![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 12 to 36 of 133. Go back in thread:
Posted by Phillipa on February 4, 2007, at 18:54:15
In reply to Re: Ashton Rocks! » bassman, posted by Quintal on February 4, 2007, at 16:46:07
Quintal how do you explain the fact that at age 24 I had severe panic attacks that required going to the hospital to ER's and those docs prescribed benzos and mepbrobamate. I took all till anxiety calmed down and also was raising three small children and running a business. My anxiety was less so I just stopped the mepbrobamate and when I told the doc he acted surprised that I did this. But I didn't need it anymore. Stayed with the valium and gradually cut down to 5mg a day. Then a period of time where I took no benzos at all. I was drinking only 3 beers a night at the time. Then years later when my autoimmune system crashed I was forced to up benzos again I was on xanax . But once the synthroid kicked in I lowered the dose again on my own. And I today take the same amount as I did over 30years ago and recently cut from 20mg of valium to l5 in one night. Ups and downs over the years and different benzos and Mother, Father, Sister, her kids my kids all take a benzo so I believe there is a biological gene or something missing in all our Gaba systems. Now the ad's do nothing for me. So I try and take a minimal dose of luvox and personally think they do nothing for me. Love Phillipa
Posted by notfred on February 4, 2007, at 19:12:04
In reply to Re: Ashton Rocks! » bassman, posted by Quintal on February 4, 2007, at 16:46:07
"Oh come on bassman....benzos do lead to addiction - I know they do because I became an addict that started with legal prescriptions; they do lead to tolerance - that's so obvious and well documented it's hardly worth arguing over; they do lead to dependence, as do nearly all psychiatric drugs taken long term."
>
>The fact that I have taken benzos from over 20 yrs
without increasing the dose nor taking them every day would indicate this is not a absolute statement.
Posted by Quintal on February 4, 2007, at 19:26:34
In reply to Re: Ashton Rocks!, posted by notfred on February 4, 2007, at 19:12:04
>The fact that I have taken benzos from over 20 yrs
>without increasing the dose nor taking them every day would indicate this is not a absolute statement.Obviously. I think you know me well enough now to know that I know that as well. It is possible to cover all eventualities in speech and use vast, rambling, convoluted sentences like this to make sure all points are covered, but it tends to bore the *rse off the reader who will mostly be aware of these obvious subtleties anyway. For that reason I try to be as concise as possible, though I realise it will leave me vulnerable to nitpicking and pedantry from certain individuals.
You're right - tolerance to benzos is not universal, but it is very common. Most people develop some degree of tolerance to the initial dose. The same can be said of other drugs of abuse in some circumstances.
Q
Posted by notfred on February 4, 2007, at 19:37:46
In reply to Re: Ashton Rocks! » notfred, posted by Quintal on February 4, 2007, at 19:26:34
> Obviously. I think you know me well enough now to know that I know that as well. It is possible to cover all eventualities in speech and use vast, rambling, convoluted sentences like this to make sure all points are covered, but it tends to bore the *rse off the reader who will mostly be aware of these obvious subtleties anyway. For that reason I try to be as concise as possible, though I realise it will leave me vulnerable to nitpicking and pedantry from certain individuals.
>
The difference between an absolute and general statement is worlds apart.
Posted by Squiggles on February 4, 2007, at 19:45:21
In reply to Re: Ashton Rocks!, posted by notfred on February 4, 2007, at 19:37:46
I do not believe that clonazepam was available
in the UK. Did Professor Ashton work with
clonazepam withdrawal situations? I ask because
as i have said before, it is the one benzo that
you can take almost indefinitely without raising
the dose to catch up to tolerance. All this stuff is availabe on the Merck about withdrawal etc., nothing new really.Squiggles
Posted by Quintal on February 4, 2007, at 19:48:35
In reply to Re: Ashton Rocks! » Quintal, posted by Phillipa on February 4, 2007, at 18:54:15
I'm not sure what you're asking me to explain Phillipa? You suffered severe panic attacks and were prescribed the standard anxiolytics used at that time. You've managed to wean yourself off them for short periods of time when you had little stress - that's good and part of what I mean by the goal of treatment being independent wellness. You seem to know this instinctively but it's something that seems to be forgotten or ignored in psychiatry now, where the focus is most often on obsessively fine-tuning neurochemistry with cocktails of drugs - most of which we are expected to stay on indefinitely under the premise of correcting some sort of hereditary deficit.
I don't really accept this notion any more because as you've already said, your anxiety decreases depending on your circumstances - to the point where you no longer need benzos. The goal of therapy is to get you to reorganize your life so that the demands of your circumstances match your limitations and temperament. Using drugs to push boundaries and alter personality is to me more suggestive of performance enhancement than treatment of a medical condition.
Q
Posted by Quintal on February 4, 2007, at 20:05:22
In reply to Re: Ashton Rocks!, posted by Squiggles on February 4, 2007, at 19:45:21
Clonazepam is available in the UK as the brand name Rivotril, but it is mostly used to treat rare forms of epilepsy and has no license for anxiety. I managed to get a locum GP to prescribe it off label for me though. I wrote a post on my experiences with Rivotril earlier today so I won't repeat it all here. Here is a link to that post:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20070201/msgs/729575.html
I imagine Prof. Ashton worked with international colleagues to arrive at her conclusions for drugs like Xanax and Klonopin. She has also produced withdrawal schedules and equivalence charts for some very obscure and rarely used benzos. Prof. Ashton doesn't usually deal with personal enquiries about benzodiazepine withdrawal but she may be willing to clarify academic details of her work to interested parties. You can contact her here if you wish:
Department of Psychiatry
Royal Victoria Infirmary
Newcastle upon Tyne
NE1 4LP
England UKQ
Posted by notfred on February 4, 2007, at 20:28:53
In reply to Re: Ashton Rocks! » bassman, posted by Quintal on February 4, 2007, at 16:46:07
"She is. Remember she ran a specialist benzodiazepine withdrawal clinic from 1982-1994 and that is where she obtained most of her data and experience. She published 'The Ashton Manual' free on the internet after being forced by law to retire from the NHS at the age of 65, so that her work could continue to help people who would otherwise have little or no support. I think it's awful Heather is so villified for doing that."
When all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.
Posted by Quintal on February 4, 2007, at 20:42:34
In reply to Re: Ashton Rocks!, posted by notfred on February 4, 2007, at 20:28:53
>When all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.
I get the impression you're trying to troll me somewhat notfred. If not, would you kindly clarify and get to the point of your argument instead of vicious sniping? I find all this cat-like behaviour very wearing.Q
Posted by Phillipa on February 4, 2007, at 20:46:55
In reply to Re: Ashton Rocks! » Phillipa, posted by Quintal on February 4, 2007, at 19:48:35
Quintal I have to disagree to a point. My life is organized to create the least amount of anxiety. But what happens for instance when you Son loses his eyesight and two fingertips in Dessert Storm and you must keep working and at the same time travel to Washington DC to the hospital where he is being flown in from Lanstal Germany. Your stress rises whether you like it or not and no amt of CBT can change the outcome. Or losing your identity nursing which was your life and getting old nothing can change that except hard theraphy work to change your thinking and while doing this you need help with a benzo or you won't get it know what I mean? Love Phillipa
Posted by dbc on February 4, 2007, at 20:47:07
In reply to Re: Ashton Rocks!, posted by notfred on February 4, 2007, at 20:28:53
Despite how nice it is what she said The Ashton Manual is complete and utter b*llshit. It says the titration period for 2mg of klonopin is 12 months! I mean really...seriously...thats absurd.
Also benzo.uk.org is an anti benzo site and if you dare to read their forums you will find out its a complete haven for anti medication, anti psychiatrist, anti basically everything to do with mental health care. They're like cultists...maybe they are scientologists, i really dont know.
Posted by Quintal on February 4, 2007, at 21:05:08
In reply to Re: Ashton Rocks! » Quintal, posted by Phillipa on February 4, 2007, at 20:46:55
Then you may look to withdraw from the harshness of reality and seek comfort in a pill, which might be what you've done. I'm sorry to hear about your son's injury but my liking for you as a person is separate from the truth of the matter; pleas for sympathy are a weak form of argument.
Perhaps humanistic counselling would be more appropriate in this context? They are more willing to allow you to explore feelings in whatever way you find comfortable. CBT tends to be much more clinical and restrictive. Have you tried this approach?
Q
Posted by Quintal on February 4, 2007, at 21:19:12
In reply to Re: Ashton Rocks!, posted by dbc on February 4, 2007, at 20:47:07
Heather Ashton has produced the most comprehensive and accurate guide to benzodiazepine use and withdrawal ever written. She and her immediate colleagues are not scientologists. I am as sure of it as I possibly can be. That accusation is all too common and easy to throw around here as defensiveness toward any criticism of current psychiatric practice. It is also the last resort of people who know they are out of their depth and have no sound argument to present.
It seems to me that you're speaking out in anger against some perceived attack. I suggest you take them time to calm down and re-read the Ashton Manual thoroughly. I'm sure you will find that on the whole it is a thorough and well researched scientific document. I'm curious about the example you cite - would you please provide a link and quotation from the passage in question?
Here is a brief account of Prof. Heather Ashton's career - an impressive CV not typical of the average scientologist I'm sure:
__________________________________________________ABOUT PROFESSOR C HEATHER ASHTON, DM, FRCP
Chrystal Heather Ashton DM, FRCP is Emeritus Professor of Clinical Psycho-pharmacology at the University of Newcastle upon Tyne, England.
Professor Ashton is a graduate of the University of Oxford and obtained a First Class Honours Degree (BA) in Physiology in 1951. She qualified in Medicine (BM, BCh, MA) in 1954 and gained a postgraduate Doctor of Medicine (DM) in 1956. She qualified as MRCP (Member of the Royal College of Physicians, London) in 1958 and was elected FRCP (Fellow of the Royal College of Physicians, London) in 1975. She also became National Health Service Consultant in Clinical Psychopharmacology in 1975 and National Health Service Consultant in Psychiatry in 1994.
She has worked at the University of Newcastle upon Tyne as researcher (Lecturer, Senior Lecturer, Reader and Professor) and clinician since 1965, first in the Department of Pharmacology and latterly in the Department of Psychiatry. Her research has centred, and continues, on the effects of psychotropic drugs (nicotine, cannabis, benzodiazepines, antidepressants and others) on the brain and behaviour in man. Her main clinical work was in running a benzodiazepine withdrawal clinic for 12 years from 1982-1994.
She is at present involved with the North East Council for Addictions (NECA) of which she is former Vice-Chairman of the Executive Committee on which she still serves. She continues to give advice on benzodiazepine problems to counsellors and is patron of the Bristol & District Tranquilliser Project. She was generic expert in the UK benzodiazepine litigation in the 1980s and has been involved with the UK organisation Victims of Tranquillisers (VOT). She has submitted evidence about benzodiazepines to the House of Commons Health Select Committee.
She has published approximately 250 papers in professional journals, books and chapters in books on psychotropic drugs of which over 50 concern benzodiazepines. She has given evidence to various Government committees on tobacco smoking, cannabis and benzodiazepines and has given invited lectures on benzodiazepines in the UK, Australia, Sweden, Switzerland and other countries.
http://www.benzo.org.uk/manual/bzcha00.htm#3
__________________________________________________Q
Posted by dbc on February 4, 2007, at 21:39:08
In reply to Re: Ashton Rocks! » dbc, posted by Quintal on February 4, 2007, at 21:19:12
My problem was not with ashton nor did i say anything negative of her except that the titration schedules she reccomends seem extremely long and not needed.
As for benzo.uk.org, the individuals on their forums could very well be scientologists among other things as their behaviour and general attitude is rabid and scary.
Posted by Quintal on February 4, 2007, at 21:42:14
In reply to Re: Ashton Rocks!, posted by dbc on February 4, 2007, at 21:39:08
>As for benzo.uk.org, the individuals on their forums could very well be scientologists among other things as their behaviour and general attitude is rabid and scary.
No sh*t? I wonder what those people would make of the behaviour of some of the people posting here in defence of benzodiazepines?
Q
Posted by dbc on February 4, 2007, at 21:58:23
In reply to Re: Ashton Rocks! » dbc, posted by Quintal on February 4, 2007, at 21:42:14
> No sh*t? I wonder what those people would make of the behaviour of some of the people posting here in defence of benzodiazepines?
>
> QYes, because my panic disorder is an ideology and im just rationalizing poorly when i show up at emergency rooms at 3 am complaining of a stroke and passing out repeatedly due to hyperventilation and having a blood pressure so high im asked more than once "so you walked into the emergency room on your own". This is a belief and not a mental disorder that i have. The benzos that i take are an extension of this ideology.
By the way im in CBT/talk therapy and have been previously.
Posted by Quintal on February 4, 2007, at 22:12:32
In reply to Re: Ashton Rocks!, posted by dbc on February 4, 2007, at 21:58:23
As usual I'm not sure what you're getting at. I am not anti-med nor anti-psychiatrist, and I follow no fixed ideology.
>im just rationalizing poorly when i show up at emergency rooms at 3 am complaining of a stroke and passing out repeatedly due to hyperventilation and having a blood pressure so high im asked more than once "so you walked into the emergency room on your own".
That's right. Poor rationalization. You're not having a stroke - that's your imagination. I know the feeling since I too suffered panic attacks and extremely high blood pressure when I quit clonazepam cold turkey.
>The benzos that i take are an extension of this ideology.
The benzos that you take are just chemicals relax both your body and your over-active imagination during a crisis. They are not part of an ideology unless you choose to make them so.
>By the way im in CBT/talk therapy and have been previously.
Good to hear.
Q
Posted by yxibow on February 4, 2007, at 22:22:45
In reply to Re: Ashton Rocks!, posted by dbc on February 4, 2007, at 21:39:08
> My problem was not with ashton nor did i say anything negative of her except that the titration schedules she reccomends seem extremely long and not needed.
I would concur on that
> As for benzo.uk.org, the individuals on their forums could very well be scientologists among other things as their behaviour and general attitude is rabid and scary.
Its not clear that benzo.org.uk is "run" by her -- it seems to be some other person disseminating information. I'm not clear of the connection between the foresaid individual and the site.
But while some people may get benefit from that site on here and we've gotten into ridiculous nanny-gate deputy slaps about the site, I think I will stay out of the foray because while I too think the whole thing is kind of scary and we've had several "trolls" about benzodiazepines not to mention a recent person I won't mention who seems to be anti-medicine and new to the board.
Posted by Quintal on February 4, 2007, at 23:06:29
In reply to Re: Ashton Rocks! » dbc, posted by yxibow on February 4, 2007, at 22:22:45
__________________________________________________
> My problem was not with ashton nor did i say anything negative of her except that the titration schedules she reccomends seem extremely long and not needed.
I would concur on that
__________________________________________________In his initial post dbc posted this statement:
>Despite how nice it is what she said The Ashton Manual is complete and utter b*llshit.
Hardly a complement to the venerable Prof. Heather Ashton.
Prof. Ashton's suggested taper schedules are extremely long so as to give people plenty of space and time to adjust their lives around the schedule and produce no withdrawal symptoms at all if followed correctly. She has always maintained that people should adjust the schedules according to their own preferences and reduce the dose at their own pace, not hers, the doctors, the psychiatrist's or anyone else's. Believe me, that way is much better than a Gestapo style 'tough love' withdrawal advocated by some of the true ani-benzo fanatics.
>Its not clear that benzo.org.uk is "run" by her -- it seems to be some other person disseminating information. I'm not clear of the connection between the foresaid individual and the site.
I don't think benzo.org is run by Heather Ashton. I also suspect she has never launched a publicity campaign against benzos herself, but she has taken up invitations to give evidence as a professional speaker on their behalf. I know she has done her best to dissociate herself from those groups who have tried to use her work as a weapon in their scare-mongering to get benzos off the market.
>I think I will stay out of the foray because while I too think the whole thing is kind of scary and we've had several "trolls" about benzodiazepines not to mention a recent person I won't mention who seems to be anti-medicine and new to the board.
I hope you're not trying to imply any connection between myself and that person yxibow? By co-incidence he contacted me via RemedyFind some months ago and I told him my honest opinion then; that I think his perceived lingering symptoms of EPS from a single dose of amisulpride are psychosomatic and the result of negative expectations. Everything I've seen posted here since by that individual has reinforced my suspicions.
I started this thread when I came across Prof. Ashton's letter to Rosie Winterton earlier today when researching for a quote for a different thread. I thought it was excellent and disproved that she is not a benzophobic fanatic that will stop at nothing to rid the UK of those drugs and crush their users. That idea is just absurd, yet it remains incredibly popular here.
I think it's about time someone stood up for Heather Ashton with all the hard work she's done to help people caught up in benzo addiction against their will. What she did for benzos in the 1980s is similar to what many people here wish someone would do for drugs like Paxil and Effexor with their claims of unparalleled freedom from side-effects and withdrawal symptoms - she was an active professional that stood up to the medical profession against fierce criticism, to defend people who were suffering with no support and much ignorance and denial on the part of their doctors. I think she deserves some cheer for that and recognition for her effort, not derision and mindless sniping.>I think I will stay out of the foray
You entered the foray when you decided to post here.
Q
Posted by Quintal on February 5, 2007, at 0:17:37
In reply to Re: Ashton Rocks! » dbc, posted by yxibow on February 4, 2007, at 22:22:45
Something seems wrong with my last post - can't seem to load it into my web browser. I'll repost it here just in case it's disabled for some reason.
__________________________________________________
> My problem was not with ashton nor did i say anything negative of her except that the titration schedules she reccomends seem extremely long and not needed.
I would concur on that
__________________________________________________In his initial post dbc posted this statement:
>Despite how nice it is what she said The Ashton Manual is complete and utter b*llshit.
Hardly a complement to the venerable Prof. Heather Ashton.
Prof. Ashton's suggested taper schedules are extremely long so as to give people plenty of space and time to adjust their lives around the schedule and produce no withdrawal symptoms at all if followed correctly. She has always maintained that people should adjust the schedules according to their own preferences and reduce the dose at their own pace, not hers, the doctors, the psychiatrist's or anyone else's. Believe me, that way is much better than a Gestapo style 'tough love' withdrawal advocated by some of the true ani-benzo fanatics.
>Its not clear that benzo.org.anti is "run" by her -- it seems to be some other person disseminating information. I'm not clear of the connection between the foresaid individual and the site.
I don't think benzo.org is run by Heather Ashton. I also suspect she has never launched a publicity campaign against benzos herself, but she has taken up invitations to give evidence as a professional speaker on their behalf. I know she has done her best to dissociate herself from those groups who have tried to use her work as a weapon in their scare-mongering to get benzos off the market.
>I too think the whole thing is kind of scary and we've had several "trolls" about benzodiazepines not to mention a recent person I won't mention who seems to be anti-medicine and new to the board.
You finding a particular poster's views upsetting does not make them a 'troll'. I hope you're not trying to imply any connection between myself and that person yxibow? By co-incidence he contacted me via RemedyFind some months ago and I told him my honest opinion then; that I think his perceived lingering symptoms of EPS from a single dose of amisulpride are psychosomatic and the result of negative expectations. Everything I've seen posted here since by that individual has reinforced my suspicions.
I started this thread when I came across Prof. Ashton's letter to Rosie Winterton earlier today when researching for a quote for a different thread. I thought it was excellent and strongly suggested that she is not a benzophobic fanatic that will stop at nothing to rid the UK of those drugs and crush their users. That idea is just absurd, yet it remains incredibly popular here.
I think it's about time someone stood up for Heather Ashton with all the hard work she's done to help people caught up in benzo addiction against their will. What she did for benzos in the 1980s is similar to what many people here wish someone would do for drugs like Paxil and Effexor with their claims of unparalleled freedom from side-effects and withdrawal symptoms - she was an active professional that stood up to the medical profession against fierce criticism, to defend people who were suffering with no support and much ignorance and denial on the part of their doctors. I think she deserves some cheer for that and recognition for her effort, not derision and mindless sniping.>I think I will stay out of the foray
You entered the foray when you decided to post here.
Q
Posted by yxibow on February 5, 2007, at 1:04:39
In reply to Re: Ashton Rocks! » yxibow, posted by Quintal on February 5, 2007, at 0:17:37
> Something seems wrong with my last post - can't seem to load it into my web browser. I'll repost it here just in case it's disabled for some reason.
The board ate it, I already saw that
__________________________________________________
>
> > My problem was not with ashton nor did i say anything negative of her except that the titration schedules she reccomends seem extremely long and not needed.
>
> I would concur on that
> __________________________________________________
>
> In his initial post dbc posted this statement:
>
> >Despite how nice it is what she said The Ashton Manual is complete and utter b*llshit.
>
> Hardly a complement to the venerable Prof. Heather Ashton.Well he's entitled to his opinion too.
> Prof. Ashton's suggested taper schedules are extremely long so as to give people plenty of space and time to adjust their lives around the schedule and produce no withdrawal symptoms at all if followed correctly. She has always maintained that people should adjust the schedules according to their own preferences and reduce the dose at their own pace, not hers, the doctors, the psychiatrist's or anyone else's. Believe me, that way is much better than a Gestapo style 'tough love' withdrawal advocated by some of the true ani-benzo fanatics.Benzo tapers should be something done as a collaborative effort between a rational psychopharmacologist and his or her patient. But that doesn't mean that it takes 2 years to get off of a few milligrams of Valium nor does it say you should drop benzodiazepines like a lead brick.
I am well versed in the latter as engaging in that myself only to have half of the Tranxene given back by the worst psychiatrist I've ever had in my life and have permanent scalp spasms and head to toe "lockup", 10 years later.But, what do you figure of a male hating psychiatrist who ran the college psych counseling place like her fiefdom.
Granted they don't come often and aren't painful but I would oh so like Soma rather than Robaxin. At least I don't crack my neck now as much.
Anyhow, I think I've described that before. It still doesn't mean that I'm anti-benzo. In fact I think they're the safest psychiatric medications when used as directed and I would be in far worse condition now without them having a rare disorder.
No arguments of the prior, but it also shouldn't be purely run by the patient, witness my earlier foray that I just mentioned.
> >Its not clear that benzo.org.anti is "run" by her -- it seems to be some other person disseminating information. I'm not clear of the connection between the foresaid individual and the site.
>
> I don't think benzo.org is run by Heather Ashton. I also suspect she has never launched a publicity campaign against benzos herself, but she has taken up invitations to give evidence as a professional speaker on their behalf. I know she has done her best to dissociate herself from those groups who have tried to use her work as a weapon in their scare-mongering to get benzos off the market.
That's good, because that site is well.. I won't go further.> >I too think the whole thing is kind of scary and we've had several "trolls" about benzodiazepines not to mention a recent person I won't mention who seems to be anti-medicine and new to the board.
>
> You finding a particular poster's views upsetting does not make them a 'troll'. I hope you're not trying to imply any connection between myself and that person yxibow?
No its not directed at you at all. I'm not going to target individuals but a certain poster seemed vigorous about neuroleptics and spewed arguments including lumping criminals with the "mentally ill", which was rather offensive and never addressed, and then suggested that someone with an MAOI should use Luvox to address their akathisia. That's what I mean by trolling -- the deliberate posting of inflammatory and odd arguments to generate large amounts of waste of time posts.suggested that she is not a benzophobic fanatic that will stop at nothing to rid the UK of those drugs and crush their users. That idea is just absurd, yet it remains incredibly popular here.
Well that's fine, I didn't argue about that. The UK has always been behind with benzodiazepine dispensing.
> I think it's about time someone stood up for Heather Ashton with all the hard work she's done to help people caught up in benzo addiction against their will. What she did for benzos in the 1980s is similar to what many people here wish someone would do for drugs like Paxil and Effexor with their claims of unparalleled freedom from side-effects and withdrawal symptoms - she was an active professional that stood up to the medical profession against fierce criticism, to defend people who were suffering with no support and much ignorance and denial on the part of their doctors. I think she deserves some cheer for that and recognition for her effort, not derision and mindless sniping.
I'm not sure about the against their will part, but again I'll agree to disagree.The sniping came from the person who runs the site, not how decorated this professor may be.
>
> >I think I will stay out of the foray
>
> You entered the foray when you decided to post here.Perhaps, but we know that we have on file to agree to disagree already.
Posted by Squiggles on February 5, 2007, at 7:53:26
In reply to Re: Ashton Rocks! » Quintal, posted by yxibow on February 5, 2007, at 1:04:39
Here is what the Merck Manual has on benzos:
"Anxiolytics and Sedatives
Use of anxiolytics and sedatives (hypnotics) for medical purposes is common. Intoxication, with physical and mental impairment, can occur with acute use. Repetitive use can lead to abuse or dependence.Tolerance and tachyphylaxis develop irregularly and incompletely, so considerable behavioral, mood, and cognitive disturbances persist, even in a regular user, depending on the dosage and the drug's pharmacodynamic effects. Some cross-tolerance exists between alcohol and barbiturates and nonbarbiturate anxiolytics and sedatives, including benzodiazepines. (Barbiturates and alcohol are strikingly similar in the dependence, withdrawal symptoms, and chronic intoxication they produce.) When intake of anxiolytics and sedatives is reduced below a critical level, a self-limited withdrawal syndrome ensues.
Symptoms and Signs
Acute use: The signs of progressive anxiolytic and sedative intoxication are depression of superficial reflexes, fine lateral-gaze nystagmus, slightly decreased alertness with coarse or rapid nystagmus, ataxia, slurred speech, and postural unsteadiness. Further progression results in nystagmus on forward gaze, somnolence, marked ataxia with falling, confusion, deep sleep, constricted pupils, respiratory depression, and, ultimately, death. Patients taking large doses of sedatives frequently have difficulty thinking, slow speech and comprehension (with some dysarthria), poor memory, faulty judgment, narrowed attention span, and emotional lability.
Chronic use: In susceptible patients, psychologic dependence on the drug may develop rapidly, and after only a few weeks, attempts to stop using the drug exacerbate insomnia and result in restlessness, disturbing dreams, frequent awakening, and feelings of tension in the early morning. The extent of physical dependence is related to dose and duration of use; eg, pentobarbitalSome Trade Names
NEMBUTAL
Drug Information
200 mg/day taken for many months may not induce significant tolerance, but 300 mg/day for > 3 mo or 500 to 600 mg/day for 1 mo may induce a withdrawal syndrome when the drug is stopped.Withdrawal from barbiturates taken in large doses produces an abrupt withdrawal syndrome in the form of a severe, frightening, and potentially life-threatening illness similar to delirium tremens. Occasionally, even after properly managed withdrawal over 1 to 2 wk, a seizure occurs. Within the first 12 to 20 h after withdrawal of a short-acting barbiturate, the untreated patient becomes increasingly restless, tremulous, and weak. By the 2nd day, the tremulousness becomes more prominent, deep tendon reflexes may be increased, and the patient becomes weaker. During the 2nd and 3rd days, seizures occur in 75% of patients who were taking ≥ 800 mg/day. Seizures may progress to status epilepticus and death. From the 2nd to the 5th day, the untreated withdrawal syndrome includes delirium, insomnia, confusion, and frightening visual and auditory hallucinations. Hyperpyrexia and dehydration often occur.
Withdrawal from benzodiazepines produces a similar withdrawal syndrome, although it is rarely as severe or life threatening. Onset may be slow because the drugs remain in the body a long time. A withdrawal syndrome of varying severity has been reported in people who have taken therapeutic doses, although the prevalence of this unusual phenomenon is unknown. Withdrawal may be most severe in those who used drugs with rapid absorption and quick decline in serum levels....."
Much of what is said here is similar to Dr. Ashton's knowledge of benzos; you might do a search on PubMed as well. One cannot argue, with any serious credence, that the Merck Manual is authored by Scientologists. The only difference between the Benzo group and the mainstream group is that doctors in the Benzo group think it's a good idea to stay away from benzos, while mainstream doctors prescribe them as needed. Ideally, imho, benzos should be administered as needed, and when needed, and if needed, AND monitored during discontinuation.
Squiggles
Posted by valene on February 5, 2007, at 10:14:55
In reply to Re: Ashton Rocks!, posted by dbc on February 4, 2007, at 21:39:08
> As for benzo.uk.org, the individuals on their forums could very well be scientologists among other things as their behaviour and general attitude is rabid and scary.
I once read the site and even joined the forum a few years ago. Benzo.uk is owned by a guy who was "addicted to valium", said it ruined his life, and successfully sued his doctor and then set up the site.
When you join the forum, you must agree and I quote "benzodiazepines were created in the depths of hell by the very devil himself, and distributed freely here on earth by his demons". Hope that answers some questions about the origins of benzo.uk or whatever. I refuse to ever go back there, as it scared the daylights out of me with the extreme notions that *any* and all psych. meds are horrendous and people got thrown off the forum for taking a vitamin (not kidding).
Val
Posted by Meri-Tuuli on February 5, 2007, at 10:25:09
In reply to Re: Ashton Rocks!, posted by Squiggles on February 5, 2007, at 7:53:26
What is, then, in peoples' opinion, the reason why the UK is so particulary 'benzophobic'? I always assumed (wrongly?) that it was down to Prof Aston's work. To be fair, I thought that she was some sort of academic anomaly, but perhaps I can see what Quintal is saying. But then, I'm curious, what caused the benzophobia?
Posted by Squiggles on February 5, 2007, at 10:26:03
In reply to Re: Ashton Rocks!, posted by valene on February 5, 2007, at 10:14:55
>
>
> > As for benzo.uk.org, the individuals on their forums could very well be scientologists among other things as their behaviour and general attitude is rabid and scary.
>
> I once read the site and even joined the forum a few years ago. Benzo.uk is owned by a guy who was "addicted to valium", said it ruined his life, and successfully sued his doctor and then set up the site.
>
> When you join the forum, you must agree and I quote "benzodiazepines were created in the depths of hell by the very devil himself, and distributed freely here on earth by his demons". Hope that answers some questions about the origins of benzo.uk or whatever. I refuse to ever go back there, as it scared the daylights out of me with the extreme notions that *any* and all psych. meds are horrendous and people got thrown off the forum for taking a vitamin (not kidding).
>
> Val
>
I was at that group some years ago. The person you are referring to is Ray Nimmo [?]. When I joined (I think it was 2001 or 2002) there was no such pledging to the belief that demonic forces of evil are responsible for benzos, as a condition of joining the group. Things must have changed considerably. Are you sure you are not referring to somebody who had suffered withdrawals and posted that as a hyperbole?Also, I don't want to mention names, but I know some professionals who also believe that benzos can be addictive and are not necessarily needed for long-term treatment, as anxiety can be transient or circumstantial. In some cases, they are due to medical conditions and in most, i would say it is a side-effects of antidepressants. This last one does require long-term adjunct treatment.
Squiggles
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