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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 10 of 10. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Jasmine Neroli on August 25, 2003, at 22:49:30
A coupla weeks ago, I read with interest, the posts on Niacin (niacinimide/nicotinate?) and mood. I happened to be already taking "no- flush" niacin (actually Inositol Hexanicinate, also described as Inositol Nicotinate on the bottle). Says it delivers 500mg flush free Niacin and 120mg Inositol. Is this form as effective as the ones you were discussing?? If not, which do you recommend? And with what other supplements for maximum effect? ( other B's I take are B complex 100 and 100mg of B6 (p5p.co-enzyme version). I have Gen. anxiety disorder that developed into depression, but dropped my AD's 2 months ago. I seem to only have the anxiety left now, although I do get "low/lethargic" every now and then. Just started Klonipin for the anxiety, which works well. Just looking for something to lift my mood/energy be a bit more activating, but would like to do it with supplements. (I already take omega 3 & 6 efa's - fish oils, CLA, GLA (Primrose Oil), Alpha lipoic acid, C, E, DMAE, Gingko,and carnitine & glutamine for workouts. Oh yeah, calcium & magnesium!!!!!
Love to have your opinion. Thanks.
Posted by btnd on August 26, 2003, at 0:26:14
In reply to Larry H- and others....No-flush niacin question, posted by Jasmine Neroli on August 25, 2003, at 22:49:30
The name of the compound is - in US niacinamide, in Europe nicotinamide. This is the same supplement = vit.B3/no-flush niacin, just 2 different names.
In my case, nicotinamide *alone* didn't do very much, but:
1) when used with benzos at 500-1000 mg, it increased its sedative effects (especially with Valium)
2) I can't confirm it but I *think* it was helping my Enada NADH regime
3) russian studies from 80's show that nicotinamide is a better nootropic than piracetam, so one can consider nicotinamide a smart-drug
4) if you are using amphetamine-type stimulant (Adderall/Dexedrine) it is wise to use nicotinamide, because it prevents against ATP depletion and low energy levels ("crashing") when amphetamines wore offBrad
Posted by Ame Sans Vie on August 26, 2003, at 0:37:57
In reply to Larry H- and others....No-flush niacin question, posted by Jasmine Neroli on August 25, 2003, at 22:49:30
Brad's pretty much right on -- I've noticed the same effects he's described from taking niacinamide. All I can recommend is that TMG (trimethylglycine) or DMG (dimethylglycine) are most certainly worth a try, as is picamilon. Herbally, California poppy seems to be the most reliable anxiolytic (taking into consideration that kava kava is hepatotoxic).
Posted by btnd on August 26, 2003, at 0:59:48
In reply to Re: Larry H- and others....No-flush niacin question » Jasmine Neroli, posted by Ame Sans Vie on August 26, 2003, at 0:37:57
>...taking into consideration that kava kava is >hepatotoxic...
I've seen latest study on kava-kava which showed that it is not hepatotoxic after all. I'll try to find the study/document and put it on pbabble.
Posted by Ame Sans Vie on August 26, 2003, at 1:48:43
In reply to Kava-Kava not harmful to the liver » Ame Sans Vie, posted by btnd on August 26, 2003, at 0:59:48
Wow, no kidding? I'd be extremely interested to read that study... kava is, after all, such a fantastic treatment for so many ailments. I can't help but wonder though, why the jaundice and liver damage that have been reported (and quite commonly in Oceania where kava is consumed regularly) if kava is not hepatotoxic?
Posted by Larry Hoover on August 26, 2003, at 6:56:18
In reply to Larry H- and others....No-flush niacin question, posted by Jasmine Neroli on August 25, 2003, at 22:49:30
> A coupla weeks ago, I read with interest, the posts on Niacin (niacinimide/nicotinate?) and mood. I happened to be already taking "no- flush" niacin (actually Inositol Hexanicinate, also described as Inositol Nicotinate on the bottle). Says it delivers 500mg flush free Niacin and 120mg Inositol. Is this form as effective as the ones you were discussing?? If not, which do you recommend?
No, it's not as effective as niacinamide (nicotinamide). And, contrary to what btnd posted, they're not the same thing, either.
Inositol is a hexose sugar. It has six positions where it can form an ester with an organic acid. Nicotinic acid (niacin) can form such esters, and when the molecule has those six esters (forming inositol hexanicotinate), it's really quite bulky. Ordinarily, esters are broken down in the stomach, but I'd have to presume that the simple fact this one is so bulky slows that process down considerably (what is known as steric hindrance), and you get a slow trickle of nicotinic acid, rather than the flush-inducing effect of nicotinic acid in its free form.
A slightly different form of B3 is niacinamide. It binds to the same receptor complex as do benzos, and has some anxiolytic activity. It binds at a different place on the receptor than do benzos, so it doesn't interfere with that activity. Most people find that niacinamide and benzos complement each other's effects. You can take up to 500 mg niacinamide, four times a day.
Both nicotinic acid and niacinamide can be converted to the molecule NADH. It is a key component of the cellular energy production in mitochondria. I have found that using an NADH supplement (Enada NADH) has substantially improved my level of functioning. The dose must be carefully adjusted, as too much can lead to irritability and insomnia.
> And with what other supplements for maximum effect? ( other B's I take are B complex 100 and 100mg of B6 (p5p.co-enzyme version). I have Gen. anxiety disorder that developed into depression, but dropped my AD's 2 months ago. I seem to only have the anxiety left now, although I do get "low/lethargic" every now and then. Just started Klonipin for the anxiety, which works well. Just looking for something to lift my mood/energy be a bit more activating, but would like to do it with supplements. (I already take omega 3 & 6 efa's - fish oils, CLA, GLA (Primrose Oil), Alpha lipoic acid, C, E, DMAE, Gingko,and carnitine & glutamine for workouts. Oh yeah, calcium & magnesium!!!!!
You should eliminate any omega-6 fatty acids from your diet and supplementation, wherever you can do so. Omega-6 fatty acids counteract the benefits of omega-3's, and most people are getting 10 times too much omega-6 to begin with. Omega-6 fatty acids *are* essential (your body can't synthesize them), but the use of vegetable oils has become so ubiquitous that no one needs to supplement them, except those with extremely rare metabolic disorders.
I don't see any mention of the minerals zinc and selenium. More than half of all Americans are deficient in zinc. I'd recommeng 30 or 40 mg/day. Selenium status is a little more at issue (experts haven't decided what is optimal, let alone what is safe), but I'd suggest 200 mcg (micrograms)/day.
If you don't want to supplement selenium for the neuroprotective or mood effects, do it for the cancer-prevention ones....
Anticarcinogenic effects of selenium. Schrauzer GN in Cell Mol Life Sci 2000 Dec;57(13-14):1864-73 PMID: 11215513
"Selenium (Se) exerts its anticarcinogenic effects by multiple mechanisms. For maximal utilization of its cancer-protective potential, Se supplementation should start early in life and be maintained over the entire lifespan."Chemopreventive agents: selenium. Combs GF Jr, Gray WP in Pharmacol Ther 1998 Sep;79(3):179-92 PMID: 2526614
"The antitumorigenic activities have been associated with Se intakes that correct nutritionally deficient status in animals, as well as higher intakes that are substantially greater than those associated with maximal expression of the selenocysteine-containing enzymes. Therefore, it is proposed that while some cancer protection, particularly that involving antioxidant protection, involves selenoenzymes, specific Se metabolites, which are produced in significant amounts at relatively high Se intakes, also discharge antitumorigenic functions. According to this two-stage model of the roles of Se in cancer prevention, individuals with nutritionally adequate Se intakes may benefit from Se supplementation."> Love to have your opinion. Thanks.
Thanks for recognizing that all my thoughts should be considered to be opinion.
Best,
Lar
Posted by btnd on August 26, 2003, at 7:54:46
In reply to Re: Larry H- and others....No-flush niacin question » Jasmine Neroli, posted by Larry Hoover on August 26, 2003, at 6:56:18
> > A coupla weeks ago, I read with interest, the posts on Niacin (niacinimide/nicotinate?) and mood. I happened to be already taking "no- flush" niacin (actually Inositol Hexanicinate, also described as Inositol Nicotinate on the bottle). Says it delivers 500mg flush free Niacin and 120mg Inositol. Is this form as effective as the ones you were discussing?? If not, which do you recommend?
>
> No, it's not as effective as niacinamide (nicotinamide). And, contrary to what btnd posted, they're not the same thing, either.Yupp, I mistyped - what I meant was that niacinamide and nicotinamide are the same thing, and they are free of the niacin flushing side effect and niacin has different properties than niacinamide/nicotinamide.
My mistake.Take care,
Brad
Posted by Jasmine Neroli on August 26, 2003, at 13:25:20
In reply to Re: Larry H- and others....No-flush niacin question » Jasmine Neroli, posted by Larry Hoover on August 26, 2003, at 6:56:18
Thank you SO much for all the information! What a lot to comprehend, learn and apply! The biochemistry sytems of the human body never ceases to amaze me...all the inter-relatedness in particular, especially where it manifests itself in mood, thinking and personality! Fascinating. You do a great job of putting things together. I am on particular kick of trying to mesh hormones (particular neuro-hormones) into the neuro-chemical systems right now. As a menopausal woman, I KNOW that they are a key in my current condition. But in our bodies, nothing acts in isolation.
I digress....I will change to the B3 niacinimide and add the Zinc and Selenium and drop the Omega 6 FA's. We are all guinea-pigs, ha! Any recommendations for supplements/herbs that are a bit "activating" , but not anxiety provoking?
Maybe with a mild dopaminergic effect. Or will the supplements recommended balance neuro-transmitters in general?
Thanks again for taking the time to respond. I appreciate it.
Jas
Posted by djmmm on August 26, 2003, at 14:03:11
In reply to Re: Kava-Kava not harmful to the liver » btnd, posted by Ame Sans Vie on August 26, 2003, at 1:48:43
> Wow, no kidding? I'd be extremely interested to read that study... kava is, after all, such a fantastic treatment for so many ailments. I can't help but wonder though, why the jaundice and liver damage that have been reported (and quite commonly in Oceania where kava is consumed regularly) if kava is not hepatotoxic?
Kava extracts: safety and risks including rare hepatotoxicity.
Teschke R, Gaus W, Loew D.
Medical Department II, City Hospital Hanau, Teaching Hospital of the Johann Wolfgang Goethe University, Frankfurt/Main, Germany.
Kava is a perennial shrub native to some islands of the South Pacific and has been cultivated for centuries to prepare a psychoactive beverage from its rhizoma by means of extraction. Subsequently, kava extracts are commonly used as herbal anxiolytic drugs also in many other countries all over the world including European ones and the USA. Toxicological and clinical studies have shown that kava extracts are virtually devoid of toxic effects with the exception of rare hepatotoxic side effects reported in few patients. When assessed primarily by the British regulatory authority MCA but also by us, a critical analysis of the suspected cases (n = 19) in Germany reveals that only in 1 single patient a very probable causal relationship could be established between kava treatment and the development of toxic liver disease due to a positive result of an unscheduled reexposure test, whereas in another patient there might be a possible association. Out of the remaining 17 cases 12 patients were not yet assessable due to insufficient data and in 5 other cases a causal relationship was unlikely or could be excluded. The German regulatory authority might therefore well be advised to provide now additional information for those 12 patients with so far unsatisfactory data, facilitating a more appropriate assessment of causality. Nevertheless, in the meantime physicians and patients should continue to keep an eye on possible hepatotoxic side effects in the course of kava treatment, to stop the treatment alredy at first suspicion and to start with a careful diagnostic work up ruling out all other causes.
Posted by Ame Sans Vie on August 26, 2003, at 14:42:15
In reply to Re: Larry H- and others....No-flush niacin question » Larry Hoover, posted by Jasmine Neroli on August 26, 2003, at 13:25:20
Some great herbal supplements that are activating but not anxiogenic are Oriental ginseng, American ginseng, and eleuthero root (aka Siberian ginseng).
This is the end of the thread.
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