![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 7 to 31 of 191. Go back in thread:
Posted by HIBA on August 27, 2003, at 0:07:02
In reply to Re: withdrawl from Klonopin, posted by shadows721 on August 26, 2003, at 21:27:39
So, If klonopin or similar benzos work for a person, still he needs to be arbitrarily recruited for antidepressant therapy, because benzos are simply a temporary fix. My question is what drugs are not a temporary fix in psychiatric practice ? Have any doc cured anxiety through antidepressant therapy ?
It is sad however, the myth over the addiction and tolerance potential of benzos still remain. This will remain untill a pharmaceutical giant comes forward with a novel benzodiazepine drug with patent protection. At the end of the day, it is all about making money.Nothing else.
HIBA
Posted by KellyD on August 27, 2003, at 7:24:32
In reply to Re: withdrawl from Klonopin » shadows721, posted by HIBA on August 27, 2003, at 0:07:02
My anxiety symptoms and the inability to function with those symptoms are far more scary to me than dependence to a med that takes them away. After trials with SSRI's that were terrible, I'll stick with what has worked for me. I try to be understanding of other's experiences, everyone must find their own "temporary fix" (and yes, THAT is what it truly IS - treatment vs. cure), and, if we do ----- we're the lucky ones.
Posted by McPac on August 27, 2003, at 23:59:49
In reply to I agree, HIBA, posted by KellyD on August 27, 2003, at 7:24:32
You have an awesome way with words!
Posted by silmarilone on August 28, 2003, at 1:23:41
In reply to Re: withdrawl from Klonopin, posted by shadows721 on August 26, 2003, at 21:27:39
That's simply not true. Every drug, including SSRI's do the same thing. They poop out. AND have far worse side effects than benzos, and are far worse for you. For many people, Klonopin long term on the same dose has worked, and if it's for a lifetime, so be it? There's no difference besides the MONEY factor in prescribing newer, less effective drugs for anxiety or bipolar such as SSRIs. I and many otheres have been on maintenance klonopin for many years with no increase in dose, and a stable, lower anxiety level enought to function.
> I was on Klonopin for 5 years. I took it two times a day. I got physicially addicted to it. I realized that, because I had convulsions when a doctor abruptly took me off of it to perform some tests. I weaned myself off of it. It took me 3 years. Since then, my anxiety has returned. I suffer from PTSD. I am now taking an antidepressant to help reduce my symptoms.
>
> My advice to you is to lean on another medication that will help you. Give the new medication time to help you. Antidepressants don't kick in like Klonopin. They are sometimes very hard to adjust to in the beginning of treatment.
>
> Xanax, Klonopin, and Ativan are all in the same family. These are great drugs for a temporary fix. They are not something to live on for life.
> The body will eventually become use to a particular dosage and will need more and more of the drug to get that calming feeling again.
Posted by KellyD on August 28, 2003, at 8:06:38
In reply to I agree, HIBA, posted by KellyD on August 27, 2003, at 7:24:32
I appreciate your compliment. I've read post by you before and you're good at expressing yourself, too.
Kelly
Posted by shadows721 on August 28, 2003, at 19:41:05
In reply to Re: withdrawl from Klonopin » shadows721, posted by HIBA on August 27, 2003, at 0:07:02
It is SAD that there are not medications out there that help those of us who suffer from extreme depression and anxiety without serious side effects and withdrawal.
My post was directed at my OWN personal experience with Klonopin. I like many others thought I was NOT physically addicted, because I took my little pills every day for years. I like many others did still feel some effect. However, it was not quite as a effective as it was when I 1st started takening it. It wasn't until I was abruptly taken off of them by a physician that I had convulsions. I had no idea such a horrible experience would happen to me within 4 days of no Klonopin after being on it for years.
It is a fact that these drugs are physically addictive. The body becomes dependent on them. I am a living fact. I had another physican switch me to zoloft and the withdrawals were absolutely hell on Earth. I had to get back on Klonopin and cut the pill down over a long period of time. Any PDR and all written well researched data is clear on benzo. Benzo's have to be tapered when discontinued. This is very serious. My friend had a grand mal seizure at the wheel of her car when she abruptly quit takening Xanax. She had been on it for 3 years.
Yes, these drugs work! But, they should not be looked upon lightly when discontinuing them. Tolerance does happen. How long is very individual.
The reason why I suggested an antidepressant is that I did not have the withdrawal like that of Klonopin when I discontinued or switched to another med. Therefore, I would never suggest benzo's as a 1st choice; unless, it was on a temporary basis. Also, many of us that have anxiety will have depression associated with it. Some times it is hard to figure what came 1st.
For those that they chose to live on Benzo's for the rest of their lives, that is a personal choice and I am glad it still works for them. But, BEWARE when stopping these medications after long term usage. It needs to be under the close guidance of a physican.
Again, my comment was based on personal experience. I don't wish anyone to go through what I did.
Peace to all. I pray we all find the right med that helps us cope with the agony of living with mental suffering.
Thank you for your responses.
Posted by shadows721 on August 28, 2003, at 20:19:31
In reply to withdrawl from Klonopin, posted by sheebies on August 25, 2003, at 8:54:49
I am really sorry that you are experiencing these symptoms. It may be that your anxiety is breaking through and the Klonopin is not working as well as it did initially. I had horrible experiences like those you described as well. You can find a lot of information on Benzos. Here is a good website www.benzodiazepine.org. Usually the MD will taper the benzo and add an antidepressant to help you switch. Work closely with your doctor. I hope you will feel better real soon.
Peace to you.
Posted by cubbybear on August 28, 2003, at 21:44:30
In reply to Re: withdrawal from Klonopin, posted by shadows721 on August 28, 2003, at 19:41:05
> It is SAD that there are not medications out there that help those of us who suffer from extreme depression and anxiety without serious side effects and withdrawal.
I agree with everything you've said regarding the importance of tapering off benzo type drugs as well as anti-depressants. But I fully disagree with your above statement. There most certainly ARE meds for people who suffer from extreme depression and anxiety,and side effects can be mild or tolerable. As you yourself realize, there are great differences in efficacy and side effects for different individuals.
In your case, I would pin the blame for your suffering solely on your doctor who was such a jackass as to abruptly discontinue the Klonopin without a slow taper. That's like writing a presription for a grand mal seizure for sure.
>>
>
>
>
>
Posted by shadows721 on August 28, 2003, at 23:17:15
In reply to Re: withdrawal from Klonopin » shadows721, posted by cubbybear on August 28, 2003, at 21:44:30
Yep, that neurologist was using poor medical judgment.
It really seems that the med issue is one that is very personal to each of us. Everyone reacts to them so differently. It's about weighing which side effects can be tolerable.
Another issue for women of child bearing years is how will the meds affect an unborn baby. I read in one book that Klonopin has been linked to cleft palate defects in babies. So much research needs to be studied on that topic.
I have been reading that many docs are putting people on topomax and neurontin, but I haven't heard how well these meds are helping others. (Perhaps, this is in another thread.) I sure hope they are offering an safe and effective alternative for depression/anxiety.
Just my thoughts.
Thanks for the reply.
P.S. I like your name. :)
Posted by Viridis on August 29, 2003, at 0:18:28
In reply to Re: withdrawal from Klonopin, posted by shadows721 on August 28, 2003, at 19:41:05
A recent study (released by the World Health Organization, I think; I'll have to find the reference) ranked medications in order of difficulty of discontinuation. The hardest one to quit (on average) was the SSRI antidepressant Paxil. Effexor was close, and other SSRIs were in the top ten. Benzos like Klonopin were quite a bit further down the list, in the teens and twenties.
There are many drugs that, if discontinued suddenly after extended use, can cause serious withdrawal or worse. If you suddenly stopped, say, Effexor and had the kind of severe reaction some people have reported here (and elsewhere), would you say you were "addicted" to Effexor? It's strange how people use the term "addiction" so selectively (and usually incorrectly) for certain drugs like benzos, but not for others, especially those that are still under patent and heavily advertised.
I and many others have said this over and over again here, but addiction has a very specific meaning in medicine, involving obsession with a drug, continued and often escalated use despite negative consequences, and so on. This is not the same as dependence, which means that your body becomes accustomed to a substance (anything from insulin to Paxil to Xanax to heartburn medications) and reacts badly if the substance is suddenly withdrawn.
By your criteria, anyone who takes any medication for a substantial period of time and has a bad reaction if they stop it must be an addict. If so, there are an awful lot of "addicts" walking around who are "hooked" on blood pressure medications, anti-epilepsy drugs, and so on.
What makes responsible use of benzodiazepines any different ?
Posted by shadows721 on August 29, 2003, at 11:32:05
In reply to Re: withdrawal from Klonopin » shadows721, posted by Viridis on August 29, 2003, at 0:18:28
I feel that I am being attacked by using the words physical addiction. Physical addiction is different than an emotional and mental addiction.
It is ironic that you can buy Xanax, Klonopin, and valium on the street. But, they are not physically addictive? That's very odd.
The original post was how someone was suffering. Hardly anyone has addressed that. Instead they are choosing to attack me with words, because they don't like the terminology- "physical addiction". I have not seen anyone quote the medical research on Klonopin or it's horrible withdrawal. I am speaking from experience. What were the convulsions from? Why did the convulsions stop when the nurse gave me another Klonopin? Has anyone else here stopped using Klonopin for 5 years abruptly and seen what it will do?
I wasn't even talking about Paxil and Effexor. Yes, they too have horrible withdrawals. The body does become dependent. Again, I will use the term "physical addiction". Perhaps, you like physical dependency word instead. The words don't matter. People suffer from abrupt withdrawal. That was my point!
I suffer from depression and anxiety. I find this attack pointless and very sad. No one has addressed my feelings from having a horrible experience being abruptly taking off this med. The med in discussion is Klonopin!
I am not responding to anymore heartless attacks. Take your anger elsewhere. I am not your enemy. In fact, I am a fellow sufferer sharing my horrible experience. I pray that NO ONE goes thru what I did.
God Bless you all.
Posted by KellyD on August 29, 2003, at 14:26:59
In reply to Re: withdrawal from Klonopin, posted by shadows721 on August 29, 2003, at 11:32:05
I never intended to attack anyone. I was giving my experience also. I thought sharing different and alike experiences was what this was about. I stated before I respect others experiences and I do not doubt there are horror stories.
I'm outta this one.
Posted by Viridis on August 29, 2003, at 15:22:18
In reply to Re: withdrawal from Klonopin, posted by shadows721 on August 29, 2003, at 11:32:05
I'm very sorry about what you went through, and you're right -- choice of words doesn't change the seriousness of your experience in any way.
I was simply trying to make the point that many medications that are very helpful cause dependency and have to be discontinued slowly. It's unfortunate that people so often demonize one particular class of meds that improves the quality of life for so many people.
I hope that things are better for you now, and I didn't intend to direct any anger at you, just put things in perspective. Good luck!
Posted by mattdds on August 29, 2003, at 16:03:01
In reply to Re: withdrawal from Klonopin, posted by shadows721 on August 29, 2003, at 11:32:05
Hi there Shadows,
I feel for what you are going through, and whatever label you want to give it, I hope you recover from it.
I think the worst thing that has happened to you was the irresponsible, and highly uninformed decision your physician made by not tapering you off Klonopin. He abused his authority and made a dangerous decision, likely because he himself did not want to "deal with" managing your benzo prescription.
Nobody here will dispute the fact that *dependence* does indeed occur with long-term benzo use. Even the biggest advocates of benzos are aware of the dependence issue. All drugs have their drawbacks and this happens to be one very few that benzos have. Unfortunately, if informed consent is not followed, as it *certainly* was not in your case, there can be some severe consequences. But as long as simple precautions are followed, benzos are among the safest and most effective drugs used in psychiatry today.
I know it was not your intent to accuse anyone of being an addict. You were likely just using the verbage that your doctor had used with you. Most physicians are not aware of this distinction, especially non-psychiatrists. You could argue that the distinction is a matter of semantics. This has some truth to it, because if benzos are abruptly discontinued, there is indeed a severe withdrawal syndrome, as happens in addiction. However, people with true anxiety disorders that responsibly take benzodiazepines in no way whatsoever resemble "addicts", in the medical sense of the word. So you see, the distinction between "addicted" and "medically dependent" does become important to someone who needs this medication to function properly in life.
I don't think anyone was (intentionally) attacking you. People here (again, myself included) are quick to correct people in their use of the word "addiction" in benzodiazepines. Nobody likes to be made to feel like an "addict", especially when they are responsibly using a drug specifically made for their particular indication (anxiety). People here are eager to dispel this myth about benzos. What we forgot to do was demonstrate compassion for your situation before "correcting" you.
Hope you feel better,
Matt
Posted by Dr. Bob on August 29, 2003, at 17:16:53
In reply to Re: withdrawal from Klonopin » shadows721, posted by cubbybear on August 28, 2003, at 21:44:30
> In your case, I would pin the blame for your suffering solely on your doctor who was such a jack*ss
It's great to support others, but please don't use language that could offend people, thanks.
Bob
PS: Follow-ups regarding posting policies, and complaints about posts, should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration; otherwise, they may be deleted.
Posted by Dr. Bob on August 29, 2003, at 17:25:55
In reply to Re: withdrawal from Klonopin, posted by shadows721 on August 29, 2003, at 11:32:05
> No one has addressed my feelings from having a horrible experience being abruptly taking off this med.
>
> I am not responding to anymore heartless attacks. Take your anger elsewhere.I'm sorry you had a horrible experience, and don't feel people here have addressed it, but please be sensitive to their feelings and don't jump to conclusions about them or post anything that could lead them to feel accused. Thanks,
Bob
Posted by stjames on August 29, 2003, at 19:39:02
In reply to Re: withdrawal from Klonopin, posted by shadows721 on August 28, 2003, at 19:41:05
It seems in your case the problem was poor medical advice.
Posted by stjames on August 29, 2003, at 19:40:33
In reply to Re: withdrawl from Klonopin, posted by shadows721 on August 26, 2003, at 21:27:39
They are not something to live on for life.
The body will eventually become use to a particular dosage and will need more and more of the drug to get that calming feeling again.This is not the case for many people and has been well reported.
Posted by cubbybear on August 30, 2003, at 8:48:29
In reply to Re: please be civil » cubbybear, posted by Dr. Bob on August 29, 2003, at 17:16:53
> > In your case, I would pin the blame for your suffering solely on your doctor who was such a jack*ss
>
> It's great to support others, but please don't use language that could offend people, thanks.
>
> Bob
>
>Oh, no, now it's my turn. Offensive language? How can that word potentially be offensive when directed at an individual not even named or in the discussion?What it seems to come down to, Bob, is that you seem to have an extremely conservative, if not Puritanical view of what might be considered offensive speech. I invite others to share their views. I deeply resent being told to watch my language when four-letter words were NOT involved at all.
Posted by Viridis on August 30, 2003, at 18:14:48
In reply to Re: please be civil » Dr. Bob, posted by cubbybear on August 30, 2003, at 8:48:29
I have to agree with Cubbybear -- jack*** (I guess I'll put in asterisks, just to be safe) is part of everyday, civilized language, and few would consider it swearing. There's even a TV show (albeit an idiotic one) by this name. Since the term was not directed at the poster, anyone else on this board, or any named individual, I really don't see how it violates civility rules.
If Cubbybear had called the doctor a fool (which it sounds like he was), would that be considered civil?
Posted by Dr. Bob on September 1, 2003, at 2:12:58
In reply to Re: please be civil » Dr. Bob, posted by cubbybear on August 30, 2003, at 8:48:29
> How can that word potentially be offensive when directed at an individual not even named or in the discussion?What it seems to come down to, Bob, is that you seem to have an extremely conservative, if not Puritanical view of what might be considered offensive speech. I invite others to share their views. I deeply resent being told to watch my language when four-letter words were NOT involved at all.
First, sorry, I assumed it would be considered "often vulgar", and it turns out it isn't.
I may have an extremely conservative view, that's true. But words can be potentially offensive even if they're not directed at someone here. And even if they're not 4 letters long. Finally, other views are fine, but should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration, thanks.
Bob
Posted by HIBA on September 2, 2003, at 0:25:04
In reply to Re: withdrawal from Klonopin, posted by shadows721 on August 29, 2003, at 11:32:05
Like many others in this great forum, I also extend my sympathy to you. But the term "addiction" should not be taken lightly. When we use a word to define something, we should be careful enough to not to cause any harm to anyone with our words. The term "addiction" can be terrorizing to an already overanxious patient and the same reason will be sufficient for him to refuse the treatment. None of us really want to be called as "addicts". We would rather prefer to be "dependent"
If it is withdrawal symptoms that ensure a drug the label "addictive" almost all drugs deserve that label. Abrupt cessation of beta blockers will sometimes cause myocardial infarction which is fatal than a convulsion. But beta blockers are not being labelled as addictive drugs. If the availability of benzos on the streets is what make them addictive, viagra should also be an addictive drug.(the cheap version of viagra is also available on streets of many countries)
I will again stick to my statement. "It is mere medico-politics that plays behind benzo-controversy"
HIBA
Posted by shadows721 on September 3, 2003, at 2:09:24
In reply to The Term Addiction Shouldn't be Taken Lightly. » shadows721, posted by HIBA on September 2, 2003, at 0:25:04
It appears that my words that were taken from a neurologist affended many of you. I did not mean to in anyway. I wanted to help others from not going through withdrawals that included hallucinations, tremors, convulsions, itching, pain, and nausea (to name a few things that actually happened to me). I did not want to cause any arguments to cross between me or others about wording. I did not want to get into any analyzing of terminology, analyzing of medications, or political correctness.
I am just a person that suffers from complex PTSD. I was not born depressed and anxious, I became this way as a very young child. I have been trying to function. I have been on nearly all the medications listed in this discussion with the exception of viagra. I have had withdrawals and bizarre side effects with many of them. So, I send out prayers for all to find the right medication, physician, therapist, and treatments to help them function.
I just don't feel that my words made any sense and my original point was blurred in some way. I just wanted everyone to know that I really care and do not want others to suffer like I have. I'm sorry that I posted.
Thank you to all that have responded. I send everyone love and healing thoughts.
Posted by cubbybear on September 4, 2003, at 0:32:24
In reply to Sorry I posted, posted by shadows721 on September 3, 2003, at 2:09:24
Please do not feel sorry that you posted. I think that many people have learned a lot from your experiences and truly understand what you've been through. It's very common for words to be misconstrued, whether it's via E-mail, message boards, air mail letters, or even person-to-person speech. Misunderstandings happen all the time, and the main thing is that everyone gets to learn what is really meant, and that the misunderstanding gets resolved. I think I can speak for everyone on this board when I say that we wish you well and hope that you will continue to post whenever you feel the need. Unfortunately, there are negative elements in our society and loaded words in our language--words like "addiction" and "co-dependence", that are emotionally charged. The doctors and the media distort and misuse these words and so they get to be used like bullets for shooting people down. The area of benzodiazepines is highly controversial and that only adds to the problem.
So, again, it is my hope that you will continue to post and understand that no one here means any harm to you.
Personally, I am curious about your PTSD, how it happened (if you care to discuss it) and what medications were of help in any way. I do not suffer from this problem but I do know that millions of people in New York City have been traumatized by the events of 9/11 and need to be treated for PTSD as a result. I saw what the Vietnam War did to many soldiers who were lucky (?) enough to make it home and live their lives tormented by the visions of atrocities that occurred on the front lines. So long as the human race remains vulnerable to accidents, wars, bombings, violent deaths, and other traumas, we will have to deal with the after-effects. I believe that one of the most important things victims can do to ease their suffering is just to go on "venting" and talk about their feelings to sympathetic friends.
Posted by shadows721 on September 4, 2003, at 19:33:14
In reply to Re: Sorry I posted » shadows721, posted by cubbybear on September 4, 2003, at 0:32:24
I do appreciate interest cubby. I will try to explain my ailment (complex PTSD). Sorry this is so long.
I was sadistically abused in every means of the word by a very violent and psychotic relative. I had all the signs and symptoms of trauma as a child, but they went unnoticed by the family. This was due to I was such an obedient quiet child. I blocked out this person and his helpers of crime totally. (My MD as a child did not report the physical signs of abuse. I tried as an adult to get a copy of my chart after reading it and the next week my chart was unexplainably destroyed. The doctor died a 2 yrs later.)
My big problems began right after marriage - 3 months. This is typical. However, my symptoms were far from typical. I was having an internal sensation of extreme shaking and my vision changed. MD's were perplexed with my symptoms. I went for several years without the correct dx. I went thru the gambit of medications to try and treat these odd symptoms. Some of the initial meds included Buspar, tranxene, antivert, and a beta-blocker. The odd violent sensations and visual disturbances continued. The depression and anxiety were out of control. I did not even recognize my spouse at times. I was checked out by the best MD's in my area. They put me through every test known. Nothing showed up and the depression sank deeper.
One neurologist noted I had tremors and quickly put me on Klonopin. Klonopin worked like a bullet as far as calming the anxiety. It calmed it so much that I did not deal with the beast that lurked in the closet of my mind. After years of being on the drug, I built a tolerance and the beast of the past started playing Hell with my life again. The doctor immediately put me on Zoloft. I had a violent reaction of vomiting to it and that's when his partner took me off of it just to see what would happen. Oh, my God - the withdrawal was the worst thing that happened to me. When the doc saw what happened he called different drugs in to help- nortriptyline & elavil. I took myself (with research) in tapering off the Klonopin. (I do not recommend doing this alone. I did it, because my physican was not knowledgeable with PTSD and Klonopin withdrawal.)
The beast did not come out of the closet fully until I had a relaxation session with a therapist. My life as trying to become a nurse exploded and I decided to hospitalize myself. My therapist said she had not dealt with this level of abuse.
I got myself through a BSN nursing school with withdrawals and flashbacks and numberous other medication failures (like Serzone, paxil & Prozac, to name a few). No one knew what I was dealing with internally. Complex PTSD affected every aspect of my life - spirituality, sexually, mentally, physically, and emotionally. No one sees what I deal with, because I supposedly look great on the outside. The only thing they see is odd tremors.
My life is still in limbo. Ten years later, I still have body memories, auditory and visual memories almost all the time. They are very fragmented so it makes it really difficult to put together. I am currently trying Buspar (again) & neurontin. Buspar is hard to adjust to, but the family says they see a difference in me. I am in therapy and group therapy. I journal daily, do artwork, and exercise. (By the way, exercise and vitamins did not help the anxiety go away either.) I've read almost every book available on the subject, but my odd symptoms are not in them and they rage on...
Again, I have a MD unfamiliar with dissociation disorder and PTSD. I told him that I hear voices inside. He said that's a psychiatric red flag. I said that I know that I am not schizophrenic. He agreed and said how well I look. I did not go in to detail of the things I hear after that. This MD gives you 15mins to talk. It's just to see how the meds work.
I have tried acupuncture too. It works temporarily with the anxiety/depression, but it's very expensive. It is also very triggering to me, because part of my trauma was being bit repeatedly by snakes owned by the perp.
I am about to throw in the towel on nursing, because my problems are hindering me. I am more like a patient than a nurse. Do not feel that I can help others when I am in so much pain. Also, I am about to try EEG biofeedback as another method of treatment.
I am just an ordinary person that has experienced extremely unordinary abuse. I seek peace within and have been in contact with someone that helps people with spirtuality. All I have done is educated myself extensively and tried every method available to help me deal with the war no one talks about out loud. Complex PTSD is like being in war, but you do not remember who you were at war with or where it took place. The soldier within marches on inside without being noticed in the outside world.
Peace to all.
Shadows
Go forward in thread:
Psycho-Babble Medication | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.