![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 39 to 63 of 107. Go back in thread:
Posted by Phillipa on August 26, 2006, at 19:27:05
In reply to Re: Thanks for all the replies!... » Meri-Tuuli, posted by laima on August 26, 2006, at 11:05:24
Laima I believe that SSRI's are the answer in the UK unless you're elderly. Love Phillipa
Posted by Squiggles on August 26, 2006, at 20:13:10
In reply to Re: Thanks for all the replies!... » Squiggles, posted by Phillipa on August 26, 2006, at 19:21:43
> It's hard to die from just benzos but an OD on a tricyclic can be deadly. Love Phillipa
What brings this up?
Squiggles
Posted by Phillipa on August 26, 2006, at 20:31:06
In reply to Re: Thanks for all the replies!... » Phillipa, posted by Squiggles on August 26, 2006, at 20:13:10
I just feel strongly that benzos are the only meds that have ever helped me. And not you Squiggles but the pdocs think SSRI"S TCA's, SSNRI's have no withdrawal or danger attached to them. I sorry you're taking it personally. I didn't mean you to. Love Phillipa
Posted by sdb on August 27, 2006, at 18:45:05
In reply to What does taking a benzo actually feel like?, posted by Meri-Tuuli on August 25, 2006, at 9:13:32
Hi Meri!
A benzodiazepine is a treatment for anxiety.
I am not entirely sure in your situation. Once you took a benzo it is very likely that you're no more willing to stop the benzo treatment later. Benzos do not have many sideeffects except memory, reaction problems. It could be a problem if you want to study or read difficult things. The opposite is possible e.g. people with a lot of anxiety are just able to concentrate without thoughts blowing in their brain. Maybe there are other treatment possibilities. I can't give you many personal experience of drugs like ssris, benzos because I never used them constantly. I am not sure myself about most of these drugs. Sometimes it seems to me like an alchemie.
You have probably something like a neurosis of germs, cleaning things more than needed. Everbody has neurosis. Some people have a little more neurosis than normal. It's "normal". When you will go home and work it's possible that you forget cleaning things always or you will loose other concomitant anxieties.
I think sharing personal experience is the best way
for you to have a better, clear picture about many drugs. And there are a lot of people here sharing their experiences. That's the positive thing.sdb
> I would love to try a benzo. Right now, I have crippling anxiety issues and its getting worse.
>
> However, I live in the UK and pretty its impossible to get a benzo prescribed by a GP/pdoc. Well I'm moving to Finland soon, so maybe that might be a little better.
>
> I would just like to know how it helps with anxiety and what it feels like when you take a dose.
>
> As for the time being, I'm currently using some E. & J. Gallo White Grenache, 200ml as needed.
>
> Kind regards,
>
> Meri
>
> PS PJ I owe you en email!
>
>
Posted by laima on August 27, 2006, at 21:04:19
In reply to Re: What does taking a benzo actually feel }} meri, posted by sdb on August 27, 2006, at 18:45:05
Meri,
This post brings up a couple of points which I hadn't mentioned, but in fact "ring true" with my own experience-
When I was on my highest prescribed doses of benzos (3 mg klonopin plus xanax LA ("long acting"-and I can't remember what the dose was), I remember becoming very, very concerned with worries such as, "Am I developing early Alzheimers? Am I turning stupid? Do I have brain damage? Why can everyone else in my grad seminar follow the conversation and understand the readings, while I don't even quite know what they are talking about? Why can't I comprehend any reading the way I used to? Why does my checkbook befuddle me?" etc.
These concerns greatly diminished over time as I tapered away all the way down to my now .5 mg klonopin. I'm definately "smarter" and "sharper" now- though I'm not making any claims of being a geniuous! :) My anxiety is either same-ish or much improved- it varies, as I am still very reactive to stress and a few mild phobias.
One problem I've constantly struggled with, again, is the irresistability of an "easy fix"- which disuaded me from making common sense lifestyle adjustments- ie-why should I follow a reasonable schedule when all I had to do to cope with any stress or tension was to take more bezodiazapines? I started benzos after Sept 2001, (fear of everything, plus starting grad school while working a stressful job)--but never considered any lifestyle adjustments to augment pharmaceutical treatment. I dismissed all adjustments urged to me by mental health professionals, friends, mother- everyone. The benzos "had me in control", you see.
Some of what has helped my taper has been vigorous outdoor excercise, yoga, giving in to "smart" dumb comedy, "doing less"- all kinds of stuff like that.
These sorts of things of course, are not always "an answer" to accute anxiety, or even effective during very strained situations.
For example- I mentioned the *ineffectiveness* of "deep beathing" in an earlier post- a couple of times all that did for me was result in "hyperventilation" and emergency room visits-"cured" with xanax. I've also frantically tried to calm my self down just to make myself even more panicked, ie: "Deep breathe! No! Calm music!! No! Not working, Bath! No! More breathing! No! Oh- where is relaxation tape...oh my god it's lost...another bath! Chamomile!!!" (And later I learned that chamomile is a relative to ragweed, which I am allergic to.)I'm sure my experience does not reflect everyone else's, but I've spent plenty of time in a "trap" that is worth considering and being aware of. I maintain that when used wisely and at lowest dose necessary, benzos are very valuable, safe, and useful drugs.
> I am not entirely sure in your situation. Once you took a benzo it is very likely that you're no more willing to stop the benzo treatment later. Benzos do not have many sideeffects except memory, reaction problems. It could be a problem if you want to study or read difficult things.
Posted by Phillipa on August 27, 2006, at 21:22:37
In reply to Re: What does taking a benzo actually feel }} meri » sdb, posted by laima on August 27, 2006, at 21:04:19
Laima you had me laughing. It's not a joke but I've done the same things. Love Phillipa
Posted by Estella on August 28, 2006, at 3:54:22
In reply to Re: What does taking a benzo actually feel }} meri » laima, posted by Phillipa on August 27, 2006, at 21:22:37
Yeah, I found they disrupted my thinking too. My thinking was sluggish and slow even though I would have sworn 'there is nothing wrong with me' until I was blue in the face. Kind of like mj. 'Mj doesn't affect me I'm fine'. Yeah right I was fine. Benzo's are addictive because they work TOO WELL. Addiction JUST IS a pattern of tolerance and withdrawal. You don't have to be upping your dose to discover tolerance. One time you take it and it nearly puts you to sleep, another time you take it and it doesn't. You are getting tolerant to the effects. The withdrawal effects are... A lot like the symptoms that drove you to take the drug in the first place. Benzo's can seem like the 'wonderful magical answer' just take a pill and the anxiety seeps out of you (back to normal right? - wrong. just try and do a cognitive task and yeah sure you are fine to drive, whatever). But if you get into a pattern of taking those to manage your anxiety then... What will happen if you can't access your tablet for one reason or another?
Don't get me wrong. I take the odd valium for anxiety. Maybe once per month. I used to be addicted to benzos though. Now I'm very careful with them indeed. I'm not that happy about using them as I am...How often are you drinking to manage your anxiety?
How much are you drinking to manage your anxiety?
When you are in public, or when you are alone?Alchohol may not be the perfect fix, but it tends to be less addictive (and more socially acceptable) than benzo's. Have you thought of doing therapy or yoga or meditation or taking up exercise or something to learn how to get your body to relax drug free?
Posted by ed_uk on August 28, 2006, at 6:14:10
In reply to What does taking a benzo actually feel like?, posted by Meri-Tuuli on August 25, 2006, at 9:13:32
>What does taking a benzo actually feel like?
To me, diazepam feels like a muscle relaxant. It's good for relieving the physical tension associated with anxiety.
Ed
Posted by laima on August 28, 2006, at 10:49:14
In reply to Re: What does taking a benzo actually feel }} meri » laima, posted by Phillipa on August 27, 2006, at 21:22:37
> Laima you had me laughing. It's not a joke but I've done the same things. Love Phillipa
Hi Phillipa-
In retrospect, I find this sort of tragically funny, too- there I was, in a period of "not relying on benzos"- but a benzo on those occasions would have simply shut off the frantic and desperate efforts to relax which so badly backfired- so I suppose you know how it is sometimes- anxiety so jittery and urgent that it is just about impossible to slow down to chill.out. Once "quieted down"- that would have been a more effective time to calmly develope some of the non-drug relaxation habits...on my lower dose of klonopin, I am now trying to get those habits figured out and solidly in place so I hopefully don't end up so helpless again in the future--or at least make such scenarios less likely. I also know about myself that I can't rely on benzos constantly and forever- I just happen to develope a tolerance to them rather quickly if I use them regularly. 2mg klonopin-even 1mg klonopin- used to be able to KNOCK ME OUT, stumbley, fuzzed out- etc--but a few months later I felt they did zero- that there was absolutely no effect whatsoever and I was more anxious than ever. To think, I was originally prescribed only .5, or maybe it was only .25- and that was enough! That's how I started an abuse cycle, which I cautiously, hopefully think is now getting under control. (This involved using way more than prescribed to get any effect, then running out early, feigning lost prescription bottles, arousing suspicions, trouble after trouble, and humiliating.) I was finally warned that there would never be any benzo or other abuseable prescription for me ever again if I didn't get myself under control, and that's when tapering started. I think I'm holding steady at .5 now for awhile.
Warmly,
Laima
Posted by Squiggles on August 28, 2006, at 11:00:02
In reply to Re: What does taking a benzo actually feel }} meri » Phillipa, posted by laima on August 28, 2006, at 10:49:14
Here's a question for you:
While most benzos require an increase
in dose, otherwise you reach tolerance
and feel withdrawals-- in the case of
clonazepam that is not so. You can stay
on the same dose for a decade and not
feel withdrawal, though if you try to
withdraw it is hellish and dangerous.Q: Is it possible to stay on the same
dose of certain benzos and over a long
period of time simply withdraw by default
until you reach a point when 0.50 mg Xanax
in 1986 becomes 0.00 in 2006 even though
you have been taking the same dose?The fact that withdrawing from clonazepam
after many years on the same dose creates
serious withdrawal including seizures,
might suggest that changes have taken place
in the brain and it has little to do at all with
the dynamics of narcotic addiction known in pharmacology.Squiggles
Posted by laima on August 28, 2006, at 11:25:23
In reply to Psychopharmacology of addicting drugs, posted by Squiggles on August 28, 2006, at 11:00:02
Is this question for me, Laima?
If I am understanding the question accurately-
I am 100% living proof that a person CAN develope a tolerance to clonazepam/klonopin. Requiring more and more to get same effect- even when trying to stick to the prescribed plan. My doses have actually been raised in recognition of tolerance developing. And, if I stick to exact precribed amount, it eventually loses effectiveness. Not just lose effectiveness, but I develope backlash anxiety as "mini" daily withdrawals get started. Guarenteed. Doctor who is psychopharmocology professor agrees, and has seen it in other patients, too. Pharmacist also concurs.
Best choice in my case has been to taper down, rather than keep going up indefinately. (Note how I found it made me "fuzzier" and "stupider" on higher doses, for one thing--and what would happen when I would reach highest precribable dose, and need to come down froom that???)
This doesn't mean that it's true for everyone, though.
My withdrawals have been mixed- when sharp and sudden from high "abuse"--very, very, very rough 1-1 1/2 weeks. Slow taper, not so bad. Not fun, but not so bad as some of the other accounts I've read about.
I think we all have different tendencies and "other factors" mixed up into our experiences with klonopin and other benzos.
Maybe it's sort of like alcohol- some people can always have their 2 glasses of wine and get "happy" or tipsy and not want or crave more- others feel nothing from those 2 glasses, want to get "happy" or "tipsy"- and keep reaching for more and more and more-I know people who can drink an entire bottle and then see with surprise that it's all gone-and they "don't feel drunk yet". And then there are those enviable folks who can have their glass of wine with dinner because they love wine, and are not interested in getting any tipsiness at all-yet don't even mind if it should happen.
> Here's a question for you:
>
> While most benzos require an increase
> in dose, otherwise you reach tolerance
> and feel withdrawals-- in the case of
> clonazepam that is not so. You can stay
> on the same dose for a decade and not
> feel withdrawal, though if you try to
> withdraw it is hellish and dangerous.
>
> Q: Is it possible to stay on the same
> dose of certain benzos and over a long
> period of time simply withdraw by default
> until you reach a point when 0.50 mg Xanax
> in 1986 becomes 0.00 in 2006 even though
> you have been taking the same dose?
>
> The fact that withdrawing from clonazepam
> after many years on the same dose creates
> serious withdrawal including seizures,
> might suggest that changes have taken place
> in the brain and it has little to do at all with
> the dynamics of narcotic addiction known in pharmacology.
>
> Squiggles
Posted by Squiggles on August 28, 2006, at 11:49:56
In reply to Re: Psychopharmacology of addicting drugs » Squiggles, posted by laima on August 28, 2006, at 11:25:23
> Is this question for me, Laima?
>
I posted it in general, for anyone who
knows about these things.
> If I am understanding the question accurately-
>
> I am 100% living proof that a person CAN develope a tolerance to clonazepam/klonopin.After how long?
Requiring more and more to get same effect- even when trying to stick to the prescribed plan. My doses have actually been raised in recognition of tolerance developing.
How often have they been raised? How did you
know that Klonopin was no longer as effective?And, if I stick to exact precribed amount, it eventually loses effectiveness. Not just lose effectiveness, but I develope backlash anxiety as "mini" daily withdrawals get started. Guarenteed. Doctor who is psychopharmocology professor agrees, and has seen it in other patients, too. Pharmacist also concurs.
This has not been the case with the medical
hospital i have been to. It seems that K
is given for prolonged periods (7-10 yrs.)
of time without a change in dose. In my
case was raised only once, and then again
i raised myself (asked doc.) when the withrawal
was a failure and traumatic. A gastrointestinal
problem has developed but other than that i
do not feel withdrawal, nor do i know if the
gastro problem is not infact due to another
medical problem i have, or maybe even because
of the raise dose (since K relaxes all muscles).
>
> Best choice in my case has been to taper down, rather than keep going up indefinately. (Note how I found it made me "fuzzier" and "stupider" on higher doses, for one thing--and what would happen when I would reach highest precribable dose, and need to come down froom that???)I don't have to go up - that's just it - at least
not for decades, and withdrawing is putting my
life at risk. I think it changes your brain.
>
> This doesn't mean that it's true for everyone, though.I am one of those stubborn people who believe
that it IS the same for everyone, barring
medical and physical idiosyncracies.
>
> My withdrawals have been mixed- when sharp and sudden from high "abuse"--very, very, very rough 1-1 1/2 weeks. Slow taper, not so bad. Not fun, but not so bad as some of the other accounts I've read about.
>
> I think we all have different tendencies and "other factors" mixed up into our experiences with klonopin and other benzos.
>I wouldn't taper unless i was a beginner; after
some years it is very hard.
> Maybe it's sort of like alcohol- some people can always have their 2 glasses of wine and get "happy" or tipsy and not want or crave more- others feel nothing from those 2 glasses, want to get "happy" or "tipsy"- and keep reaching for more and more and more-I know people who can drink an entire bottle and then see with surprise that it's all gone-and they "don't feel drunk yet". And then there are those enviable folks who can have their glass of wine with dinner because they love wine, and are not interested in getting any tipsiness at all-yet don't even mind if it should happen.
>No, K is different - it is used for convulsions -
stronger than alcohol though alcohol shares the
gaba effect with most benzos.But once again, from a pharmacologist here or
a student maybe, is it possible to withdraw
imperceptibly from an addicting drug over very
long periods of time while taking the same dose?
I think so with most benzos, but I think K
is unique - maybe it changes the brain.Squiggles
Posted by laima on August 28, 2006, at 12:22:20
In reply to Re: Psychopharmacology of addicting drugs » laima, posted by Squiggles on August 28, 2006, at 11:49:56
I'm going to respectfully disagree, as it doesn't ring true with either my own experience or with the information learned from my psychiarist who is also a Professor of Psychopharmocology at a major medical school. In other words, he is as about as "exert" as I could ever hope to find. My tolerances develope after 4-6 months. If we so disagree, there is no point for me to comment any more or risk an argument. Obviously, people have varying experinces with drugs like klonopin.> > Is this question for me, Laima?
> >
> I posted it in general, for anyone who
> knows about these things.
>
>
> > If I am understanding the question accurately-
> >
> > I am 100% living proof that a person CAN develope a tolerance to clonazepam/klonopin.
>
> After how long?
>
> Requiring more and more to get same effect- even when trying to stick to the prescribed plan. My doses have actually been raised in recognition of tolerance developing.
>
> How often have they been raised? How did you
> know that Klonopin was no longer as effective?
>
>
>
> And, if I stick to exact precribed amount, it eventually loses effectiveness. Not just lose effectiveness, but I develope backlash anxiety as "mini" daily withdrawals get started. Guarenteed. Doctor who is psychopharmocology professor agrees, and has seen it in other patients, too. Pharmacist also concurs.
>
> This has not been the case with the medical
> hospital i have been to. It seems that K
> is given for prolonged periods (7-10 yrs.)
> of time without a change in dose. In my
> case was raised only once, and then again
> i raised myself (asked doc.) when the withrawal
> was a failure and traumatic. A gastrointestinal
> problem has developed but other than that i
> do not feel withdrawal, nor do i know if the
> gastro problem is not infact due to another
> medical problem i have, or maybe even because
> of the raise dose (since K relaxes all muscles).
>
>
> >
> > Best choice in my case has been to taper down, rather than keep going up indefinately. (Note how I found it made me "fuzzier" and "stupider" on higher doses, for one thing--and what would happen when I would reach highest precribable dose, and need to come down froom that???)
>
> I don't have to go up - that's just it - at least
> not for decades, and withdrawing is putting my
> life at risk. I think it changes your brain.
>
>
> >
> > This doesn't mean that it's true for everyone, though.
>
> I am one of those stubborn people who believe
> that it IS the same for everyone, barring
> medical and physical idiosyncracies.
>
> >
> > My withdrawals have been mixed- when sharp and sudden from high "abuse"--very, very, very rough 1-1 1/2 weeks. Slow taper, not so bad. Not fun, but not so bad as some of the other accounts I've read about.
> >
> > I think we all have different tendencies and "other factors" mixed up into our experiences with klonopin and other benzos.
> >
>
> I wouldn't taper unless i was a beginner; after
> some years it is very hard.
>
>
> > Maybe it's sort of like alcohol- some people can always have their 2 glasses of wine and get "happy" or tipsy and not want or crave more- others feel nothing from those 2 glasses, want to get "happy" or "tipsy"- and keep reaching for more and more and more-I know people who can drink an entire bottle and then see with surprise that it's all gone-and they "don't feel drunk yet". And then there are those enviable folks who can have their glass of wine with dinner because they love wine, and are not interested in getting any tipsiness at all-yet don't even mind if it should happen.
> >
>
> No, K is different - it is used for convulsions -
> stronger than alcohol though alcohol shares the
> gaba effect with most benzos.
>
> But once again, from a pharmacologist here or
> a student maybe, is it possible to withdraw
> imperceptibly from an addicting drug over very
> long periods of time while taking the same dose?
> I think so with most benzos, but I think K
> is unique - maybe it changes the brain.
>
> Squiggles
Posted by Squiggles on August 28, 2006, at 12:36:06
In reply to Re: Psychopharmacology of addicting drugs » Squiggles, posted by laima on August 28, 2006, at 12:22:20
>
> I'm going to respectfully disagree, as it doesn't ring true with either my own experience or with the information learned from my psychiarist who is also a Professor of Psychopharmocology at a major medical school. In other words, he is as about as "exert" as I could ever hope to find. My tolerances develope after 4-6 months. If we so disagree, there is no point for me to comment any more or risk an argument. Obviously, people have varying experinces with drugs like klonopin.
>If you what you say about Klonopin is true,
and i have no reason to doubt you, then how
would you explain the extreme withdrawals
that people report after taking the drug
for years; in comparison to the relatively
milder withdrawals of other benzos.Squiggles
Posted by laima on August 28, 2006, at 13:18:24
In reply to Re: Psychopharmacology of addicting drugs » laima, posted by Squiggles on August 28, 2006, at 12:36:06
I just think we have different variables- have different histories of different substance use, which have had different kinds of who knows what sorts of effects, many of us are currently on other various medication combinations, etc. There are so many variables...I do not question anyone's account of their klonopin or other drug withdrawals.And consider- why on earth do we not respond to all the same medications in the same way anyway? If we did, all we'd need in existence is 1 antidepressent and 1 benzo- and we could all use the same. (?) But it's not that simple, and who knows why??
> If you what you say about Klonopin is true,
> and i have no reason to doubt you, then how
> would you explain the extreme withdrawals
> that people report after taking the drug
> for years; in comparison to the relatively
> milder withdrawals of other benzos.
>
> Squiggles
>
Posted by bassman on August 28, 2006, at 13:19:48
In reply to Psychopharmacology of addicting drugs, posted by Squiggles on August 28, 2006, at 11:00:02
Interesting question-but I disagree with you (what a surprise ;>}) on two of your premises. I've never become tolerant of any benzo I've taken except Ativan-so I just tapered off that in a few days. Perhaps you have experiences that suggest tapering off benzos is very dangerous? I just wonder, because the worst that usually happens to people when they withdraw (taper) is that they may feel a bit anxious, at worst. Sure, I wouldn't want to go from 2 mg Xanax to 0 in one day, that's just ignorant, but the vast majority of people that would try that would simply be very, very discomforted, not endangered. And some people might suffer a seizure, but people suffer seizures from both taking drugs and withdrawing from drugs, and just sitting around the house.
I may just be trying to say, "don't worry", just in a convoluted way..and you've had bad experiences and I find that sad.
So...in answer to your interesting question, "no", that wouldn't work, at least for me, because I don't seem to get tolerant. Did you ever try a very, very, very slow Klonopin taper?
Posted by Squiggles on August 28, 2006, at 13:24:05
In reply to Re: Psychopharmacology of addicting drugs » Squiggles, posted by laima on August 28, 2006, at 13:18:24
>
> I just think we have different variables- have different histories of different substance use, which have had different kinds of who knows what sorts of effects, many of us are currently on other various medication combinations, etc. There are so many variables...I do not question anyone's account of their klonopin or other drug withdrawals.
>
> And consider- why on earth do we not respond to all the same medications in the same way anyway? If we did, all we'd need in existence is 1 antidepressent and 1 benzo- and we could all use the same. (?) But it's not that simple, and who knows why??
>
> > If you what you say about Klonopin is true,
> > and i have no reason to doubt you, then how
> > would you explain the extreme withdrawals
> > that people report after taking the drug
> > for years; in comparison to the relatively
> > milder withdrawals of other benzos.
> >
> > Squiggles
> >
>
>Yes, I understand the difference in the
personal states of people taking drugs,
e.g. in the case of clonazepam, no everyone
is epileptic, and therefore can take a smaller
dose, leading to a different tolerance profile.I've been surfing the net for a monograph
on clonazepam, and even Roche does not indicate
how OFTEN the dose should be raised, in any
cases (children, adolescents, adults, seniors,
restless leg sufferers, anxiety-stricken ones,
epileptics, etc.).There's got to be something somewhere - have
not checked PubMed; did see an article by
Goodwin and colleagues, on the dampening of
gaba reaction in prolonged clonazepam treatment;
no sure what that means.I will keep looking for this answer.
Squiggles
Posted by Squiggles on August 28, 2006, at 13:44:41
In reply to Re: Psychopharmacology of addicting drugs, posted by bassman on August 28, 2006, at 13:19:48
> Interesting question-but I disagree with you (what a surprise ;>}) on two of your premises. I've never become tolerant of any benzo I've taken except Ativan-so I just tapered off that in a few days. Perhaps you have experiences that suggest tapering off benzos is very dangerous? I just wonder, because the worst that usually happens to people when they withdraw (taper) is that they may feel a bit anxious, at worst. Sure, I wouldn't want to go from 2 mg Xanax to 0 in one day, that's just ignorant, but the vast majority of people that would try that would simply be very, very discomforted, not endangered. And some people might suffer a seizure, but people suffer seizures from both taking drugs and withdrawing from drugs, and just sitting around the house.
>
> I may just be trying to say, "don't worry", just in a convoluted way..and you've had bad experiences and I find that sad.
>
> So...in answer to your interesting question, "no", that wouldn't work, at least for me, because I don't seem to get tolerant. Did you ever try a very, very, very slow Klonopin taper?
The shorter the period of taking benzo X
and the lower th dose, the easier it is
to withdraw especially if you do it slowly.
I did Xanax in a month (1.50 or 2.0 mg) and
it was a relative snap - some insomnia, anxiety,
etc. Not a big deal, as you say.But clonazepam on only 0.50, after more than
10 years, and a withdrawal schedule lasting
a year and a half, on "metric" gradual
reduction, resulted in a seizure/stroke which
left brain and physically disabled in bed
for a month and a half - high/low blood pressure,
stumbling walk, extreme headache, coming in
and out of consciousness, unrsponsive pupils. It was rough.I think that this K experience was so hard
because of the "length" not dose of taking the
drug. I say this, because when I tried to
stop K in my first few years of taking in, maybe
the first, all i got was an electric zap from
my head down my arm, recovering after a month.Certain variables seem to be important in drugs:
- Length of time taken
- Dose taken
- Duration of withdrawal
- Interaction with other drugs
- Physical condition
- Type of drug (K versus X for example)
- Age
- Liver ability to metabolize
- Sexjust to name some;
Now, back to searching for some guide either
to drs. or to nurses on how often a dose
of K should be raised.Squiggles
Posted by fca on August 28, 2006, at 17:02:10
In reply to Re: Psychopharmacology of addicting drugs » bassman, posted by Squiggles on August 28, 2006, at 13:44:41
"But clonazepam on only 0.50, after more than
10 years, and a withdrawal schedule lasting
a year and a half, on "metric" gradual
reduction, resulted in a seizure/stroke which
left brain and physically disabled in bed
for a month and a half - high/low blood pressure,
stumbling walk, extreme headache, coming in
and out of consciousness, unrsponsive pupils. It was rough."
If so, I have a couple of questions if you don't mind--how old were you when this happened, how was it established that the seizure/stroke was due to the K--after a year and a half of tapering you must have been at a fraction of the dose. Is it possible there were other contributing causes. On the surface this appears such an extreme reaction after that much tapering--thanks fca
Posted by Squiggles on August 28, 2006, at 17:10:33
In reply to Squiggles--are you saying this happened to you, posted by fca on August 28, 2006, at 17:02:10
> If so, I have a couple of questions if you don't mind--how old were you when this happened,48
how was it established that the seizure/stroke was due to the K--after a year and a half of tapering you must have been at a fraction of the dose.It was very difficult all along, but it was the
last cut of the pill (no liquid, and therefore
cuts were too big) that turned things around
suddenly - an axe like feeling in the back of the
head - electric; before that lots of sweats,
insomnia, anxiety, "electric eels" - sensations
of electricity in the head, tinnitus, etc. the
usual withdrawal effects;
Is it possible there were other contributing causes.Yes - it was one of the hottest summers in
my memory - i may have had heat stroke; but
my dr. said it was withdrawal;On the surface this appears such an extreme reaction after that much tapering--thanks
Actually, seizures are noted in the American
Psychiatry Association and many other reputable
organizations for benzo withdrawal;I managed to recover by raising the dose and
staying there, but even that took a long time;
my dr. said not to try withdrawing for another
6 months - i almost laughed in his face -
i suspect it was stroke because i had such
terrible depression after, not at all common
for my drugs;Squiggles
fca
Posted by janeB on August 28, 2006, at 17:35:10
In reply to Re: Squiggles--are you saying this happened to you » fca, posted by Squiggles on August 28, 2006, at 17:10:33
Posted by Squiggles on August 28, 2006, at 17:39:31
In reply to Squiggles--do you take any K now? (nm), posted by janeB on August 28, 2006, at 17:35:10
Yes, at a higher (33%) dose than the
one I took prior to my withdrawal attempt.
It was necessary to stop the "fire" in
the head and unmanageable withdrawals.I'm stable now.
Squiggles
Posted by Phillipa on August 28, 2006, at 19:55:43
In reply to Re: Psychopharmacology of addicting drugs » laima, posted by Squiggles on August 28, 2006, at 11:49:56
Sqiggles why do you think K is unique? Personally it depresses me made me feel suicidal once when I wasn't. I've found over the many years that now they make me tired instead of relaxed And I don't know why. Dose is the same but over 30years of benzos. Love Phillipa
Posted by Phillipa on August 28, 2006, at 19:58:22
In reply to Re: Psychopharmacology of addicting drugs » laima, posted by Squiggles on August 28, 2006, at 12:36:06
I'd explain it by the fact that lmg of klonopin is equal to 20mg of valium. I was shocked to learn this. Wonder why the pdocs use it so much? Love Phillipa
Posted by fca on August 28, 2006, at 20:34:39
In reply to Re: Psychopharmacology of addicting drugs » Squiggles, posted by Phillipa on August 28, 2006, at 19:58:22
Phillipa, I don't think the 20:1 comparison of valium to clonazepam is useful except for tapering or switching benzos--while they are in the same class they have different potency, effects and average dosages per day. It is somewhat like saying that 151 proof rum is 20-30 times stronger than beer or 10-12 times stronger than wine-- it is really a matter that 1 oz of alcohol equals 1 oz of alcohol. Does that make any sense
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