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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 13 of 13. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Phillipa on February 22, 2005, at 20:12:56
When I was showering I started to think [always dangerous]. Everyone is always talking about AD's "pooping out". Then I thought well, we become tolerant to benzos and even motrin, tylenol, any pain medication and require more. Also if depression returns after going off meds, and it's worse than the first time, then how is it different than rebound headaches for example? What do you think? Do we develop a tolerance for all medications? Fondly, Phillipa
Posted by linkadge on February 22, 2005, at 20:36:54
In reply to Do We Have A Tolerance To All Meds?, posted by Phillipa on February 22, 2005, at 20:12:56
Sometimes I think depression is enevitable if your situation warrents it.
I have always found that AD meds simply distracted me from the truth situation.
Afterall. If our life is depressing than we should expect depression no less than we should expect hunger if our bodies need food.
There is the paradigm shift (fairly breif in my case) that all of your problems could have nothing to do with life, but more to do with your the way "you" see things.
After a while on AD meds though you wake up one morning and say to yourself, hey!, my life still sucks. I'm no happier, my life is no easier, no less complicated, no less stressful, less tiring,
no less boring. Thats when your med poops out, when your brain learns its way around it.I love the old saying. "Just because you're paranoid, doesn't mean somebody isn't watching you !"
Linkadge
Posted by banga on February 22, 2005, at 21:31:28
In reply to Re: Do We Have A Tolerance To All Meds?, posted by linkadge on February 22, 2005, at 20:36:54
I guess it is different for me. for years I did therapy, -psychodynamic, behavioral, etc. and yes there were always problems, so it made sense that maybe the problems make me depressed.
Then one morning, I got up, in slow motion made my coffee, sat down, it all seemed to gray, and said "I want to die." And like truly an out-of-body experience, I looked down at myself and said WHOA WHOA, where is this from??, I took inventory and my life was great--good relationship, waiting to get into grad school, friends....and no I don't feel it was an existentially sad moment, it was depression showing its face in all its glory. Life can be just fine, and yet your mind twists and says you are worth nothing, life is worth nothing, end it all now. You know it isn't true, yet you believe it.My worst moments in depression have not been when i am overburdened with problems and difficulties--it is when everything objectively is just fine, yet I writhe in pain, and feel so guilty--how can I do that--feel so miserable when I have a life, a sound body--so many people do not have that, yet I cannot for the life of me enjoy it! The guilt was horrid.
So then I realized it truly is a disease, not caused by a neglectful mother or something like that, and started meds. And life came back...
BUT back to the original question on tolerance--I have said before I think the problem is--this error is written in our genes, and thus our body thinks that this state (ex. being depressed) is the "right" and normal state of the body. When we add meds, WE feel better but our cells say WHOA this is throwing a wrench into things--this is not 'normal'. Then works to get back to the "right" state--thus against the medication and back to depression. Like the brian is built on a blueprint, with depression in the final plan. Try to change that and your body will work against you. A wrestling match. A homeostatic drive back to the "natural balance," written in our genes, our body believes is the right balance.
Boy am I wordy tonight.
Posted by linkadge on February 22, 2005, at 23:22:07
In reply to Re: Do We Have A Tolerance To All Meds?, posted by banga on February 22, 2005, at 21:31:28
I don't think this is the case with me.
Of course my case is different than others'
Generally, I just woke up, and all the effects of the medication had completetely ended. I certainly felt like I was taking something, but I just felt fuzzy, buzzed, and terrably disorganized.I was like my brain was saying a lot of things, but none of which correlated to what was happeneing in my life. I mean the feeling was completely "artificial" and so my brain rejected it.
The brain continually tries to match its emotions with its reality. Sad, during times of sadness, and happy during better times. If it does this properly, then it is sane. When it works seemlessly, your contiousness buys into it. The medications totally messed this process up, but I had enought grey matter to realize that this is not the way things are.
My grandmother died, I felt nothing. I didn't even think twice about it. Even though I had previously spend many years going over to her house to play the paino for her to lift her spirits in her old age. On medication I felt nothing.Asking around, I found that this sort of reaction was not uncommon at all. The blunting effect. SSrI's and emotional indifference. So instead of coming up with some bizzare reason for this lack of concern, I figured that this med induced state is not sanity. From that point on, my brain rejected it, all of it.
Oh I suppose some would say this is the depression. But I discontinued meds, then it hit me. All the memories of her care, and kindness. Her concern, and her love came back. I reaized what I had lost, and I was able to process that event more accurately.
SSRI's, are emotional anesthetics. But pain is there for a reason. A painless life would leave
things worse off. If your hand is on a hot grill, the pain is telling us to remove it. Sure, you could take morphine, and still hold on to that grill all you want. But lack of pain doesn't mean lack of danger.I cannot pysically cry on medications. As hard as I try, there is something physically "blocking" the crying process.
The list goes on. The ways that the medications dehumanize me, dulling me to the knocks and blows of normal life.
My brain just woke up one morning and said, these medications are giving my brain false messages. False senses of security, false senses of well being. Senses of being satisfied when dissatisfaction is actually advantagious. Not that they didn't do something for the worst of it, but they continually induce a state of mind that my brain is trying to wake up from.
They simply distract me from my problems. They say, hey!, lets think about something else. But the purpose of worry is so that a solution may be found. My problems aren't solving themselves by having my mind in la-la land.
Sure, I'm addicted to them now. Rats raised on prozac show signs of depression for the remainder of their life when the drug is removed.
I will need them for ever, and the likelyhood of my brain ever reacting appropriately to incoming emotional information is very slim.
The longer I live in the fantasy world created by the meds, the longer I become disconnected from my problems. The less I derive satisfaction and pleasure from that which merrits it, and the more I derive pleasure from nonsensicle neural activity.
Its really a cult of thought. Once you're in, you can't get out. I certainly don't think in terms of survival, as much as I think in terms of which meds will shape my world the way I want to see it.
Of course I am in the advanced stages of it all. I was a believer for a while. But like I said, I just woke up one morning and my brain said to the strongest medicine "I don't thing so"
Linkadge
Posted by Phillipa on February 22, 2005, at 23:35:40
In reply to Re: Do We Have A Tolerance To All Meds?, posted by linkadge on February 22, 2005, at 23:22:07
Well said Link. I can't cry too, and thought I was a callous person. But, you're right it's the SSRI's. Fondly, Phillipa
Posted by banga on February 22, 2005, at 23:46:13
In reply to Re: Do We Have A Tolerance To All Meds?, posted by linkadge on February 22, 2005, at 23:22:07
Yes--At least in terms of the emotional blunting I can very mush see what you mean. On certain meds I experienced something akin to this, a manner of being out of touch--you can't appropriately react to something with pain and mourning, you are so dulled...if you cant process the emotions, you can't process reality.
There is definitely some danger in wishing away all emotions. I and someone just laughed the other day, because I said to her I am having trouble with anxiety. Though the anxiety may be overboard a little bit, I had to laugh, that a lot of that anxiety is ENTIRELY appropriate--huge pressure on the dissertation, financial strain, unclear future in terms of employment, children.....I'd be wierd NOT to feel hgihly anxious. unpleasant emotions have a place and a role in our life.
that is certainly one problem with the US and why antidepressants and anxiolytics are overprescribed--we are led to believe if you arent chipper happy all the time, something is not right. Yes, grieve for your lost one...for three days, then back to work you go, hup hup! Other cultures mark a whole year for grieving.
Posted by banga on February 22, 2005, at 23:48:38
In reply to Re: Do We Have A Tolerance for emotion?, posted by banga on February 22, 2005, at 23:46:13
Yes, I too have at times felt-- boy what a jerk I am, I dont feel anything, like I don't care, when I know i should.
Posted by linkadge on February 23, 2005, at 11:47:59
In reply to Re: Do We Have A Tolerance for emotion?, posted by banga on February 22, 2005, at 23:48:38
"Other cultures mark a whole year for greiving"
Wow! I did not know this. Sometimes I wonder. We say our lives are so meaningless, and yet we don't take time to reflect on the meaning that already exists in it.
The Seinfeld type of satifaction is not really the type that sticks with you.
Posted by linkadge on February 23, 2005, at 11:51:15
In reply to Re: Do We Have A Tolerance for emotion?, posted by banga on February 22, 2005, at 23:48:38
BTW, I read somewhere that all the writers of Seinfeld were on SSRIs.
Don't know if its true, but...
Linkadge
Posted by Ritch on February 23, 2005, at 12:34:54
In reply to Re: Do We Have A Tolerance for emotion?, posted by linkadge on February 23, 2005, at 11:51:15
> BTW, I read somewhere that all the writers of Seinfeld were on SSRIs.
>
> Don't know if its true, but...
>
> LinkadgeThat wouldn't surprise me any. I think that decades (or similar spans of time) are dominated by whatever substances people were into at the time. The 60's was psychedelics, the '70's was valiumed out, the '80's was coked up, and the '90's were "blissed-out" and indifferent on SSRI's??
Posted by banga on February 23, 2005, at 13:56:52
In reply to Re: Do We Have A Tolerance for emotion?, posted by linkadge on February 23, 2005, at 11:47:59
Yes; of course this is speaking of the cultures who are able to lead a more balanced life. Few can actually have a whole year of grieving and have the system work, but they will still have greater acceptance and tolerance for the gloomy aspect of life, and the individual's need to process it. Accept the positive with the negative (melancholy, death--ever see how avoidant the US is about death? Look at the cemeteries, the sterility). (Don't get me wrong I am not anti American, each culture has it strong and weak points!) When I worked as a counselor at a small prestigious college, I was struck how many students had the motto to deal with their problems--"just suck it up"--just ingnore it and get with it. YOu wonder what happens to these overachievers down the line......
Med-empowered spoke of other cultures use less meds with schizophrenia--these cultures typically have a much more solid, collectivistic support system--you take care of your own; and the whole community accepts the ill with no problem. They still ARE seen as sick, just understood differently--its possession of a demon, it's malady of the bile.....But of course then the whole atmosphere is safer in a small community than the larger, crime-filled overactive communities of the West. There is just no way this can be achieved here.And lest someone get the wrong message here--I am NOT at all saying that we should stop complaining and just work through our illness without meds. EVERYWHERE on the globe mental illness exists, and should be treated. I am talking about appropriate melancholy, anxiety and grieving that can come with the hardships of everyday life, and sseeing it as normal and part of life. When the depression and anxiety come from nowhere, or do not remit even with lots of time past, that is no longer normal and needs help.
Posted by MM on February 23, 2005, at 18:26:26
In reply to Re: Do We Have A Tolerance for emotion?, posted by banga on February 23, 2005, at 13:56:52
Very interesting thread. I agree with most of what you all have said.
I think the American culture is an un-natural one in many, many ways and that certainly contributes to my depression. It seems like a life filled with insane amounts of money, attained by any means, coupled with constant sex with "plastic people" is all that matters to so many, and I just can't be happy with that. I can't sell my soul to have the nicest car on the block and feel good. So, I can't relate to a lot of people and that also contributes. I'm not sure if the depression rates are the same in countries like Italy or Australia, but I do think this country especially is like a breeding ground for this disease, this spectrum (something to do with stress I think). I bring up Italy because it's hard for me to believe their rates could be the same when they actually take the time to come home in the middle of the day for a meal with their family. Or France where people just value a different kind of lifestyle. But, what do I know.
Another thing is that I think everyone has their vices, their drugs in whatever form. Before meds it was alcohol and "recreational" drugs for me, to numb the pain or anxiety. The meds I take now are just sort of more predictable, but I don't think there's a special difference other than the consistency (like if they regulated other drugs). I know I'm numbing myself out, but I'm hoping to use this numb state as a stepping stone to get "fixed" or helped at least in therapy while I'm not feeling too many things to get anything out of it. I did at one point hope that what I was being told about fixing my chemical imbalance was true, but I really don't think so in my case, or at least they haven't come out with the right drug to do it. Wellbutrin helps...the SSRI's were definitely much more emotionally dulling for me. But I don't think I'm going to find a perfect artificial happiness, and I don't really want to. The numbing just keeps me here until.....
I wish I could have been allowed to grieve and take the time I needed to come to terms with the bad things that happened in my life that triggered my depression, and that I never would have ventured down this path, but who knows. I know a lot of normal, happy people who are functioning using means/"crutches" that I really don't want to.As far as becoming tolerant to meds....I think that's possible (although, hopefully not true) and that's why you have to try to not completely rely on the meds.
babble, babble, babble...
MM
Posted by greg diamond on February 27, 2005, at 15:49:56
In reply to Re: Do We Have A Tolerance for emotion?, posted by banga on February 23, 2005, at 13:56:52
this discussion thread ('do we have a tolerance for emotion?') is amazing. i have been fighting with myself re; the issue of medication, after doing zoloft for 3 years for ocd. i never noticed emotional stunting, although i rarely cried. i did notice a general spaciness, but most of all i appreciated the even-keel it provided when prior to being 'drugged up' i was incapable of calming down and living my life, Ocd would eat up all my days.
i worshipped zoloft for the first year - i just generally felt like myself, i didn't spend all this time on ridiculous obsessions. after going off last year i became depressed for the first time in my life - the ocd never came back (in content anyway) but i was more down and generally anxious too. then i had a nervous breakdown after a breakup and move to a new city.
i am back on zoloft with remeron now, to take the 'edge off of life', so to speak. and i guess the removal of this edge is what we decry here - it's the question in 'listening to prozac', indeed the question about psychotropics in general. at what point are we in true need of them? i guess anything beyond the threshold of severe depression into mania. yet on the other hand, i can afford them now, i am not functioning well without them, and i am also doing cbt. so who knows? i am so open to hearing the argument against them and yes i think they are grossly over-prescribed.
This is the end of the thread.
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