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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 18 of 18. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by ace on July 27, 2003, at 19:15:39
I can't believe this guys...and I might end up eating my own words. Please any hints what the heck is going on...here's my situation...
Now as you all know, a couple of months back I stopped Nardil for 17 days to try Anafranil- big mistake.
Now when I reinstated Nardil with 4 days it kicked back in BIG TIME at 60mg. This lasted 5 days. The next 21 days were devoid off the Nardil effect. Then it kicked back in- but only for 5 days. The next 12 days were again devoid of the Nardil effect. Then after starting Zyprexa, within 2 days, BANG! it kicked back in. This lasted 18 days and then depression came. I thought the depression was from Zyprexa so I stopped Zyprexa. 5 days after stopping Zyprexa and Nardil is not working still. Zyprexa has a 30 hour half life, so if Zyprexa really caused the depression, it should have past- there is only very, very, small bit off Zyprexa in me. Frankly, I don't know what is happening. Please, Please help me. I love Nardil, but before I stopped it for Anafranil it was consistent. Once I stopped the above probs have started.
I think I will change to Parnate- I am seeing my doc today. Maybe no washout either.
Is it possible Zyprexa worked against Nardil that much- most people say it adds to nardil.
Help please!!!''
Ace.
Posted by ace on July 27, 2003, at 19:17:49
In reply to Oh No!! Nardil troubles...NEED help now! Today!!!!, posted by ace on July 27, 2003, at 19:15:39
Posted by TJO on July 27, 2003, at 22:51:27
In reply to Oh No!! Nardil troubles...NEED help now! Today!!!!, posted by ace on July 27, 2003, at 19:15:39
Dear Ace,
The course of recovery from depression is not a steady slope. There are hills and valleys of brain activity as the system seeks a new balance in the presence of an altered, but *stable* environment.
- Scott
Posted by SLS on July 27, 2003, at 23:11:21
In reply to Re: Oh No!! Nardil troubles...NEED help now! Today!!!!, posted by TJO on July 27, 2003, at 22:51:27
> Dear Ace,
>
> The course of recovery from depression is not a steady slope. There are hills and valleys of brain activity as the system seeks a new balance in the presence of an altered, but *stable* environment.
>
>
> - Scott
I should take my own advice from time to time!
- Scott
Posted by cubbybear on July 27, 2003, at 23:15:25
In reply to Re: Oh No!! Nardil troubles...NEED help now! Today!!!!, posted by TJO on July 27, 2003, at 22:51:27
> Dear Ace,
>
> The course of recovery from depression is not a steady slope. There are hills and valleys of brain activity as the system seeks a new balance in the presence of an altered, but *stable* environment.
>
>
> - ScottScott-What you say is true but . . .we can't see into Ace's brain but I have a hunch that the Zyprexa may have had an adverse effect on the Nardil.
Ace, have you been diagnosed as schizophrenic or have acute bi-polar disorder? if not, then why did the doctor put you on Zyprexa? Is this drug definitely approved as a booster for MAOIs? It sounds to me like you might have screwed up your success with Nardil by adding Zyprexa. I'm not a doctor, but if I were you, I'd first make sure that the Zyprexa is indicated for your problem. This is all very complicated and you've got to talk to your doctor ASAP.
Posted by ace on July 27, 2003, at 23:54:30
In reply to Re: Oh No!! Nardil troubles...NEED help now! Today!!!! » TJO, posted by cubbybear on July 27, 2003, at 23:15:25
> > Dear Ace,
> >
> > The course of recovery from depression is not a steady slope. There are hills and valleys of brain activity as the system seeks a new balance in the presence of an altered, but *stable* environment.
> >
> >
> > - Scott
>
> Scott-What you say is true but . . .we can't see into Ace's brain but I have a hunch that the Zyprexa may have had an adverse effect on the Nardil.
> Ace, have you been diagnosed as schizophrenic or have acute bi-polar disorder? if not, then why did the doctor put you on Zyprexa? Is this drug definitely approved as a booster for MAOIs? It sounds to me like you might have screwed up your success with Nardil by adding Zyprexa. I'm not a doctor, but if I were you, I'd first make sure that the Zyprexa is indicated for your problem. This is all very complicated and you've got to talk to your doctor ASAP.Thanks for the response. We used the Zyprexa to try and wipe out my OCD. All my diagnosis are extreme anxiety problems. But this is my worry: The Zyprexa is now almost all out of my system and I still feel depressed. Maybe the Nardil has pooped out- that really makes me want to cry. Maybe I should keep going with Nardil and let it 'recover' from Zyprexa buggering it up- if Zyprexa truly did. But when I was on 2.5 Zyprexa the Nardil actually kicked in so I don't know what to think. I am really panicking, I thought the depression was from the Zyprexa and would pass, now I'm not sure.
Posted by temoigneur on July 28, 2003, at 0:35:55
In reply to Oh No!! Nardil troubles...NEED help now! Today!!!!, posted by ace on July 27, 2003, at 19:15:39
> I can't believe this guys...and I might end up eating my own words. Please any hints what the heck is going on...here's my situation...
>
> Now as you all know, a couple of months back I stopped Nardil for 17 days to try Anafranil- big mistake.
>
> Now when I reinstated Nardil with 4 days it kicked back in BIG TIME at 60mg. This lasted 5 days. The next 21 days were devoid off the Nardil effect. Then it kicked back in- but only for 5 days. The next 12 days were again devoid of the Nardil effect. Then after starting Zyprexa, within 2 days, BANG! it kicked back in. This lasted 18 days and then depression came. I thought the depression was from Zyprexa so I stopped Zyprexa. 5 days after stopping Zyprexa and Nardil is not working still. Zyprexa has a 30 hour half life, so if Zyprexa really caused the depression, it should have past- there is only very, very, small bit off Zyprexa in me. Frankly, I don't know what is happening. Please, Please help me. I love Nardil, but before I stopped it for Anafranil it was consistent. Once I stopped the above probs have started.
>
> I think I will change to Parnate- I am seeing my doc today. Maybe no washout either.
>
> Is it possible Zyprexa worked against Nardil that much- most people say it adds to nardil.
>
> Help please!!!''
>
> Ace.Andrew I wish I could give you a medical logarythm that would set you sailing, one thing I will say is hang in there. I wrote a prominent researcher in the states and he said there are some promising anxiolytics coming out in the next couple years. He said pregabalin which is to come out perhaps at the end of this year. He said he's seen AMAZING things with it and social phobia it's related to neurontin, but much more potent, and devoid of many of the side effects. Hang in there a lot of this crap will history one day in the not too distant future.
Ace, I'm really sorry to hear things are a bit unstable for you - I found that the best dosage of Nardil for myself is very low, (30mg), it never worked wonders, but it gets rid of most of the tormenting OCD thoughts. How ever I feel very dull, like a dog half put to sleep. I'm wondering about augmenting with Neurontin, but I have no idea what dose to start at, or what an appropriate dose to work up to would be any ideas?
nardil 30, zyprexa 10, klonopin 7.
Posted by cubbybear on July 28, 2003, at 0:36:44
In reply to My response....Don't know what's happening..., posted by ace on July 27, 2003, at 23:54:30
> Thanks for the response. We used the Zyprexa to try and wipe out my OCD. All my diagnosis are extreme anxiety problems. But this is my worry: The Zyprexa is now almost all out of my system and I still feel depressed. Maybe the Nardil has pooped out- that really makes me want to cry. Maybe I should keep going with Nardil and let it 'recover' from Zyprexa buggering it up- if Zyprexa truly did. But when I was on 2.5 Zyprexa the Nardil actually kicked in so I don't know what to think. I am really panicking, I thought the depression was from the Zyprexa and would pass, now I'm not sure.
I've got a few comments for you: first, I'm getting really ticked off over the evident new trend of pdocs to put people who are not psychotics on drugs (e.g. anti-schizophrenic meds) that are intended for psychotics. This might reflect the arm twisting that goes on between the drug companies and physicians. My problem is Major Depressive Disorder (with anxiety) and I had this jackass pdoc who wanted to give me a small amount of some anti-psychotic medicine when I was having no success with certain anti-depressants. I'm glad I refused. When I searched out what this other med was intended for and what the possible side effects were (e.g. tardive diskenesia), I couldn't believe it.
You have access to the Internet: get in the habit of checking out any and every drug that's suggested for you before you buy or take even one tablet. I'm not saying that the Zyprexa was definitely the *wrong* med; it just seems to me that taking an anti-psychotic med for an OCD problem doesn't seem right.
Next: Statistically, I think it's unlikely that your Nardil has actually pooped out. Time will tell but try not to panic (easier said than done).
Last: Until this situation gets resolved, can you get onto an anti-panic agent such as Xanax or Klonopin? Just make sure that whatever you take is safe with the mix of chemicals in your bloodstream right now. Hope this helps.
>
>
Posted by ace on July 28, 2003, at 0:57:28
In reply to Re: My response....Don't know what's happening... » ace, posted by cubbybear on July 28, 2003, at 0:36:44
Thanks so much Cubbybear and Ben.
Your response Cubbybear, where you said, 'I don't think its pooped out on you' gave me hope.
Just 30mins ago I took my Nardil 90mg (this time as a single dose). It's the first day of my uni and I really feel like crying. My behaviour is wierd: I stole a chocalate today, something I would never dream off doing. I feel really confused and unhinged, not up to study. Of course I have my Xanax on hand.
I find it really worrying that it;'s kicked in and then frittered away on 3 occassions. Last time I thought this was for real. It lasted 18 days and then the depression came. I thought it was Zyprexa. I am up to 10 weeks now back on Nardil. Tommorow morning the Zyprexa will be out of my system, I pray that Nardil comes back with its efficacy and stays.
But what is the baddest contradiction is this: the last time it kicked in I WAS ON the Zyprexa, so I don't know what to think. I just want to crawl into bed and cry. I hate this.
Please guys keep thinking how this could have happened (ie dopamine depletion from Zyprexa etc) I'm going home now. I feel a real mess.
Sorry Ben, I can't answer your question, I just can't think straight at the moment.
God Bless you Cubbybear, Ben, SLS and all who help me.
Nardil Champ is in bad way....
Ace.
Posted by SLS on July 28, 2003, at 8:23:50
In reply to My response....Don't know what's happening..., posted by ace on July 27, 2003, at 23:54:30
> > > The course of recovery from depression is not a steady slope. There are hills and valleys of brain activity as the system seeks a new balance in the presence of an altered, but *stable* environment.
> Maybe I should keep going with Nardil and let it 'recover' from Zyprexa buggering it up- if Zyprexa truly did. But when I was on 2.5 Zyprexa the Nardil actually kicked in so I don't know what to think. I am really panicking, I thought the depression was from the Zyprexa and would pass, now I'm not sure.
Ace, I doubt that the Zyprexa was responsible for anything except making you feel better for a little while. When used for depression, I think 5mg is a good dosage. I don't know what dosages are recommended for OCD or anxiety disorders. Many people show an initially good antidepressant response to Zyprexa only to see it fade after a week or two. That's not to say that it still doesn't have a place in your treatment regime. That it seems to have a true mood-stabilizing quality about it might make it useful.
Good luck.
- Scott
Posted by maxime on July 28, 2003, at 16:15:04
In reply to Oh No!! Nardil troubles...NEED help now! Today!!!!, posted by ace on July 27, 2003, at 19:15:39
Ace, you need to calm down. Freaking out isn't going to help the situation. Did something happen in the past few weeks that would make you more depressed than usual? Maybe it's not the meds.
I freaked out when I saw the title of your post "Emergency please help" - I thought you were going to kill yourself. Your reaction seemed a little over the edge.
No matter what AD you are on you are still going to experience ups and downs - just like everyone else, even those who do not suffer from depression.
I don't think switching to Parnate right away is the best answer. Look at other reasons (not med related) to why you might be feeling this way.
Ace, don't get me wrong. I am not trying to downplay what you are feeling right now. I care about what happens to you. And I am certainly not trying to be mean. I am just trying to add some perspective. I hope you can see that. :-)
So hang in there. Try to relax and a solution will present itself.
Breathe.
Maxime
Posted by maxime on July 28, 2003, at 16:35:07
In reply to Re: Oh No!! Nardil troubles...NEED help now! Today!!!!, posted by maxime on July 28, 2003, at 16:15:04
Ace, i am really confused. On July 27th you were talking about your study on Parnate and you were really animated about it. You sounded really positive and excited.
Then on the same day you frantically posted that your Nardil had pooped out.
How quickly did you switch from euphoria to depression? And do you remember if anything happened in that time frame. How did you feel? What did you feel? I am just wondering if you are a rapid cycling bipolar because it would explain a lot of what you are experiencing.
Any personality disorders? Histronic?
Maxime
> Ace, you need to calm down. Freaking out isn't going to help the situation. Did something happen in the past few weeks that would make you more depressed than usual? Maybe it's not the meds.
>
> I freaked out when I saw the title of your post "Emergency please help" - I thought you were going to kill yourself. Your reaction seemed a little over the edge.
>
> No matter what AD you are on you are still going to experience ups and downs - just like everyone else, even those who do not suffer from depression.
>
> I don't think switching to Parnate right away is the best answer. Look at other reasons (not med related) to why you might be feeling this way.
>
> Ace, don't get me wrong. I am not trying to downplay what you are feeling right now. I care about what happens to you. And I am certainly not trying to be mean. I am just trying to add some perspective. I hope you can see that. :-)
>
> So hang in there. Try to relax and a solution will present itself.
>
> Breathe.
>
> Maxime
Posted by lawrence S. on July 28, 2003, at 18:05:02
In reply to Re: My response....Don't know what's happening... » ace, posted by cubbybear on July 28, 2003, at 0:36:44
Ace,
What you are giong through is Zyprexa withdrawl. Give your system a few weeks to funtion without the Zyprexa and you will feel your old self again. Then Nardil will start kicking in.
I took that crappy Z. for a few days and upon stopping felt so incredibly screwed up.
When will those pdocs ever learn that AP's are so mind altering that they cause more harm than good?
Can you get any benzo's for a few weeks? They really helped me when I was feeling like you are!I wish I could send some in the mail for you but I've seen what jail is like and it's even worse than Z withdrawl! Keep the faith! Have a long talk with your Mom! That always helped me.
Lawrence.
Posted by djmmm on July 28, 2003, at 19:37:45
In reply to Oh No!! Nardil troubles...NEED help now! Today!!!!, posted by ace on July 27, 2003, at 19:15:39
> I can't believe this guys...and I might end up eating my own words. Please any hints what the heck is going on...here's my situation...
>
> Now as you all know, a couple of months back I stopped Nardil for 17 days to try Anafranil- big mistake.
>
> Now when I reinstated Nardil with 4 days it kicked back in BIG TIME at 60mg. This lasted 5 days. The next 21 days were devoid off the Nardil effect. Then it kicked back in- but only for 5 days. The next 12 days were again devoid of the Nardil effect. Then after starting Zyprexa, within 2 days, BANG! it kicked back in. This lasted 18 days and then depression came. I thought the depression was from Zyprexa so I stopped Zyprexa. 5 days after stopping Zyprexa and Nardil is not working still. Zyprexa has a 30 hour half life, so if Zyprexa really caused the depression, it should have past- there is only very, very, small bit off Zyprexa in me. Frankly, I don't know what is happening. Please, Please help me. I love Nardil, but before I stopped it for Anafranil it was consistent. Once I stopped the above probs have started.
>
> I think I will change to Parnate- I am seeing my doc today. Maybe no washout either.
>
> Is it possible Zyprexa worked against Nardil that much- most people say it adds to nardil.
>
> Help please!!!''
>
> Ace.Ace...we have discussed your med "swapping" in previous posts...You need to STOP adding meds, then discontinuing them ...
We forget that these meds effect our ENTIRE bodies, they arent specific to our brains. You are experiencing side-effects when you add a medication, and discontinuation effects when you discontinue the newly introduced med.
YOU have to give yourself time, and you can't expect a "cure" in the form of a pill.
I assure you that your problems will disappear if you quit adding/discontinuing meds.
Nardil, and all the rest of the meds will only get you to a certain poit. They are designed to alleviate symptoms to the point where YOU do the rest. There is no magic pill.
It is a NORMAL state to feel depressed sometimes, even on meds...(Im not talking about severe depression)
Overmedicating can cause more problems then depression itself sometimes.
Don't give up, and remember, sometimes less is more.
Posted by cubbybear on July 29, 2003, at 0:21:25
In reply to Re: Oh No!! Nardil troubles...NEED help now! Today!!!!, posted by djmmm on July 28, 2003, at 19:37:45
Posted by McPac on August 1, 2003, at 0:07:14
In reply to Oh No!! Nardil troubles...NEED help now! Today!!!!, posted by ace on July 27, 2003, at 19:15:39
Ace,
I've been away for a few days, just saw your message.
Ace---I would STAY with the Nardil!!!
When I went off a very successful drug a while ago (after being on it for years), it took me quite a long time on reintroduction of that drug before I once again felt its positive effects....it was VERY unsteady for quite some time, in fact after a few weeks I even wondered whether or not it was going to work again at all...in time the med DID have the same positive effects as the first time I was on it....it just took its sweet ol' time returning....before it returned in full force, I was feeling up and down (mostly down), as if the med had quit on me....but it didn't---it just needed its time to fully reestablish itself......I would DEFINITELY STAY with the Nardil........also, I KNOW what that OCD-panic-like state is like (It screams, "EMERGENCY, EMERGENCY!!!" and that OCD- fear is further trying to mess with your mind---telling you that the Nardil has quit, which only further throws your system out of whack....STICK with the Nardil Ace!! It WILL come back in full force....I'll be out of town for about a week again....stay with the Nardil brother! The Zyprexa was a 'monkey-wrench' thrown into your system...the introduction/discontinuation is BOUND to stir/things up....whether its half-life has run out or not, its effects put into motion reactions which can take some time for your body/brain to work out....STAY with the Nardil! You are STILL The Nardil Heavyweight Champion---the fight is a 12-rounder bro and you're only in the 8th Round.....give it some time, it will be back in full force!!!!!!
Posted by ace on August 1, 2003, at 2:40:07
In reply to Ace, ...NEED help now! Today!!!!, posted by McPac on August 1, 2003, at 0:07:14
> Ace,
> I've been away for a few days, just saw your message.
> Ace---I would STAY with the Nardil!!!
> When I went off a very successful drug a while ago (after being on it for years), it took me quite a long time on reintroduction of that drug before I once again felt its positive effects....it was VERY unsteady for quite some time, in fact after a few weeks I even wondered whether or not it was going to work again at all...in time the med DID have the same positive effects as the first time I was on it....it just took its sweet ol' time returning....before it returned in full force, I was feeling up and down (mostly down), as if the med had quit on me....but it didn't---it just needed its time to fully reestablish itself......I would DEFINITELY STAY with the Nardil........also, I KNOW what that OCD-panic-like state is like (It screams, "EMERGENCY, EMERGENCY!!!" and that OCD- fear is further trying to mess with your mind---telling you that the Nardil has quit, which only further throws your system out of whack....STICK with the Nardil Ace!! It WILL come back in full force....I'll be out of town for about a week again....stay with the Nardil brother! The Zyprexa was a 'monkey-wrench' thrown into your system...the introduction/discontinuation is BOUND to stir/things up....whether its half-life has run out or not, its effects put into motion reactions which can take some time for your body/brain to work out....STAY with the Nardil! You are STILL The Nardil Heavyweight Champion---the fight is a 12-rounder bro and you're only in the 8th Round.....give it some time, it will be back in full force!!!!!!McPac, if you were a female I would bed and wed you! You just made me feel so much more confident relaying your experience to me- it's been exactly like you said up and down- mostly down but. Thankyou so much man. I will stay with the Nardil and I might have to wait a couple of weeks or so yet.
But the way you described your situation was EXACTLY like mine dude- made me think HOPE IS HERE, because Nardil is still behaving like a bitch but a bit better at times.
I owe you one McPac, your a genius and a soul bro to me,
Ace- Andrew, Fighting to the end with Nardil!
Posted by McPac on August 1, 2003, at 14:10:50
In reply to McPac- you are a friggin' legend!!!!!!!!!!!!! » McPac, posted by ace on August 1, 2003, at 2:40:07
This is the end of the thread.
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