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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by TenMan on September 26, 2004, at 1:00:05
In reply to coffee helps my irrational fears !! meaning ???, posted by linkadge on September 25, 2004, at 14:56:58
I agree linkadge. Coffee seems to make me more confident and social which is a big pro for a social phobic like myself. 300mgs. of wellbutrin and a couple cups of joe and I feel almost normal.:)
I have always attributed coffee's positive effects on my psyche to it's opoid attributes.
Posted by Stryker88 on September 26, 2004, at 2:38:52
In reply to Re: coffee helps my irrational fears !! meaning ??? » linkadge, posted by iris2 on September 25, 2004, at 20:59:55
I like the way i feel when for the first few minutes while drinking a cup, I just wish I could feel that way all the time, but the coffee wears off then you feel terrible. If there is a medication I could take that makes you feel energy like caffiene then i am on it.
Posted by linkadge on September 26, 2004, at 7:14:59
In reply to Re: coffee helps my irrational fears !! meaning ???, posted by Stryker88 on September 26, 2004, at 2:38:52
Its a warmth and a friendliness too.
Linkadge
Posted by ron1953 on September 26, 2004, at 7:43:30
In reply to coffee helps my irrational fears !! meaning ???, posted by linkadge on September 25, 2004, at 14:56:58
Maybe you should talk to your pdoc about a CNS stimulant (Dexedrine, Adderal, Provigil and others). They're longer lasting than caffeine.
Posted by Optimist on September 26, 2004, at 16:21:52
In reply to Re: coffee helps my irrational fears !! meaning ?? » linkadge, posted by ron1953 on September 26, 2004, at 7:43:30
Very interesting. I feel the same way. Caffeine works as an effective antidepressant for me. I feel more energetic, optimistic, motivated, and social. I have thought myself, if I could only feel like this all the time it would be great. I feel like I use it as a crutch though, which is not good.
I'm currently on 300mg of wellbutrin and the caffeine seems to be much more effective, but perhaps they work on different levels.
Posted by Mistermindmasta on September 26, 2004, at 17:13:15
In reply to coffee helps my irrational fears !! meaning ???, posted by linkadge on September 25, 2004, at 14:56:58
> After ingesting a cup or two of coffee all my irrational fears seem to fade out the window.
> It really calms me down.
>
> What does this mean ???
>
>
> Linkadge
The EXACT same thing happens to me. I think it's the result of stimulation of the prefrontal cortex which tends to lower input to the amygdala. Stimulants, SSRI's or benzos can lower amygdala (fear center of the brain) activity but all through different mechanism. It's actually quite an interesting thing to notice, when you realise that caffeine is known mostly for producing anxiety, not reducing it. But yes, I agree with you. One thing to take note to is that caffeine toxicity is associated with anxiety, whereas caffeine withdrawal is also associated with anxiety. However, the mechanisms are different.I think I want to make a dinstinction between fear and physical anxiety. I get jittery and shaky and all that when I use caffeine, but I would not be wrong to say that I feel less fear, more optimistic, energetic, interested, etc etc. It reduces fear but ups physical anxiety. I enjoy caffeine. The physical anxiety doesn't bring me down.
Studies have shown that caffeine withdrawal is associated with reduced dopamine (i forget what receptor + where) activity and this is what causes anxiety upon withdrawal. I would suspect that all of us who react positively to caffeine actually have underactive dopamine receptors and when we use caffeine we temporarily feel what normal people feel - no irrational fears, friendlier, etc.
Posted by Stryker88 on September 27, 2004, at 4:43:49
In reply to Re: coffee helps my irrational fears !! meaning ??, posted by Optimist on September 26, 2004, at 16:21:52
coffee/caffiene makes me able to focus on things were as normally i am uninterested, but this is only a temperary fix.
Posted by Bill LL on September 27, 2004, at 8:49:02
In reply to Re: coffee helps my irrational fears !! meaning ???, posted by TenMan on September 26, 2004, at 1:00:05
I take 20 mg of Lexapro and 120 mg of Strattera, but I don't feel really good until I take my daily pill of 200 mg caffeine (No Doze brand). For me it lasts just about all day.
Posted by iris2 on September 27, 2004, at 10:30:14
In reply to Re: coffee helps my irrational fears !! meaning ???, posted by Mistermindmasta on September 26, 2004, at 17:13:15
Based on this information would you suggest to someone who is anxious to perhaps drink a cup of coffee as a quick OTC fix?
irene
Posted by iris2 on September 27, 2004, at 10:52:29
In reply to coffee helps my irrational fears !! meaning ???, posted by linkadge on September 25, 2004, at 14:56:58
Linkadge,
Your post stimulated quite a discussion about the cons and mostly pros of coffee drinking.
It is said to make one more energetic, optimistic, motivated, have more social confidence, less depressed, promote warmth and friendliness and fade irrational fears.
And I always thought one was supposed to stay away from caffeine:)
I did learn recently that there is something (cannot remember what) in coffee that is not good for you. The person explained that caffeine was good for you but to drink coffee and not have this chemical one is supposed to always make it with a PAPER FILTER. The paper apparently filters out whatever this is. Just thought I'd put my two cents in.
Now I am convinced to start drinking a cup or so every day if for no other reason than to observe any potential positive outcome. I had stopped drinking caffeine altogether several years ago with the exception that if I start to get a migraine I drink it to shrink the blood vessels and it usually stops the migraine from coming on. I guess it is good for a lot of thing. One needs to realize these things are chemicals and can be of possible value and treat them as such.
irene
Posted by Bill LL on September 27, 2004, at 11:44:22
In reply to Re: coffee helps my irrational fears !! meaning ??? » linkadge, posted by iris2 on September 27, 2004, at 10:52:29
I just pasted an extract of an NIH study on rats.
Caffeine induces dopamine and glutamate release
in the shell of the nucleus accumbens
by
Solinas M, Ferre S, You ZB,
Karcz-Kubicha M, Popoli P, Goldberg SR.
Section of Preclinical Pharmacology,
Behavioral Neuroscience Branch,
National Institute on Drug Abuse,
National Institutes of Health Intramural Research Program,
Baltimore, Maryland 21224, USA.
J Neurosci 2002 Aug 1;22(15):6321-4ABSTRACT
An increase in the extracellular concentration of dopamine in the nucleus accumbens (NAc) is believed to be one of the main mechanisms involved in the rewarding and motor-activating properties of psychostimulants such as amphetamines and cocaine. Using in vivo microdialysis in freely moving rats, we demonstrate that systemic administration of behaviorally relevant doses of caffeine can preferentially increase extracellular levels of dopamine and glutamate in the shell of the NAc. These effects could be reproduced by the administration of a selective adenosine A1 receptor antagonist but not by a selective adenosine A2A receptor antagonist. This suggests that caffeine, because of its ability to block adenosine A1 receptors, shares neurochemical properties with other psychostimulants, which could contribute to the widespread consumption of caffeine-containing beverages.
Posted by Mistermindmasta on September 27, 2004, at 13:00:44
In reply to Re: coffee helps my irrational fears !! meaning ??? » Mistermindmasta, posted by iris2 on September 27, 2004, at 10:30:14
> Based on this information would you suggest to someone who is anxious to perhaps drink a cup of coffee as a quick OTC fix?
>
> ireneIt's VERY dependent on the situation. For example, I do not suggest drinking coffee for phobic anxieties, like if you're going to give a speech. I suggest drinking coffee especially for constant low grade free floating anxiety. It's a good temporary fix. Like, if you're stressed about finding a new job or stressed about how much you have to study for a test. You become much more optimistic and less scared to face difficult situations. Every day when I get my little caffeine buzz I lose my fear of little stresses and tasks that face me. It's good to turn a "stressful" future situation into a "challenging" one without needing an ounce of willpower. This is both good and bad...
Posted by woolav on September 27, 2004, at 14:53:13
In reply to Re: coffee helps my irrational fears !! meaning ???, posted by Mistermindmasta on September 27, 2004, at 13:00:44
I just want to say, I too drink coffee alot, for one the meds make me tired! And i do notice that when i am going to a social function,I either want an alcoholic drink or coffee beforehand. And I feel that coffee is the better choice of the two. It does get me more talkative and that is what ppl with SP need....
S
Posted by Optimist on September 27, 2004, at 15:02:34
In reply to Re: coffee helps my irrational fears !! meaning ???, posted by Mistermindmasta on September 27, 2004, at 13:00:44
I'm curious. Would adderal have similar effects to caffeine? Is there anybody that's been on both and can compare. I know they have similar effects. The fact that adderal stays in your system longer is a bonus.
Posted by Stryker88 on September 27, 2004, at 16:32:35
In reply to Re: coffee helps my irrational fears !! meaning ??? » linkadge, posted by iris2 on September 27, 2004, at 10:52:29
My daily caffiene intake has been raised since I started taking Effexor xr 150mg I guess becuase of the unmanagable drowsiness.
morning-16oz cup of coffee
lots of water
morning-rockstar/or monter energy drink
lots of water
aftrnon-2000mg Panax Ginseng
aftrnon-50mg No Doz
lunch -coke or pepsi 12 oz can
break -cup of coffee
night -cup of coffee
night -diet coke 12 oz can
sleep
Posted by Stryker88 on September 27, 2004, at 16:34:47
In reply to Re: coffee helps my irrational fears !! meaning ??? » linkadge, posted by iris2 on September 27, 2004, at 10:52:29
This info was written by a Dr. Mcdougall.
http://www.nealhendrickson.com/mcdougall/2004nl/040700coffeepf.htm
Posted by Optimist on September 30, 2004, at 20:15:21
In reply to Re: coffee helps Dr's article linklots of info, posted by Stryker88 on September 27, 2004, at 16:34:47
So... I was wondering. If I feel at my best with caffiene in my system what other drugs may be a better substitute?
I'm currently on 300mg of wellbutrin SR per day along with 1800mg of St. John's Wort. I take some tyrosine in the mornings or before a workout sometimes as well. Usually in dosages around 3 grams.
Currently if I take all my meds and pop a caffience pill or two I feel great, pretty much a 100%, but this does not last. I will have lots of energy for a few hours then crash shortly afterwards.
Funny as it may sound, caffiene feels like the best antidepressant I've ever taken. I have a pdoc appt tomorrow and was thinking about asking her to augment my treatment but am a little unsure in which direction at this moment.
I feel like the SJW is contributing to my apathy. It makes me feel unambitious, and not really concerned with my lot in life. I'm currently unemployed and need to focus my energy and ambition in that direction.
I feel the SJW is adding some positive effects though. I have some mild social anxiety and it seems to help with that. I've always felt shy and it seems to take the edge off somewhat. I figure I may need some kind of serotonin action.
So any ideas here? I'm thinking of either effexor, or prozac to replace the SJW, to basically do the same job but be more activating. Basically something that can be more activating but won't konk out after a few hours.
Posted by zeugma on September 30, 2004, at 20:24:56
In reply to Re: coffee helps, where do I go from here?, posted by Optimist on September 30, 2004, at 20:15:21
Posted by iris2 on October 1, 2004, at 9:56:03
In reply to Re: coffee helps, where do I go from here?, posted by Optimist on September 30, 2004, at 20:15:21
I don't know you very well but you are working out you have some physical energy and motivation.The caffiene is probably giving you a short lived boost in energy and some concentration. Think about how many people drink coffee around the 4 o'clock slump when people start feeling mentally and physically tired at work and drink a cup to kind of invigorate them to get through the rest of the day. It does not sound like it is working exactly like an antidepressant for you.
Can you describe your apathy more? Do you feel like on your current medications you could not work? Could you concetrate? Are you having trouble getting to a job? In other words are you having trouble motivating?
I think it is a little difficult for me to understand because even though you are posting this message that you think you should perhaps change meds because: "...feel unambitious, and not really concerned with my lot in life. I'm currently unemployed and need to focus my energy and ambition in that direction."
On one hand you say you are not really concerned and on the other you say you need to focus your energy and ambition. It sounds like perhaps you feel like you have energy and ambition but are not able to focus it?A lot of questions I know. It does not sound like you are in a real bad place now but I might not be reading you very well that is why I asked a lot of questions.
It is unclear exactly what symptoms you want to ameliorate with a medicine change so I would not know how to advise you. I might not know anyway but perhaps others on the site would.
irene
Posted by iris2 on October 1, 2004, at 9:59:02
In reply to provigil, if you can tolerate it (nm) » Optimist, posted by zeugma on September 30, 2004, at 20:24:56
Okay, nothing to do with the content of the post. I am still and forever trying to figure out all the abbreviations. I might sound dumb but what does (nm) stand for?
irene
Posted by zeugma on October 1, 2004, at 18:48:47
In reply to Re: provigil, if you can tolerate it » zeugma, posted by iris2 on October 1, 2004, at 9:59:02
Posted by Stryker88 on October 1, 2004, at 23:51:40
In reply to Re: provigil, if you can tolerate it » zeugma, posted by iris2 on October 1, 2004, at 9:59:02
I don't know how I can succeed at a high pressure job with a coffee addiction. Coffee makes me hyper therefore I somtimes make poor judgments, and it puts me into a fantasy world. In the middle of a hectic work-day, while having to deal with my boss, a cup of joe really, can cause me problems, it makes me do things I normally would not do otherwise.
Having said that coffee makes me feel alive, more alert, etc, however the feeling is short lived. I have to keep drinking coffee to stay at that level of high alertness.
Posted by Optimist on October 2, 2004, at 13:01:45
In reply to Re: coffee helps, where do I go from here? » Optimist, posted by iris2 on October 1, 2004, at 9:56:03
Thanks Iris for the feedback. I was in a bit of a hurry when I sent my last post so it may have not been as easy to understand as I'd hoped.
My pain problem is more so with staying on task with motivation, concentration, and energy for a sustained period of time. I've had problems with lethargy for quite awhile... the last 8 years or so. I'm 27 now, and was introduced to coffee/caffiene at around 22. It did provide me with something I felt I had been missing for a long time. Namely cognitive improvement, motivation, and energy.
Yes I do exercise. It's been a huge part of my life for as long as I can remember. My nutrition and exercise are among my top priorities in life and always attend to those before spending money/time on other things which may be of more entertainment value. The exercise is therapeutic in a way in that I find it gives me a lot of benefits in terms of energy and mood. I've always been a great athlete and participating in sports, gives me a sense of happiness/accomplishment. A hobby of sorts. The time spent is nothing extreme though, around an hour and a half 3 times a week.
The main problem now which I eluded to before is the moodiness and energy fluctuations which is mainly cause by the caffiene. I am not surprised by this, but I find it hard to live without, since when I am on nothing I feel like a lump of coal anyways. I would rather feel good part of the time, rather than bad all of the time.
I went to my pdoc yesterday and got a script for Adderall. The doctor suggestioned that since it has a much longer halflife than caffiene that it may prove to be more beneficial. Yes, it may seem like patchwork using a stimulant... I'm trying to make informed decisions on future treatment with the help of my pdoc. I know there are many other drugs, i.e. provigil, mirapex, selegiline, etc... that work on the same NT's, so I do have an open mind on the treatment options on the future as well.
I am reacting quite well to the wellbutrin that I have been on the last few months. I have responded well to a dopamine agonist in the past as well (Vitex). It seems my main issues lie upon the norepinephrine and dopamine pathways.
I have sometimes wondered whether I may have partial bipolar symptoms. I do seem to fit some of the criterion although I don't think I'm a very good fit with respect to others. I've never had a problem with sleep for as long as I remember, and I know that sleep disturbances is one of the first indicators of bipolar. There does seem to be a yearly cycle to my depressions though. Winter and summer I tend to get depressed, while spring and fall I tend to feel better. The fluctations seem to make it hard for me to track whether I have mostly biological or cognitive problems leading to my depressions. I think that both may contribute. Both bipolar and depression runs in my family.
I don't think that I have ADD in particular. It's really hard to say. I took 20mg adderall for the first time this morning and this post seems to be the longest and quickest that I have wrote in a long time. It seems to be helping quite well in that regard. Time will tell if it is a better alternative to what I've been doing before.
As I've eluded to before, I pretty much feel perfect lately when the caffiene kicks in. The lack of sustaining that feeling is mainly the problem now. I am not suffering from any depressive symptoms which is very promising.
My apathy with regards to find a job and that I don't seem to care too much, I think is somewhat St. John's Wort induced. I definitely didnt' feel that way before. I had more of the ambition characteristics without the energy to fulfil my ideas. A lot of worry and guilt perhaps in regards to my inergic depression as well. Now some of my ambition seems to be sapped away, so that I am more happy doing nothing which isn't that productive either.
I know that I have some problems with decision making abilities which may have been contributed to by the caffiene use. With such fluctuations of energy, cognitive ability, and motivation throughout the day it makes it hard to stick to one goal. My decision making abilities is the major obstacle in me finding a job now. I have problems sticking to one idea and running with it. Kind of a analysis paralysis thing going on.
Well, we'll see how the adderall thing works out. Hopefully the adderall will give me more tools to work with here. Perhaps better concentration to help with my decisions... time will tell.
Posted by dazedandconfused on October 2, 2004, at 14:45:47
In reply to Re: coffee helps, where do I go from here? Iris2, posted by Optimist on October 2, 2004, at 13:01:45
Optimist,
I don't know if you mentionined this already, but your symptoms all sound very much like ADD (which the adderall should be helpful for).Just my 2 cents
Posted by iris2 on October 2, 2004, at 14:55:21
In reply to Re: coffee helps, where do I go from here? Iris2, posted by Optimist on October 2, 2004, at 13:01:45
It would appear that something like adderal that improves concentration is what you are looking for. You seem to have energy and some focus . Perhaps the adderal will improve the focus. That is one of the symptoms it is for. I need both energy ( I am very lethargic) and focus and concentration. I have a difficult time getting out of bed in the morning. No energy to do anything even though I want to and have a lot of guilt about it. I cannot focus and everything including responding to an email takes me a long time to do. So I am never sure what combination of meds to take. Unfortunately I cannot take the ones I really need because I have interstitial cystitis which makes it impossible for me to take most meds. So I think it is my lot in life to just suffer through it. I try to make it just a little better when I can. For instance I am able to take a little Amisulpride. It makes me so I am not suicidal all the time and occationally get up the motivation and energy to do something, Whether it be vacuming my home or walking the dogs. Unfortunately it does not much improve the anhedonia so I do not get much enjoyment out of what I actually get myself to do. The best is a sence of occomplishment. Things are always this way. I guess I am unloading because the past two or three days have been particularly diffficult. I have no idea why. It is almost 4 o'clock and I have not showered dressed or walked my dogs yet. I was supposed to cycle with my father at 10:30. He had to cancel but I was going to anyway. So now another say is almost over and I have not even gotten dressed yet. I just want to cry.
Sorry about the unloading. You just make me a bit jeolous I guess. But not in a bad way . Iam glad you are doing as good as you are.
I think adderal would help me a lot but I know i cannot take those stimulants because of my bladdr. I ws thinking of trying either Strattera or mirapex. Not sure which one I should try?
Thanks,irene
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