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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 26 to 50 of 71. Go back in thread:
Posted by Squiggles on February 7, 2007, at 9:31:43
In reply to Re: Benzo Confidential -)Squiggles, posted by laima on February 7, 2007, at 9:24:13
> Bottom line, Squiggles, I think you are incorrect in your belief that clonazepam can't produce tolerance. I am living proof, and didn't stun any doctors. I brought up withdrawal in context of discussing tolerance- primarily interesting the mini-withdrawals which can apparently start as the aforementioned tolerance developes. And regular withdrawal, for I find it curious that even after total tolerance to the therapeutic benefits of clonazapam develops, real withdrawal still occurs. And sudden withdrawal from clonazapam, a benzo/anticonvulsant, brings on danger of seizures, even in people who have never had a seizure before. It's then particularly important to taper off, not quit cold.
>It can produce tolerance but the tolerance seems to stop after many yrs. of taking the same dose. I can only conclude from this that withdrawal may have taken place, and you no longer have the action of the drug's activity-- just its shadow,
in the form of changes in the brain perhaps-- which you feel if you withdraw-- much like losing disturbing a receptor state-- it never comes back if it's asleep, but it hurts when you wake it up.Squiggles
Posted by laima on February 7, 2007, at 9:56:52
In reply to Re: Benzo Confidential -)Squiggles, posted by Squiggles on February 7, 2007, at 9:31:43
I guess I dont want to go through years of daily withdrawals or rebound anxiety- whatever one wishes to call it, to find out.You're brave :)
I'm confident, based on what I've read and been told though, that after a good break, if I use clonazepam or another benzo again, it will have regained some if not all efficacy. Whatever receptors slow or shut down from the effects of the clonazepam, I understand, are capable of rebound. (Whatever specifically it is that they do- sorry I am not so technical.) I've been doing much better now anxiety than I have in eons with the way things played out, for whatever reason, so I'll opt to not use benzos for the time being, so that they will be effective for me when I, should I, ever desperately need one again.
Like I said- I'm a huge fan of clonazapam and most benzos- just pretty bummed over the tolerance problems that are possible with chronic use- the possibility that benzo won't be effective for a dire episode, as well as withdrawal issues. I do not wish to in any way offend anyone using benzos of any sort, hope I haven't come across that way.
> It can produce tolerance but the tolerance seems to stop after many yrs. of taking the same dose. I can only conclude from this that withdrawal may have taken place, and you no longer have the action of the drug's activity-- just its shadow,
> in the form of changes in the brain perhaps-- which you feel if you withdraw-- much like losing disturbing a receptor state-- it never comes back if it's asleep, but it hurts when you wake it up.
>
> Squiggles
Posted by Chairman_MAO on February 7, 2007, at 11:58:20
In reply to Benzo Confidential - clonazepam's history, posted by Squiggles on February 6, 2007, at 17:27:15
--Most benzodiazepines have no physical toxicity. "The only way to kill a rat with xanax is to bury it alive in it." I believe there is one exception to this rule, and I cannot recall the drug.
--They're miracle drugs for status epilepticus and many neurological disorders. Unfortunately, they build tolerance to this.
--They are crappy hypnotics compared to barbiturates.
--Severe panic disorder is better treated with MAOIs, IMHO, especially phenelzine. It takes ~10mg/day alprazolam to fully suppress panic attacks. That's no life I want to have.
--Their therapeutic index is so high that IMHO they should be over-the-counter, certainly so long as ethanol is.
--The dependence/withdrawal problem can actually be _worse_ than even barbiturates, as seizures have been reported up to two weeks after the last dose of xanax. This, AFAIK, does not happen with barbiturates or alcohol.
Posted by madeline on February 7, 2007, at 14:00:11
In reply to Re: Benzo Confidential - trigger maybe » madeline, posted by laima on February 7, 2007, at 8:06:44
I'm sorry this happened to you, and you know it may happen to me too. If the anxiety worsens or I just start metabolizing klonopin at a rapid rate.
It may happen. But please try and understand, I can't think about that right now. I suffered with depression/anxiety for 30 years before I knew what was wrong. Not much of a life, but I lived it.
I also tried a lot of different things to feel better before I finally sought treatment.
So, after 30 years of not having one, I finally now can live, work, love people and be loved, enjoy things - all the stuff that makes life.
It may all come crashing down tomorrow. But at least I have today. I feel good today.
I think it is kind of like asking a heart patient not to take nitroglycerin because one day it may not relieve angina or stop a heart attack.
You take it to live. You don't live to take it.
Maddie
Posted by madeline on February 7, 2007, at 14:03:32
In reply to Re: Benzo Confidential - trigger maybe, posted by Squiggles on February 7, 2007, at 8:00:06
you're right, I did misunderstand your curiosity about the klonopin.
Maybe I'm a little defensive about klonopin and all of my medications.
It's just that I really feel as though they have given me a life worth living.
sorry for the misunderstanding on my part
Maddie
Posted by ed_uk on February 7, 2007, at 15:46:18
In reply to Re: Benzo Confidential - clonazepam's history, posted by bassman on February 6, 2007, at 19:05:47
Hi Bassman
>the therapeutic dose for epilepsy is 20 mg/day
It is exceptionally rare for patients to be prescribed 20mg per day! In the treatment of epilepsy, doses in excess of 8mg per day are not usually recommended.
Posted by Squiggles on February 7, 2007, at 16:12:28
In reply to Re: Benzo Confidential - trigger maybe, posted by madeline on February 7, 2007, at 14:03:32
That's ok madeline; i've been on Dr. Bob's long
enough to see how people's experiences can
put a different light on posts-- so many posts;
sometimes you forget what the same person said 30 posts ago.no problem
Squiggles
Posted by Squiggles on February 7, 2007, at 16:40:04
In reply to Re: Benzo Confidential - trigger maybe, posted by Squiggles on February 7, 2007, at 16:12:28
I found this on Klonopin from an anti-benzo
site-- it all looks familiar from long ago;
I am posting it because there is a lot
of information here. Surpisingly Valium is
not recommended for withdrawal-- wonder where
i got that idea-- someone told me on benzo.org.uk
-- that i recall.www.prozactruth.com/clonazepam.htm
Squiggles
Posted by willyee on February 7, 2007, at 17:02:01
In reply to Re: Benzo Confidential - trigger certainly, posted by Squiggles on February 7, 2007, at 16:40:04
> I found this on Klonopin from an anti-benzo
> site-- it all looks familiar from long ago;
> I am posting it because there is a lot
> of information here. Surpisingly Valium is
> not recommended for withdrawal-- wonder where
> i got that idea-- someone told me on benzo.org.uk
> -- that i recall.
>
> www.prozactruth.com/clonazepam.htm
>
> Squiggles
Lol wow what a pro klono site,double hockey sticks ...that site might as well just say youll be about dead due to side effects,lol you wont stand,youll fall over,etc......Aside from that,on that page,i seen this comment,and i HAD to make special mention,here is the comment snipped....
"Because of strong anxiolytic properties and euphoric side-effects it is said to be among the class of 'highly potent' benzodiazepines with a higher risk of abuse, misuse and dependence than other benzodiazepines, "
Now in this snip something jumps at me like a snake.....
"euphoric side-effects "
EUPHORIC,.......KLONOPIN???? Yeah skip the cheap accesable six pack buss and feel great on klonopin.In my earnest opinion,there is NOT A SINGLE THING EUPHORIC about klonopin other than when it works and provides anxiety relieaf.There is no additional EUPHORIC effect,gotta tell you squigles,this benzo.org site,really seems grossly anti-benzo and beyone.
In fact down right upsetting,that information put the way it is seems as if its casualy trying to scare the hell out of people,it lists almost a hundred side effects of withdrawal,..i dunno its just down right disturbing to me,after reading that i know i cant and i know i dont have to,but i wish you cease the benzo info,its out there for people to get,but seeing pages like that isnt helping anyone in my opinion,why would you even want a reader to read that horrid grossly exgagerated crap,........crap total crap is what it is.
Posted by Squiggles on February 7, 2007, at 17:16:51
In reply to Re: Benzo Confidential - trigger certainly, posted by willyee on February 7, 2007, at 17:02:01
I'll stay away from the Spinning Snapper site
from now on, i promise. Though there are some
of those side effects that I can testify to--
never mind which ones, but quite a few.I have to choose my key words carefully to
find the historical origins of the manufacture
of this drug-- i just have this hunch that they
would not have made a derivative without a good
reason.Squiggles
Posted by laima on February 7, 2007, at 17:18:46
In reply to Re: Benzo Confidential - trigger maybe » laima, posted by madeline on February 7, 2007, at 14:00:11
Believe me, I understand- why do you think I took it so long? But everything came to a much happier ending than I imagined possible, despite the trouble I ran into, so all is well now. The benzos can really be life-savers.Best wishes!
> I'm sorry this happened to you, and you know it may happen to me too. If the anxiety worsens or I just start metabolizing klonopin at a rapid rate.
>
> It may happen. But please try and understand, I can't think about that right now. I suffered with depression/anxiety for 30 years before I knew what was wrong. Not much of a life, but I lived it.
>
> I also tried a lot of different things to feel better before I finally sought treatment.
>
> So, after 30 years of not having one, I finally now can live, work, love people and be loved, enjoy things - all the stuff that makes life.
>
> It may all come crashing down tomorrow. But at least I have today. I feel good today.
>
> I think it is kind of like asking a heart patient not to take nitroglycerin because one day it may not relieve angina or stop a heart attack.
>
> You take it to live. You don't live to take it.
>
> Maddie
Posted by laima on February 7, 2007, at 17:29:01
In reply to Re: Benzo Confidential - trigger certainly, posted by willyee on February 7, 2007, at 17:02:01
I agree that a lot of the claims on the site seem extreme, exaggerated--but that doesn't mean it lacks any scraps of useful or accurate information. You know a bit of how it helped me? To learn that such a thing as withdrawal exists, I was't going insane, some description of how withdrawal effects differ from the base anxiety, and by bringing up the possibility of withdrawal while still taking prescribed dose-due to tolerance. I did find her estimates of how long it would all take to be considerably, extremely longer than what I experienced, though. And yes, the site seems to endorse a specific agenda, rather than being purely unbiased. The cold withdrawal from clonazapam, in my case, was every bit as horrific as she described-but again, reading what she wrote helped me to know why I felt that way, to know I wasn't going insane, to get an idea of what else might happen. To realize my sudden severe depression was also likely a drug effect-and would pass- not a clue that life should end. To give myself a break, and to get the guts to go back to the doctor and tell him what happened.
>this benzo.org site,really seems grossly anti-benzo and beyone.
>
> In fact down right upsetting,that information put the way it is seems as if its casualy trying to scare the hell out of people,it lists almost a hundred side effects of withdrawal,..i dunno its just down right disturbing to me,after reading that i know i cant and i know i dont have to,but i wish you cease the benzo info,its out there for people to get,but seeing pages like that isnt helping anyone in my opinion,why would you even want a reader to read that horrid grossly exgagerated crap,........crap total crap is what it is.
Posted by laima on February 7, 2007, at 17:34:07
In reply to Re: Benzo Confidential - clonazepam's history » bassman, posted by ed_uk on February 7, 2007, at 15:46:18
The most I ever took at once, for a severe, severe, SEVERE panic crisis episode was somewhere in the neighborhood of 14mg over a couple of hours- I was later accused of trying to kill myself by using that much, and was told by several medical personel, that indeed, It could have. I rather doubt that, and explained my tolerance- but the point is- 20mg sounds like an extremely high dose!> Hi Bassman
>
> >the therapeutic dose for epilepsy is 20 mg/day
>
> It is exceptionally rare for patients to be prescribed 20mg per day! In the treatment of epilepsy, doses in excess of 8mg per day are not usually recommended.
>
>
Posted by notfred on February 7, 2007, at 18:25:12
In reply to Re: Benzo Confidential - trigger certainly, posted by Squiggles on February 7, 2007, at 17:16:51
"i just have this hunch that they would not have made a derivative without a good reason."
This is very common in pharamacology, once a med
proves profitable. Try out all the possible changes (derivatives) you can make to the current med and see which ones work. A new brand is born. Sometimes it is not really that different from the original and mostly just extend patents or allow other companies to come out with their "me too" version. In other cases, such as benzos, there are signicifant differences.
Posted by Phillipa on February 7, 2007, at 18:54:52
In reply to Re: Benzo Confidential - clonazepam's history » Squiggles, posted by laima on February 7, 2007, at 7:22:53
Xanax although being short acting works as a mild antidepressant too and will stop a panic attack pretty quickly especially under the tongue as my pdoc told me to do. Love Phillipa ps never had a problem cutting down or stopping it. Did switch to different ones as they came into vogue or I chose to switch.
Posted by Phillipa on February 7, 2007, at 19:04:03
In reply to Re: Benzo Confidential - trigger maybe » Squiggles, posted by madeline on February 7, 2007, at 7:47:58
Maddie well said and I'm a lifer on a benzo and at my age who cares if I need more. So far in over 30 years I haven't and I'd say l5mg of valium and .5xanax and now 3mg of lunesta is not even as strong as two mg of klonopin. I'm not worried at all. Love Phillipa
Posted by laima on February 7, 2007, at 19:18:50
In reply to Re: Benzo Confidential - clonazepam's history » laima, posted by Phillipa on February 7, 2007, at 18:54:52
The only thing is, too bad about cross-tolerance between benzos.
If it doesn't work, it doesn't work.> Xanax although being short acting works as a mild antidepressant too and will stop a panic attack pretty quickly especially under the tongue as my pdoc told me to do. Love Phillipa ps never had a problem cutting down or stopping it. Did switch to different ones as they came into vogue or I chose to switch.
Posted by Squiggles on February 7, 2007, at 19:46:27
In reply to Re: Benzo Confidential - clonazepam's history » Phillipa, posted by laima on February 7, 2007, at 19:18:50
Do you people who are prescribed benzos,
take them every day or when/as needed;
that may be the missing link. I was/am
prescribed K every single day-- it's been
about 17 yrs. now taking 0.5-1.50mg. Still
can't figure out how w/d almost killed me
with a seizure/stroke-- maybe the anti-benzo
poltergeists were responsible.Squiggles
Posted by Phillipa on February 7, 2007, at 21:18:22
In reply to Re: Benzo Confidential - clonazepam's history, posted by Squiggles on February 7, 2007, at 19:46:27
Squiggles it must have been them just kidding. Love Phillipa
Posted by Squiggles on February 8, 2007, at 7:48:26
In reply to Re: Benzo Confidential - clonazepam's history » Squiggles, posted by Phillipa on February 7, 2007, at 21:18:22
> Squiggles it must have been them just kidding. Love Phillipa
Yeah, i'm not sure i got the joke.
Here's a neighbourhood find:
1: Prog Neuropsychopharmacol Biol Psychiatry. 1983;7(4-6):669-73. Links
New concepts in benzodiazepine therapy: rebound anxiety and new indications for the more potent benzodiazepines.* Chouinard G,
* Labonte A,
* Fontaine R,
* Annable L.Abrupt withdrawal of benzodiazepine treatment in generalized anxiety patients was found to induce a rebound anxiety state in addition to minor physical symptoms. Controlled clinical trials suggest that the newer high potency benzodiazepines (alprazolam, clonazepam and bromazepam) have novel psychiatric indications and greater anxiolytic effect than the classical benzodiazepines. Alprazolam, a triazolobenzodiazepine, was superior to placebo in the treatment of panic disorder, for which medium or low potency benzodiazepines are generally inefficacious. Clonazepam, an anticonvulsant which increases 5HT synthesis, was more efficacious than lithium in reducing manic symptoms. Bromazepam, a new potent benzodiazepine, was superior to diazepam in the treatment of generalized anxiety disorder.
PMID: 6141609 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
Dr. Chouinard seems to be the local expert on this. He shows interest in the application of benzos to various psychiatric conditions. I'm not sure if I would volunteer as a guinea pig for clonazepam monotherapy for bipolar, though he does qualify it for 'manic symptoms' and not the entire spectrum. But *that* he suggests it, at least show how exceptional clonazepam must be, not just on the grounds of its potency, but its chemical idiosyncrasy.
Squiggles
Posted by laima on February 8, 2007, at 7:59:21
In reply to Re: Benzo Confidential - clonazepam's history, posted by Squiggles on February 7, 2007, at 19:46:27
If you guys are referring to anything I wrote, not kidding- sudden withdrawal from higher dose of klonopin/clonazapam, or any anticonvulsant, after a long period of daily use, carries with it a RISK of seizure. (Perhaps this is one of the reasons most doctors don't like to use more than 4mg clonazapam for most cases?) That doesn't mean if you quit cold, you definately GET seizure. It is a real and well known risk to be aware of though. If you taper off of an anticonvulsant properly, body gets a chance to readjust, less of a surprsise to the system. An important key is "taper". Naturally, if the person is already using another anticonvulsant, say lamictal, that will naturally help to protect against the risk. I've definately experienced body shocks and worsened myoclonus from too-rapid clonazapam withdrawal, though no full blown seizures. The few days I attempted to quit cold on my own were much worse, and I didn't attempt to continue. Those first real withdrawal symptoms took over a day or two to even begin to appear, because clonazapam is a long-acting benzo- so one missed dose also does not equal seizure. You'll notice that the instructions which come with medications like lamictal and clonazepam sternly warn against quitting suddenly. And again, the obvious risk factors would incude how high the dose is, how long person has been on that dose, if person is taking any other meds which carry increased risk of seizure (ie, plausably wellbutrin?), if person is taking any other meds which reduce risk of seizure, individual brain and nervous system characteristics.
Your dose doesn't sound all that high Squiggles, and I don't understand from your post if you are still taking it, or if you are saying you quit cold and lived to tell the tale. I'm sure your doctor or pharmacist would be able to advise you of the risk level for your own situation.
> Do you people who are prescribed benzos,
> take them every day or when/as needed;
> that may be the missing link. I was/am
> prescribed K every single day-- it's been
> about 17 yrs. now taking 0.5-1.50mg. Still
> can't figure out how w/d almost killed me
> with a seizure/stroke-- maybe the anti-benzo
> poltergeists were responsible.
>
> Squiggles
Posted by Squiggles on February 8, 2007, at 8:13:37
In reply to Re: Benzo Confidential )Phillipa, » Squiggles, posted by laima on February 8, 2007, at 7:59:21
>
> Your dose doesn't sound all that high Squiggles, and I don't understand from your post if you are still taking it, or if you are saying you quit cold and lived to tell the tale. I'm sure your doctor or pharmacist would be able to advise you of the risk level for your own situation.
>
It has never been high-- God bless my dr.;
I am still taking it. I was unable to withdraw because after 18 months, I got a seizure and or stroke. I was very sick-- brain wise. I increased the dose. This is after about 15 yrs. on 1.0mg. That's why I'm curious about the nature of this withdrawal. BTW, I found an article that confirms what I am suggesting about K-- that tolerance does not build. What I'm saying is that it was not due to tolerance that I had that withdrawal, but something else.
>It seems that the longer you take this benzo, the harder it is to withdraw. And it is not a novel idea to have withdrawl without tolerance in drugs, e.g. the recent reports of the SSRI withdrawal difficulties.
BTW, if anyone can suggest a tapering schedule for a person taking it for only a year-- just to reduce the dose from 3.0mg to 2.0mg, i would appreciate any advice.
Thanks.
>
> 1: Psychopharmacol Bull. 1998;34(2):199-205. Links
Long-term experience with clonazepam in patients with a primary diagnosis of panic disorder.* Worthington JJ 3rd,
* Pollack MH,
* Otto MW,
* McLean RY,
* Moroz G,
* Rosenbaum JF.Department of Psychiatry, Massachusetts General Hospital, Boston 02114-3117, USA.
This study examined the use patterns and efficacy of the high potency benzodiazepine (HPB) clonazepam in panic patients who were treated and followed naturalistically in the Massachusetts General Hospital Longitudinal Study of Panic Disorder. Of 204 patients followed over a 2-year period, 46 percent were receiving clonazepam alone or in combination with an antidepressant. Treatment was not controlled at initial evaluation or during the followup period. The main variables assessed in this analysis included global severity of the panic disorder and stability of clonazepam dose. All treatment groups tended to improve over time without significant differences in outcome between groups. Clonazepam doses remained stable over time. Results of this study suggest that treatment of panic disorder with the HPB clonazepam achieved and maintained a therapeutic benefit similar to that obtained with alternative pharmacologic treatments, without the development of tolerance as manifested by dose escalation or worsening of clinical status.
PMID: 9641001 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
Squiggles
Posted by laima on February 8, 2007, at 9:07:34
In reply to Re: Benzo Confidential )Phillipa,, posted by Squiggles on February 8, 2007, at 8:13:37
I just don't know what to say about the study you found about tolerance- I've seen that some respectable sources say no tolerance with clonazapam, other credible sources say yes. My experience was a yes, in that a steady dose would completely lose efficacy, raising it would reinstate efficacy, that would lose efficacy, then dose would be raised...I went from .5 knocking me out, to 2 doing absolutely nothing. And off, my base anxiety turns out to be less than what it was when I started clonazapam in the first place-whereas I was convinced it was FAR worse. For whatever reason, the fact for me is, I went from bad anxiety to clonazapam use, which initially resulted in no anxiety or just very little-- then it steadily got worse. A lot worse. Despite dose being raised by doctor, several times. Never ever had any panic episodes before starting clonazapam and being on it for long time. Several months out, again, anxiety near vaporized, no panic attacks, no hyperventilation. And those were very common experiences for me while on clonazapam! What mechanism caused this? I can't help but believe it was related to building up a tolerance, and experiencing chronic mild withdrawal. That's the best explanaition I've got. And no, haven't used the zyprexa at all for over a month either, so it's not that helping me now.
So maybe the "tolerance question" is a matter of semantics, or a matter of if they are talking about the anti-convulsant properties or the anti-anxiety properties?
I don't know what a proper taper schedule would be- Mine was a mere 3 weeks, and I was miserably anxious, hyperventilation, even emergency room visit. Of course, at the very end of my using it, I took up to 4-5 mg at a time more than once in desperate effort to (unsucesssfully) deal with some excruciating panic episodes. (That probably didn't exactly help matters.) Though the zyprexa (2.5-5 mg at night) certainly helped, especially with sleep, I still think this taper was way too fast for me, anxiety- wise. Chopped by .5 every few days to a week. Dr.'s philosophy was that prolonging it would prolong my misery. On the other hand, Heather Ashton lists some various detailed schedules on her site, and she recommends a much slower and gradual taper.
I've definately also gathered an impression that the longer one uses this drug, the harder to withdraw- but that sure doesn't make it impossible or mean it's not worth the effort. I don't know who has got the "misery avoidance" philosphy better figured out- the Ashton style long taper, or my doctor's more rapid, get it over with taper. I suppose it might even be a matter of opinion.
Posted by Squiggles on February 8, 2007, at 9:25:24
In reply to Re: Benzo Confidential ) » Squiggles, posted by laima on February 8, 2007, at 9:07:34
> So maybe the "tolerance question" is a matter of semantics, or a matter of if they are talking about the anti-convulsant properties or the anti-anxiety properties?Is it possible that the paradoxical results are dependent on a model of clonazepam putting it in the same class as the anxiolytic benzos and old barbiturates, and alcohol? An anti-epileptic drug may share some of the same brain receptor stimulation but have other brain effects or different ones.
I am looking at some German studies in PubMed now, which talks about ligands (that awful German language-- after Mark Twain:-), and some poor animals have been put to the test to see how chronic administration and discontinuation of various benzos, result. It's over my head, but i'll try to understand some articles.
What you say about having nasty withdrawal effects, reinstating the dose or raising and yet still getting no stability, is interesting.
My withdrawal which took so long, and just got worse, better, worse, and then led to seizure and/or stroke, may indicate a change in a receptor (i've never seen a recepor) which no longer responds to the drug. And after some time that particular receptor or string of them, may have changed forever--is that possible? The reinstatement, may just be a fresh start on the effects of discontinuation.>
> I don't know what a proper taper schedule would be- Mine was a mere 3 weeks, and I was miserably anxious, hyperventilation, even emergency room visit. Of course, at the very end of my using it, I took up to 4-5 mg at a time more than once in desperate effort to (unsucesssfully) deal with some excruciating panic episodes. (That probably didn't exactly help matters.) Though the zyprexa (2.5-5 mg at night) certainly helped, especially with sleep, I still think this taper was way too fast for me, anxiety- wise. Chopped by .5 every few days to a week. Dr.'s philosophy was that prolonging it would prolong my misery. On the other hand, Heather Ashton lists some various detailed schedules on her site, and she recommends a much slower and gradual taper.I see some point to your dr.'s view-- but again I don't know much about this drug-- would he say the same about Xanax for example? I doubt it.
Yeah, I have Dr. Ashton's book-- clonazepam is tricky though-- but I will take a look.
Thanks
>
> I've definately also gathered an impression that the longer one uses this drug, the harder to withdraw- but that sure doesn't make it impossible or mean it's not worth the effort. I don't know who has got the "misery avoidance" philosphy better figured out- the Ashton style long taper, or my doctor's more rapid, get it over with taper. I suppose it might even be a matter of opinion.
Posted by laima on February 8, 2007, at 9:35:28
In reply to Re: Benzo Confidential ), posted by Squiggles on February 8, 2007, at 9:25:24
Here’s what medline says:
http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/druginfo/medmaster/a682279.html“Tolerance may develop with long-term or excessive use, making the drug less effective.
They don’t mention seizure risk or say much of anything about withdrawal, though.
Another source does mention seizures:
http://www.mentalhealth.com/drug/p30-r04.html“Abrupt withdrawal of clonazepam particularly in those patients on long-term, high dose therapy, may precipitate status epilepticus. Therefore, as with any other anticonvulsants, gradual withdrawal is essential when discontinuing clonazepam. While clonazepam is being gradually withdrawn, the simultaneous substitution of incremental doses of another anticonvulsant may be indicated.”
Drugs.com also warns of possibility of seizures:
http://www.drugs.com/clonazepam.htmlDo not stop taking Clonazepam suddenly if you have been taking it for several weeks. Stopping suddenly could cause seizures and withdrawal symptoms. Talk to your doctor if you need to stop treatment with Clonazepam.
Wikipedia is always interesting, and includes this tidbit:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clonazepam“Up to 30% of individuals treated on a long-term basis develop a form of dependence known as "low-dose-dependence". These patients do not develop a tolerance, and do not need increasingly large doses to experience the euphoric side effects of the drug.”
(So what does that mean?)
Wikipedia also has a link to the official package insert for clonazapam.
And here’s a link to the ever-controversial Heather Ashton’s detailed withdrawal tables and advice. I’ve actually personally found much of her information to be quite helpful, and thought some of it sounded exaggerated.http://www.benzo.org.uk/manual/bzsched.htm
I realize these are not hard-hitting science sites, but why gamble with chances?
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