifted weights and been into working out since the age of 16,im a pretty big boy now muscle wise and i got sick at 19,i actualy take my meds away from working out as the adrenaline outpour for me is anxiety provoking,but poing is althoug its helpful to be strong when my body is beat up from the illness,strentgh or fitness hasent been any form of cure.
Good luck lets keep people from getting over on us .
Posted by Franz on March 25, 2007, at 8:40:36
In reply to Re: Who among you know a lot about neurotransmitters ?, posted by Marc Boucher on March 24, 2007, at 14:59:04
Why do you ask for advice if then you do not follow it?.
You wasted thousands with Braverman and did not take the medications?, especially Paxil which could have helped with obsessions?.
I would say with Racer that you really need to see a psychologist, a real one, not stupid counselling.
I wish you find help because I see your relationship is at risk.
Maybe you have a little chemical problem but for me you amplify it to an extreme degree. the problem is in your mind.
Have you ever consulted a psychologist?. The longer you take, the worse.
Good luck.
Posted by Marc Boucher on March 25, 2007, at 10:46:50
In reply to It doesn't sound as though it's neurochemical » Marc Boucher, posted by Racer on March 24, 2007, at 17:00:32
> Marc, it doesn't sound to me as though any neurotransmitter is at the root of your problem. It sounds to me as though what's happening is psychological, and not physical.
>
> First of all, you've said that you have low sex drive, but you're masturbating more than once a day, on average? Those two things really don't go together. I think what you're saying is that you have low interest in sex with your girlfriend, or with sex with a partner. That's different from low sex drive. "Low sex drive" would usually mean low interest in any form of sexual activity, alone or with a partner.
>
> Secondly, you say pretty clearly that the problem began with your fear -- which I think you've described as "obsessive" -- that your girlfriend will be unfaithful to you. That's a good starting place for a psychological cause of your low interest in sex with her. Not only directly, but because you're so worried about your lack of desire, you're probably putting a lot of pressure on yourself about it, which just increases the block against it. Like performance anxiety of any sort.
>
> While the actual treatment for what I think is going on would be psychotherapy, taking a prescription anti-depressant -- especially an SSRI -- would probably be very helpful as well. No, SSRIs do not directly increase sex drive, but that might not be your problem in the first place. What they will do, if they work, is treat the dysthymia/anxiety, which would likely improve your ability to work on the underlying issues. I suggest SSRIs because they are often most helpful for OCD, and it sounds as though there's some obsessiveness going on, as well as possibly some compulsiveness as well. I'm not a big fan of Paxil, but it's still a pretty good direction to explore.
>
> The bottom line as far as neurochemistry is concerned is this: no one knows definitively what causes or cures what. There seems to be a rational relationship between the major neurotransmitters, so increasing one or another probably isn't the answer to much of anything. Normalizing the ratios between them is the goal. The best anyone can really do right now is say, "There's a strong correlation between these symptoms and getting relief from drugs that do this." A doctor can say, "Hm... A lot of my patients who have reported these symptoms have responded well to Drug X, so let's start there." That's about it, though.
>
> I hope that helps. Good luck to you.
First I wish to thank you for commenting.However lenghty a post I write, I understand it's only normal that I'm somewhat misinterpreted, as humans are very involved creatures.
I want and have to point out that I'm not bored having sex with my girlfriend at all--Yes it seems very paradoxical that I still masterbate everyday, yet on the other hand complain of a low sex drive--I hear you. The reason I do not have much sex with my girlfriend is because I don't feel like it--now why don't I feel like it ? Because my drive is low to non-existent. Now again, you're going to wave the above instance where I mention daily masterbation, and reasonably so. Now let me explain to you that I do not get turned on more by other women, anymore than I am by my girlfriend, and here *turn on* is a very strong word considering the ongoing issue. Like I said, I do not get turned on much by other women, be it on the web or in real life situations.
Also, until very recently, morning woods were absent--morning woods are regulated by 2 things : amount of testosterone, and amount of REM sleep--there's no such thing as a *pee hard*. At least medically speaking. I know that my sleep is not what it used to be, so I'd tend to blame it more on poor sleep patterns, which in turn can cause lower Testosterone. Reason why I think morning erections have resumed is because I've used this CD at bedtime : http://www.immrama.org/insight/insight.html
With regards to your advice about going on one of the SSRI's drugs spectrum, I agree with you, and that is what Dr. Braverman thought too--however consider what I (the patient) want too. I'll tell you this : what if I tell you that when my sex drive is up (cause I have short-lived surges at times) nothing is the matter, all is fine with with the world ? Don't get me wrong here, I'm not saying my only issue is with low sex drive, BUT it is the one that has affected my mood the most. One clear fact is this : there's been studies and surveys of sexually dysfunctional men, and they found those to be depressed to varying degrees. Having below par sexual functions is to most men very important. Now before I suffered from low sex drive, I had some personality issues too (but who doesn't anyway--we all can relate to some personality features that could use improving to some extent)but I'll tell you that having suffered low sex drive for the last 8 years (my young and often the most pleasurable years of life, are lost) in and of itself can bring about some low-grade depression, don't you think ? Of course, that likely has to do with how high one ranks sex in his/her life--I for one need sex in my life, because it is a way to release daily tensions, and what's more voiding the prostate has even been shown to decrease prostate cancer risk.
The other issues with personalities, I guarantee you I can deal on my own, because I'm capable of much introspection. However, this is something you cannot know from reading my initial post--I understand that you mean very well, and I'm grateful that such people as you exist. However I felt compelled to further expand on my issue, so you get more of whole picture, instead of a mere fragment of my life.
Another physical issue that's been found as a result of laboratory essays, is that my 24-hour urinary Cortisol is on the low side. Now too much Cortisol is definately not a good thing, just as too little isn't good either. Cortisol can raise brain dopamine, therefore low Cortisol can help with low sex drive. Also low Cortisol brings about low blood sugar, and low Cortisol makes one prone to anxiety too. I'll be getting a whole new set of labs in about a week from now, so I'll see what kind of new hormone patterns I have now--that is, if anything has changed at all.
I also have low Potassium. My baseline seems to be at 3.3, which is low. Not alarmingly low, but low nonetheless. Low Potassium can cause low Testosterone, but my concern over low K is with the heart muscle, and potential arrhythmias.
Kind regards,
Marc
Posted by Marc Boucher on March 25, 2007, at 11:02:54
In reply to Re: Who among you know a lot about neurotransmitters ? » Marc Boucher, posted by willyee on March 25, 2007, at 8:11:07
> I can understand one part of your frustration very well,which is this.
>
> People told me i was using so much "drugs" so i bought holistic books,and seen one of those natural docs who charge 150 an hour,cant remember the name of the type but like p docs she shroned a diploma of some sort on her wall.
>
> So from books,the net articles,this expensive doc,etc,my shevles become a stock pile of herbs nutrients and vitamins minerals of all kinds.
>
> I was so obsessed with it i lost track of reality around me,dosing trypohan,and this and that,and looking back,i did nothing for me but empty my pockets.
>
>
> Here are a few things to note about natural remedies,yess they can help,they can do so alone,or as im a fan of in conjunction with meds,however it is not recomended or ideal to do what they call MEGA DOSE on most natural stuff.
>
>
> Amino acids for example are popular for that,taking 1 -3 grams of dlpa or the like,see the body is very strong,and it will find what it needs,also the RDA is not very high.
>
> So taking what u should have and dosing it three fold is no longer NATURAL is it?? Safer perhaps in toxic means,but natural?You cause imbalances when you do this that can be quite agitating.
>
>
> Last tests are done yess,and i have articles done that were hard to find showing the fluid of depressed vs non depressed to have many MANY imbalances,HOWEVER it was believed this merly showed a end result of depression.
>
> The body reacts off the mind,and simply shuts down a bit,so a good diet and minor supplementation might help to a degree,they are however not some magic soulution,i pray im alive when this solution does come.
>
>
> You have people understandbly so dismayed to take "drugs" that they will do anything,and the websites use this fear of DRUGS to hook line and sinker them.......i.e get off drugs now! use this blend of total crap,where we threw togther some nautral and very low grade herbs and nutrients and slapped a fancy name and sticker to it,it is not a drug.
>
> Perhaps not but before u buy some insane remedy look at the ingreients and youll see how this MAGIC product breaks down ingredient wise to trace amounts of various every herbs and nutrients,a good diet,best u can anyway,water,fun choice of excersise will replace the need for that,however i have lifted weights and been into working out since the age of 16,im a pretty big boy now muscle wise and i got sick at 19,i actualy take my meds away from working out as the adrenaline outpour for me is anxiety provoking,but poing is althoug its helpful to be strong when my body is beat up from the illness,strentgh or fitness hasent been any form of cure.
>
> Good luck lets keep people from getting over on us .The supplement world is a real jungle, so one really has to know his/her stuff. That being said there are a few supplements out there that when dosed reasonably and chosen appropriately be of much benefits. The tract records for pharmaceutical drugs isn't spotless for sure. Supplements can too be dangerous--natural doesn't imply devoid of side-effects. Again, one has to look up abstracts on Pubmed and from other sources before ingesting any substance.
Nothing out there is a magic pill, whether it be drugs or supplements. Yet that doesn't mean either can't bring much needed relief.
Posted by Marc Boucher on March 25, 2007, at 11:43:36
In reply to run to see a psychologist, posted by Franz on March 25, 2007, at 8:40:36
> Why do you ask for advice if then you do not follow it?.
>
> You wasted thousands with Braverman and did not take the medications?, especially Paxil which could have helped with obsessions?.
>
> I would say with Racer that you really need to see a psychologist, a real one, not stupid counselling.
>
> I wish you find help because I see your relationship is at risk.
>
> Maybe you have a little chemical problem but for me you amplify it to an extreme degree. the problem is in your mind.
>
> Have you ever consulted a psychologist?. The longer you take, the worse.
>
> Good luck.I have this propensity to magnify things many folds, that is true about me. I also have obsessions, but again, I'm so much more at peace when I have a healthy libido. My obession over libido while not the reason it is low, over time, has probably played into making it lower. Like I said, we humans are very complex in nature. The obsession issue is one I feel confident I can work out on my own--in fact I've already made considerable progress about it.
Now onto the reason why I haven't followed Dr. Braverman's advice :
I knew someone was going to bring this up, as it is obvious that I should have followed his advice, especially considering how dear a bill I payed to consult with him. Let me reiterate that my main concern when I decided to make an appointment with his office, was because of a very low sex drive--that really was and is what is having the largest negative impact on me. It may or may not be an obsession, because when you lose a function, and a pleasurably one at that, won't you try to recover that lost function ? It's analogous to those with low thyroid functions--most patients will consult in order to have this fixed as it's a matter of health/quality of life. A function that is lost, whatever it is, prompts anyone to find help so as to get it back. The same is true physiologically speaking : homeostasis, where the body tries to make up or recover the lost functionality.
One could say : your sex drive is low *because* you're overfocusing on it, and if you released your mental grip on it, it would make a healthy return. It could be true of someone who's lost his sex drive as a result of paying way too much attention to it. However this wasn't my case back then. Yes, I rank sex as very important in my life, but so do a lot of folks out there--some willingly admit it, while others don't--but humans beings being what they are, I know that most people whatever they say value sex as having an important place in their lives.
I haven't lost my sex drive as a result of paying too much attention to it, but likely because another obsession (the one told in my initial post) caused it to spiraled out of control. However it stil has to do with obsession, definately, which I know is a huge stress both physiologically and physically speaking. Which might explain the low cortisol.
although it is in and of itself an obession, sex drive is a legitimate one despite all of what has been said. Most people with low sex drive will tell you that this can ruin their quality of life, or at least considerably detract from it. So by losing libido, I (as well as others) lose an effective stress buster.
I haven't followed through with Dr. Braverman's recommendations because Paxil in all of the users I've talked to, have told me that it killed both their erection and sex drive--now if Paxil is going to make my core issue worse, then I'll look elsewhere. Admittedly on Paxil I'd lose my obsessions over recovering my sex drive, would become impotent and with an even lower sex drive--at least I haven't heard of anyone experiencing positive benefits in those areas from Paroxetine so far. In some, it may not affect sex drive that much though.
I know people on Paxil who have said that Paxil make them calm alright, but they lose all emotions--this is not what I need at all. I'm a very sane individual other than with the obsessions I have. Recovering my sex drive would make me a happier man.
However since I'm not close-minded, I may try Paxil or other SSRI's sometime. I simply think there's a better way of dealing with it, that will not cause any further sexual problems, and at the same time help with the obessions.
Also Dr. Braverman used the shotgun/kitchen sink approach to solving my issues. I would have liked him to be more specific. Dysthymia is a vague type of diagnosis, and like I said above, couldn't the Dysthymic disorder be the result of the low sex drive ? I'm not saying it is, I'm only wondering. There are a few school of thoughts about dysthymia you know.
Dysthymia can be the result of both hormone and neurotransmitters imbalances....it can stem from :
low dhea
low cortisol
low thyroid
low serotonin
low dopamine etc...I've asked a psychiatrist about it, and that's what he told me. Since I was down before low libido struck, I'm reluctant to stick to the DD diagnosis.
OCD ? Sure, I definately have some OCD--I think this would better fit me than Dysthymia, although the two often co-exists, as well as ADHD also co-exist with depression, be it low grade or not.
Hopefully, I won't come across as a close-minded individual, cause I'm not.
Best,
Marc
Posted by Racer on March 25, 2007, at 15:26:21
In reply to Re: It doesn't sound as though it's neurochemical, posted by Marc Boucher on March 25, 2007, at 10:46:50
> >
>
> First I wish to thank you for commenting.Sure, it's what we do here...
>
> I want and have to point out that I'm not bored having sex with my girlfriend at all--Yes it seems very paradoxical that I still masterbate everyday, yet on the other hand complain of a low sex drive--I hear you. The reason I do not have much sex with my girlfriend is because I don't feel like it--now why don't I feel like it ? Because my drive is low to non-existent. Like I said, I do not get turned on much by other women, be it on the web or in real life situations.I don't think I said you were "bored" with sex with your girlfriend -- and I certainly didn't mean to suggest that you were more turned on by other women. I just said that daily masturbation is not consistent with non-existant sex drive. I still don't think it is, I think what you're talking about isn't a low libido, but a low interest in sex with a partner, for whatever reason. "Non-existant sex drive," something I've got some experience with, by the way, includes little or no masturbation. That whole area may as well not exist. Your "area" seems to exist for you, even though you aren't having the sex life you'd like.
Again, that sounds more psychological than biochemical to me.
>
>
> The other issues with personalities, I guarantee you I can deal on my own, because I'm capable of much introspection.Introspection isn't all it takes, although it can be a start. Working with a good psychologist really does make a difference. On one's own, it's too easy to fall into a pattern of thought, a pattern of perception, which may be somewhat skewed by whatever problem we've got going on to begin with. Whether that's a fixation caused by obsessive compulsive issues, or hopelessness/helplessness caused by depression. It can be very difficult to make changes to one's life without some outside perspective.
But if you're sure you don't need to see anyone to improve things, go for it. Good luck with it.
>
> Another physical issue that's been found as a result of laboratory essays, is that my 24-hour urinary Cortisol is on the low side.I think you're looking too hard at the biochemical, and missing a lot of options in the psychosocial sphere.
That said, I took Paxil for a number of years, and it didn't lower my sex drive. I had trouble achieving orgasm, but cyproheptidine helps a lot of people with that side effect. Otherwise, I had a whole lot more interest in sex than before taking the Paxil. I'm not a big fan of Paxil, per se -- Prozac or Zoloft seemed like better drugs to me -- but it's still probably worth trying.
Good luck.
Posted by Marc Boucher on March 26, 2007, at 10:25:18
In reply to Re: It doesn't sound as though it's neurochemical » Marc Boucher, posted by Racer on March 25, 2007, at 15:26:21
> > >
> >
> > First I wish to thank you for commenting.
>
> Sure, it's what we do here...
>
> >
> > I want and have to point out that I'm not bored having sex with my girlfriend at all--Yes it seems very paradoxical that I still masterbate everyday, yet on the other hand complain of a low sex drive--I hear you. The reason I do not have much sex with my girlfriend is because I don't feel like it--now why don't I feel like it ? Because my drive is low to non-existent. Like I said, I do not get turned on much by other women, be it on the web or in real life situations.
>
> I don't think I said you were "bored" with sex with your girlfriend -- and I certainly didn't mean to suggest that you were more turned on by other women. I just said that daily masturbation is not consistent with non-existant sex drive. I still don't think it is, I think what you're talking about isn't a low libido, but a low interest in sex with a partner, for whatever reason. "Non-existant sex drive," something I've got some experience with, by the way, includes little or no masturbation. That whole area may as well not exist. Your "area" seems to exist for you, even though you aren't having the sex life you'd like.
>
> Again, that sounds more psychological than biochemical to me.
> >
> >
> > The other issues with personalities, I guarantee you I can deal on my own, because I'm capable of much introspection.
>
> Introspection isn't all it takes, although it can be a start. Working with a good psychologist really does make a difference. On one's own, it's too easy to fall into a pattern of thought, a pattern of perception, which may be somewhat skewed by whatever problem we've got going on to begin with. Whether that's a fixation caused by obsessive compulsive issues, or hopelessness/helplessness caused by depression. It can be very difficult to make changes to one's life without some outside perspective.
>
> But if you're sure you don't need to see anyone to improve things, go for it. Good luck with it.
>
> >
> > Another physical issue that's been found as a result of laboratory essays, is that my 24-hour urinary Cortisol is on the low side.
>
> I think you're looking too hard at the biochemical, and missing a lot of options in the psychosocial sphere.
>
> That said, I took Paxil for a number of years, and it didn't lower my sex drive. I had trouble achieving orgasm, but cyproheptidine helps a lot of people with that side effect. Otherwise, I had a whole lot more interest in sex than before taking the Paxil. I'm not a big fan of Paxil, per se -- Prozac or Zoloft seemed like better drugs to me -- but it's still probably worth trying.
>
> Good luck.
You definately have good points above. You're most certainly right about the sex drive part. Should I had no sex drive at all, masterbation wouldn't fit in this picture. Let's sex that the quality and intensity of my orgasms and overall interest in sex is low, whereas it used to be high, and I don't experience equally as good sensations down there. I may have overlooked the psychological issues, but one shouldn't overlook the hormonal side as well. the hormonal, neurotransmitter and immune cytokines form a 3 dimensional web of mutual influence. Reason why I'm telling you this is cause when I have 10 mg DHEA, I can tell you this makes me quite horny--I've repeated this experiment a number of times and the outcome is consistent over time. So there has to be more than the psychological aspect involved.I'll tell you what a retired researcher in endocrinology has told me last year : ''behavior and psychology are neurochemistry''. Of course not everyone will agree, and even among specialists, there's disagreement, but I think his opinion should be considered, given his credentials.
Good to hear that Paxil hadn't decreased your sex drive--Most will however experience sexual dysfunctions of some kind i.e. you experienced anorgasmia, because serotonin can block Norepinephrine signaling, and Norepi. is needed for orgasm.
Posted by Franz on March 26, 2007, at 12:14:18
In reply to Re: It doesn't sound as though it's neurochemical, posted by Marc Boucher on March 26, 2007, at 10:25:18
This is the end of the thread.
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