![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 23 to 47 of 47. Go back in thread:
Posted by Ritch on January 20, 2005, at 0:05:14
In reply to do many drs prescribe stims for depression?, posted by CareBear04 on January 19, 2005, at 19:27:45
> i've heard of this being done, but i've certainly never met a pdoc who would do this for me. then again, i tend not to have atypical depression nor purely melacholic depression, but rather, jittery and agitated depressions.
>
> 10mg of adderall doesn't seem like too much to me. i take 30mg of xr and 10mg of immediate release. but then again, when i started at about 20-30mg a day, i was on lithium for my mmood stabilizer, which is as strong as they come for me.
>
> i have the tendency to self-medicate or adjust my doses myself, too. it doesn't help that my pdoc gives me scripts for a handful of prns that i can take at my discretion. at least she's pretty cool about taking more or less meds depending on how i feel, which is more than what it sounds like your pdoc is like.
>
> i think if my pdoc put stringent restrictions on what i can and can't do, i'd be more apt to disobey. my last pdoc kinda joked that if i were any younger, he would diagnose me with oppositional defiant disorder. maybe knowing this, the drs would rather help me do things safely than take the chance that i could hurt myself by disobeying their orders.
>
> i don't remember much anymore about what the last couple of posts were about, but i hope this relates at least minimally.
The real theme that Ron is talking about is self-discontinuation of a *new* medication (add or change) that is prescribed at one visit and then soon after the add or change, the patient experiences what they sincerely believe (with good evidence) of *worsening* of their condition (an immediate manic reaction). It is generally understood that it takes a classic unipolar depressive at least a two week trial (i.e) with an antidepressant to experience much positive benefit. So one might expect a doctor to poohpooh adverse effects of the AD and push the patient to comply and wait it out. With bipolar things get a lot more complicated... there are a lot of substances that can worsen the condition immediately (and potentially very dangerously) and not just fail to work and give "side effects". I just think Ron's pdoc was a little asleep at the wheel and didn't pay proper attention. I took a 4-day course of high dose prednisone once (for hives) and nearly flipped out so bad that I almost lost my job. It was kind of like putting salt on a slug. This is where pdocs have to watch things closely... When the communication loop isn't the best sometimes the patient needs to make the call.
Posted by Ron Hill on January 22, 2005, at 16:25:07
In reply to do many drs prescribe stims for depression?, posted by CareBear04 on January 19, 2005, at 19:27:45
Posted by smith562 on January 23, 2005, at 7:59:04
In reply to Re: Thanks Care Bear. I'll talk to ya in February (nm), posted by Ron Hill on January 22, 2005, at 16:25:07
Hey Ron,
I have a feeling I am BPII ... father is BP II and I have this tough atypical depression with panic that low dose lithium helps. I keep playing with lamictal ... seem to work great for 3 days then nothing. How is lamictal working for you?
Thank a million ...
Smith
PS I had read Colin's troubles with lamictal in the past
Posted by smith562 on January 23, 2005, at 8:01:51
Hey Ron,
the post is above
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20050119/msgs/446121.html
Thanks
Smith
Posted by Ron Hill on January 24, 2005, at 23:13:18
In reply to Ron: Quick Question about Lamictal, Thank You » Ron Hill, posted by smith562 on January 23, 2005, at 7:59:04
Smith,
I'm not the best person to ask about Lamictal because my pdoc and I added it to my cocktail only two months ago. I tend to get rashes from any of the moodstabilizers (AED's and Lithobid) so it's no suprize that I get a rash from Lamictal. I've ramped up VERY slowly (I'm up to 50 mg/day after two months) and yet I have developed a pronounced rash problem from Lamictal. My pdoc wants to hold at 50 mg/day until we see if the rash will go away.
Therefore, as you can see, I'm not the best person to ask, because I'm not even up to a theraputic dose level. Others on this board are much better qualified to answer your questions. However, I have noticed that your experience of obtaining early but short-lived benefit from Lamictal seems to be a common complaint with this particular medication. Further, short-term benefit is often reported after each small increase.
I like Lamictal (except for the rash). I like the way it feels in my brain. But I'm not on a high enough dose to make any conclusions yet. I also tried Lamictal several years ago (1998) but I had to discontinue due to rash. I started at way too high of a dosage back then.
-- Ron
Bipolar II and Obsessive Compulsive Personality Traits
600 mg/day Lithobid
900 mg/day Trileptal
50 mg/day Lamictal
5 mg/day Adderall XR for just one day when needed to chase away the bipolar atypical depression demons. If I take Adderall XR for more than one day at a time, it induces "pstim burnout" symptoms.
-------------------------------------------------> Hey Ron,
>
> I have a feeling I am BPII ... father is BP II and I have this tough atypical depression with panic that low dose lithium helps. I keep playing with lamictal ... seem to work great for 3 days then nothing. How is lamictal working for you?
>
> Thank a million ...
>
> Smith
>
> PS I had read Colin's troubles with lamictal in the past
Posted by SLS on January 25, 2005, at 6:20:50
In reply to Re: Ron: Quick Question about Lamictal, Thank You » smith562, posted by Ron Hill on January 24, 2005, at 23:13:18
Hi Ron.
> Bipolar II and Obsessive Compulsive Personality Traits
My bipolar disorder is kind of a strange one that doesn't fit into either I or II. However, I have had to deal with perfectionism. Do you think your obsessiveness might be perfectionism?
- Scott
Posted by Ron Hill on January 25, 2005, at 21:19:13
In reply to Re: Ron: Quick Question about Lamictal, Thank You » Ron Hill, posted by SLS on January 25, 2005, at 6:20:50
> Hi Ron.
>
> > Bipolar II and Obsessive Compulsive Personality Traits
>
> My bipolar disorder is kind of a strange one that doesn't fit into either I or II. However, I have had to deal with perfectionism. Do you think your obsessiveness might be perfectionism?
>
>
> - Scott
>
>Scott,
Perfectionism is definitely part of it. Obsessive Compulsive Personality Traits is more commonly referred to as Obsessive Compulsive Personality Disorder (OCPD). But OCPD is not to be confused with OCD. For example, no frequent hand washing in OCPD.
I have a very mild case of OCPD and several of the criteria listed in DSM-IV are not applicable to my case. Sometimes I wonder if my OCPD symptoms are merely coping mechanisms that I have unconsciously implemented to compensate for my bipolar II brain chemistry problems. In other words, as a BP II, I desperately need order and structure in my life in order to function. And perhaps my OCPD traits are merely the outward signs of the mechanism that my brain has implemented so as to facilitate the needed structure and order. However, I'm sure it's not that simple. For example, I suspect there is also a genetic component to the OCPD.
Here are the DSM-IV diagnostic criteria for OCPD:
Diagnostic criteria for 301.4 Obsessive-Compulsive Personality Disorder
A pervasive pattern of preoccupation with orderliness, perfectionism, and mental and interpersonal control, at the expense of flexibility, openness, and efficiency, beginning by early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts, as indicated by four (or more) of the following:(1) is preoccupied with details, rules, lists, order, organization, or schedules to the extent that the major point of the activity is lost
(2) shows perfectionism that interferes with task completion (e.g., is unable to complete a project because his or her own overly strict standards are not met)
(3) is excessively devoted to work and productivity to the exclusion of leisure activities and friendships (not accounted for by obvious economic necessity)
(4) is overconscientious, scrupulous, and inflexible about matters of morality, ethics, or values (not accounted for by cultural or religious identification)
(5) is unable to discard worn-out or worthless objects even when they have no sentimental value
(6) is reluctant to delegate tasks or to work with others unless they submit to exactly his or her way of doing things
(7) adopts a miserly spending style toward both self and others; money is viewed as something to be hoarded for future catastrophes
(8) shows rigidity and stubbornness
Reprinted with permission from the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, Fourth Edition, Text Revision. Copyright 2000 American Psychiatric Association
Scott, just so you know, I'll be gone for a couple of weeks. So if you reply, it may be a while before I get back to you. Be well, my friend! :-)
Posted by jasmineneroli on January 27, 2005, at 13:26:31
In reply to Re: Obsessive Compulsive Personality Disorder » SLS, posted by Ron Hill on January 25, 2005, at 21:19:13
Hi:
Just jumping in here - from my work with "at risk" youth, it's pretty clear that a personality disorder IS just what you describe - a way of coping with certain life events, traumas, chronic illness, abuse or other situations. It's an adaptive behaviour.
There may well be brain chemistry involvement, due to physiological brain "adaptations" or responses, on a chemical level, to the above- described scenarios. There is also the psychological aspect, in terms of the behaviour a certain personality adopts, to cope and soothe.If the behaviour becomes such that it interferes with the quality of a person's life, or makes them appear "eccentric" or otherwise not "fit in" socially, then it's a "disorder".
Best of luck with it. OCPD can be very difficult to live with, for both the patient and others.
Regards,
Jas
Posted by CareBear04 on January 28, 2005, at 12:51:22
In reply to Re: Ron: Quick Question about Lamictal, Thank You » Ron Hill, posted by SLS on January 25, 2005, at 6:20:50
hey sls,
i think there's at least one big thing to keep in mind about OCPD. it's supposed to affect mostly men, but as a female, i meet nearly all the criteria. still, i've never been diagnosed because though i meet the letter of the diagnosis, i don't really fit the 'spirit' of it. i think OCPD is a diagnosis for those who are very controlling, who fail to trust others and delegate because they don't trust that the other people will do things as well and as thoroughly as they would. perfectionism is one part of it, but so is the tendency to control and subordinate others for the sake of doing it. that's my impression of the disorder and the reason i've never been diagnosed, though i meet the criteria. hope this helps!
Posted by lars1 on January 30, 2005, at 2:02:58
In reply to Re: Obsessive Compulsive Personality Disorder » Ron Hill, posted by jasmineneroli on January 27, 2005, at 13:26:31
Are any drugs effective for OCPD, or is the treatment exclusively psychosocial? Do drugs that work for OCD (SSRI's, Anafranil) work for OCPD?
Posted by CareBear04 on January 30, 2005, at 15:26:38
In reply to Re: Obsessive Compulsive Personality Disorder, posted by lars1 on January 30, 2005, at 2:02:58
i don't know of any meds that are specific for OCPD. supposedly, therapy is hard but most effective, and it's a long-term commitment. i think therapy is supposed to be so difficult because people with OCPD have a hard time trusting or trusting that the T is competent, so they are often wanting to terminate early. good luck!
Posted by medhed on January 31, 2005, at 2:23:16
In reply to Re: Obsessive Compulsive Personality Disorder » lars1, posted by CareBear04 on January 30, 2005, at 15:26:38
Luvox is an SSRI prescribed for this disorder.
Posted by Questionmark on January 31, 2005, at 5:49:31
In reply to Re: Obsessive Compulsive Personality Disorder, posted by lars1 on January 30, 2005, at 2:02:58
> Are any drugs effective for OCPD, or is the treatment exclusively psychosocial? Do drugs that work for OCD (SSRI's, Anafranil) work for OCPD?
i definitely have OCPD and i have not found any drugs to have any significant benefit-- including Paxil, which, as an SRI, should be one of the more promising or helpful, and Nardil, which has been extraordinary for my depression and anxiety but has done nothing really noticeable for my perfectionistic and obsessive-compulsive thoughts and behaviors.
i *have* noticed that when i miss enough Nardil doses (currently at 4 pills or 60mg per day) to cause a noticeable withdrawal-type feeling (which doesn't take much or long), i get much more obsessive-compulsively perfectionistic and what not-- as Paxil withdrawal also did. Despite what some naive researchers and psychiatrists might say, however, i do NOT believe that this is an indication that the Nardil is significantly benefitting my OCPD symptoms. It's simply that withdrawal makes them worse.
*Although i have not found any substances to noticeably help my OCPD, there are many substances and factors that can easily/significantly aggravate it.* For example, stimulant use can make me much more obsessive-compulsive, especially in the "come-down" phase. Insufficient food intake (i.e., the hunger and mental effects that accompany this) can as well. Probably the worst factors for inducing and aggravating compulsive perfectionistic behaviors in me are stress and anxiety. They can make me a crazy obsessive-compulsive freak-- being perfectionistic to the point where i begin telling myself (in my head) that i need to stop doing what i'm doing and trying to improve every little minute insignificant detail.. yet STILL conTINue!! And it drives me freaking inSANE!!
But so, yeah, anyway, i haven't found any medications to be helpful in any noticeably significant way.
i seriously doubt it, but i do wonder whether a benzodiazepine might be at all helpful. i've taken Klonopin a number of times but i can't remember how it affected my OCPD. Also, i've never taken a benzo daily for that long and wonder whether that may be helpful at all. But again i doubt it.Oh, to all of you OCPD people: you must find a good therapist and get ongoing therapy. It (particularly CBT) is the only effective.. the only POSSible way that one can overcome OCPD to any significant extent. i have been seeing a great therapist for almost two years now and, in minor but very important ways, have been helped a great deal (espECIally in at least knowing what kind of things i have to do to get better). Ultimately, i still have hardly improved at all (sadly), but this is primarily if not solely because i haven't followed his instructions and advice very well at all (due to my horrendous procrastination problem and the inexplicable complexity of my mind and of my obsessive & perfectionistic ways & needs)... (and NOT because i distrust or doubt my psychologist [i don't distrust or doubt him]-- as i understand many OCPD patients are said to do-- among other problems that make therapy difficult for them).
But yeah, this sickness, this disease, has totally prevented me from bettering my life. It has exponentially increased my regrets, for which depression and anxiety had already made immense. If anyone knows of any miracle cures for this and lets me/us know, i will be in debt to you for life.
Hope this post is helpful.
Posted by gadman on January 31, 2005, at 12:20:34
In reply to Re: Obsessive Compulsive Personality Disorder, posted by lars1 on January 30, 2005, at 2:02:58
I have been diagnosed GAD with minor OCPD.
I have found that in some cases Effexor actually made my OCPD worse, where now I am on Cymbalta and it seems to have helped in that area quite a bit. (Although worse in other areas)
Watch, I will mispell a wourd. There... I did it, and I am not going to correct it. :-)
Gadman
Posted by Questionmark on January 31, 2005, at 17:37:21
In reply to Re: Obsessive Compulsive Personality Disorder » lars1, posted by gadman on January 31, 2005, at 12:20:34
Posted by lars1 on February 2, 2005, at 0:41:54
In reply to Re: Obsessive Compulsive Personality Disorder » lars1, posted by Questionmark on January 31, 2005, at 5:49:31
> Hope this post is helpful.
Thanks. It was. When I read the DSM description of OCPD in Ron Hill's post, it was as if he was describing me personally!
I too have tried cognitive-behavioral therapy. I found it very helpful for depressive symptoms, but only slightly helpful for obsessive/compulsive symptoms. With CBT, I could see that my perfectionism was unnecessary and counterproductive, and I could understand the cognitive distortions behind it, but somehow that wasn't enough to let me stop being perfectionistic. I was doing this on my own, using David Burns' books. Maybe I would have had more success with a therapist.
I'm currently taking stimulants (Adderall + Wellbutrin) and have been considering if they have any effect on obsessiveness/compulsiveness. When I am on them, I have a strong tendency to continue doing whatever I am currently doing. This could be interpreted as a kind of "obsessiveness." However, when I look at the OCPD symptoms from the DSM, I find that, if anything, stims help them. So, while stims (for me) may cause obsessiveness in the general sense, they don't cause it in the specific way that the DSM means it.
Lars
Posted by thinkfast on February 3, 2005, at 19:15:37
In reply to Re: Obsessive Compulsive Personality Disorder, posted by medhed on January 31, 2005, at 2:23:16
> Luvox is an SSRI prescribed for this disorder.
I've got a roomate with OCPD and BP that takes Luvox. Luvox is also my new med for OCD. I'm not dx'd BP but we are almost exactly the same and take the same meds, including seroquel. What does this mean? One of our therapists and their Dx is wrong. I'm dx'd OCD, but don't have the rituals and whatnot. Perhaps it is OCPD and not OCD?
Posted by CareBear04 on February 3, 2005, at 19:42:55
In reply to Re: Obsessive Compulsive Personality Disorder, posted by thinkfast on February 3, 2005, at 19:15:37
thinkfast, for awhile all the pdocs and Ts knew i had an anxiety disorder but couldn't pinpoint which one. i have a few OCD compulsive qualities like frequent (but not too frequent) handwashing, ordering things repetetively by color before i could do anything, obsessing over numbers and combinations and superstition... but none of the compulsions were so disruptive as to really meet the compulsive part of OCD. but apparently, there is OCD, purely obsessional without compulsions. this is what this pdoc said i had and one of the reasons he started me on an SSRI. lexapro messed me up so bad, and when i told him the thoughts were racing faster than ever and the ruminations were worse, he suggested that maybe that happens-- worse before better. another pdoc suggested luvox, but i never tried it. i think OCPD is quite different from OCD despite the similarity in names. OCPD is more about perfection, control, criticism of self and others, etc. OCD, especially without compulsions, is more like ruminations, unwanted thoughts racing through your head over and over, feeling guilty or fearing what things could happen, and stuff like that. i haven't thought about these dx's in awhile, but that's what i remember.
Posted by Questionmark on February 6, 2005, at 0:22:01
In reply to Re: Obsessive Compulsive Personality Disorder » thinkfast, posted by CareBear04 on February 3, 2005, at 19:42:55
Here's a link to some articles on some subtypes (if that's an accurate word here) of OCD:
www.ocdonline.com/articlesphillipson.htm
...including one on OCPD and one or two on the Purely Obsessional form of OCD, among others.
i think they're quite good.
Posted by Ron Hill on February 9, 2005, at 11:35:14
In reply to Re: Ron: Quick Question about Lamictal, Thank You » Ron Hill, posted by SLS on January 25, 2005, at 6:20:50
Scott,
So what do you think? Do you meet the DSM-IV critera for OCPD?
-- Ron
---------------------> Hi Ron.
>
> > Bipolar II and Obsessive Compulsive Personality Traits
>
> My bipolar disorder is kind of a strange one that doesn't fit into either I or II. However, I have had to deal with perfectionism. Do you think your obsessiveness might be perfectionism?
>
>
> - Scott
>
>
Posted by SLS on February 12, 2005, at 8:17:37
In reply to Re: Is OCPD dx applicable? » SLS, posted by Ron Hill on February 9, 2005, at 11:35:14
Hi Ron.
> So what do you think? Do you meet the DSM-IV critera for OCPD?
No. However, I see a hint of myself in the description. I picked up a perfectionist temperament from my mother, whom generally has fit the definition in the past. She has mellowed a bit over the years to the point where she acutally allows people in the house with their shoes on.
The perfectionism that I did carry with me was enough that one of my doctors noticed it about 20 years ago. He remarked that even if he could find a drug that worked, my perfectionism would act to produce a relapse. From that day on, I made it a project to rid myself of it. For the most part, I have been successful. Every now and then, especially during one of my brief remissions, I see the vestiges of it. However, I feel confident that whatever remains is not pathological and won't affect my recovery.
I once started a thread here asking how many people with bipolar disorder were perfectionists. We had quite a turn-out. :-)
- Scott
> > > Bipolar II and Obsessive Compulsive Personality Traits
> > My bipolar disorder is kind of a strange one that doesn't fit into either I or II. However, I have had to deal with perfectionism. Do you think your obsessiveness might be perfectionism?
Posted by Questionmark on February 12, 2005, at 14:56:30
In reply to Re: Is OCPD dx applicable? » Ron Hill, posted by SLS on February 12, 2005, at 8:17:37
> Hi Ron.
>
> > So what do you think? Do you meet the DSM-IV critera for OCPD?
>
> No. However, I see a hint of myself in the description. I picked up a perfectionist temperament from my mother, whom generally has fit the definition in the past. She has mellowed a bit over the years to the point where she acutally allows people in the house with their shoes on.
>
> The perfectionism that I did carry with me was enough that one of my doctors noticed it about 20 years ago. He remarked that even if he could find a drug that worked, my perfectionism would act to produce a relapse. From that day on, I made it a project to rid myself of it. For the most part, I have been successful. Every now and then, especially during one of my brief remissions, I see the vestiges of it. However, I feel confident that whatever remains is not pathological and won't affect my recovery.
>
>
> I once started a thread here asking how many people with bipolar disorder were perfectionists. We had quite a turn-out. :-)
>
>
> - Scott
>
>
> > > > Bipolar II and Obsessive Compulsive Personality Traits
>
> > > My bipolar disorder is kind of a strange one that doesn't fit into either I or II. However, I have had to deal with perfectionism. Do you think your obsessiveness might be perfectionism?
Scott, you said, "From that day on, I made it a project to rid myself of it [(excessive perfectionism)]. For the most part, I have been successful."
Would you mind sharing some of the ways in which you were able to do that please? Pleeeease??? Mine is killing me. Thank you.
(Also, just wanted to say that i'm not bipolar, just straight OCPD (+ other things), if this is important info to the subject matter at all for anyone.)
Posted by SLS on February 14, 2005, at 13:35:42
In reply to How on earth..? (Perfectionism related) » SLS, posted by Questionmark on February 12, 2005, at 14:56:30
> Would you mind sharing some of the ways in which you were able to do that please? Pleeeease??? Mine is killing me. Thank you.
That's a hard question for me to answer because I have been doing it for so long, that it has become part of me.I think it is essential to first recognize one's perfectionism and come to believe that it is counterproductive and damaging. You have to believe that you would be better off without it. Most perfectionists believe that their perfectionism serves them well to accomplish things that a lack of perfectionism would not. In reality, one functions more efficiently and can accomplish more in the absence of perfectionsism.
I guess the second step is to learn what perfectionist thoughts and behaviors look like. It is only with the recognition of these that one can begin to modify them.
I use a cognitive-behavioral approach to actually interrupt the cycle of perfectionist thoughts and behaviors and substitute them with healthy ones.
When is something that you do "good enough" to be good enough? In the beginning, it takes some blind faith to try to let go of a project, regardless of how small, as being anything less than perfect and trust that it will be "good enough" to serve its function. You need to learn to walk away. Little by little, you begin to see that most things do not have to be perfect to be perfectly fine :-)
It is a very, very gradual process. It is important to continually tell yourself that perfectionism is bad for you, and that you want to change the way you function. HOWEVER, do not feel that you have to do a perfectly good job of ridding yourself of perfectionism! Episodic failures are inevitable and part of the process.
- Scott
Posted by Optimist on February 14, 2005, at 16:43:24
In reply to Re: How on earth..? (Perfectionism related) » Questionmark, posted by SLS on February 14, 2005, at 13:35:42
"HOWEVER, do not feel that you have to do a perfectly good job of ridding yourself of perfectionism!"
> - Scott
I like that quote. I could see how that could happen. It's like worrying about trying not to worry. :)
Brian
Posted by Questionmark on February 16, 2005, at 15:54:09
In reply to Re: How on earth..? (Perfectionism related) » Questionmark, posted by SLS on February 14, 2005, at 13:35:42
> > Would you mind sharing some of the ways in which you were able to do that please? Pleeeease??? Mine is killing me. Thank you.
>
>
> That's a hard question for me to answer because I have been doing it for so long, that it has become part of me.
>
> I think it is essential to first recognize one's perfectionism and come to believe that it is counterproductive and damaging. You have to believe that you would be better off without it. Most perfectionists believe that their perfectionism serves them well to accomplish things that a lack of perfectionism would not. In reality, one functions more efficiently and can accomplish more in the absence of perfectionsism.
>
> I guess the second step is to learn what perfectionist thoughts and behaviors look like. It is only with the recognition of these that one can begin to modify them.
>
> I use a cognitive-behavioral approach to actually interrupt the cycle of perfectionist thoughts and behaviors and substitute them with healthy ones.
>
> When is something that you do "good enough" to be good enough? In the beginning, it takes some blind faith to try to let go of a project, regardless of how small, as being anything less than perfect and trust that it will be "good enough" to serve its function. You need to learn to walk away. Little by little, you begin to see that most things do not have to be perfect to be perfectly fine :-)
>
> It is a very, very gradual process. It is important to continually tell yourself that perfectionism is bad for you, and that you want to change the way you function. HOWEVER, do not feel that you have to do a perfectly good job of ridding yourself of perfectionism! Episodic failures are inevitable and part of the process.
>
>
> - Scott
Thank you Scott. Those are some extremely good points-- including/especially that "HOWEVER, do not feel that you have to do a perfectly good job of ridding yourself of perfectionism!" At first i thought, *that's a neat little pun/sentence*, but didn't think it was something i had a problem with. But then i thought about it and i very well might be delaying (procrastinating) my efforts and progress because of some kind of belief that relief of my perfectionism needs to be perfect in some sense as well (if that makes sense). So that IS a very good point. Thanks a lot.
This is the end of the thread.
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