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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 21 of 21. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by BPinSEA on July 20, 2005, at 14:24:54
I found the following on Dilantin:
Search on PubMed:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=15889944&query_hl=1Website:
http://www.remarkablemedicine.com/index.htmlCan anyone tell me about their experiences?
Posted by Declan on July 20, 2005, at 14:55:18
In reply to Info on Phenytoin (Dilantin), posted by BPinSEA on July 20, 2005, at 14:24:54
Hello BP
I took Dilantin, maybe the smallest capsule is 30mg? I took 1 or 2 a day when I was cutting down on methadone. The idea was that at least it might help with the jerks I got when just asleep. I would wake up thinking I must have had a stroke, and there would also be this sensation of an electrical storm.
It might have helped. I did reduce. But I didn't get the effect Jack Dreyfus talks about.
Declan
Posted by linkadge on July 20, 2005, at 15:18:42
In reply to Re: Info on Phenytoin (Dilantin), posted by Declan on July 20, 2005, at 14:55:18
Why does this page think that dilantin is supposed to be so remarkable. Isn't it just another anticonvulsant ?
Linkadge
Posted by Declan on July 20, 2005, at 16:17:23
In reply to why is is supposed to be so remarkable ?, posted by linkadge on July 20, 2005, at 15:18:42
I don't know why, but Jack Dreyfus was cured of a life long depression with Dilantin.
My nutritional dr was interested in it for this reason and because of its use as a smart drug in low doses. Because it has been around for ages the negative effects are well known.
Declan
Posted by linkadge on July 20, 2005, at 16:59:34
In reply to Re: why is is supposed to be so remarkable ? » linkadge, posted by Declan on July 20, 2005, at 16:17:23
That is insane. It basically has the same actions as trileptal, and that was a dumb drug for me.
Linkadge
Posted by Declan on July 20, 2005, at 17:29:13
In reply to Smart drug ?, posted by linkadge on July 20, 2005, at 16:59:34
Hi Link
I don't know that it's *insane*. It's not very promising. The dose for this purpose is supposed to be no greater than 50mg/d.
Apparently there are numerous studies on positive behavioural effects in the smart drug direction. Life Extension Foundation would have them. Like I said I only took it for the jerks while tapering off methadone....it might have helped, it might not, but nothing else does anyway so there's not much competition.
Declan
Posted by linkadge on July 20, 2005, at 17:45:24
In reply to Re: Smart drug ?, posted by Declan on July 20, 2005, at 17:29:13
Maybe it has some secondary properties that make it a smart drug. I never knew that NA/CA channel inhibition could improve IQ.
Linkadge
Posted by rod on July 20, 2005, at 18:00:57
In reply to Smart drug ?, posted by linkadge on July 20, 2005, at 16:59:34
> That is insane. It basically has the same actions as trileptal, and that was a dumb drug for me.
>
>
> Linkadgeehrm no it isnt insane and only shares the common fact with Trileptal that it has an anticonvulsant effect.
It worked for a few hours for me but then I crashed. Maybe the enzyme inducing effect it has. dont know for sure why.
Other people reported the same about Dilantin (not the crash, though)
But ok, I dont know much about its exact mechanism but I have once read it has a unique effect on modulating glutamate activity. No anticunvusive drug does it like Dilantin. No Na+ channel blockade or increasing gabaergic activity etc. like the other ones.... arrr I am too lazy to look it up. So regard this info with a grain of salt :D
give it a try :)
You are drug free, so *I* would do it in your position. Maybe you brain zaps will come to an end. well, who knows...
nuff said
bye
Roland
Posted by Phillipa on July 20, 2005, at 18:25:28
In reply to Re: Smart drug !! » linkadge, posted by rod on July 20, 2005, at 18:00:57
I know they use it IV to stop seizures. Very irritating to the veins. Fondly, Phillipa
Posted by rod on July 20, 2005, at 18:33:02
In reply to Re: Smart drug !! » linkadge, posted by rod on July 20, 2005, at 18:00:57
> > That is insane. It basically has the same actions as trileptal, and that was a dumb drug for me.
> >
> >
> > Linkadge
>
> ehrm no it isnt insane and only shares the common fact with Trileptal that it has an anticonvulsant effect.
>
> It worked for a few hours for me but then I crashed. Maybe the enzyme inducing effect it has. dont know for sure why.
>
> Other people reported the same about Dilantin (not the crash, though)
>
> But ok, I dont know much about its exact mechanism but I have once read it has a unique effect on modulating glutamate activity. No anticunvusive drug does it like Dilantin. No Na+ channel blockade or increasing gabaergic activity etc. like the other ones.... arrr I am too lazy to look it up. So regard this info with a grain of salt :D
>
> give it a try :)
>
> You are drug free, so *I* would do it in your position. Maybe you brain zaps will come to an end. well, who knows...
>
> nuff said
>
> bye
> RolandOk, I looked a little at pubmed. It seems its quite unclear how Dilantin works. Some suggest an effect on Sodium channels. anyway.
there is a interesting paper:
"Effects of antiepileptic drugs on working memory as assessed by spatial alternation performance in rats."
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=15582833&query_hl=6"... and phenytoin produced a modest but significant improvement in performance .."
good night
Roland
Posted by rjlockhart98 on July 20, 2005, at 18:57:00
In reply to Re: Smart drug !! PS, posted by rod on July 20, 2005, at 18:33:02
I've taken Phenytoin before for severe insomnia one time.
My stepdad used to take it. 600mg nightly, it depends on body wieght on how much your suppost to be prescribed.
I took 300mg, i noticed, well it wasnt even noticable, just a light less load on thoughts, they become more "lighter".
I have taken it before to knock the hell out of amphetamine insomnia, with clonazepam.
But that was a long time ago. I think a year.
Posted by linkadge on July 20, 2005, at 19:04:35
In reply to Re: Smart drug !! PS, posted by rjlockhart98 on July 20, 2005, at 18:57:00
Some of the anticonvulsants can be slightly neurotoxic though.
http://jpet.aspetjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/286/1/539
Linkadge
Posted by rod on July 20, 2005, at 20:12:59
In reply to Re: Smart drug !! PS, posted by linkadge on July 20, 2005, at 19:04:35
> Some of the anticonvulsants can be slightly neurotoxic though.
>
> http://jpet.aspetjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/286/1/539
>
>
> LinkadgeSo, you mean "..phenytoin (20 µM)- and carbamazepine (100 µM)-induced neuronal apoptosis.." is at a therapheutic dose?
I dont know.
And I bet this would mean a huge dose. much more than at therapheutic level.
In this study, they showed Litium can be neuroprotective.
Lithium can also be very neurotoxic at overose....
oh wellrod
Posted by linkadge on July 20, 2005, at 20:28:48
In reply to Re: Smart drug !! PS, posted by rod on July 20, 2005, at 20:12:59
I wondered the same thing.
Linkadge
Posted by Declan on July 20, 2005, at 20:55:10
In reply to Re: Smart drug !! PS, posted by linkadge on July 20, 2005, at 20:28:48
Years ago I read this novel that was from the point of view of a US drug addict. He got away from a pharmacy with Dolantin (?) (pethidine?), and a friend was taking Dilantin. Not knowing the difference I took a fair bit of it. It gave me tinnitus, and made my teeth feel chalky and weird. The noise of cars going past became painful.
Declan
Posted by Declan on July 20, 2005, at 21:09:48
In reply to Re: Smart drug !! PS, posted by linkadge on July 20, 2005, at 20:28:48
As a smart drug it's supposed to be <50mg/d
Declan
Posted by BPinSEA on July 21, 2005, at 17:20:33
In reply to Info on Phenytoin (Dilantin), posted by BPinSEA on July 20, 2005, at 14:24:54
I'm specifically inerested if anyone has tried this drug for depression. Either on it's own, or in adjunct to something else.
Any comments?
Posted by Declan on July 21, 2005, at 17:34:38
In reply to Re: Info on Phenytoin (Dilantin), posted by BPinSEA on July 21, 2005, at 17:20:33
Well I was depressed, I suppose, when I took it and it didn't do anything one way or the other for it.
Declan
Posted by willyee on July 22, 2005, at 21:09:31
In reply to why is is supposed to be so remarkable ?, posted by linkadge on July 20, 2005, at 15:18:42
> Why does this page think that dilantin is supposed to be so remarkable. Isn't it just another anticonvulsant ?
>
>
> LinkadgeI am a big follower of the Smart drugs & Nutrients book series,in which they cover jack dreyfous and the whole dilantin theory.
Reason its claimed to be such a rave is it is/was thought to be a perfect medication for ocd driven anxiety and depression.
Dilantin stablizes electrical nerve cell activity in the brain,which is said to be the cause of some ocd,over worrying,over thinking constant state of obsession.
At low doses its believed to surpress overactivity of the brain,and also to stop repatitive thinking,thus if one stops thinking of unnessary thoughts,and being palgued by obessional thoughts,the mind is clear like a sheet of paper,and that is how it is believed to work as a smart drug.
Again it states its only considered a smart drug to those palgued with obsessional compulsive thinking.
Taurine a natural amino acid acts very similiar to dilaintin,this here is a good article about it.
http://www.restoreunity.org/dilantin_taurine.htm
Posted by linkadge on July 22, 2005, at 21:56:18
In reply to Re: why is is supposed to be so remarkable ?, posted by willyee on July 22, 2005, at 21:09:31
I can definately see what you are saying.
Linadge
Posted by Elroy on November 10, 2005, at 15:38:49
In reply to Re: why is is supposed to be so remarkable ?, posted by willyee on July 22, 2005, at 21:09:31
Some links on Jack Dreyfus (yes, the famed Wall Street guru of the 60s / 70s who founded Dreyfus and Company and the Dreyfus Funds, and then later the Dreyfus Medical Foundation which later became the Dreyfus Health Foundation) and benefits of Dilantin or phenytoin...
http://www.dhfglobal.org/pht/pht_1.html
http://www.remarkablemedicine.com/
http://www.remarkablemedicine.com/Medicine/observations.html
http://www.remarkablemedicine.com/Clinical/basicmechanisms/summary.html
http://www.remarkablemedicine.com/Clinical/index.html
http://www.remarkablemedicine.com/Clinical/clinicaluses/distinctivecharacteristics.html
Jack Dreyfus discovered that Dilantin cured his severe anxiety and depression back in the 1960s and over the next several years documented many other disorders that Dilantin has been proven effective. The doses used in treating these disorders are much less than that used for epileptic control - and it is at the higher doses where the negative side effects occasionally appear. Reading drug site informational data sheets or government articles referes to the use of the much higher doses used in the treatment of epilepsy. Jack Dreyfus himself used (as I recall from the book) primarily 100 mg daily, sometimes going to 100 mg in the morning and the 50 mg later in the day.
http://www.remarkablemedicine.com/Clinical/clinicaluses/safety/dosage.html
Overall Dilantin is much safer than most modern day pharmaceuticals.
http://www.remarkablemedicine.com/Clinical/clinicaluses/safety/safety.html
http://www.remarkablemedicine.com/Clinical/clinicaluses/safety/toxicology.html
In fact at lower doses (25 mg) Dilantin is beginining to be used by many anti-aging experts:
http://www.anti-aging-today.org/medicine/anti-aging/dilantin-phenytoin.htm
http://www.vrp.com/art/253.asp
http://www.vrp.com/art/758.asp
http://www.worldhealth.net/p/286,2059.html
For those familiar with the connection between hypercortisolism and various psychological disorders (anxiety, depression, bipolar, etc.), it is interesting to note that Dilantin also reduces cortisol levels. It does not inhibit the production of cortisol per se, but apparently metabolizes the cortisol very quickly from the body (so could possibly be a concern with someone with advanced adrenal fatigue or outright Addison's Disease).
http://stress.about.com/cs/cortisol/a/aa012901_2.htm
http://www.endocrinology.med.ucla.edu/adrenal_axis.htm
Mr. Dreyfus has since devoted most of his life to advancing the cause of Dilantin... Yes, he is still alive, recently celebrating his 92nd birthday. And, no, he has NO financial interest in any form of Dilantin.
Part of the problem with Dilantin in fact is that it was developed in 1908 and bought out by a US drug company in (I believe) 1937. It was approved for epileptic control and put on a shelf. It's patent expired (like all others) in 17 years, so when Jack Dreyfus discovered its effects (through personal use) in the 1960s, the patent had long since expired and the parent company (nor any other company) had any financial incentive to conduct extensive controlled tests to show these additional positive uses of Dilantin (though the books document tens of thousands of prescriptions being written by individual doctors for some 50+ "off-label" uses).
http://www.remarkablemedicine.com/Clinical/survey.html
I would strongly urge any reader to obtain and read his books (the initial volume that I read was published in 1988, but I understand that he has since published an updated version that was published in 2003). Aside from the very interesting information provided on Dilantin itself, you will also get a very disturbing view of how the FDA, the drug companies, and medical science really works.
That said, there are many "nay-sayers" about Jack Dreyfus and his work... but a little digging around will find that usually - not always, but usually - there's a "hidden agenda" involved.... like one would assume, there is a much, much stronger incentive for the drug companies to market medications udner patent and many (most?) of today's doctors (mentical or psychological) are simply unaware of Dilantin's low-dose usage in areas outside the realm of epileptic control (where high doses are employed).
It seems quite interesting (ironic?) that Dilantin is reappearing on the radar screens in the form of interest by the antiaging community (sure seems to have helped Jack Dreyfus out a lot in that department.. that is his current picture on the opening page of the second link above!).
http://www.remarkablemedicine.com/pressrelease.html
This is the end of the thread.
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