![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 29 to 53 of 107. Go back in thread:
Posted by laima on August 25, 2006, at 23:28:03
In reply to Re: What does taking a benzo actually feel like?, posted by bassman on August 25, 2006, at 17:23:34
Very interesting- and note- I have used benzodiazapines on and off for a good 5-6 ywears myself, and agree they seem safe and fairly effective when used per instructions. Breaks do help preserve their effectiveness, in my own body. Also did NOT claim everyone gets "addicted"- but maintain it can and does happen- it's a real risk for some people. I've caught myself slipping that way a few times myself, but managed to pull back up, a little painfully, each time.
> There are many who would agree with your opinion. Here is research that support the opposite opinion, namely, that benzos very seldom cause addiction (as opposed to dependence) and dose escalation is unusual:
>
> Schweizer et al. (58) have conducted an 8-month, placebo-controlled study of continuation therapy for panic disorder with alprazolam and imipramine that found sustained efficacy for both compounds with no dose escalation, suggesting an absence of tolerance to the therapeutic effect
>
> Preliminary evidence for the efficacy of continuation therapy of GAD comes from two studies (43, 47). In both studies the benzodiazepine therapy achieved sustained remission of anxious symptomatology with no tolerance and no dose escalation over a 6-month period.
>
> http://www.acnp.org/G4/GN401000129/CH127.html
>
> A total of 136 patients received clonazepam nightly for a mean 3.5 (+/- 2.4) years, with no significant difference in initial versus final mean dose: 0.77 mg (+/- 0.46) versus 1.10 mg (+/- 0.96). Similar results were obtained with chronic alprazolam treatment and with other benzodiazepine treatments. CONCLUSION: Long-term, nightly benzodiazepine treatment of injurious parasomnias and other disorders of disrupted nocturnal sleep resulted in sustained efficacy in most cases, with low risk of dosage tolerance, adverse effects, or abuse.
>
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=8629680&query_hl=1&itool=pubmed_docsum
>
>
> Fifty-nine panic disorder patients originally randomized to treatment in a controlled trial comparing alprazolam, clonazepam, and placebo were reevaluated in a follow-up study. At a mean follow-up of 1.5 years, 78% of patients remained on medication and the mean dosage of alprazolam and clonazepam did not increase.
>
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=8376613&query_hl=1&itool=pubmed_docsum
>
> A 15 year study:
> Maintenance medication was common. No benzodiazepine abuse was reported. CONCLUSION: PD has a favourable outcome in a substantial proportion of patients. However, the illness is chronic and needs treatment. The short-term treatment given in the drug trial had no influence on the long-term outcome.
>
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=14680716&query_hl=1&itool=pubmed_docsum
>
> I think this is interesting because it basically says the physicians are quite prejudiced concerning benzo use, even when it comes to outcome. Who knows the benefits better, the physician or the patient? That’ s easy.
>
> The participants were 93 patients over 60 years of age using a benzodiazepine for insomnia and 25 physicians comprising sleep specialists, family physicians, and family medicine residents. The main outcome measure was perception of benefit and risk scores calculated from the mean of responses (on a Likert scale of 1 to 5) to various items on the survey. RESULTS: The mean perception of benefit score was significantly higher in patients than physicians (3.85 vs. 2.84, p < 0.001, 95% CI 0.69, 1.32). The mean perception of risk score was significantly lower in patients than physicians (2.21 vs. 3.63, p < 0.001, 95% CI 1.07, 1.77). CONCLUSIONS: There is a significant discordance between older patients and their physicians regarding the perceptions of benefits and risks of using benzodiazepines for insomnia on a long term basis. The challenge is to openly discuss these perceptions in the context of the available evidence to make collaborative and informed decisions.
>
> . http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=12019038&query_hl=11&itool=pubmed_docsum
>
> The Task Force Report, although over 10 years old, is still a standard reference for benzodiazepine use. Its points—that there is undue reluctance to use minor tranquillizers, and that many people are under treated—still hold, and are borne out by the Roy-Byrne study. Other relevant literature includes a review of 2719 adult out-patient charts2 (medical and psychiatric) for evidence of benzodiazepine abuse that found no patients meeting the criteria. Another study, of long-term alprazolam users, found no dose escalation with long-term use.3 Tyrer’s 19884 paper on minor tranquillizers notes an absence of evidence that benzodiazepine dependence leads to dangerous long-term sequellae, and blames "excessive media attention" for distortion of scientific attitudes.
>
> http://fampra.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/20/3/347
>
> Benzodiazepines are relatively safe drugs that are probably under- rather than overprescribed. Periodic reassessment of chronic users is appropriate, although generalized anxiety disorder and panic disorder are chronic conditions for which long-term treatment may be necessary. In the more recent era of safer antidepressants, these agents may be able to supplant minor tranquillizers for the control of chronic anxiety in many patients. Long-term benzodiazepine use is appropriate for some patients.
>
> http://fampra.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/20/3/347
>
> Tolerance is the need to increase the dose of a drug to maintain the desired effects. Tolerance to the anxiety-relieving effects of benzodiazepines is uncommon and most individuals do not increase their benzodiazepine dose
>
> http://www.daap.ca/factsonbenzodiazepines.html
>
Posted by Meri-Tuuli on August 26, 2006, at 3:20:37
In reply to Re: What does taking a benzo actually feel like? » Meri-Tuuli, posted by Colleen D. on August 25, 2006, at 18:05:41
Hiya!
> p.s. Where in the UK are you? My mom is Irish and all of our relatives are in Yorkshire.
I'm currently in the Midlands (soon to be Finland!). But I grew up in Yorkshire, York specifically! I like Yorkshire! Ed_uk lives in Yorkshire too.
Kind regards
Meri
Posted by Meri-Tuuli on August 26, 2006, at 3:36:21
In reply to Re: What does taking a benzo actually feel like? » bassman, posted by laima on August 25, 2006, at 23:28:03
So in conclusion:
There are different benzos which have slightly different effects.
But they all 'silence' anxiety - with no other significant side effects.
And it doesn't really feel like having an alcoholic drink - alcohol produces more side effects.
There is some issue of dependance/tolerance. But this has to be weighed up by the individul/pdoc involved.
Wow. I think I'm really going to try and ask for something from the pdoc - my anxiety is making me miserable and is really limiting my life. I have an appointment soon. Well, it might be worth discussing it with him anyway.
At the moment, I'm basically drinking to relieve my anxiety, and I don't actually like drinking to have to relieve my anxiety. Its kind of awful to be honest. Whats worse, drink or benzos??? I'm very careful to only have modest amounts of wine etc, and I know its a slippery slope...but still. I guess I'm self medicating. Oh well.
Kind regards
Meri
Posted by Squiggles on August 26, 2006, at 7:25:05
In reply to Re: What does taking a benzo actually feel like? » Squiggles, posted by Phillipa on August 25, 2006, at 22:06:29
I live in Canada. Your experience may not
be unique, just because you are in the
US though. There are millions of people
who are addicted to benzos and many lawsuits
for unsupervised AD withdrawal. And I
think that the US is a far more litigious
country, with its emphasis on individual
rights and all. Did you see the movie
"Requiem for a Dream"? That was a an
American movie.Squiggles
Posted by bassman on August 26, 2006, at 8:32:44
In reply to Thanks for all the replies!..., posted by Meri-Tuuli on August 26, 2006, at 3:36:21
I know this is lousy to say, because I like my beer, but alcohol unfortunately causes more anxiety the next day. So that's just a vote for benzos, in my opinion. And yes, I'd just assume if you take a benzo on a regular basis, it will cause dependence, that is, you won't be able to comfortably stop taking it suddenly. But that is really no hardship...I've tapered from Xanax, Klonopin, and Ativan after years of use-and with the exception of Xanax, had no withdrawal symptoms at all. Xanax withdrawal did cause some anxiety-but if I were to do it today, I'd use a benzo that I know I can withdraw from easily for help. Bear in mind that most drugs (even anti-hypertensives like beta blockers) taken regularly require tapering, so benzos, etc. aren't really all that distinct that way.
Posted by Squiggles on August 26, 2006, at 8:43:55
In reply to Re: Thanks for all the replies!..., posted by bassman on August 26, 2006, at 8:32:44
It is a situation of benefit/risk, Bassman.
Sometimes it's necessary to take benzos.
But I think that there is more to the story
of medication habituation than is revealed.
I am not at all sure that Klonopin was a
necessary drug for me, and trying to get off
it almost killed me. I can't get off it.
It's hard to get that through to laymen and medicine men. There seems to be an element
of "clinical denial" based on sponsored
studies and grant-driven confirmations of
the drug's benefit.I wouldn't be surprised if many deaths have
been a result of unpredicted prescription
medicine use and abuse, and attributed to
the patient's condition.Squiggles
Posted by laima on August 26, 2006, at 9:50:47
In reply to Thanks for all the replies!..., posted by Meri-Tuuli on August 26, 2006, at 3:36:21
>But they all 'silence' anxiety - with no other significant side effects.?
Not 1000% true, in my experience- but kind of true. That's my experience. Side effects (usually from using higher doses than needed) can include acid reflux (the thing that keeps stomache acid from moving into your esophagus can loosen up if you take klonopin at night for example), and they do or can interere with "sleep architecture"-robbing you of "slow wave sleep". Some people end up with memory problems or sensory flattening- again...usually with higher doses than needed.
As for addiction- rare or not- I personally develope a tolerance fairly easily and end up craving more and more to maintain an effect- sometimes have given in- hard to resist sometimes the "relief", especially when stressful things happen. That can set off a nasty cycle.
But I agree that they seem much more benign overall than excessive alcohol for anxiety.
Posted by bassman on August 26, 2006, at 10:51:18
In reply to Re: Thanks for all the replies!... » bassman, posted by Squiggles on August 26, 2006, at 8:43:55
I couldn't agree more-and I think the basis of our different views resides in your statement about your difficulty withdrawing from Klonopin. Your experience has obviously been a difficult one, and if I were you, I'd feel "trapped" and frankly, bitter, that I wasn't better advised as to what I was getting into. I would find the situation scary ("what if they stop prescribing the Klonopin? What if I'm on a trip and forget it"). Believe me, I've been there and didn't like it one little bit.
So in terms of perspective, now I can stop any benzo I'm taking in days, without ANY discomfort. So, of course, I feel the benefit/risk ratio is much higher than I used to or than you, understandably, do now.
I wish you only the best for the future. Thanks for sharing.
Posted by laima on August 26, 2006, at 11:05:24
In reply to Thanks for all the replies!..., posted by Meri-Tuuli on August 26, 2006, at 3:36:21
Hi Meri,
A little more-
I thought of another potential side effect- a person like me, who developes tolerance very quickly, can end up more anxious than before, due perhaps to chronic start of "withdrawl". I've read (I think on benzo.org?) that some people can go into slight withdrawal even if they don't adjust their dose, if their body starts craving more. I don't know how accurate that info is- but I've had more anxiety struggles AFTER benzos entered my life than before, though think it's hard to come up with a definate conclusion about if that is due to my coping skills, stresses, drug effects, or other factors. One definate contibutor to this problem of mine has been slipping up with controlling myself with my prescriptions when the going gets rough-then I run out early, and rebound anxiety flares-that rebound tends to be different from and worse than the original anxiety. It can be hard for me to resist craving substances which offer fast and immediate relief-I've had to develop some "tricks" to help me control myself, even as drastic as having someone else hold the bottle for me if I feel like I could be in a time of risking abuse. This has helped.
Whether or not this sort of craving-mess could turn into a side effect for you I guess depends on how well you do with addiction/substance abuse issues, I imagine.
> But they all 'silence' anxiety
I'd be careful with this conclusion- they can or could "fuzz-out" anxiety, too.
> And it doesn't really feel like having an alcoholic drink - alcohol produces more side effects.
I definately agree! You can think and function so much better on benzos than on alcohol, too. No contest here!
Benzos can be a slippery slope like alcohol, too, Though if you can control your drinking, perhaps that is a good sign (?)
But benzos can also be lifesavers, and for me personally, they help me lose interest in overdrinking-I've often turned to drinking thanks to anxiety, too.By the way, if you end up drinking while on benzos, their sedating and fuzzy effects can really intensify and the situation could get potentially dangerous-but not necessarily, if you drink only a teeny amount and are able to *control* yourself. I guess the danger is more if one takes more of each (?) I think about Marilyn Monroe...
I wish you the very best of luck with your doctor and in getting yourself a prescription to try for yourself- from how you describe your situation, I imagine they would be very helpful.
It seems that a lot of substances have a bright side and a dark side to consider- and we are all different with our situations.
I'm amazed at how hard all of you from the UK report that it is to get a benzo prescription there- seems so odd and unfortunate.
What exactly do the UK doctors expect anxious people to do when they need help with anxiety but "deep breathing" and "bubble baths" don't do the trick??I wonder if your chances would be better if you told your doctor you are drinking "more and more" due to anxiety and need an alternative, or if that would set off alarm bells?
Or, if you went the route of describing how anxiety is getting in way of your "functioning"? I think a lot of psychiatrists respond to "not functioning". Just a couple of thoughts.
Warmest wishes and good luck!
Laima
Posted by Phillipa on August 26, 2006, at 19:21:43
In reply to Re: Thanks for all the replies!... » bassman, posted by Squiggles on August 26, 2006, at 8:43:55
It's hard to die from just benzos but an OD on a tricyclic can be deadly. Love Phillipa
Posted by Phillipa on August 26, 2006, at 19:27:05
In reply to Re: Thanks for all the replies!... » Meri-Tuuli, posted by laima on August 26, 2006, at 11:05:24
Laima I believe that SSRI's are the answer in the UK unless you're elderly. Love Phillipa
Posted by Squiggles on August 26, 2006, at 20:13:10
In reply to Re: Thanks for all the replies!... » Squiggles, posted by Phillipa on August 26, 2006, at 19:21:43
> It's hard to die from just benzos but an OD on a tricyclic can be deadly. Love Phillipa
What brings this up?
Squiggles
Posted by Phillipa on August 26, 2006, at 20:31:06
In reply to Re: Thanks for all the replies!... » Phillipa, posted by Squiggles on August 26, 2006, at 20:13:10
I just feel strongly that benzos are the only meds that have ever helped me. And not you Squiggles but the pdocs think SSRI"S TCA's, SSNRI's have no withdrawal or danger attached to them. I sorry you're taking it personally. I didn't mean you to. Love Phillipa
Posted by sdb on August 27, 2006, at 18:45:05
In reply to What does taking a benzo actually feel like?, posted by Meri-Tuuli on August 25, 2006, at 9:13:32
Hi Meri!
A benzodiazepine is a treatment for anxiety.
I am not entirely sure in your situation. Once you took a benzo it is very likely that you're no more willing to stop the benzo treatment later. Benzos do not have many sideeffects except memory, reaction problems. It could be a problem if you want to study or read difficult things. The opposite is possible e.g. people with a lot of anxiety are just able to concentrate without thoughts blowing in their brain. Maybe there are other treatment possibilities. I can't give you many personal experience of drugs like ssris, benzos because I never used them constantly. I am not sure myself about most of these drugs. Sometimes it seems to me like an alchemie.
You have probably something like a neurosis of germs, cleaning things more than needed. Everbody has neurosis. Some people have a little more neurosis than normal. It's "normal". When you will go home and work it's possible that you forget cleaning things always or you will loose other concomitant anxieties.
I think sharing personal experience is the best way
for you to have a better, clear picture about many drugs. And there are a lot of people here sharing their experiences. That's the positive thing.sdb
> I would love to try a benzo. Right now, I have crippling anxiety issues and its getting worse.
>
> However, I live in the UK and pretty its impossible to get a benzo prescribed by a GP/pdoc. Well I'm moving to Finland soon, so maybe that might be a little better.
>
> I would just like to know how it helps with anxiety and what it feels like when you take a dose.
>
> As for the time being, I'm currently using some E. & J. Gallo White Grenache, 200ml as needed.
>
> Kind regards,
>
> Meri
>
> PS PJ I owe you en email!
>
>
Posted by laima on August 27, 2006, at 21:04:19
In reply to Re: What does taking a benzo actually feel }} meri, posted by sdb on August 27, 2006, at 18:45:05
Meri,
This post brings up a couple of points which I hadn't mentioned, but in fact "ring true" with my own experience-
When I was on my highest prescribed doses of benzos (3 mg klonopin plus xanax LA ("long acting"-and I can't remember what the dose was), I remember becoming very, very concerned with worries such as, "Am I developing early Alzheimers? Am I turning stupid? Do I have brain damage? Why can everyone else in my grad seminar follow the conversation and understand the readings, while I don't even quite know what they are talking about? Why can't I comprehend any reading the way I used to? Why does my checkbook befuddle me?" etc.
These concerns greatly diminished over time as I tapered away all the way down to my now .5 mg klonopin. I'm definately "smarter" and "sharper" now- though I'm not making any claims of being a geniuous! :) My anxiety is either same-ish or much improved- it varies, as I am still very reactive to stress and a few mild phobias.
One problem I've constantly struggled with, again, is the irresistability of an "easy fix"- which disuaded me from making common sense lifestyle adjustments- ie-why should I follow a reasonable schedule when all I had to do to cope with any stress or tension was to take more bezodiazapines? I started benzos after Sept 2001, (fear of everything, plus starting grad school while working a stressful job)--but never considered any lifestyle adjustments to augment pharmaceutical treatment. I dismissed all adjustments urged to me by mental health professionals, friends, mother- everyone. The benzos "had me in control", you see.
Some of what has helped my taper has been vigorous outdoor excercise, yoga, giving in to "smart" dumb comedy, "doing less"- all kinds of stuff like that.
These sorts of things of course, are not always "an answer" to accute anxiety, or even effective during very strained situations.
For example- I mentioned the *ineffectiveness* of "deep beathing" in an earlier post- a couple of times all that did for me was result in "hyperventilation" and emergency room visits-"cured" with xanax. I've also frantically tried to calm my self down just to make myself even more panicked, ie: "Deep breathe! No! Calm music!! No! Not working, Bath! No! More breathing! No! Oh- where is relaxation tape...oh my god it's lost...another bath! Chamomile!!!" (And later I learned that chamomile is a relative to ragweed, which I am allergic to.)I'm sure my experience does not reflect everyone else's, but I've spent plenty of time in a "trap" that is worth considering and being aware of. I maintain that when used wisely and at lowest dose necessary, benzos are very valuable, safe, and useful drugs.
> I am not entirely sure in your situation. Once you took a benzo it is very likely that you're no more willing to stop the benzo treatment later. Benzos do not have many sideeffects except memory, reaction problems. It could be a problem if you want to study or read difficult things.
Posted by Phillipa on August 27, 2006, at 21:22:37
In reply to Re: What does taking a benzo actually feel }} meri » sdb, posted by laima on August 27, 2006, at 21:04:19
Laima you had me laughing. It's not a joke but I've done the same things. Love Phillipa
Posted by Estella on August 28, 2006, at 3:54:22
In reply to Re: What does taking a benzo actually feel }} meri » laima, posted by Phillipa on August 27, 2006, at 21:22:37
Yeah, I found they disrupted my thinking too. My thinking was sluggish and slow even though I would have sworn 'there is nothing wrong with me' until I was blue in the face. Kind of like mj. 'Mj doesn't affect me I'm fine'. Yeah right I was fine. Benzo's are addictive because they work TOO WELL. Addiction JUST IS a pattern of tolerance and withdrawal. You don't have to be upping your dose to discover tolerance. One time you take it and it nearly puts you to sleep, another time you take it and it doesn't. You are getting tolerant to the effects. The withdrawal effects are... A lot like the symptoms that drove you to take the drug in the first place. Benzo's can seem like the 'wonderful magical answer' just take a pill and the anxiety seeps out of you (back to normal right? - wrong. just try and do a cognitive task and yeah sure you are fine to drive, whatever). But if you get into a pattern of taking those to manage your anxiety then... What will happen if you can't access your tablet for one reason or another?
Don't get me wrong. I take the odd valium for anxiety. Maybe once per month. I used to be addicted to benzos though. Now I'm very careful with them indeed. I'm not that happy about using them as I am...How often are you drinking to manage your anxiety?
How much are you drinking to manage your anxiety?
When you are in public, or when you are alone?Alchohol may not be the perfect fix, but it tends to be less addictive (and more socially acceptable) than benzo's. Have you thought of doing therapy or yoga or meditation or taking up exercise or something to learn how to get your body to relax drug free?
Posted by ed_uk on August 28, 2006, at 6:14:10
In reply to What does taking a benzo actually feel like?, posted by Meri-Tuuli on August 25, 2006, at 9:13:32
>What does taking a benzo actually feel like?
To me, diazepam feels like a muscle relaxant. It's good for relieving the physical tension associated with anxiety.
Ed
Posted by laima on August 28, 2006, at 10:49:14
In reply to Re: What does taking a benzo actually feel }} meri » laima, posted by Phillipa on August 27, 2006, at 21:22:37
> Laima you had me laughing. It's not a joke but I've done the same things. Love Phillipa
Hi Phillipa-
In retrospect, I find this sort of tragically funny, too- there I was, in a period of "not relying on benzos"- but a benzo on those occasions would have simply shut off the frantic and desperate efforts to relax which so badly backfired- so I suppose you know how it is sometimes- anxiety so jittery and urgent that it is just about impossible to slow down to chill.out. Once "quieted down"- that would have been a more effective time to calmly develope some of the non-drug relaxation habits...on my lower dose of klonopin, I am now trying to get those habits figured out and solidly in place so I hopefully don't end up so helpless again in the future--or at least make such scenarios less likely. I also know about myself that I can't rely on benzos constantly and forever- I just happen to develope a tolerance to them rather quickly if I use them regularly. 2mg klonopin-even 1mg klonopin- used to be able to KNOCK ME OUT, stumbley, fuzzed out- etc--but a few months later I felt they did zero- that there was absolutely no effect whatsoever and I was more anxious than ever. To think, I was originally prescribed only .5, or maybe it was only .25- and that was enough! That's how I started an abuse cycle, which I cautiously, hopefully think is now getting under control. (This involved using way more than prescribed to get any effect, then running out early, feigning lost prescription bottles, arousing suspicions, trouble after trouble, and humiliating.) I was finally warned that there would never be any benzo or other abuseable prescription for me ever again if I didn't get myself under control, and that's when tapering started. I think I'm holding steady at .5 now for awhile.
Warmly,
Laima
Posted by Squiggles on August 28, 2006, at 11:00:02
In reply to Re: What does taking a benzo actually feel }} meri » Phillipa, posted by laima on August 28, 2006, at 10:49:14
Here's a question for you:
While most benzos require an increase
in dose, otherwise you reach tolerance
and feel withdrawals-- in the case of
clonazepam that is not so. You can stay
on the same dose for a decade and not
feel withdrawal, though if you try to
withdraw it is hellish and dangerous.Q: Is it possible to stay on the same
dose of certain benzos and over a long
period of time simply withdraw by default
until you reach a point when 0.50 mg Xanax
in 1986 becomes 0.00 in 2006 even though
you have been taking the same dose?The fact that withdrawing from clonazepam
after many years on the same dose creates
serious withdrawal including seizures,
might suggest that changes have taken place
in the brain and it has little to do at all with
the dynamics of narcotic addiction known in pharmacology.Squiggles
Posted by laima on August 28, 2006, at 11:25:23
In reply to Psychopharmacology of addicting drugs, posted by Squiggles on August 28, 2006, at 11:00:02
Is this question for me, Laima?
If I am understanding the question accurately-
I am 100% living proof that a person CAN develope a tolerance to clonazepam/klonopin. Requiring more and more to get same effect- even when trying to stick to the prescribed plan. My doses have actually been raised in recognition of tolerance developing. And, if I stick to exact precribed amount, it eventually loses effectiveness. Not just lose effectiveness, but I develope backlash anxiety as "mini" daily withdrawals get started. Guarenteed. Doctor who is psychopharmocology professor agrees, and has seen it in other patients, too. Pharmacist also concurs.
Best choice in my case has been to taper down, rather than keep going up indefinately. (Note how I found it made me "fuzzier" and "stupider" on higher doses, for one thing--and what would happen when I would reach highest precribable dose, and need to come down froom that???)
This doesn't mean that it's true for everyone, though.
My withdrawals have been mixed- when sharp and sudden from high "abuse"--very, very, very rough 1-1 1/2 weeks. Slow taper, not so bad. Not fun, but not so bad as some of the other accounts I've read about.
I think we all have different tendencies and "other factors" mixed up into our experiences with klonopin and other benzos.
Maybe it's sort of like alcohol- some people can always have their 2 glasses of wine and get "happy" or tipsy and not want or crave more- others feel nothing from those 2 glasses, want to get "happy" or "tipsy"- and keep reaching for more and more and more-I know people who can drink an entire bottle and then see with surprise that it's all gone-and they "don't feel drunk yet". And then there are those enviable folks who can have their glass of wine with dinner because they love wine, and are not interested in getting any tipsiness at all-yet don't even mind if it should happen.
> Here's a question for you:
>
> While most benzos require an increase
> in dose, otherwise you reach tolerance
> and feel withdrawals-- in the case of
> clonazepam that is not so. You can stay
> on the same dose for a decade and not
> feel withdrawal, though if you try to
> withdraw it is hellish and dangerous.
>
> Q: Is it possible to stay on the same
> dose of certain benzos and over a long
> period of time simply withdraw by default
> until you reach a point when 0.50 mg Xanax
> in 1986 becomes 0.00 in 2006 even though
> you have been taking the same dose?
>
> The fact that withdrawing from clonazepam
> after many years on the same dose creates
> serious withdrawal including seizures,
> might suggest that changes have taken place
> in the brain and it has little to do at all with
> the dynamics of narcotic addiction known in pharmacology.
>
> Squiggles
Posted by Squiggles on August 28, 2006, at 11:49:56
In reply to Re: Psychopharmacology of addicting drugs » Squiggles, posted by laima on August 28, 2006, at 11:25:23
> Is this question for me, Laima?
>
I posted it in general, for anyone who
knows about these things.
> If I am understanding the question accurately-
>
> I am 100% living proof that a person CAN develope a tolerance to clonazepam/klonopin.After how long?
Requiring more and more to get same effect- even when trying to stick to the prescribed plan. My doses have actually been raised in recognition of tolerance developing.
How often have they been raised? How did you
know that Klonopin was no longer as effective?And, if I stick to exact precribed amount, it eventually loses effectiveness. Not just lose effectiveness, but I develope backlash anxiety as "mini" daily withdrawals get started. Guarenteed. Doctor who is psychopharmocology professor agrees, and has seen it in other patients, too. Pharmacist also concurs.
This has not been the case with the medical
hospital i have been to. It seems that K
is given for prolonged periods (7-10 yrs.)
of time without a change in dose. In my
case was raised only once, and then again
i raised myself (asked doc.) when the withrawal
was a failure and traumatic. A gastrointestinal
problem has developed but other than that i
do not feel withdrawal, nor do i know if the
gastro problem is not infact due to another
medical problem i have, or maybe even because
of the raise dose (since K relaxes all muscles).
>
> Best choice in my case has been to taper down, rather than keep going up indefinately. (Note how I found it made me "fuzzier" and "stupider" on higher doses, for one thing--and what would happen when I would reach highest precribable dose, and need to come down froom that???)I don't have to go up - that's just it - at least
not for decades, and withdrawing is putting my
life at risk. I think it changes your brain.
>
> This doesn't mean that it's true for everyone, though.I am one of those stubborn people who believe
that it IS the same for everyone, barring
medical and physical idiosyncracies.
>
> My withdrawals have been mixed- when sharp and sudden from high "abuse"--very, very, very rough 1-1 1/2 weeks. Slow taper, not so bad. Not fun, but not so bad as some of the other accounts I've read about.
>
> I think we all have different tendencies and "other factors" mixed up into our experiences with klonopin and other benzos.
>I wouldn't taper unless i was a beginner; after
some years it is very hard.
> Maybe it's sort of like alcohol- some people can always have their 2 glasses of wine and get "happy" or tipsy and not want or crave more- others feel nothing from those 2 glasses, want to get "happy" or "tipsy"- and keep reaching for more and more and more-I know people who can drink an entire bottle and then see with surprise that it's all gone-and they "don't feel drunk yet". And then there are those enviable folks who can have their glass of wine with dinner because they love wine, and are not interested in getting any tipsiness at all-yet don't even mind if it should happen.
>No, K is different - it is used for convulsions -
stronger than alcohol though alcohol shares the
gaba effect with most benzos.But once again, from a pharmacologist here or
a student maybe, is it possible to withdraw
imperceptibly from an addicting drug over very
long periods of time while taking the same dose?
I think so with most benzos, but I think K
is unique - maybe it changes the brain.Squiggles
Posted by laima on August 28, 2006, at 12:22:20
In reply to Re: Psychopharmacology of addicting drugs » laima, posted by Squiggles on August 28, 2006, at 11:49:56
I'm going to respectfully disagree, as it doesn't ring true with either my own experience or with the information learned from my psychiarist who is also a Professor of Psychopharmocology at a major medical school. In other words, he is as about as "exert" as I could ever hope to find. My tolerances develope after 4-6 months. If we so disagree, there is no point for me to comment any more or risk an argument. Obviously, people have varying experinces with drugs like klonopin.> > Is this question for me, Laima?
> >
> I posted it in general, for anyone who
> knows about these things.
>
>
> > If I am understanding the question accurately-
> >
> > I am 100% living proof that a person CAN develope a tolerance to clonazepam/klonopin.
>
> After how long?
>
> Requiring more and more to get same effect- even when trying to stick to the prescribed plan. My doses have actually been raised in recognition of tolerance developing.
>
> How often have they been raised? How did you
> know that Klonopin was no longer as effective?
>
>
>
> And, if I stick to exact precribed amount, it eventually loses effectiveness. Not just lose effectiveness, but I develope backlash anxiety as "mini" daily withdrawals get started. Guarenteed. Doctor who is psychopharmocology professor agrees, and has seen it in other patients, too. Pharmacist also concurs.
>
> This has not been the case with the medical
> hospital i have been to. It seems that K
> is given for prolonged periods (7-10 yrs.)
> of time without a change in dose. In my
> case was raised only once, and then again
> i raised myself (asked doc.) when the withrawal
> was a failure and traumatic. A gastrointestinal
> problem has developed but other than that i
> do not feel withdrawal, nor do i know if the
> gastro problem is not infact due to another
> medical problem i have, or maybe even because
> of the raise dose (since K relaxes all muscles).
>
>
> >
> > Best choice in my case has been to taper down, rather than keep going up indefinately. (Note how I found it made me "fuzzier" and "stupider" on higher doses, for one thing--and what would happen when I would reach highest precribable dose, and need to come down froom that???)
>
> I don't have to go up - that's just it - at least
> not for decades, and withdrawing is putting my
> life at risk. I think it changes your brain.
>
>
> >
> > This doesn't mean that it's true for everyone, though.
>
> I am one of those stubborn people who believe
> that it IS the same for everyone, barring
> medical and physical idiosyncracies.
>
> >
> > My withdrawals have been mixed- when sharp and sudden from high "abuse"--very, very, very rough 1-1 1/2 weeks. Slow taper, not so bad. Not fun, but not so bad as some of the other accounts I've read about.
> >
> > I think we all have different tendencies and "other factors" mixed up into our experiences with klonopin and other benzos.
> >
>
> I wouldn't taper unless i was a beginner; after
> some years it is very hard.
>
>
> > Maybe it's sort of like alcohol- some people can always have their 2 glasses of wine and get "happy" or tipsy and not want or crave more- others feel nothing from those 2 glasses, want to get "happy" or "tipsy"- and keep reaching for more and more and more-I know people who can drink an entire bottle and then see with surprise that it's all gone-and they "don't feel drunk yet". And then there are those enviable folks who can have their glass of wine with dinner because they love wine, and are not interested in getting any tipsiness at all-yet don't even mind if it should happen.
> >
>
> No, K is different - it is used for convulsions -
> stronger than alcohol though alcohol shares the
> gaba effect with most benzos.
>
> But once again, from a pharmacologist here or
> a student maybe, is it possible to withdraw
> imperceptibly from an addicting drug over very
> long periods of time while taking the same dose?
> I think so with most benzos, but I think K
> is unique - maybe it changes the brain.
>
> Squiggles
Posted by Squiggles on August 28, 2006, at 12:36:06
In reply to Re: Psychopharmacology of addicting drugs » Squiggles, posted by laima on August 28, 2006, at 12:22:20
>
> I'm going to respectfully disagree, as it doesn't ring true with either my own experience or with the information learned from my psychiarist who is also a Professor of Psychopharmocology at a major medical school. In other words, he is as about as "exert" as I could ever hope to find. My tolerances develope after 4-6 months. If we so disagree, there is no point for me to comment any more or risk an argument. Obviously, people have varying experinces with drugs like klonopin.
>If you what you say about Klonopin is true,
and i have no reason to doubt you, then how
would you explain the extreme withdrawals
that people report after taking the drug
for years; in comparison to the relatively
milder withdrawals of other benzos.Squiggles
Posted by laima on August 28, 2006, at 13:18:24
In reply to Re: Psychopharmacology of addicting drugs » laima, posted by Squiggles on August 28, 2006, at 12:36:06
I just think we have different variables- have different histories of different substance use, which have had different kinds of who knows what sorts of effects, many of us are currently on other various medication combinations, etc. There are so many variables...I do not question anyone's account of their klonopin or other drug withdrawals.And consider- why on earth do we not respond to all the same medications in the same way anyway? If we did, all we'd need in existence is 1 antidepressent and 1 benzo- and we could all use the same. (?) But it's not that simple, and who knows why??
> If you what you say about Klonopin is true,
> and i have no reason to doubt you, then how
> would you explain the extreme withdrawals
> that people report after taking the drug
> for years; in comparison to the relatively
> milder withdrawals of other benzos.
>
> Squiggles
>
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