![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 15 to 39 of 39. Go back in thread:
Posted by Phillipa on November 27, 2006, at 23:18:08
In reply to Re: Difference between Ativan and Valium? » ace, posted by Quintal on November 27, 2006, at 22:56:24
Oldest users of benzos on this site I bet. My experience was when stress was low I naturally lowered the dose by myself. In my twenties yes it valium was handed out like candy so why did I cut down on my own? And been on them all. Xanax was so easy to stop just switched. And when I moved to NC before my thyroid I was on .l25 a day of xanax. The pdoc thought it was a joke and a placebo. Anyway I'm on the valium now cause of the thyroid and my doc said to. I can't take ad's the side effects are too bad and I once took l0mg of paxil thought I would die when I stopped it. Had to start again and nibble a bit off for weeks before I could stop it. So in my experience it's easier to wean off a benzo. Love Phillipa ps plus they have no lawsuits on them or black box warnings.
Posted by Quintal on November 27, 2006, at 23:28:05
In reply to Re: Difference between Ativan and Valium? » Quintal, posted by ace on November 27, 2006, at 21:09:43
> >Also addiction (within the context of dependence) denotes that the user needs higher and higher doses to sustain efficacy
>
> Is that not tolerance?>See above.
--------------------------------------------------
The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language: Fourth Edition. 2000.
TOLERANCE
SYLLABICATION: tol·er·ance
PRONUNCIATION: tlr-ns
NOUN: The capacity to absorb a drug continuously or in large doses without adverse effect; diminution in the response to a drug after prolonged use. <Hence requiring a progressive *increase* in dose.>--------------------------------------------------
>> >The term 'dependence denotes compulsive or chronic need
>
> Isn't that addiction?>Not by the medical dictionary I have. But, there always seems to be some semantic confusion with these two terms.
--------------------------------------------------The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language: Fourth Edition. 2000.
ADDICTION
SYLLABICATION: ad·dic·tion
PRONUNCIATION: -dkshn
NOUN: 1a. Compulsive physiological and psychological need for a habit-forming substance: a drug used in the treatment of heroin addiction. b. An instance of this: a person with multiple chemical addictions. 2a. The condition of being habitually or compulsively occupied with or or involved in something.
--------------------------------------------------
Yes, it seems there is a semantic overlap between addiction and dependence putting it loosely, in the sense that dependence is a chronic need for the substance and addiction is the compulsive desire. It's hard to tease out addiction from tolerance, since there is often a craving for a stronger 'hit', but that may not reflect changes in physical tolerance to the drug, rather a mental desire for a stronger effect. Tolerance being changes in the amount needed to produce the same effect.>But I do think benzo's are wonderful agents and should be issued more. Maybe one day I will see certain phenomena with regards to benzo's that steers my mind, but for the moment, I am definitely a strong advocate of the drugs.
Agreed!!!
Q
Posted by Quintal on November 27, 2006, at 23:46:17
In reply to Re: Difference between Ativan and Valium?, posted by Phillipa on November 27, 2006, at 23:18:08
Hi Phillipa,
>My experience was when stress was low I naturally lowered the dose by myself.
When stress was high, did your benzo dose ever rise to compensate?
>In my twenties yes it valium was handed out like candy so why did I cut down on my own?
I did this myself while on clonazepam for a short while. I even came off them completely and voluntarily for a little while, but I still went on to abuse them later when I felt the urge. I guess it depends on your state of mind at the time?
Q
Posted by yxibow on November 28, 2006, at 3:06:53
In reply to Re: Difference between Ativan and Valium? » ace, posted by Quintal on November 27, 2006, at 23:28:05
> > >Also addiction (within the context of dependence) denotes that the user needs higher and higher doses to sustain efficacy
> >
> > Is that not tolerance?
>
> >See above.
> --------------------------------------------------
> The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language: Fourth Edition. 2000.
>
> TOLERANCE
>
> SYLLABICATION: tol·er·ance
> PRONUNCIATION: tlr-ns
> NOUN: The capacity to absorb a drug continuously or in large doses without adverse effect; diminution in the response to a drug after prolonged use. <Hence requiring a progressive *increase* in dose.>
>
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> >> >The term 'dependence denotes compulsive or chronic need
> >
> > Isn't that addiction?
>
> >Not by the medical dictionary I have. But, there always seems to be some semantic confusion with these two terms.
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language: Fourth Edition. 2000.
>
> ADDICTION
>
> SYLLABICATION: ad·dic·tion
> PRONUNCIATION: -dkshn
> NOUN: 1a. Compulsive physiological and psychological need for a habit-forming substance: a drug used in the treatment of heroin addiction. b. An instance of this: a person with multiple chemical addictions. 2a. The condition of being habitually or compulsively occupied with or or involved in something.
> --------------------------------------------------
> Yes, it seems there is a semantic overlap between addiction and dependence putting it loosely, in the sense that dependence is a chronic need for the substance and addiction is the compulsive desire. It's hard to tease out addiction from tolerance, since there is often a craving for a stronger 'hit', but that may not reflect changes in physical tolerance to the drug, rather a mental desire for a stronger effect. Tolerance being changes in the amount needed to produce the same effect.
>
> >But I do think benzo's are wonderful agents and should be issued more. Maybe one day I will see certain phenomena with regards to benzo's that steers my mind, but for the moment, I am definitely a strong advocate of the drugs.
>
> Agreed!!!
>
> Q
>
This has been discussed ad nauseum, to paraphrase a Ratherism, the semantics are "a ding dong battle back and forth". And I completely agree with the above -- there are definite distinctions between addiction, tolerance, and habituation, all three of which can occur at the same time.
Addiction, in its primary sense is the non-medical use of medical (or street obtained) substances for non prescribed purposes -- recreation gone too far, to be crude.
I have no issue one way or the other with personal recreational use of drugs -- I think the law enforcement community has better things to do, at least with "soft" substances like marijuana. If it were legalized like alcohol (not too strangely the roaring 20s were another period of pot use and the movie Grass features clips from anti-pot movies made by the government that are rather hilarious in todays context.)
Granted there are non hilarious mexican mafias behind some marijuana usage but of course that is because of enforcement (mind you I've never tried but have no particular mindset on the substance), it equally flows from Canada and there is a relative lack of machinegun use in the northwest... anyhow I'm straying from the point -- if it were made like alcohol, 21 (or 18 or whatever) this would all go away.Now I'm not talking the same thing about crack and heroin and meth, etc... one can get the point.
Getting back to addiction -- it is a medical phenomenon that we are finding is primarily a biochemical based issue -- and possibly quite genetic as well. So addiction would be the forging of prescriptions, and as I said since it can occur at the same time as habituation and tolerance, the hiding of just how much one is actually taking of a substance from a doctor or doctor shopping until it reaches a point that it can't be hidden.
Tolerance and habituation are close synonyms -- habituation occurs when tolerance to a substance happens. This is why long half life benzodiazepines are much safer than short half life ones for long term therapy. Ativan requires twice daily dosing for a number of people and is generally more of a PRN (as needed) medication usually, as is Xanax.Valium has gotten an old 1960s Valley of the Dolls, Mother's Little Helper reputation, when in fact its 24+ hour half life means that adjustment of dosages are smoother and less harsh on the patient because there is a standing blood level at a high steady state. Medications that require 2, 3, and 4x dosing can have interdosal withdrawals.
Either Valium or Klonopin (sometimes 2x daily for Klonopin) are good long term benzodiazepines -- some people here have claimed Klonopin can cause depression, although this is a possibility of most benzodiazepines in those who already suffer from depression in the first place and they are CNS depressants themselves.
There have been people on benzodiazepines since they came out in the early 1960s. This is not to say they're candy, but proper dosing with observation for tolerance is probably among the safest psychiatric drug regimes; they also have a high LD50 (morbidity) which I am not going to note for obvious reasons. This also probably varies for those who are used to a higher level of benzodiazepines in the first place or are fast metabolizers.So to sum it up I would actually say that Valium is a better choice for long term than Ativan, but I am not your doctor and I cannot advise that medically. It is just a personal opinion.
-- tidings
Jay
Posted by Quintal on November 28, 2006, at 9:55:29
In reply to Re: Difference between Ativan and Valium? » Quintal, posted by yxibow on November 28, 2006, at 3:06:53
>Granted there are non hilarious mexican mafias behind some marijuana usage but of course that is because of enforcement (mind you I've never tried but have no particular mindset on the substance), it equally flows from Canada and there is a relative lack of machinegun use in the northwest...
Ironic that violence is associated with Marijuana considering its typical pacifying effect.
>if it were made like alcohol, 21 (or 18 or whatever) this would all go away.
I agree on the whole, but I suspect there would still be a black market for Marijuana as there is for contraband cigarettes and cheap Vodka and other spirits where I live. The effect of regular long term Marijuana use on the ability to drive operate machinery safely is also a concern.
>Addiction, in its primary sense is the non-medical use of medical (or street obtained) substances for non prescribed purposes -- recreation gone too far, to be crude.
Well I became addicted to benzos in a medical context and did not set out to abuse them however dubious the original prescription may seem. The irony is I knew all about these problems before I started but the benzos made me feel so good that I didn't care about the consequences. I was seeking instant gratification, became quite aggressive and domineering etc. A total personality change. I don't feel much like abusing drugs in my (now) sober state. I have access to some addictive substances but have no inclination to use them.
>There have been people on benzodiazepines since they came out in the early 1960s. This is not to say they're candy, but proper dosing with observation for tolerance is probably among the safest psychiatric drug regimes
My grandmother was one of those people I believe, although she did manage to withdraw from Valium. She still took temazepam at night until she died and I'm grateful she had that relief.
Q
Posted by laima on November 28, 2006, at 13:07:34
In reply to Re: Difference between Ativan and Valium? » laima, posted by ace on November 27, 2006, at 20:26:53
My experience fits your definitions of addiction unfortunately- so am I to conclude I am an unusually lame drug addict just plain utterly lacking in self control? Fully deserve what I brought upon my weak self?? I'm actually not into street drugs. Doctors, "experts", raised my dose over approximately 5 years in response to increasing tolerance, then decided to stop the escalation cycle, and I can't really use benzodiazapines again on any regular basis-at least not for a long while. ( "We don't normally prescribe much more than that, and it's time to bring this cycle to an end, the drugs are obviously not helping this way". ) I can't argue with that. It's a shame. What initially was way too much- a knock out- has zero effect on me now. ("Tolerance? Sure it's possible, you've been on it for a long time. It's probably not doing you any good any more.") I'd practically crave clonopin- not for any high or recreation, but to stave off withdrawal. Dream about benzodiazapines, wonder if I might not have an emergency stash somewhere, if there might not be overlooked bits on the floor from splitting them. Hoped the pharmacy wouldn't run out! No one ever asked, "Any history of addiction in your family?", or anything like that. So whose "fault" is it really? Everybody? Perhaps nobody? Not clear. And I wonder who exactly funded that study you quote for your position. I think it's useful to look at studies skeptically, and wonder what were their interests? Sure they're useful drugs- but not without risks. Perhaps best approached cautiously on a case by case basis. I think there no easy answer from them or about them. Fortunately, curiously, I've never experienced withdrawal symptoms of any kind from any stimulants or antidepressants. No cravings, either. Go figure, body chemistry differences.
> > >Also addiction (within the context of dependence) denotes that the user needs higher and higher doses to sustain efficay.
> >
> > Actually, this IS possible with benzos used long-term.
> > And a lot of people just go up on their dosage indefinately.
>
> I personally have never seen any evidence of this - only when Benzo's are used as street drugs. I have read a lot of clinical and anecdotal literature and the use of higher doses
> does not correlate with responsible medical usage.
>
>
Posted by Phillipa on November 28, 2006, at 17:49:56
In reply to Re: Difference between Ativan and Valium? » Phillipa, posted by Quintal on November 27, 2006, at 23:46:17
I've never raised the dose on my own. Only pdocs have over the last year. Many stresses. And I forgot there was a time when I was benzo free on my own. Love Phillipa
Posted by Quintal on November 28, 2006, at 18:51:06
In reply to Re: Difference between Ativan and Valium? » Quintal, posted by Phillipa on November 28, 2006, at 17:49:56
It seems that benzos are addictive mostly to people who are unstable or have personality disorders then as liama suggests?
When I think more carefully about this I find I was most likely to abuse benzos and other drugs when I was hypomanic. It was that hedonistic euphoria that says "What the hell, you only live once" and the loss of insight that I think lead to the benzo abuse and from benzos on to other drugs. Curiously I usually stop taking all drugs when I'm depressed - including antidepressants even though it is at that time I would benefit from them the most.
Has anyone else with bipolar tendencies found this pattern to substance use - alcohol etc?
As liama says, the pdocs do not ask if we have a history of addiction and of course I didn't have a history of substance misuse at that time so there was no way of knowing. This is my point about benzos - they're much the same as other addictive drugs. There are people who can take opiates for many years and withdraw successfully without major problems, but this does not mean they are not addictive.
Q
Posted by Quintal on November 28, 2006, at 18:54:54
In reply to Re: Difference between Ativan and Valium? » Phillipa, posted by Quintal on November 28, 2006, at 18:51:06
Posted by ace on November 28, 2006, at 20:14:04
In reply to Re: Difference between Ativan and Valium? » ace, posted by Quintal on November 27, 2006, at 23:28:05
> > >Also addiction (within the context of dependence) denotes that the user needs higher and higher doses to sustain efficacy
> >
> > Is that not tolerance?
>
> >See above.
> --------------------------------------------------
> The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language: Fourth Edition. 2000.
>
> TOLERANCE
>
> SYLLABICATION: tol·er·ance
> PRONUNCIATION: tlr-ns
> NOUN: The capacity to absorb a drug continuously or in large doses without adverse effect; diminution in the response to a drug after prolonged use. <Hence requiring a progressive *increase* in dose.>
>
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> >> >The term 'dependence denotes compulsive or chronic need
> >
> > Isn't that addiction?
>
> >Not by the medical dictionary I have. But, there always seems to be some semantic confusion with these two terms.
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language: Fourth Edition. 2000.
>
> ADDICTION
>
> SYLLABICATION: ad·dic·tion
> PRONUNCIATION: -dkshn
> NOUN: 1a. Compulsive physiological and psychological need for a habit-forming substance: a drug used in the treatment of heroin addiction. b. An instance of this: a person with multiple chemical addictions. 2a. The condition of being habitually or compulsively occupied with or or involved in something.
> --------------------------------------------------
> Yes, it seems there is a semantic overlap between addiction and dependence putting it loosely, in the sense that dependence is a chronic need for the substance and addiction is the compulsive desire. It's hard to tease out addiction from tolerance, since there is often a craving for a stronger 'hit', but that may not reflect changes in physical tolerance to the drug, rather a mental desire for a stronger effect. Tolerance being changes in the amount needed to produce the same effect.
>
> >But I do think benzo's are wonderful agents and should be issued more. Maybe one day I will see certain phenomena with regards to benzo's that steers my mind, but for the moment, I am definitely a strong advocate of the drugs.
>
> Agreed!!!
>
> Q
>I can get the dictionary details I got my defintions from...but I think, to be honest, your citation is more closer to the truth than mine!
Posted by laima on November 28, 2006, at 20:46:33
In reply to Re: Difference between Ativan and Valium? » Phillipa, posted by Quintal on November 28, 2006, at 18:51:06
I'm not bipolar and I didn't know there would be a problem. Just wanted to avoid withdrawal symptoms. Never ever was diagnosed with any personality problem either. Didn't move on to "other drugs", l haven't had such issues on such a scale with other drugs. One would think stimulants, for example, would be very abuseable and problematic-not an issue here. Pot was always around me some years ago- I walked right away from it, no issue, no problem. Interesting. People in my family have had alcohol problems for several generations though. And of course, lots of people use alcohol without any issues- but probably no one will dispute it's a highly abusable, addictive substance. Insiduous, even. But somehow, I am able to take "drinking vacations" without too much effort once I am determined. That fortunately always feels more like a "psychological" craving rather than an "avoid unpleasantness" desperation. Sort of how giving up excessive cookie-eating (or whatever) doesn't lead to "unpleasantness" in any meaningful, physicological way, though it can be a drag. No breathing trouble, no blood pressure instability spells...no panic about "where's the drug!" Of course now I am wary not to develope an alcohol problem! And I've had opiate-like painkillers (ie, vicodine) after dental surgery, and that wasn't ever any issue either. Neither were were sleeping pills like ambien: yes I acted weird- because they didn't make me/induce me to go to sleep- but I never craved them or missed them after their brief trials. (Maybe "brief trial" is the key?) As for "unstable", I'd say I was very highly functional until about six months ago, when the so called max dose of clonopin konked out, and subsequently the hold-it-right-there, and then later the withdrawal efforts and rebound anxiety began. (Start and stop, over and over--I don't think a withdrawal determination would have to last any six months despite my own problems.) I don't get it why benzodiazapines have been so different. Now of course, there is anxiety, and little to do about it responsably other than yoga and "lifestyle changes". Unfortunately, at least for now, still way far more anxiety than before I ever heard of the easy "cure", or whatever it was supposed to be. Might be best to check one's genetics or family history? Maybe? Or just take breaks once in awhile to take assessment? Or maybe not always relevant? They definately are VERY effective drugs; that's a blessing and curse all at once. Such a shame that for some people, at least, there's that little "develope tolerance" problem.
> It seems that benzos are addictive mostly to people who are unstable or have personality disorders then as liama suggests?
>
> When I think more carefully about this I find I was most likely to abuse benzos and other drugs when I was hypomanic. It was that hedonistic euphoria that says "What the hell, you only live once" and the loss of insight that I think lead to the benzo abuse and from benzos on to other drugs. Curiously I usually stop taking all drugs when I'm depressed - including antidepressants even though it is at that time I would benefit from them the most.
>
> Has anyone else with bipolar tendencies found this pattern to substance use - alcohol etc?
>
> As liama says, the pdocs do not ask if we have a history of addiction and of course I didn't have a history of substance misuse at that time so there was no way of knowing. This is my point about benzos - they're much the same as other addictive drugs. There are people who can take opiates for many years and withdraw successfully without major problems, but this does not mean they are not addictive.
>
> Q
Posted by Quintal on November 28, 2006, at 21:26:36
In reply to Re: Difference between Ativan and Valium? » Quintal, posted by laima on November 28, 2006, at 20:46:33
So were you actively abusing benzos laima or had you simply developed tolerance to prescribed doses?
I have access to amphetamine and pot too but I don't feel like using them. I guess that's because they don't make me feel much better in the way benzos and opiates do, in fact they often made me feel much worse. I think you may be right about alcohol. It is a worry for me also as I reiscovered it last week. I found drink quite repulsive during benzo withdrawal but it feels different now. It's still not as good to me as benzos were though.
>Neither were were sleeping pills like ambien: yes I acted weird- because they didn't make me/induce me to go to sleep
Did you ever hallucinate on Ambien when you were in that 'hypnagogic' state as it's called? I saw elves!
Q
Posted by laima on November 28, 2006, at 22:09:14
In reply to Re: Difference between Ativan and Valium? » laima, posted by Quintal on November 28, 2006, at 21:26:36
"Abusing" or not is a matter of perspective- I had a few panic episodes where I took more, but the doctors found THAT reasonable. Eventually, day to day, the prescribed amounts did zero, even as they were steadily raised, and I'd take more more often in order to achieve the same result of "no excessive anxiety" and therefore run out early. It was a pretty mutual decision that there was a problem, and the drug was the problem for me. I don't think it's a good feeling at all to feel that dependent on a substance (in short supply) to feel ok.Seriously, I believe I started at .5 clonpoin, and that would really be a doozy, but eventually I was prescribed up to 2 mg, and sometimes some xanax along with it during the day- and it did nothing but stave off the worst of a withdrawal. Four to five years later I could "abuse" 4mg clonopin and still feel perfectly anxious and sleepless. Once I was on a plane-in-a-thunderstorm and took 7mg and still panicked. That doesn't seem right.
Never hallucinated on ambien. But I tended not to go to sleep with it either, and definately acted bizarrely. That was a very brief trial, I mortified myself with the things I did, said, and wrote. So if you saw any really dumb posts from me from last summer- you know why now!
> So were you actively abusing benzos laima or had you simply developed tolerance to prescribed doses?
>
> I have access to amphetamine and pot too but I don't feel like using them. I guess that's because they don't make me feel much better in the way benzos and opiates do, in fact they often made me feel much worse. I think you may be right about alcohol. It is a worry for me also as I reiscovered it last week. I found drink quite repulsive during benzo withdrawal but it feels different now. It's still not as good to me as benzos were though.
>
> >Neither were were sleeping pills like ambien: yes I acted weird- because they didn't make me/induce me to go to sleep
>
> Did you ever hallucinate on Ambien when you were in that 'hypnagogic' state as it's called? I saw elves!
>
> Q
Posted by laima on November 28, 2006, at 22:29:59
In reply to Re: Difference between Ativan and Valium? » laima, posted by Quintal on November 28, 2006, at 21:26:36
I am interested in what you say about pot and amphetamine- when I was around pot, yes, I liked it for awhile until I decided I felt stupid and apathetic, and then I just stopped using it, without any withdrawal. Just like that- the worst part was distracting myself and then reorganizing my social life. When I first got ritalin, about twice I took more than I was supposed to to induce a un-depressed, but unnatural state- but was never able to repeat it and was too spooked to anyway. Now I get ritalin but just about never take any extra. There doesn't seem to be any real reason too, and the "cost" would outweigh any benefit. However, I do notice that I develope a tolerance to it pretty easily, and take small breaks to stop that cycle and to rebuild a tolerance. ( I guess it's technically not a genuine amphetamine, either. ) When I abused these substances in the true sense it was to get something, not to stave off something. That's what feels so upsetting to me about the clonopin- the need to stave off something-it's not like I just loved how it felt and wanted more of the feeling or anything like that.
> I have access to amphetamine and pot too but I don't feel like using them. I guess that's because they don't make me feel much better in the way benzos and opiates do, in fact they often made me feel much worse. I think you may be right about alcohol. It is a worry for me also as I reiscovered it last week. I found drink quite repulsive during benzo withdrawal but it feels different now. It's still not as good to me as benzos were though.
>
> >Neither were were sleeping pills like ambien: yes I acted weird- because they didn't make me/induce me to go to sleep
>
> Did you ever hallucinate on Ambien when you were in that 'hypnagogic' state as it's called? I saw elves!
>
> Q
Posted by Quintal on November 29, 2006, at 8:25:50
In reply to Re: Difference between Ativan and Valium? » Quintal, posted by laima on November 28, 2006, at 22:29:59
> I liked it for awhile until I decided I felt stupid and apathetic, and then I just stopped using it, without any withdrawal.
Same here. I did feel a sense of deprivation for a while until I adjusted though.
>When I abused these substances in the true sense it was to get something, not to stave off something. That's what feels so upsetting to me about the clonopin- the need to stave off something-it's not like I just loved how it felt and wanted more of the feeling or anything like that.
Yes, I'm not sure I got 'high' on Klonopin either. The euphoria was more to do with the overwhelming sense of relief when all the anxiety melted away. I had little trouble withdrawing from opiates even though they are pleasurable to me - they enhance life, but benzos I sometimes think I need just to survive.
Q
Posted by laima on November 29, 2006, at 9:22:08
In reply to Re: Difference between Ativan and Valium? » laima, posted by Quintal on November 29, 2006, at 8:25:50
Well put, I agree.
> Yes, I'm not sure I got 'high' on Klonopin either. The euphoria was more to do with the overwhelming sense of relief when all the anxiety melted away. I had little trouble withdrawing from opiates even though they are pleasurable to me - they enhance life, but benzos I sometimes think I need just to survive.
>
> Q
Posted by greenhornet on December 1, 2006, at 7:57:07
In reply to Re: Difference between Ativan and Valium? » Quintal, posted by laima on November 29, 2006, at 9:22:08
> I have ben following this discussion with great interest as it brought back MANY memories. More than fourty tyears ago I was put on the ole' Meprobamate (Equanil) It worked wonders for me and my life went along fine until a new doc decided that I "had to get off that stuff" -- Well, I did and within days I was drinking vodka like a "wild Russian" I had never abused ANY substance prior to this. I stayed on this back and forth cycle (tranquilizers-booze-tranquilizers-booze) off and on for years until someone decided that I was depressed and put me on Imipramine. What followed was years of AD's. There are very few I have not taken. Then came the Ritalin when I was diagnosed ADD. Loved the stuff!!. Had to stop it, back into a horrid depression. After a couple of years of more antidepressants I came off everything. Today I take Wellbutrin SR 400mgm/day, Stattera/120 mgm/day, and Ativan 0.5 mgm twice a day. The Ativan made all the difference in the world. A physician in my family thinks that I was possibly not really depressed at all-- and that the anxiolytics are what I should have had in the first place. The only one of these meds that I ever really abused was the Ritalin -- the rapid buildup of tolerance did it.
I realize that every one and every situation must be viewed individually, but I have occasionally wondered what would have happened if the original anti-anxiety med had not be discontinued, and so abruptly??
This has been a good discussion. I really do feel that too many physicians are still way too "skitterish" about benzodiazapines...
> Well put, I agree.
>
> > Yes, I'm not sure I got 'high' on Klonopin either. The euphoria was more to do with the overwhelming sense of relief when all the anxiety melted away. I had little trouble withdrawing from opiates even though they are pleasurable to me - they enhance life, but benzos I sometimes think I need just to survive.
> >
> > Q
>
>
Posted by Quintal on December 1, 2006, at 10:47:04
In reply to Re: Difference between Ativan and Valium?, posted by greenhornet on December 1, 2006, at 7:57:07
Wow, meprobamate. I've been curious about that for a while. How do you rate it compared to the benzos?
Q
Posted by Phillipa on December 1, 2006, at 18:59:56
In reply to Re: Difference between Ativan and Valium? » greenhornet, posted by Quintal on December 1, 2006, at 10:47:04
I took meprobamate in the 70's with my first panic attacks along with valium 5mg three times a day and three beers at night. I eventually felt well so well I gave up the meprobamate and no withdrawal as I had no medical knowledge at all. Love Phillipa it must have worked
Posted by laima on December 1, 2006, at 22:58:39
In reply to Re: Difference between Ativan and Valium? » Quintal, posted by Phillipa on December 1, 2006, at 18:59:56
What is this meprobamate?
Posted by Quintal on December 2, 2006, at 3:38:22
In reply to Re: Difference between Ativan and Valium?, posted by laima on December 1, 2006, at 22:58:39
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meprobamate
Meprobamate was one of the first tranquillizers, predating the benzos. Marketed as 'Milltown' it soon became popular as 'Mommy's little helper'.
Q
Posted by laima on December 2, 2006, at 10:03:40
In reply to Re: Difference between Ativan and Valium? » laima, posted by Quintal on December 2, 2006, at 3:38:22
Thanks- interesting. I'd never heard of it.> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meprobamate
>
> Meprobamate was one of the first tranquillizers, predating the benzos. Marketed as 'Milltown' it soon became popular as 'Mommy's little helper'.
>
> Q
Posted by greenhornet on December 2, 2006, at 17:22:01
In reply to Re: Difference between Ativan and Valium? » greenhornet, posted by Quintal on December 1, 2006, at 10:47:04
> Wow, meprobamate. I've been curious about that for a while. How do you rate it compared to the benzos?
>
> QQ --
Thats a bit difficult to answer as, 1) Meprobamate was the first "mood/mind altering" substance I ever took, and 2) it was 40+ years ago and a bit tough to recall. I think it made me pretty sleepy at first. GH
Posted by Phillipa on December 2, 2006, at 18:14:38
In reply to Re: Difference between Ativan and Valium? » laima, posted by Quintal on December 2, 2006, at 3:38:22
Q so how did I have a pill that was 450mg? And no wonder the doc was shocked when I just stopped it. And it did work well. With the valium no less. Pluse three beers. Love Phillipa
Posted by Quintal on December 2, 2006, at 19:51:13
In reply to Re: Difference between Ativan and Valium? » Quintal, posted by Phillipa on December 2, 2006, at 18:14:38
Well I'm guessing there was a broader dose range available in the US during 70's when it was more widely prescribed? There probably isn't enough demand for meprobamate these days to make producing tablets with such small dosage increments profitable. 450mg does sound like an obscure dose though.
I found some interesting info that suggests meprobamate acts as a NMDA antagonist while I was searching for an answer to the dosage question. I've posted the link over on the ketamine thread. I think it's more appropriate there.
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20061129/msgs/709795.html
Q
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