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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 16 of 16. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by zeugma on December 24, 2003, at 15:46:22
I'm concerned that although the low dose of clonazepam I'm taking (.25 mg/day) is helping my social anxiety, and general anxiety too, it is causing fatigue, need for excessive sleep, and weakening the effect of the other meds I take. I have been drinking tons of coffee to stay awake lately and I have not needed to do that in a long time. I feel that with my nervous system, a depressant is not going to help long term. I was pretty desperate when I started clonazepam, and it definitely has been working- maybe now I should reduce the dosage and see if that helps my energy and mood? I think tomorrow I will reduce it to .125 which seems like a ridiculously low doseage but obviously I am sensitive to these things.
On a general note, I think my depression/ADD gas a lot to do with dysregulated arousal systems- i.e. when my depression is in in full force I can't get any restorative sleep because I constantly have hypnagogic halucinations and intrusions of waking consciousness into sleep, while conversely when awake I often feel like I'm dreaming, I find it impossible to properly guide my attention to the salient features of the environment (inattentive ADD). I feel like the clonazepam, unlike the other meds I'm taking, is pushing sleep and waking closer together which is the last thing I need.
or maybe it's just the holidays that have me depressed?
Or some combination of the two?
Posted by linkadge on December 24, 2003, at 17:24:43
In reply to clonazepam concerns, posted by zeugma on December 24, 2003, at 15:46:22
If you can afford it, try drinking green tea or green tea extract. Although possibly practical, green tea extract has significant affinity for benzodiazipine receptors, but at the same time is a norepinephrine reputake inhibitor. Very alerting yet calming.
Linkadge
Posted by zeugma on December 24, 2003, at 18:21:49
In reply to Re: clonazepam concerns, posted by linkadge on December 24, 2003, at 17:24:43
> If you can afford it, try drinking green tea or green tea extract. Although possibly practical, green tea extract has significant affinity for benzodiazipine receptors, but at the same time is a norepinephrine reputake inhibitor. Very alerting yet calming.
>
> Linkadge
Thanks Linkadge for the suggestion; I found some green ginger tea in my kitchen cabinet and I'm on my second cup :)
Posted by Viridis on December 24, 2003, at 22:02:29
In reply to clonazepam concerns, posted by zeugma on December 24, 2003, at 15:46:22
This is getting into the alternative stuff so may be redirected, but I'll just add re: green tea that one of key components that seems to be calming (and actually works, for me at least) is the amino acid L-theanine. You can buy L-theanine supplements pretty inexpensively, and there's quite a bit of discussion about it on the PBabble Alternative Medicine board.
Regarding clonazepam -- have you been taking it for long? I found it a bit sedating at first, but that side effect completely disappeared after a couple of weeks of daily use and now I don't even notice that I've taken it, except for the relief from anxiety. Of course, we all react differently, but a common pattern with benzos like clonazepam is that the negative side effects tend to wear off while the anxiolytic effects remain.
Posted by zeugma on December 25, 2003, at 0:45:12
In reply to Re: clonazepam concerns » zeugma, posted by Viridis on December 24, 2003, at 22:02:29
> This is getting into the alternative stuff so may be redirected, but I'll just add re: green tea that one of key components that seems to be calming (and actually works, for me at least) is the amino acid L-theanine. You can buy L-theanine supplements pretty inexpensively, and there's quite a bit of discussion about it on the PBabble Alternative Medicine board.
>
> Regarding clonazepam -- have you been taking it for long? I found it a bit sedating at first, but that side effect completely disappeared after a couple of weeks of daily use and now I don't even notice that I've taken it, except for the relief from anxiety. Of course, we all react differently, but a common pattern with benzos like clonazepam is that the negative side effects tend to wear off while the anxiolytic effects remain.
I started taking clonazepam on November 7th. I had just begun a demanding new job at that time and the K was remarkably helpful- in fact, lifesaving- in allowing me to function in a situation that was highly anxiety-provoking.The negative effects that I'm feeling, though, are depression, fatigue, and poorer sleep quality than I was experiencing before. So what I'm hoping is that I can retain the 'lesson' of the clonazepam- i mean the way it actually seemed to make me perceive people in a different, less threatening light- without having to keep taking it. I'm going to try .125 mg tomorrow to see if that improves my mood and energy level.
Posted by KellyD on December 25, 2003, at 23:03:53
In reply to Re: clonazepam concerns, posted by zeugma on December 25, 2003, at 0:45:12
I'm suppose to be taking a self imposed hiatus from the board, so don't tell anyone I'm here... ha, ha.
Seriously, being a fairly long time user (~2yrs) of LOW dose K, I will tell you I have gone periods of time and needed only .125 mgs per day. I stay within a range .125 - .5 per day. Now, some will say that's subtherapeudic and if that's all one is taking you don't need it... well, for me, I disagree, it's what works for me and it's how I use it.
I will say, while most of the time it doesn't make me tired and slightly lethergic, there are times it does or something does. Some will also submit that that is another sign the K isn't needed. Again, for me, I disagree... I'm basing my findings on what happens if I discontinue... my anxiety returns... I don't consider it "withdrawal"... it is simply the disorder I must put "in order".
I hope maybe this info will help. I wanted you to know at least one person takes THAT low a dosing. You know yourself and I know you'll work this out as what's best for you.
Take care.... and yes, holidays are not a good time for MOST folks, despite what greeting card companies want us to believe.
Best,
Kelly
Posted by zeugma on December 25, 2003, at 23:29:19
In reply to Re: clonazepam concerns, posted by KellyD on December 25, 2003, at 23:03:53
> I'm suppose to be taking a self imposed hiatus from the board, so don't tell anyone I'm here... ha, ha.
>
> Seriously, being a fairly long time user (~2yrs) of LOW dose K, I will tell you I have gone periods of time and needed only .125 mgs per day. I stay within a range .125 - .5 per day. Now, some will say that's subtherapeudic and if that's all one is taking you don't need it... well, for me, I disagree, it's what works for me and it's how I use it.
>
> I will say, while most of the time it doesn't make me tired and slightly lethergic, there are times it does or something does. Some will also submit that that is another sign the K isn't needed. Again, for me, I disagree... I'm basing my findings on what happens if I discontinue... my anxiety returns... I don't consider it "withdrawal"... it is simply the disorder I must put "in order".
>
> I hope maybe this info will help. I wanted you to know at least one person takes THAT low a dosing. You know yourself and I know you'll work this out as what's best for you.
>
> Take care.... and yes, holidays are not a good time for MOST folks, despite what greeting card companies want us to believe.
>
> Best,
> Kellythank you so much for your post, Kelly. I have been having a rough day....I felt a strong need to isolate myself after a hectic week: a friend's birthday, several holiday parties, NOT the easiest thing for someone with Avoidant Personality Disorder to cope with. Then there's another weakness of mine: I ate tons of chocolate over the past 2 days, partly induced to do so by nerves: the upshot has been a tension headache and queasiness. I took .125 this morning and about half an hour ago took another quarter pill. I was able to eat a PBJ after that and feel a little better.
As i said before, K is remarkably effective for social anxiety. I actually had little anxiety during the most stress-provoking episode, the aforementioned friend's b'day where there were some people I hadn't seen in a long time: I was able to relax and socialize in a way I never was able to before, despite the fact that I've been completely avoiding alcohol. What actually makes me nervous is not the social contact itself, but the conflict with my desire to AVOID others as much as possible. I was so hopeful that the clonazepam would help with this avoidance, that I could finally try to date a girl without getting an anxiety attack, not to mention hold down a job that requires a lot of social contact (I've been fired from many jobs in the past, because of inability to deal with people, and I was determined not to let it happen this time: so far it hasn't!).
I'm hoping the depression and fatigue is due to the stress of the holiday season and the fact that I've had time on my hands to worry about everything.
Posted by zeugma on December 25, 2003, at 23:48:01
In reply to Re: clonazepam concerns, posted by zeugma on December 25, 2003, at 23:29:19
Posted by KellyD on December 26, 2003, at 0:02:03
In reply to Re: clonazepam concerns, posted by zeugma on December 25, 2003, at 23:29:19
thank you so much for your post, Kelly. I have been having a rough day....I felt a strong need to isolate myself after a hectic week: a friend's birthday, several holiday parties, NOT the easiest thing for someone with Avoidant Personality Disorder to cope with. Then there's another weakness of mine: I ate tons of chocolate over the past 2 days, partly induced to do so by nerves: the upshot has been a tension headache and queasiness. I took .125 this morning and about half an hour ago took another quarter pill. I was able to eat a PBJ after that and feel a little better.
~~~Sometimes that isolation thing is pretty normal. When I'm just overwhelmed, I do the same. In regard to the chocolate, I so relate... tons and tons of late and my body is letting me know it, too. I'm sorry things have been rough.~~~
As i said before, K is remarkably effective for social anxiety. I actually had little anxiety during the most stress-provoking episode, the aforementioned friend's b'day where there were some people I hadn't seen in a long time: I was able to relax and socialize in a way I never was able to before, despite the fact that I've been completely avoiding alcohol. What actually makes me nervous is not the social contact itself, but the conflict with my desire to AVOID others as much as possible. I was so hopeful that the clonazepam would help with this avoidance, that I could finally try to date a girl without getting an anxiety attack, not to mention hold down a job that requires a lot of social contact (I've been fired from many jobs in the past, because of inability to deal with people, and I was determined not to let it happen this time: so far it hasn't!).
~~~ I can understand conflict a bit as you describe it. I was a social, social being and I'm not sure I will ever be as I was before the issues with excess, toxic anxiey... but for me, I'm not so sure I want to return to the level I was. It's strange and hard to describe, but this feels more like "me", the before felt strained and pushed. As far as your interactions, you will get to where you want to be. ~~~
I'm hoping the depression and fatigue is due to the stress of the holiday season and the fact that I've had time on my hands to worry about everything.
~~~ Very likely things will improve as we get back to our routines and get this "joyful" time past us. I know I will, although, this was one of the better times in comparision to the past few years. Last year was one of the times I had tried to discontinue the K (wasn't THAT stupid, at the holidays??) I tried to tough it out, but it was horrible. This year, MUCH better. I finally realized I was getting in my own way of getting better by not using a treatment that works for me... it was a BIG step and I'm rather proud of finally figuring it out.~~~~
~~~ Again, Best,
Kelly
Posted by KellyD on December 26, 2003, at 0:09:40
In reply to also had tons of caffeine which hasn't helped (nm), posted by zeugma on December 25, 2003, at 23:48:01
While I know I've gotten it in the chocolate diet I've been on..... my java junkie days are shot.... and they were glorious and amazing... the amount I did consume.
Now, I can't do it without the anxiety stuff rearing it's nasty head. Ah, I do miss it though....sigh!
Posted by cybercafe on December 26, 2003, at 3:56:33
In reply to clonazepam concerns, posted by zeugma on December 24, 2003, at 15:46:22
> I'm concerned that although the low dose of clonazepam I'm taking (.25 mg/day) is helping my social anxiety, and general anxiety too, it is causing fatigue, need for excessive sleep, and weakening the effect of the other meds I take. I have been drinking tons of coffee to stay awake lately and I have not needed to do that in a long time. I feel that with my nervous system, a depressant is not going to help long term. I was pretty desperate when I started clonazepam, and it definitely has been working- maybe now I should reduce the dosage and see if that helps my energy and mood? I think tomorrow I will reduce it to .125 which seems like a ridiculously low doseage but obviously I am sensitive to these things.
>
> On a general note, I think my depression/ADD gas a lot to do with dysregulated arousal systems- i.e. when my depression is in in full force I can't get any restorative sleep because I constantly have hypnagogic halucinations and intrusions of waking consciousness into sleep, while conversely when awake I often feel like I'm dreaming, I find it impossible to properly guide my attention to the salient features of the environment (inattentive ADD). I feel like the clonazepam, unlike the other meds I'm taking, is pushing sleep and waking closer together which is the last thing I need.
>
> or maybe it's just the holidays that have me depressed?
>
> Or some combination of the two?
>
>
wow.. i'm taking 2 mg of clonazepam twice a day... fortunately parnate helps me get up on time... and ritalin also helps me stay awake... we'll see when i get a job (maybe i'll drop the morning dose) ...... to answer your question... no i'm not really sleepy on 2 mg of clonazepam, though i used to be sleepy on .5 mg a few years back ... maybe abilify is also helping? i chose only activating drugs for mood stability/ADD/depression so i could take benzos and still concentrate...
Posted by zeugma on December 26, 2003, at 14:40:27
In reply to Re: clonazepam concerns, posted by cybercafe on December 26, 2003, at 3:56:33
> > I'm concerned that although the low dose of clonazepam I'm taking (.25 mg/day) is helping my social anxiety, and general anxiety too, it is causing fatigue, need for excessive sleep, and weakening the effect of the other meds I take. I have been drinking tons of coffee to stay awake lately and I have not needed to do that in a long time. I feel that with my nervous system, a depressant is not going to help long term. I was pretty desperate when I started clonazepam, and it definitely has been working- maybe now I should reduce the dosage and see if that helps my energy and mood? I think tomorrow I will reduce it to .125 which seems like a ridiculously low doseage but obviously I am sensitive to these things.
> >
> > On a general note, I think my depression/ADD gas a lot to do with dysregulated arousal systems- i.e. when my depression is in in full force I can't get any restorative sleep because I constantly have hypnagogic halucinations and intrusions of waking consciousness into sleep, while conversely when awake I often feel like I'm dreaming, I find it impossible to properly guide my attention to the salient features of the environment (inattentive ADD). I feel like the clonazepam, unlike the other meds I'm taking, is pushing sleep and waking closer together which is the last thing I need.
> >
> > or maybe it's just the holidays that have me depressed?
> >
> > Or some combination of the two?
> >
> >
>
>
> wow.. i'm taking 2 mg of clonazepam twice a day... fortunately parnate helps me get up on time... and ritalin also helps me stay awake... we'll see when i get a job (maybe i'll drop the morning dose) ...... to answer your question... no i'm not really sleepy on 2 mg of clonazepam, though i used to be sleepy on .5 mg a few years back ... maybe abilify is also helping? i chose only activating drugs for mood stability/ADD/depression so i could take benzos and still concentrate...
>How is Parnate for ADD? I'm very curious about this one but there is little data on MAOI's for ADD. Theoretically though the rise in NE and DA would be good for this disorder.
I consider Strattera, nortriptyline, and buspirone to be 'activating,' in the sense that i generally feel more awake when I take these meds. I am having a very hard time now with excessive sleep. (I didn't have this problem before the holidays, so I'm hoping this is only temporary and will abate when I go back to work.) How does Parnate compare to Ritalin in terms of 'activation'?
Abilify seems like the most interesting of the AP's. Isn't that one mostly a 5HT-1A agonist like buspirone? Does it also help with anxiety? It should have an AD effect too, right?
Posted by cybercafe on December 27, 2003, at 3:03:43
In reply to Re: clonazepam concerns, posted by zeugma on December 26, 2003, at 14:40:27
> How is Parnate for ADD? I'm very curious about this one but there is little data on MAOI's for ADD. Theoretically though the rise in NE and DA would be good for this disorder.i guess parnate is ok for ADD, but mine was very bad and i *definately* could not get by on parnate alone... perhaps a mild case
> I consider Strattera, nortriptyline, and buspirone to be 'activating,' in the sense that i generally feel more awake when I take these meds.
yeah it's strange because parnate tends to make me feel consistently whereas ritalin is only temporary.... ritalin did nothing for my oversleeping but parnate even at a low dose kicked butt ...
>I am having a very hard time now with excessive sleep. (I didn't have this problem before the holidays, so I'm hoping this is only temporary and will abate when I go back to work.) How does Parnate compare to Ritalin in terms of 'activation'?
tough question... i think ritalin is more powerful but more short lived... and i also worry about it causing anxiety... parnate seemed a bit more comforting (e.g. social interaction)... but at the same time.... i could sit and wait and be patient on ritalin but not on parnate
parnate is good for depression, anxiety, oversleeping, libido, weight loss (of course concentration is related to depression right?)
ritalin is good for concentration, and depression (somewhat)
> Abilify seems like the most interesting of the AP's. Isn't that one mostly a 5HT-1A agonist like buspirone? Does it also help with anxiety? It should have an AD effect too, right?
Posted by cybercafe on December 27, 2003, at 3:07:32
In reply to Re: clonazepam concerns, posted by zeugma on December 26, 2003, at 14:40:27
> Abilify seems like the most interesting of the AP's. Isn't that one mostly a 5HT-1A agonist like buspirone? Does it also help with anxiety? It should have an AD effect too, right?
i like it because it makes me want to do things (zyprexa made me want to sit still) ... i don't think it helps with anxiety.. in fact it may cause anxiety ... the AD effect, if present, is not pronounced...
Posted by Siraris on December 27, 2003, at 4:19:20
In reply to Re: clonazepam concerns, posted by cybercafe on December 27, 2003, at 3:07:32
I have been taking 1 mg of Clonazepam for 7 years. I have had sleeping issues for years though, I think even before the clonaz (If it continues I am seeing a neuroligist in March for it). I don't know if it's Clonazepam or another issue (lack of motivation or something I WISH I could figure it out).
As for ADD, I used to take Ritilan/Adderall but they caused me more anxiety, and I stopped taking ADD meds altogether... now I am noticing that I am not functioning as well, and I'm starting to think that maybe it's because I haven't taken an ADD drug in years... I am going to try Strattera again I think, to see how it goes.
I tried weaning off my Clonazepam this week to see what happened, and I was miserable. I went back up to my 1 mg dose and felt WONDERFUL today. I don't plan on getting off, as I don't deal well without it. This is definitely one of the best anxi-panic/anxiety drugs on the market.
Posted by Dr. Bob on December 27, 2003, at 22:46:28
In reply to Re: clonazepam concerns, posted by linkadge on December 24, 2003, at 17:24:43
> If you can afford it, try drinking green tea or green tea extract...
I'd like to redirect this thread to Psycho-Babble Alternative. Here's a link:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/alter/20031218/msgs/293885.html
Thanks,
Bob
This is the end of the thread.
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