![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 4 to 28 of 29. Go back in thread:
Posted by chiron on January 17, 2007, at 23:12:42
In reply to RE: I am not going to post on ECT anymore, posted by bulldog2 on January 17, 2007, at 22:40:43
ECT brought me out of the depths of hell twice, once caused by Adderall and once caused by Geodon. I only have positive things to say about it. (And still managed to work full time and complete 2 classes with A grades during the whole circus.)
Posted by Karen44 on January 17, 2007, at 23:33:25
In reply to RE: I am not going to post on ECT anymore, posted by halcyondaze on January 17, 2007, at 22:02:29
> I support your decision as yours and your doctor's. One of my friends had ECT for severe, treatment-resistant major depression (12 unilateral treatments) and she has since been happy for the first time since I have ever known her. That was a year and a half ago. She has also finished her PhD within the past year. She credits the ECT with giving her back her cognition, which was so impaired due to the depression that she almost had to give up on her doctorate.
Thank you for your response. I have heard so many stories of problems that it is good to hear of one good one.
>
> There are risks and benefits to every medication. Having been severely addicted to Adderall and Xanax, I have some horror stories about those medications and find it disgusting that anyone would prescribe those drugs as carelessly as some on this board seem to use them but again, that's between them and their doctors. Not me.
>
> I wish you the best in your journey and hope you find this treatment helpful. If you are looking for a place to do ECT with high success rates, I work in psychiatry and can provide you with referrals in the NY area. I know several physicians who have prescribed ECT before and the hospitals they have used with much success.
Posted by Karen44 on January 17, 2007, at 23:42:11
In reply to RE: I am not going to post on ECT anymore, posted by Karen44 on January 17, 2007, at 21:55:22
Thanks to everyone who has posted on this thread for your support. I appreciate the support as maybe I started out at first with my threads wanting to hear pros and cons from others, but after a point all the negatives started to get to me (in the past couple of days). I appreciate your understanding that I may need to do ECT even if it scares the hell out of me and might cause a negative result. As was mentioned in this thread, the depression itself can leave one with the incapacity to do a job or school. This is starting to happen to me. I am truely sorry that there are those who post here who are unable to work and/or are on disability now. We are all different, and no one can judge another's pain and the depths of one's pain. Thanks again. I think I need a break now so that I don't totally go off the deep end.
Posted by halcyondaze on January 18, 2007, at 0:03:15
In reply to RE: I am not going to post on ECT anymore » bulldog2, posted by chiron on January 17, 2007, at 23:12:42
> ECT brought me out of the depths of hell twice, once caused by Adderall and once caused by Geodon. I only have positive things to say about it. (And still managed to work full time and complete 2 classes with A grades during the whole circus.)
Can you explain how the Adderall and Geodon preceded your depressive episodes? Was it when you were taken off? Were you slowly taken off or quickly?
(I feel the pain of the Adderall withdrawal: I was abusing up to 500 mg a day, stopped cold turkey, and had to be locked in a room for two weeks in isolation.)
Posted by blueberry1 on January 18, 2007, at 4:48:54
In reply to RE: I am not going to post on ECT anymore, posted by Karen44 on January 17, 2007, at 21:55:22
You ultimately know in your bones what is the right thing to do. I highly respect that.
One thing about ECT is that for people who do well on it, they don't hang out at psychobabble. So you only hear from the cases like mine that went bad.
You have done a lot of research into the specifics of exactly what kind of ECT you want, and I wish my doctors would have given me options to choose from. But the doctor in charge of ECT where I live only gives one kind of treatment to everybody, take it or leave it. That is bi-foreheadal. Which is supposed to be the newest greatest thing with minimal amnesia risk. Yeah right.
You have choices and you can feel confident in your planning and research. Keep in mind there are successful cases out there.
I will not hound you about ECt anymore. If it ever sounded like I was, I didn't mean to.
Posted by SLS on January 18, 2007, at 6:15:27
In reply to RE: I am not going to post on ECT anymore, posted by Karen44 on January 17, 2007, at 21:55:22
Hi Karen.
I was going to lobby to offer ECT success stories and scenarios by which some people mistake residual depressive symptomology for memory impairment, but it looks like you have thoroughly investigated the treatment. So, I won't do that. :-)
> I am well aware of the risk, more than anyone might realize.
I'm sure you are also aware of cases where people undergo close to 100 treatments without sufficient cognitive impairments for them to detect subjectively. These are the lucky ones.
I had a course of bilateral ECT 15 years ago. I did experience the commonly reported loss of detailed memory of events surrounding the period of treatments. However, I can't say that my memory or cognition is any more impaired for having had ECT. My depression (bipolar) produces significant memory and cognitive impairments. They existed before the treatments. They exist now. I could easily have allowed myself to blame ECT for them had I not had the full understanding of this.
I dated someone who went through an unsuccessful course of ECT and complained that it messed up her memory. I still don't see that it made any difference, but, of course, I'm not inside her head. However, when I asked her why she had to drop out of college for depression, one of her reasons was that her memory was so bad.
I hope you are one of the lucky ones. One of the things we don't really know is what the ratio of lucky/unlucky is. Perhaps you know better than the rest of us. In any event, GOOD LUCK!
By the way, what type of ECT have you decided upon should go in that direction?
- Scott
Posted by Karen44 on January 18, 2007, at 8:40:57
In reply to RE: I am not going to post on ECT anymore » Karen44, posted by blueberry1 on January 18, 2007, at 4:48:54
> You ultimately know in your bones what is the right thing to do. I highly respect that.
>
> One thing about ECT is that for people who do well on it, they don't hang out at psychobabble. So you only hear from the cases like mine that went bad.
>
> You have done a lot of research into the specifics of exactly what kind of ECT you want, and I wish my doctors would have given me options to choose from. But the doctor in charge of ECT where I live only gives one kind of treatment to everybody, take it or leave it. That is bi-foreheadal. Which is supposed to be the newest greatest thing with minimal amnesia risk. Yeah right.
>
> You have choices and you can feel confident in your planning and research. Keep in mind there are successful cases out there.
>
> I will not hound you about ECt anymore. If it ever sounded like I was, I didn't mean to.
>
Blueberry; I am not upset with you; I am aware of your experience and am angry about how your situation was handled. You have never hounded me about ECT. I am sorry if you thought so. I am not sure yet if either of these ECT docs will honor my request and if not then I will not do ECT. You may be right about Babble; I don't read most of what is posted. Ironically, ECT.org has folks who are very negative about ECT due to their experiences and people who are more positive. I have always appreciated your input.Karen44
Posted by Karen44 on January 18, 2007, at 8:58:33
In reply to RE: I am not going to post on ECT anymore » Karen44, posted by SLS on January 18, 2007, at 6:15:27
> Hi Karen.
>
> I was going to lobby to offer ECT success stories and scenarios by which some people mistake residual depressive symptomology for memory impairment, but it looks like you have thoroughly investigated the treatment. So, I won't do that. :-)
>
> > I am well aware of the risk, more than anyone might realize.
>
> I'm sure you are also aware of cases where people undergo close to 100 treatments without sufficient cognitive impairments for them to detect subjectively. These are the lucky ones.
>
> I had a course of bilateral ECT 15 years ago. I did experience the commonly reported loss of detailed memory of events surrounding the period of treatments. However, I can't say that my memory or cognition is any more impaired for having had ECT. My depression (bipolar) produces significant memory and cognitive impairments. They existed before the treatments. They exist now. I could easily have allowed myself to blame ECT for them had I not had the full understanding of this.
>
> I dated someone who went through an unsuccessful course of ECT and complained that it messed up her memory. I still don't see that it made any difference, but, of course, I'm not inside her head. However, when I asked her why she had to drop out of college for depression, one of her reasons was that her memory was so bad.
>
> I hope you are one of the lucky ones. One of the things we don't really know is what the ratio of lucky/unlucky is. Perhaps you know better than the rest of us. In any event, GOOD LUCK!
>
> By the way, what type of ECT have you decided upon should go in that direction?
>
>
> - Scott
>Scott
You are one as well who I respect and who I pay attention to when you post. While I am not bipolar, your experience with memory loss and other factors is exactly what I am going through now. My concern at this point is, given the nature of my work as a psychologist, my pdoc will tell me I have to stop working. Besides I don't want to do harm to anyone.
I know that if I get ECT, I don't think I will let them do more than 3 before reassessing and then 3 more before again reassessing. I also don't think I would agree to more than 8 or 10 even if it was not working.
If I do ECT, I want only right unilateral, low voltage, very narrow pulse waves for only a brief period, nothing more than 1.5 above the threshold level, and no more than one restimulation if they don't get the proper seizure after one try in the session. I think there are some other things that I can't remember. My stuff is at home.
Right now I am waiting to see if the Provigil will kick in. 100 mg for two days did not do the trick, and today I took 200 mg., and I don't notice anything except perhaps a very minimal amoung less depresed. That could be a placebo effect, though,as I woke up feeling profoundl depressed again and dragged myself out of bed to come to work. So, thanks. I was feeling very hurt by one person in particular on the ECT thread I started. You can read what I said there, but this is why I started this thread. I am not going to leave even if my sensitivities are heightened. I think most people on this board understand that this is how it is. A couple seem more inclined to attack and be hostile lately, and so I wrote Where is Dr. Bob when he is needed.
Karen44
Posted by SLS on January 18, 2007, at 9:46:29
In reply to RE: I am not going to post on ECT anymore » SLS, posted by Karen44 on January 18, 2007, at 8:58:33
> I know that if I get ECT, I don't think I will let them do more than 3 before reassessing and then 3 more before again reassessing. I also don't think I would agree to more than 8 or 10 even if it was not working.
Just to let you know, I experienced a marked improvement after my fifth unilateral treatment that lasted for most of that day. Your plan to evaluate after 6-8 treatments might have some validity to it.
I really wouldn't know what to recommend. There are some people who don't receive robust improvements unless they follow a course of 15 treatments. However, when reading of such cases, you never see an account of what were the results throughout the course, and whether or not small improvements manifest by the eighth treatment.
I'm sure you'll figure it all out as you go along.
Had I not received that early benefit, I don't know if I would have persisted for another 10 treatments, the last 8 of which were bilateral.
Anyone got a crystal ball?
- Scott
Posted by Phillipa on January 18, 2007, at 12:06:47
In reply to RE: I am not going to post on ECT anymore, posted by SLS on January 18, 2007, at 9:46:29
Karen you know I support you and seriously hope the meds you're on work for you and appointments go well with ECT docs and they respect your decisions for your course of tx should it come to that. Other than that. Be well today. Love Phillipa
Posted by linkadge on January 18, 2007, at 13:03:29
In reply to RE: I am not going to post on ECT anymore, posted by SLS on January 18, 2007, at 9:46:29
------
First my disclaimer: if the following doesn't apply to you then disregard it.
------Its your brain and ultimately you need to make the decision.
One thing I would just like to comment is that sometimes people get into this mindset, that there is this linear treatment protocol whereby you fail one treamtment, and necessitates the next, harsher treatment.
There is also a logical fallacy that the subsequent, harsher treatment must be more effective than the less harsh treatment (because of the fact that it is harsher)
"You know, my depresson is such and such bad, therefore it needs ECT".
Another thing too, is that this whole board is so "bipolar". Sombody posts a study one day about the dangers of ECT, and everybody regrets having it, and shares their negative experiences. The next day, sombody talks about "so and so" who did great on ECT, and all of a sudden people are lining up outside the shock room. Its almost like we have no memory at all.
It is as if we only hear what we want to hear, and we disregard the rest.
You don't want ECT as much as you want to believe there is something strong enough to get you well.
Telling somebody you have had ECT is also a way of getting the point across of how bad you feel. It used to be that one could just take an antiepressant and people would back off, and understand what you mean. Now, sombody has to dammge their brain just to get the point across.
Its like cutting in a way. Even if it doesn't work, one can still show those scars so that people will understand.
Don't use ECT as a badge.
Now don't get me wrong, I believe there is always something strong enough to get a person well, but I just don't think that we should put ECT on this treatment pedisatal.
Cause in some peoples minds, ECT will stay on a pedistal untill the day that it gets pulled off the market.
Its like my doctor saying, "do you want to try this new SSRI? Some studies show it is more effective than other treamtments, but other studies show it is no better. It is pretty much the exact same thing as every other SSRI, although it carries the risk of brain dammage and possable long term memory loss. In addition, it will only work for 6 months, and then you're screwed.
The possable side effects from ECT are a many times worse than that of a medication, while the possble benifit is possably only marginally better, (and probably not statiscally any better if one dare to think 6 months down the road.)Its like the lottery. Sure you will get those people who hit the jackpot, and they trigger the gambling instict in a lot of susceptable people, but the bottom line is, what do the statistics say, and are you ready to gamble with your brain.
Remember, the so-called big guns, by their very definition, can blow big holes.
Linkadge
Posted by SLS on January 18, 2007, at 17:47:24
In reply to RE: I am not going to post on ECT anymore, posted by linkadge on January 18, 2007, at 13:03:29
Hi Linkadge.
> ------
> First my disclaimer: if the following doesn't apply to you then disregard it.
> ------It must have been a difficult decision for you to make as to whether or not to enter this thread describing your passionate negative opinions of ECT. Afterall, I think the person who started it was pretty specific that she wanted to avoid such posts and that she felt she was sufficiently educated regarding the risks of this treatment. Still, if I were as thoroughly convinced of the dangers of a particular treatment as you are of ECT, I know I would be tempted to make pleas regardless of the wishes of the person. It is a difficult line to walk.
> Its your brain and ultimately you need to make the decision.
I think we all understand this right and the personal responsibility that goes along with it. I believe Karen has already demonstrated the maturity as an adult to make such decisions.
> One thing I would just like to comment is that sometimes people get into this mindset, that there is this linear treatment protocol whereby you fail one treamtment, and necessitates the next, harsher treatment.
> There is also a logical fallacy that the subsequent, harsher treatment must be more effective than the less harsh treatment (because of the fact that it is harsher)
You make a good point here.
> Another thing too, is that this whole board is so "bipolar". Sombody posts a study one day about the dangers of ECT, and everybody regrets having it, and shares their negative experiences. The next day, sombody talks about "so and so" who did great on ECT, and all of a sudden people are lining up outside the shock room. Its almost like we have no memory at all.Bandwagons. Yes, I know. I guess one could argue that there is a social responsiblity that goes along with weilding so much influence on a board such as this one.
> It is as if we only hear what we want to hear, and we disregard the rest.
It can be frustrating when people don't come over to our side.
> You don't want ECT as much as you want to believe there is something strong enough to get you well.
I may be presumptuous, or just a pain in the posterior, but I don't think people like to be told what they want and what they don't want, or what they want to believe. It is presumptuous, in my way of looking at things, to presume to know the mind of another. That being said, it is only logical that anyone should want a treatment free of discomfort and side effects that were more effective than what they had tried previously.
> Telling somebody you have had ECT is also a way of getting the point across of how bad you feel.
Hmm. I must say that I never used my describing of my experience with ECT that way. If anything, it represented treatment resistance, not illness severity. But that's just me.
> It used to be that one could just take an antiepressant and people would back off, and understand what you mean. Now, sombody has to dammge their brain just to get the point across.
Wow. Your saying this leaves me feeling very uncomfortable. I think most of us are adults here with adult minds, despite our illnesses. It sounds like you are describing the mind of a disturbed child.
> Its like cutting in a way. Even if it doesn't work, one can still show those scars so that people will understand.
I don't know, Link. It doesn't sound like you understand what cutting is all about. It always works.
> Don't use ECT as a badge.
Children again?
> Now don't get me wrong, I believe there is always something strong enough to get a person well,
Aha! An admission of treatability! Optimism? Feels good.
Don't look now, but now you are equating "strong" with "effective". Don't worry. It's a common mistake.
> but I just don't think that we should put ECT on this treatment pedisatal.
I agree. There is so much to look at, though.
> Cause in some peoples minds, ECT will stay on a pedistal untill the day that it gets pulled off the market.
Perhaps it doesn't belong on a pedestal, but I am not clear on where it should be placed. There are some pretty compelling stories out there that argue for having it remain available.
I respect your passions here.I also respect the intelligence and the sentiments of the initiator of this thread.
Specifically, her wishes were, "I don't want people to try to talk me out of ECT if that is what I ultimately decide to do"
It's a difficult line to walk, Linkadge. There is no question that your intents are caring and honorable.
- Scott
Posted by linkadge on January 18, 2007, at 19:09:02
In reply to RE: I am not going to post on ECT anymore » linkadge, posted by SLS on January 18, 2007, at 17:47:24
>Afterall, I think the person who started it was >pretty specific that she wanted to avoid such >posts and that she felt she was sufficiently >educated regarding the risks of this treatment.
The fact that there was another post made on the issue is testament to the poster's uncertainty.
Nevertheless, it is not my goal to infringe one anyones rights.Although, no more posts = no more responces.
>I believe Karen has already demonstrated the >maturity as an adult to make such decisions.
It just scares me when somebody says I am going to do something and I am going to close the door to all other input.
>I don't think people like to be told what they >want and what they don't want, or what they want >to believe.
Nobody does.
>It is presumptuous, in my way of looking at >things, to presume to know the mind of another.
People make inferences. Sometimes wrong, sometimes right.
For instance, the following is an inferance:
The people who probably do best on ECT are the ones who hadn't previously got themselves caught-up in internet discusions about ECT induced glutamatergic neurotoxicity, cholinergic dammage, tempoal lobe neuronal loss and gliosis, fibrosis, mitochondrial dysfunction, EEG abnormalities, heat shock protein induction, oxidative stress, altered gene expression, GFAP induction, animal models of permamant cognitive deficit, shadow cells and neuronophagia, areas of cortial devistation, Astrocytic proliferation, necrosis in cortex hippocampus and medulla, Central chromatolysis, induction of ghost cells, Chromatolysis, cell shrinkage, glial nodules beneath the ependyma of the third ventricle, Schemic and pyknotic ganglion cells, Pigmentation and fatty degeneration, Decrease in ganglion cells in frontal lobes, lipoid pigment in globus pallidus and medical nucleus of thalamus, gliosis around ventricles and in marginal areas of brain stem, perivascular gliosis in white matter.
But wait, the good news is that you likely won't remember all of that after the procedure is over!!!
>It
>sounds like you are describing the mind of a >disturbed child.Are you saing that only disturbed children cut? Of course one could argue it is childish. I am not trying to liken having ECT to cutting, but it is a way to kind of injure oneself to order to attain both psychological and psychosocial responces to injury.
>I don't know, Link. It doesn't sound like you >understand what cutting is all about. It always >works.
????
>Aha! An admission of treatability! Optimism? >Feels good.
Thats what I mean. Although, placebos work best when you are ignorant of their potential dangers.
When did I ever say that depression was not treatable? Just because I don't put much faith in modern psychiatry doesn't mean I don't believe it is treatable.>Don't look now, but now you are >equating "strong" with "effective". Don't worry. >It's a common mistake.
I don't understand what you are saying. I said there exists a treatment which is strong enough (or effective enough) to get a person well.
(Note: Above I was saying that *harshness* was not equatable to effectivness.) In this context strong does not mean harsh. Harsh implies side effects wherase strong doesn't necessarily.>Perhaps it doesn't belong on a pedestal, but I >am not clear on where it should be placed. There >are some pretty compelling stories out there >that argue for having it remain available.
Well I believe that it will be done away with in my lifetime. We are in an age of the presuit of hard facts. Crackdowns on numbrfudging. 10 years ago one might believe that only 13% of citalopram users experienced sexual dysfunction. Hopefully in the future those kinds of lies will not be tollerated.
>Specifically, her wishes were, "I don't want >people to try to talk me out of ECT if that is >what I ultimately decide to do"
No more posts = no more responces.
Linkadge
Posted by Karen44 on January 18, 2007, at 19:27:28
In reply to RE: I am not going to post on ECT anymore, posted by linkadge on January 18, 2007, at 19:09:02
Please; it's okay if people express their views. I just don't like being attacked which was happening on the thread I started about Is ECT all that is left. I and another person were attacked by a couple of people. When I responded to one of the attacks, then Clearskies went after me too. This is becoming so upsetting to just come to this board anymore. I may not always make sense and be rational and it is because I am so depressed. I don't feel offended or attacked by anything said by anyone on this thread.
I just got an email from my pdoc who I see tomorrow. I had emailed him to tell him I had gotten an appt. to talk to a second ECT doc who he knows. He said the guy is flexible but that I should also listen to his rationale if he doesn't agree with what I propose. Sounded to me like he already knows he won't, and maybe I am jumping the gun. I shot him back an email saying what he said really pissed me off and if he knows something then tell me so I don't waste my time talking to the guy as there are some parameters I won't budge on. I will just stay depressed and muddle through some how--maybe just retire early or maybe decide on some other course.
I am feeling extremely vulnerable and sensitive right now and hope the two from the other thread don't come to this thread and start attacking me here too. What they said to me and someone else was extremely hurtful. It is not because of anyone on this thread that I think I should not come back to even look at Babble, but I don't think I can handle another attack by the two people on the other thread. It's okay Scott what linkadge said. He didn't attack me.
Karen44
Posted by danr49 on January 18, 2007, at 19:43:56
In reply to RE: I am not offended by comments on this thread, posted by Karen44 on January 18, 2007, at 19:27:28
I think readers can go through the "other thread" themselves from beginning to end and see what really happened.
Posted by Phillipa on January 18, 2007, at 19:56:58
In reply to RE: I am not offended by comments on this thread, posted by Karen44 on January 18, 2007, at 19:27:28
Karen this is a very hard time for you right now. How bout some compassionate responses for support. I wouldn't want to deal with this tomorrow. Lets try and show what this board is all about support and compassion. We all have off days some more than others. Love Phillipa (((((Karen)))))))
Posted by Karen44 on January 18, 2007, at 20:25:18
In reply to RE: I am not offended by comments on this thread, posted by danr49 on January 18, 2007, at 19:43:56
> I think readers can go through the "other thread" themselves from beginning to end and see what really happened.
Dan
I would really appreciate it if you would leave me alone. Why do you want to go after me? What did I ever do to you? This thread is a separate thread.
Karen
Posted by ryanz on January 18, 2007, at 20:54:19
In reply to RE: Dr. Bob, Clearskies - Please help, posted by Karen44 on January 18, 2007, at 20:25:18
>
> Dan
>
> I would really appreciate it if you would leave >me alone. Why do you want to go after me? What >did I ever do to you?>This thread is a separate thread.
You're right, this is a whole separate thread you started where you continue making personal remarks about me and a another poster and complaining instead of just letting the matter drop like you were asked to do by the moderator. You posted these comments on purpose to aggravate us, and then when we feel offended and finally respond, you start calling for the moderator. You didn't see "us" starting up a separate thread and continuing to make personal remarks and complaints. Stop playing games.
Posted by Phillipa on January 18, 2007, at 21:29:49
In reply to RE: Dr. Bob, Clearskies - Please help, posted by ryanz on January 18, 2007, at 20:54:19
Above from Phillipa was support for Karen and no one else. Thank-you a misunderstanding Karen it was for you. Love Phillipa
Posted by Dr. Bob on January 18, 2007, at 21:52:36
In reply to RE: Dr. Bob, Clearskies - Please help, posted by ryanz on January 18, 2007, at 20:54:19
> I and another person were attacked by a couple of people. When I responded to one of the attacks, then Clearskies went after me too.
>
> Karen44> you continue making personal remarks about me and a another poster and complaining ... You posted these comments on purpose to aggravate us ... Stop playing games.
>
> ryanzPlease don't jump to conclusions about others or post anything that could lead them to feel accused or put down.
But please don't take this personally, either, this doesn't mean I don't like you or think you're bad people. And I don't want anything bad to happen to you. In a crisis, please also get help in person. You may also wish to check out a listing compiled by a poster of helpful web pages on coping with crisis at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/psycho-babble-tips/links/Coping_with_crisis_001012507973
If you or others have questions about this or about posting policies in general, or are interested in alternative ways of expressing yourself, please first see the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#enforceFollow-ups regarding these issues should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration. They, as well as replies to the above posts, should of course themselves be civil.
Thanks,
Bob
Posted by SLS on January 18, 2007, at 23:03:22
In reply to RE: I am not going to post on ECT anymore, posted by linkadge on January 18, 2007, at 19:09:02
> Although, no more posts = no more responces.
I know. Like I said, I understand your motivations.
> The people who probably do best on ECT are the ones who hadn't previously got themselves caught-up in internet discusions about ECT induced glutamatergic neurotoxicity, cholinergic dammage, tempoal lobe neuronal loss and gliosis, fibrosis, mitochondrial dysfunction, EEG abnormalities, heat shock protein induction, oxidative stress, altered gene expression, GFAP induction, animal models of permamant cognitive deficit, shadow cells and neuronophagia, areas of cortial devistation, Astrocytic proliferation, necrosis in cortex hippocampus and medulla, Central chromatolysis, induction of ghost cells, Chromatolysis, cell shrinkage, glial nodules beneath the ependyma of the third ventricle, Schemic and pyknotic ganglion cells, Pigmentation and fatty degeneration, Decrease in ganglion cells in frontal lobes, lipoid pigment in globus pallidus and medical nucleus of thalamus, gliosis around ventricles and in marginal areas of brain stem, perivascular gliosis in white matter.
> But wait, the good news is that you likely won't remember all of that after the procedure is over!!!I doubt I would remember all of that before or after...
I don't know if ECT will be withdrawn in your lifetime. I hope it is. I hope there will come to fruition an assortment of new treatments that will obviate the need for it.
Is there a need for it? There is certainly a need for treatments in addition to the drugs we currently have available. Like it or not, ECT is the most efficacious treatment for some people. Is it safe? I don't know. It certainly seems to be for some people. That is a most impressive list you contributed. I'm afraid I don't have the background to put it into context. I think we still need more information to be better able to adjust our risk/benefit analysis of ECT.
I am not so much promoting the use of ECT, as I am not yet ready to take it away from anyone as a treatment.
- Scott
Posted by UgottaHaveHope on January 18, 2007, at 23:18:40
In reply to RE: I am not going to post on ECT anymore » linkadge, posted by SLS on January 18, 2007, at 23:03:22
I am all for everybody expressing any opinion, along as they do it in a dignified manner. Hopefully, no one will take any of the posts personal, even if they appear to be personal in nature. Reminder, it's just someone's opinion, nothing else.
Posted by SLS on January 19, 2007, at 0:26:23
In reply to RE: I am not going to post on ECT anymore, posted by Karen44 on January 17, 2007, at 21:55:22
> Please everyone do not try anymore to convince me of the ills of ECT. I am well aware of the risk, more than anyone might realize.
I think that's what most of us are hoping for.
As you suggest, keeping all of your options open as you go along might help you come to making decisions that are a better fit for your unique situation. Perhaps it is too early to make a commitment.
I'm sorry that you got blocked. I think it would have been productive for everyone to continue the thread in a way that you could get your needs met. That you continue to remain receptive to, and not offended by, the varying opinions offered is, I think, healthy.
Enjoy your week off.
I hope you come back.
If you don't, good luck to you in your pursuit of mental health.
- Scott
Posted by SLS on January 19, 2007, at 6:26:05
In reply to RE: I am not going to post on ECT anymore, posted by linkadge on January 18, 2007, at 19:09:02
> When did I ever say that depression was not treatable? Just because I don't put much faith in modern psychiatry doesn't mean I don't believe it is treatable
While I have you here, and since you might think depression is a treatable illness, what are the first five treatments you would choose to treat a de novo case?
- Scott
Posted by MIke Lynch on January 19, 2007, at 7:07:04
In reply to RE: I am not going to post on ECT anymore » linkadge, posted by SLS on January 19, 2007, at 6:26:05
Why would you post about not posting about ect. If you didn't want feedback then you would't POST AT ALL about ect, now you've brought even more attention to yourself - it makes no sense.
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