![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 24 of 24. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by mike lynch on July 18, 2006, at 18:37:21
When I came off prozac I experienced a surge of positive emotion that went through my body. This only happened when I was in the weaning stage, when I was actually on the drug my emotions seemed inhibited.
As the drug completely left my system, I felt a deteoration in emotion, I went on the drugs because I was *TO* emotional, and now it seems my interests don't provide me with the emotional pleasure that they use to.
If it's a really stimulating and enjoyable activity like being with friends, I enjoy it enough, but smaller things that I use to enjoy doing just don't give me the emotional pleasure they use to,I just don't have to desire, essentially unless I'm doing something very stimulating and enjoyable my emotions are just to unresponsive to enjoy many, small things I use to enjoy.
I almost feel like a meth addict who, after abusing drugs for a long time, is no longer able to experience emotional pleasure from doing things because the drugs wore out his or her receptors, can this happen, can the constant tinkering with brain chemicals wear them out, could this be depression - even though I never had this kind before, has anyone else experienced anything like this before?? I almost feel fine, and I would be fine, if it weren't feeling just completely, emotionally detathced from the world.
Posted by Racer on July 18, 2006, at 18:54:07
In reply to Without emotion, posted by mike lynch on July 18, 2006, at 18:37:21
>
>
> I almost feel like a meth addict who, after abusing drugs for a long time, is no longer able to experience emotional pleasure from doing things because the drugs wore out his or her receptors, can this happen, can the constant tinkering with brain chemicals wear them out,Well, it's not that the chemicals get worn out, but the receptors they interact with can down-regulate their response. So, for instance, if you are on an SSRI like Prozac, when there's a lot more serotonin swirling around in your synapse, the serotonin receptors on the receiving end of the synapse will be less responsive to it. There may even be fewer serotonin receptors there, although those would probably come back over time.
None of that means that your brain is ruined, by the way, so keep reading...
>could this be depression - even though I never had this kind before, has anyone else experienced anything like this before?? I almost feel fine, and I would be fine, if it weren't feeling just completely, emotionally detathced from the world.It might be that you're still adjusting to the lack of Prozac. Prozac has the longest half life in the body of any SSRI, which means that it's not gone until long after you think it is. This is a good thing, because it's kinda self-tapering, but it's also a bad thing, because you won't know for a while whether what you're experiencing is stopping Prozac, or a new set of "symptoms."
Could it be depression? Yes, it could be depression. My own experience is that I am reactive when I'm mildly depressed -- I can get excited by things and they improve my mood for a while -- but when I get more than moderately depressed, NOTHING will get my emotions going. We're all different that way, and our depressions can change, too. (Well, OK, the way our depression is expressed may change. Our subjective experience of depression may change.)
Personally, SSRIs deadened my emotions, too, although the emotions did come back once I was off them. I can't remember how long that took, because it's been years since I stopped an SSRI.
Good luck.
Posted by mike lynch on July 18, 2006, at 18:57:26
In reply to Re: Without emotion » mike lynch, posted by Racer on July 18, 2006, at 18:54:07
Ya, I just don't have much else to attribute to, I don't really feel depressed, I can have a good time.. I've been off the prozac for like 46 days..I actually feel good during the weaning period.. I don't know.. I just don't like this feeling and I hope it goes away, thanks for the response
Posted by linkadge on July 18, 2006, at 19:12:29
In reply to Re: Without emotion, posted by mike lynch on July 18, 2006, at 18:57:26
These drugs are addictive, some preliminary studies have shown that SSRI's can induce some of the same neuroanatomical changes as can other drugs like MDMA.
When I came off SSRI's, it became very difficult for me to get much pleasure from anything.
Its like the hedonic threshold became two notches higher.I have no other symtpoms of depression, I sleep, eat fine and have no anxiety, but there is much less reward in life, and much less satisfaction.
More wanting, more discontent.Anyhow, I know the feeling you are talking about, and I have personally come to the same conclusions as you.
I attribute coming off SSRI's to some of the perhaps unwise decisions I had made. Since coming off them, I have started habits like smoking marajuanna, chewing nicotine gum, drinking coffee, etc, all I believe just to try and get a little more pleasure out of life.
Things I would have never done before. I was clean as a whistle before SSRI's, I think they turned on a switch.
You know what the principle action of cocaine is? It primary action is as a serotonin reuptake inhibitor.
Linkadge
Posted by mike lynch on July 18, 2006, at 22:45:46
In reply to Re: Without emotion, posted by linkadge on July 18, 2006, at 19:12:29
> These drugs are addictive, some preliminary studies have shown that SSRI's can induce some of the same neuroanatomical changes as can other drugs like MDMA.
If you can locate them, could you send me a link.. I've been doing research on this and couldn't find any real reliable studies pertaining to this subject.
>
> When I came off SSRI's, it became very difficult for me to get much pleasure from anything.
> Its like the hedonic threshold became two notches higher.Definitely, when I came off ssri's I just felt different, something wasn't right, I just wasn't who I was before meds.. I think the brain does make adjustments when on meds for such a long time.
> I have no other symtpoms of depression, I sleep, eat fine and have no anxiety, but there is much less reward in life, and much less satisfaction.
> More wanting, more discontent.same
> Anyhow, I know the feeling you are talking about, and I have personally come to the same conclusions as you.
>
> I attribute coming off SSRI's to some of the perhaps unwise decisions I had made.Coming off? Personally, I never had trouble with coming off, I would attribute the problem to GOING ON them without justification, I DIDN'T make the decision , I was feeling depressed, and at 14 years old I trusted doctors.
> Since coming off them, I have started habits like smoking marajuanna, chewing nicotine gum, >drinking coffee, etc, all I believe just to try and get a little more pleasure out of life.
It's a catch 22 for me, on them I have problems but they combat problems I have off them, and off them I have problems, but I also don't have some of the horrible side effects that I get from meds> Things I would have never done before. I was >clean as a whistle before SSRI's, I think they >turned on a switch.
I think they took a switch and put gum and glue, and dirt in the circuits.
> You know what the principle action of cocaine is? It primary action is as a serotonin reuptake inhibitor.
>
I did not know this, I always thought mdma was like that, and cocain focused on the dopamanergic (sp?) system
> Linkadge
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Posted by crabwalk on July 19, 2006, at 11:30:01
In reply to Re: Without emotion, posted by mike lynch on July 18, 2006, at 22:45:46
Same problems here, epitomized by the fact that the sexual side effects never went away and remain quite severe. I never felt like this before prozac, it's pretty much laughable at this point when people suggest that it's depression and not after-effects of ssris. The end result is that, even though I had problems before ssris, I could experience pleasure, my life wasn't joyless. It essentially is now, ssris made things a million times worse.
Posted by Phillipa on July 19, 2006, at 13:25:16
In reply to Re: Without emotion, posted by crabwalk on July 19, 2006, at 11:30:01
Okay that's it I'm quitting my luvox I feel worse everyday and I've tried the others I've had it with antidepressants I always told the docs it was anxiety not I will only take the valium I really have had it. None of them work for me and yes I have stayed on them as long as I should. I've been on luvox over a year. Love Phillipa
Posted by linkadge on July 19, 2006, at 18:19:30
In reply to Re: Without emotion, posted by mike lynch on July 18, 2006, at 22:45:46
I was 16 or 17 and I trusted doctors too. It would take a very long time for me to regain that trust.
Linkadge
Posted by Klavot on July 20, 2006, at 2:37:28
In reply to Re: Without emotion » mike lynch, posted by linkadge on July 19, 2006, at 18:19:30
> I was 16 or 17 and I trusted doctors too. It would take a very long time for me to regain that trust.
>
> LinkadgeI too was 16 when I began using Zoloft; I've been taking Zoloft on and off for 8 years now. I too feel that my ability to experience joy has been lessened, and that I've somehow lost much of my ambition. I can't say for sure that it was the Zoloft. What does one do about it though? I feel trapped - like my quality of life is poor without the drugs, while on the drugs I seem to become increasingly emotionally numb. What to do? What to do?
Posted by SLS on July 20, 2006, at 6:19:55
In reply to Re: Without emotion, posted by Klavot on July 20, 2006, at 2:37:28
> > I was 16 or 17 and I trusted doctors too. It would take a very long time for me to regain that trust.
> >
> > Linkadge
>
> I too was 16 when I began using Zoloft; I've been taking Zoloft on and off for 8 years now. I too feel that my ability to experience joy has been lessened, and that I've somehow lost much of my ambition. I can't say for sure that it was the Zoloft. What does one do about it though? I feel trapped - like my quality of life is poor without the drugs, while on the drugs I seem to become increasingly emotionally numb. What to do? What to do?
>It is quite a quandary.
It is especially confounding that one must take into consideration that depression worsens over time, so it is difficult to estimate how much anhedonia and amotivation/apathy is attributable to the illness and how much may be residual to the use of medication.
- Scott
Posted by Phillipa on July 20, 2006, at 19:38:56
In reply to Re: Without emotion, posted by SLS on July 20, 2006, at 6:19:55
So the older you get the worse depression gets? Love Phillipa
Posted by linkadge on July 20, 2006, at 21:07:15
In reply to Re: Without emotion, posted by SLS on July 20, 2006, at 6:19:55
"depression worsens over time"
In some situations depression worsens over time though certainly not in all cases.
Depression can worsen over time dispite the best pharmachological treatment.
I am trying to look for an article/study I read entitled, "Mice raised on prozac grow up depressed", which essentially described how when mice were given prozac at a certain timeframe in their development, they endured long lasting impairments to motivation and reward.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on July 20, 2006, at 21:09:40
In reply to Re: Without emotion » SLS, posted by Phillipa on July 20, 2006, at 19:38:56
"So the older you get the worse depression gets? Love Phillipa"
That has been the argument for doctors who want patients to take antidepressants for a lifetime.
Untreated depression more often than not gets better on its own without medications, wheather a next episode is more or less likely without treatment has not been conclusively determined.
Linkadge
Posted by SLS on July 20, 2006, at 22:16:39
In reply to Re: Without emotion, posted by linkadge on July 20, 2006, at 21:09:40
> Untreated depression more often than not gets better on its own without medications
Even if this were true for 90% of people, this then leaves 65 million people across the globe in need of some intervention to treat a chronic condition.
How long should someone in the 90% wait for it to get better on its own before treating?
Just asking?
- Scott
Posted by SLS on July 20, 2006, at 22:21:55
In reply to Re: Without emotion, posted by linkadge on July 20, 2006, at 21:07:15
> "depression worsens over time"
>
> In some situations depression worsens over time though certainly not in all cases.
>
> Depression can worsen over time dispite the best pharmachological treatment.
>
> I am trying to look for an article/study I read entitled, "Mice raised on prozac grow up depressed", which essentially described how when mice were given prozac at a certain timeframe in their development, they endured long lasting impairments to motivation and reward.That's a critical observation. Scary.
What happens with SERT knockout mice? This is not the identical condition because receptors and membranes develop in different millieu, but it would be interesting to compare outcomes.
- Scott
Posted by mike lynch on July 21, 2006, at 3:23:59
In reply to Re: Without emotion, posted by SLS on July 20, 2006, at 22:16:39
> > Untreated depression more often than not gets better on its own without medications
>
> Even if this were true for 90% of people, this then leaves 65 million people across the globe in need of some intervention to treat a chronic condition.
>
> How long should someone in the 90% wait for it to get better on its own before treating?
>
> Just asking?
>
>
> - ScottThe fact is, most depression isn't strong enough to significantly hinder ones life, you could trial methods like therapy before going on mindfuck meds Going on meds is like a plunge, you may dive gracefully into the water and come out unscathed, or you may hit some rocks and become permanently hindered in some way..hindered worse then you were before... you should only take the risk of jumping into meds if you truly can't funciton without them and everything else has been tried.
Posted by SLS on July 21, 2006, at 6:31:58
In reply to Re: Without emotion, posted by mike lynch on July 21, 2006, at 3:23:59
> The fact is, most depression isn't strong enough to significantly hinder ones life,
I agree.
However, we are really talking about an illness that reaches the level of a clinical syndrome defined as Major Depressive Disorder (MDD).
- Scott
Posted by stargazer on July 21, 2006, at 8:39:39
In reply to Re: Without emotion, posted by SLS on July 21, 2006, at 6:31:58
That lack of emotion was one of the worse symptoms of depression because it reminded me of being dead,so why bother with meds when you are feeling so dead inside.
I'm wondering if prhaps you were on too high a dose of Prozac? Perhaps if you stopped before coming off of it completely it might have worked at a lower level. This has happened to me in the past. Adjusting medication upwards or downwards is sometimes all it takes to get a med working again. I'm assuming it worked at some point?
Posted by linkadge on July 21, 2006, at 18:31:09
In reply to Re: Without emotion, posted by SLS on July 20, 2006, at 22:16:39
Do you have an literature that proves 90% of depression will not resolve, and that antidepressants are the only way to treat it?
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on July 21, 2006, at 18:37:08
In reply to Re: Without emotion, posted by SLS on July 20, 2006, at 22:21:55
I've read a few things on SERT knockout mice, but you're right it is likely different. From what I read though, they do seem to have a number of behavioral abnormalities.
I would assume that the activity of monoamine oxidase would have to increase (?)
I am of the belief that the effects of prozac and similar SSRI's are not restricted to serotonin transporter inhibition.
You're right, it is scarry, since (If I calculated right) that timeframe, in human years, was approximatly the timeframe during which I took SSRI's :(
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on July 21, 2006, at 18:41:50
In reply to Re: Without emotion, posted by stargazer on July 21, 2006, at 8:39:39
Going back on the SSRI's was always a horrable experience for me.
Going back on them after being off them for a few months aways resulted in an increasingly toxic reaction.
They (almost immediately), fix some of the strange movement problems I am still enduring to the day.
For instance, it often feels like my head is being twisted to the left. One hour or so after taking a test dose SSRI, that problem resolves completely.
*Nothing* else reduces the sensation.
Linkadge
Posted by SLS on July 21, 2006, at 19:09:51
In reply to Re: Without emotion » SLS, posted by linkadge on July 21, 2006, at 18:31:09
> Do you have an literature that proves 90% of depression will not resolve, and that antidepressants are the only way to treat it?
No, no, no. You misunderstood me. What I was attempting to do was to set up a hypothetical situation in which only 10% would not resolve. I was trying to demonstrate that even if only 10% needed intervention, that would still translate into millions of people. I couldn't guess as to what the true percentage must be.
- Scott
Posted by linkadge on July 21, 2006, at 21:15:27
In reply to Re: Without emotion » linkadge, posted by SLS on July 21, 2006, at 19:09:51
Oh, I see. Pardon my oversight.
Linkadge
Posted by AAA88 on July 25, 2006, at 23:04:07
In reply to Re: Without emotion, posted by mike lynch on July 21, 2006, at 3:23:59
> The fact is, most depression isn't strong enough >to significantly hinder ones life, you could >trial methods like therapy before going on >mindfuck meds Going on meds is like a plunge, you >may dive gracefully into the water and come out >unscathed, or you may hit some rocks and become >permanently hindered in some way..hindered worse >then you were before... you should only take the >risk of jumping into meds if you truly can't >funciton without them and everything else has >been tried.
thats also the way i feel about this topic. a few days ago i was given a starter pack of Effexor XR (1 week of 37.5mg/evening with food followed by another week of 75mg and im to see my physician at about day 10 to talk about the effects). i decided to wait about another week or so and try living with the mind ive been left with and am hoping that i can make myself feel better without meds. im not too sure that im at a point where i really need meds or if im taking things out of proportion.
i smoked marijuana for about 3 years (very rarely drank and used no other drugs) and what happened with me was that i had been smoking and eventually had a panick attack that lasted for an hour or 2 until i finally fell asleep. the next morning i wasnt the same (i was worried it would happen and im thinking that my expectation and fear allowed it to screw with my mind). i would experience strange things (anxiety symptoms, some bad some weaker) for the next couple weeks and the third week i just experienced some of the weaker effects.
its now the 4th week and ive been alright with the weak effects (im used to effects of depression and they dont make me feel like ive lost my mind, so i try to convince myself to feel safe with the anxiety effects) but last night and at points today i wasnt feeling too good, kind of like the "ive lost my mind" effect. the thing is, i think something in my brain is tricking my mind into believing non-sense which makes me feel these effects of anxiety and act like its really a problem.
some times i feel like im back to normal and can take care of this whole thing with my thoughts and actions, but then theres those times where it seems like i really need to take some meds to fix this. im hoping thats just a stage which is tougher to control with my free will but that its still possible.
as i mentioned already, i experience depression too but not to the point where ive actually thought about seeking help, other than from myself. once in a while id go through stages like where i dont want to do anything i enjoy and just hit my head against the wall or beat my fists on things, but ive learned to let it pass and help myself rather than let the effects really mess with my mind. the regular depressed mood i have is something im used to and i can still try enjoying things and wanting things. its almost like nothing is actually wrong unless people put a label on it and make it an issue or if i envy others for the way they experience things with their emotions. for me its just been another way of seeing and experiencing life in this world. just makes it tougher to fit in and keep friends among other things if you live in a small area with lack of distinct groups.
and with the way i see my experience with depression, im hoping i can see my anxiety in a similar way to the point where it no longer bothers me. it just seems a lot tougher, like its really f*cking with and controlling my mind.
i can remember that when i was younger i often felt nervous when approaching certain situations like anything social, and that i had certain phobias such as spiders and heights. i realize now that its probably a sign of being prone to an anxiety disorder (my brain tricking my mind into believing and acting on non-sense, although some things are honest fears like heights but i didnt have to feel the way i did about it....in recent years ive toned down my fear of heights so i still understand the safety issues but i dont get those mind-f*cking sensations).
through my experiences and observations with depression and anxiety, it seems as though i can control it with my thoughts and actions but that certain stages can make it tougher to control in those ways (cant think straight [thought] leading to not being able to do what i need to do in order to "fix" it [action]).
the past week hadnt been so bad and i thought my effects would get better with time as my subconcious mind got used to how things were, but last night and parts of today have been pretty bad. so if i keep encountering these more intense stages of anxiety (it seems to make depressed thoughts worse too) should i keep trying to fix the problem with my mind (risk having it drag on and get worse) or should i try using that starter pack my physician gave me (risk all the short-term and long-term side effects people seem to have)?
im new to the whole scene of treating these symptoms, but it seems like theres too many cases of meds ending up screwing over the users making it not worth the risk. ive read about other ways such as audio programs that reshape mental patterns and our automatic thinking (i guess that means subconcious mind in other words hypnosis?) and other books with how-to instructions. does anyone know about true results from using those methods? or maybe i should seek help from a therapist (maybe thats similar to the way i try to help myself)? i just dont know of any around my area so id have to go to the city.
This is the end of the thread.
Psycho-Babble Medication | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.