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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 11 of 11. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by btnd on February 23, 2004, at 9:57:45
Considering this study:
http://deprenyl.info/Deprenyl/deprenyl-27.htm
it means that combination of Selegiline (other names: L-Deprenyl/Deprenyl/Jumex) with Phenylalanine - should work for 90% of depressed people. Is it possible ????? Has anyone tried such combination? Please post your experiences with either:
1) Selegiline alone (mention the dose)
2) Selegiline with Phenylalanine (mention the doses please)There are also other studies at deprenyl.info which show anti-depressant effect (although not quite stunning as "90% success") of Selegiline.
Posted by Chairman_MAO on February 23, 2004, at 11:03:30
In reply to Works in 90% of depressions??? (Selegiline + Ph.), posted by btnd on February 23, 2004, at 9:57:45
I have tried selegiline (10-15mg/day) with cacao capsules, which provided phenethylamine. I found that 6-12 capsules/day along with the selegiline provided a mood lift comparable to amphetamine. I once took 20 capsules and it felt like I was on speed, but without the adrenergic effects (phenethylamine is a dopamine releaser). Unfortunately, there is no commercial source that I'm aware of for phenethylamine, and the cacao capsules were not standardized.
L-phenylalanine also provides an antidepressant effect, but I found it to be too agitating, presumably because it's converted first into NE before dopamine, and the conversion to dopamine is rate-limited at that. Phenethylamine, by contrast, is a dopamine releaser, normally rapidly degraded by MAO-B, which selegiline inhibits. AM-PHET-AMINE means alpha-methyl-phenethylamine.
Have you ever tried eating a large quantity of high-quality dark chocolate on selegiline? Or taking a lot of cacao capsules (I used Nature's Way brand). You'll see what I'm talking about.
Posted by dingbat on February 25, 2004, at 6:53:31
In reply to Re: Works in 90% of depressions??? (Selegiline + Ph.) » btnd, posted by Chairman_MAO on February 23, 2004, at 11:03:30
Hi Chairman
Thanks for your interesting post. Please could you tell me more about cacoa capsules. What is this? Is phenethylamine the same as 'PEA'?. Like you, I also don't enjoy/tolerate the noradrenergic effects of DLPA or LPA, so if there's a way(s) of cirumventing this I'd be keen to hear more from you and perhaps try out your strategy?
Warm Regards
Dingbat
Posted by btnd on February 25, 2004, at 11:39:37
In reply to What is cacoa? » Chairman_MAO, posted by dingbat on February 25, 2004, at 6:53:31
> Hi Chairman
>
> Thanks for your interesting post. Please could you tell me more about cacoa capsules. What is this? Is phenethylamine the same as 'PEA'?.
Yes I believe PEA=phenethylamine, but the study was done on PHENYL-ALANINE. (which is an amino-acid, and the cheapest source I found was at beyond-a-century.com)
Posted by dingbat on February 25, 2004, at 12:21:55
In reply to Re: What is cacoa? » dingbat, posted by btnd on February 25, 2004, at 11:39:37
Thank you for the reply ... I understand the studies were done using dlPA or lPA. Arnold Fox wrote a pretty good book on Phenylalanine and mentions the it is involved in some way with the production of PEA (sorry, can't recall exact details).
ANYWAY ... what I would really like to know about from you is: WHAT IS CACOA?
I look forward to your reply.
Yours truly
Dingbat
Posted by PoohBear on February 25, 2004, at 13:11:42
In reply to Re: What is cacoa? ATT Chairman MAO, posted by dingbat on February 25, 2004, at 12:21:55
Cacao is Portuguese for chocolate.
Tony
> Thank you for the reply ... I understand the studies were done using dlPA or lPA. Arnold Fox wrote a pretty good book on Phenylalanine and mentions the it is involved in some way with the production of PEA (sorry, can't recall exact details).
>
> ANYWAY ... what I would really like to know about from you is: WHAT IS CACOA?
>
> I look forward to your reply.
>
> Yours truly
> Dingbat
Posted by dingbat on February 25, 2004, at 13:36:41
In reply to Re: What is cacoa? ATT Chairman MAO, posted by PoohBear on February 25, 2004, at 13:11:42
Thanks Pooh! I have just finished researching this "mystery" substance ... only to find it's my dear friend: chocolate (by another name). In case anyone is interested, www.biopsychiatry.com has some interesting articles on chocolate and related topics (e.g., PEA, theobromine).
In my country "Cacao" is usually called chocolate or spelled 'cocoa'.
Regards
Dingbat
Posted by Chairman_MAO on February 25, 2004, at 16:53:14
In reply to Re: What is cacoa? » dingbat, posted by btnd on February 25, 2004, at 11:39:37
Hector Sabelli did some investigation on l-phenylalanine, and then moved onto phenethylamine. There have been no double-blind, placebo controlled studies on this topic because everyone already knows it would work beautifully and the drug companies that sponsor most studies know they could never patent it.
If I had some money and the wherewithal to obtain pure phenethylamine, I would drop Wellbutrin and immediately switch to selegiline + PEA. One night I took 10mg of selegiline sublignually along with about 25g of raw cacao/cocoa powder. All I can say is that it was just as good--yet cleaner than--amphetamine for mood-elevating purposes. There was also a distinct amphetamine-like crash after it wore off about 4 hours later.
Try it, it will work. And the term "cocoa" originated from a misspelling of cacao.
Sustained antidepressant
effect of PEA replacement
by
Sabelli H; Fink P; Fawcett J; Tom C
Rush University and the Center for
Creative Development, Chicago, Illinois, USA.
J Neuropsychiatry Clin Neurosci, 1996 Spr, 8:2, 168-71ABSTRACT
Phenylethylamine (PEA), an endogenous neuroamine, increases attention and activity in animals and has been shown to relieve depression in 60% of depressed patients. It has been proposed that PEA deficit may be the cause of a common form of depressive illness. Fourteen patients with major depressive episodes that responded to PEA treatment (10-60 mg orally per day, with 10 mg/day selegiline to prevent rapid PEA destruction) were reexamined 20 to 50 weeks later. The antidepressant response had been maintained in 12 patients. Effective dosage did not change with time. There were no apparent side effects. PEA produces sustained relief of depression in a significant number of patients, including some unresponsive to the standard treatments. PEA improves mood as rapidly as amphetamine but does not produce tolerance.
Posted by Dr. Bob on February 25, 2004, at 19:56:29
In reply to Re: What is cacoa? » btnd, posted by Chairman_MAO on February 25, 2004, at 16:53:14
> Hector Sabelli did some investigation on l-phenylalanine, and then moved onto phenethylamine...
I'd like to redirect follow-ups regarding alternative treatments to Psycho-Babble Alternative. Here's a link:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/alter/20040225/msgs/317694.html
Thanks,
Bob
Posted by dingbat on February 26, 2004, at 7:53:08
In reply to Redirect: What is cacoa?, posted by Dr. Bob on February 25, 2004, at 19:56:29
DEAR Dr BOB - WHY ARE YOU REDIRECTING THIS TO PB-ALTERNATIVE? HAVE YOU NOT NOTICED THAT WERE DISCUSSING PEA/dlPA AS AN AUGMENTOR OF SELEGILINE WHICH IS A PHARMACEUTICAL AND NOT AN 'ALTERNATIVE'? I CAN SEE HOW THIS DISCUSSION COULD BE ARGUED TO 'BELONG' TO *BOTH* PB AND PB-ALTERNATIVE. HOWEVER, I DON'T BELIEVE IT TO BE A PURELY 'ALTERNATIVE' TOPIC. IT'S QUITE LIKELY THAT YOU WILL FIND THESE KINDS OF 'MIXED' DISCUSSIONS CROPPING UP MORE AND MORE (e.g., using prescription pharmaceuticals and augmenting them with 'alternative' substances).
JUST A THOUGHT ...
Yours truly
Dingbat
Posted by Dr. Bob on March 4, 2004, at 8:07:16
In reply to Re: Redirect: What is cacoa? » Dr. Bob, posted by dingbat on February 26, 2004, at 7:53:08
> WHY ARE YOU REDIRECTING THIS TO PB-ALTERNATIVE? ... I DON'T BELIEVE IT TO BE A PURELY 'ALTERNATIVE' TOPIC.
I agree, but I'd like even partly alternative topics be discussed there. Mainly because it's already so busy here. Thanks,
Bob
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