![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 27 to 51 of 62. Go back in thread:
Posted by noa on April 10, 2003, at 23:40:48
In reply to Re: Other fatty acids present..not Omega-3 ? » noa, posted by Ritch on April 10, 2003, at 22:58:03
If you look at the label, look first at the "Total Fat" (right under "Calories" and "Calories from Fat".
Total fat=4 g. Underneath that heading it says Saturated fat= 1 g, polyunsaturated fat=2 g, and monounsaturated fat= 1 g. Then it says Cholesterol 15 mg. THEN, it details the omega 3's: Total Omega-3 ==1600 mg. Under that heading---EPA 800, DHA 500 and "other" 300. This leaves 400 more mg of polyunsaturated fat of some kind, as well.
I believe it is the saturated fat and the monounsaturated, in that order, that settles in the cold temp of the fridge.
I have a question about homogonizing--why must it be done with warming/clarifying? Why can't I just shake up the jar to get a more or less evenly distributed suspension of the different fats? Of course it isn't a homogonized solution, but it does even it out long enough (plus some) to take my dose. It only settles after sitting a while.
Thanks.
Posted by Ritch on April 11, 2003, at 11:47:43
In reply to Re: Other fatty acids present..not Omega-3 ?, posted by noa on April 10, 2003, at 23:40:48
> If you look at the label, look first at the "Total Fat" (right under "Calories" and "Calories from Fat".
>
> Total fat=4 g. Underneath that heading it says Saturated fat= 1 g, polyunsaturated fat=2 g, and monounsaturated fat= 1 g. Then it says Cholesterol 15 mg. THEN, it details the omega 3's: Total Omega-3 ==1600 mg. Under that heading---EPA 800, DHA 500 and "other" 300. This leaves 400 more mg of polyunsaturated fat of some kind, as well.
>
> I believe it is the saturated fat and the monounsaturated, in that order, that settles in the cold temp of the fridge.
>
> I have a question about homogonizing--why must it be done with warming/clarifying? Why can't I just shake up the jar to get a more or less evenly distributed suspension of the different fats? Of course it isn't a homogonized solution, but it does even it out long enough (plus some) to take my dose. It only settles after sitting a while.
>
> Thanks.Hi Noa, I agree with you about the saturated/mono-unstaturated fat being the unwanted stuff that settles in the bottle. I didn't factor all of that in. Larry *did* mention a teaspoon of oil should weigh 4g (which does match the TOTAL FAT listed on the label). I don't see why you couldn't just shake the jar to get it stirred up OK. The trouble I've found is that the oil is so viscous at that temperature it is a little tough to get it shook up and the "lard" accumulates a lot towards the end of the bottle despite some agitation. I really do wish they could give us JUST the Omega-3's, period-the 2g instead of 4g and just indicate using a 1/2-teaspoon per dose instead. Now you have got me wondering about forcing it to solidify by further cooling and filtering off the liquid somehow. I just don't like taking a increasingly saturated fat dosage as the bottle gets used up because the lighter oil is floating in the top of the bottle. That's why I'm heating it and swirling it to clarity before dosing.
Posted by noa on April 11, 2003, at 18:02:28
In reply to Re: Other fatty acids present..not Omega-3 ? » noa, posted by Ritch on April 11, 2003, at 11:47:43
Next time I'm at my pharmacist, I am going to ask him about this.
Posted by McPac on April 11, 2003, at 23:30:50
In reply to Re: Other fatty acids present..not Omega-3 ? » noa, posted by Ritch on April 10, 2003, at 22:58:03
My question is at the END of this study.
Fish oil and margarine don't go together
ADELAIDE, AUSTRALIA. Fish oil supplements containing EPA (eicosapentaenoic acid) have an anti-inflammatory effect and may benefit people suffering from rheumatoid arthritis and psoriasis. This beneficial effect is significantly reduced when the diet is high in linoleic acid. A seven week controlled experiment involving 30 male volunteers was recently completed in Australia. The participants were given 1.6 gram EPA and 0.32 gram DHA (docosahexaenoic acid) daily. Half the volunteers were kept on a diet high in linoleic acid by using margarine as a spread and polyunsaturated oils for cooking. The other half used butter and olive oil which are low in linoleic acid. The experiment clearly showed that the incorporation of fish oil is enhanced by a diet containing butter and fish oil. Margarine and polyunsaturated oils had an inhibiting effect and should therefore be excluded from the diet in order to obtain maximum benefit from fish oil.
Cleland, Leslie G., et al. Linoleate inhibits EPA incorporation from dietary fish-oil supplements in human subjects. American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, Vol. 55, February 1992, pp. 395-99So, is the margarine and linoleic acid negating the fish oil benefits only for people taking it for psoriasis & rheumatoid arthritis (inflammatory problems) OR is the linoleic acid reducing the fish oil benefits for EVERYBODY taking fish oil for ALL conditions, such as depression?
Posted by Larry Hoover on April 12, 2003, at 7:12:39
In reply to Larry/Ritch/Noa, posted by McPac on April 11, 2003, at 23:30:50
> So, is the margarine and linoleic acid negating the fish oil benefits only for people taking it for psoriasis & rheumatoid arthritis (inflammatory problems) OR is the linoleic acid reducing the fish oil benefits for EVERYBODY taking fish oil for ALL conditions, such as depression?
Sounds like they mean everybody. I wish they were more explicit about what they meant by the word "incorporation".
Posted by bluedog on April 17, 2003, at 1:39:44
In reply to Re: Larry/Ritch/Noa, posted by Larry Hoover on April 12, 2003, at 7:12:39
> > So, is the margarine and linoleic acid negating the fish oil benefits only for people taking it for psoriasis & rheumatoid arthritis (inflammatory problems) OR is the linoleic acid reducing the fish oil benefits for EVERYBODY taking fish oil for ALL conditions, such as depression?
>
> Sounds like they mean everybody. I wish they were more explicit about what they meant by the word "incorporation".
>Hi Larry and others who have contributed to this thread!!
My question relates to GAMMA linoleic acid (GLA) found in Evening Primrose Oil (EPO).
I was firmly of the belief that consuming GLA in the presence of Fish oil (especially the EPA and DHA content therein) was actually beneficial as the fish oil has the effect of pushing the GLA found in EPO down a pathway whereby the body converted the GLA to ANTI-INFLAMMATORY prostaglandins in the human body.
Is my belief correct and does GLA in the presence of fish oil actually enhance the beneficial effects of both these oils (ie these oils act synergistically in the body)????
How does this relate to the Adelaide study cited above???
thanks guys
bluedog
Posted by bluedog on April 19, 2003, at 10:18:39
Hi Larry
I hope your feeling better. I'm relieved that you are still around:).
If you are well enough would you be able to answer the question I posed in the following thread. Bob must have archived my questions when you were flat on your back
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20030411/msgs/219974.html
If your not well enough yet to respond I'll understand completely and will probably pose this question in another week or so.
Thanks Larry
warm regards
bluedog
Posted by Larry Hoover on April 19, 2003, at 11:59:37
In reply to What about GLA found in Evening Primrose Oil?? » Larry Hoover, posted by bluedog on April 17, 2003, at 1:39:44
> > > So, is the margarine and linoleic acid negating the fish oil benefits only for people taking it for psoriasis & rheumatoid arthritis (inflammatory problems) OR is the linoleic acid reducing the fish oil benefits for EVERYBODY taking fish oil for ALL conditions, such as depression?
> >
> > Sounds like they mean everybody. I wish they were more explicit about what they meant by the word "incorporation".
> >
>
> Hi Larry and others who have contributed to this thread!!
>
> My question relates to GAMMA linoleic acid (GLA) found in Evening Primrose Oil (EPO).
>
> I was firmly of the belief that consuming GLA in the presence of Fish oil (especially the EPA and DHA content therein) was actually beneficial as the fish oil has the effect of pushing the GLA found in EPO down a pathway whereby the body converted the GLA to ANTI-INFLAMMATORY prostaglandins in the human body.
>
> Is my belief correct and does GLA in the presence of fish oil actually enhance the beneficial effects of both these oils (ie these oils act synergistically in the body)????That's my understanding.
J Nutr 2000 Aug;130(8):1925-31
Addition of eicosapentaenoic acid to gamma-linolenic acid-supplemented diets prevents serum arachidonic acid accumulation in humans.Barham JB, Edens MB, Fonteh AN, Johnson MM, Easter L, Chilton FH.
Department of Internal Medicine, Wake Forest University School of Medicine, Winston-Salem, NC 27157, USA.
Previous studies reveal that supplementation of human diets with gamma-linolenic acid (GLA) reduces the generation of lipid mediators of inflammation and attenuates clinical symptoms of chronic inflammatory disorders such as rheumatoid arthritis. However, we have shown that supplementation with this same fatty acid also causes a marked increase in serum arachidonate (AA) levels, a potentially harmful side effect. The objective of this study was to design a supplementation strategy that maintained the capacity of GLA to reduce lipid mediators without causing elevations in serum AA levels. Initial in vitro studies utilizing HEP-G2 liver cells revealed that addition of eicosapentaenoic acid (EPA) blocked Delta-5-desaturase activity, the terminal enzymatic step in AA synthesis. To test the in vivo effects of a GLA and EPA combination in humans, adult volunteers consuming controlled diets supplemented these diets with 3.0 g/d of GLA and EPA. This supplementation strategy significantly increased serum levels of EPA, but did not increase AA levels. EPA and the elongation product of GLA, dihomo-gamma-linolenic acid (DGLA) levels in neutrophil glycerolipids increased significantly during the 3-wk supplementation period. Neutrophils isolated from volunteers fed diets supplemented with GLA and EPA released similar quantities of AA, but synthesized significantly lower quantities of leukotrienes compared with their neutrophils before supplementation. This study revealed that a GLA and EPA supplement combination may be utilized to reduce the synthesis of proinflammatory AA metabolites, and importantly, not induce potentially harmful increases in serum AA levels.
The combination seems to go a long way in reducing the risk of myocardial infarction, as well.Am J Clin Nutr 2003 Jan;77(1):37-42
Effects of supplementation with fish oil-derived n-3 fatty acids and gamma-linolenic acid on circulating plasma lipids and fatty acid profiles in women.Laidlaw M, Holub BJ.
Department of Human Biology and Nutritional Sciences, University of Guelph, Canada.
BACKGROUND: Eicosapentaenoic acid (EPA), docosahexaenoic acid (DHA), and gamma-linolenic acid (GLA) have lipid-modifying and antiinflammatory properties. The effects of supplement mixtures of these fatty acids on plasma lipids and the fatty acid compositions of serum phospholipids have received little attention. OBJECTIVE: The objective was to determine the effects of different levels of GLA supplementation together with a constant intake of EPA plus DHA on the triacylglycerol-lowering effect of EPA plus DHA alone and on the fatty acid patterns (eicosanoid precursors) of serum phospholipids. DESIGN: Thirty-one women were assigned to 1 of 4 groups, equalized on the basis of their fasting triacylglycerol concentrations. They received supplements providing 4 g EPA+DHA (4:0, EPA+DHA:GLA; control group), 4 g EPA+DHA plus 1 g GLA (4:1), 2 g GLA (4:2), or 4 g GLA (4:4) daily for 28 d. Plasma lipids and fatty acids of serum phospholipids were measured on days 0 and 28. RESULTS: Plasma triacylglycerol concentrations were significantly lower on day 28 than on day 0 in the 4:0, 4:1, and 4:2 groups. LDL cholesterol decreased significantly (by 11.3%) in the 4:2 group. Dihomo-gamma-linolenic acid increased significantly in serum phospholipids only in the 4:2 and 4:4 groups; however, total n-3 fatty acids increased in all 4 groups. CONCLUSIONS: A mixture of 4 g EPA+DHA and 2 g GLA favorably altered blood lipid and fatty acid profiles in healthy women. On the basis of calculated PROCAM values, the 4:2 group was estimated to have a 43% reduction in the 10-y risk of myocardial infarction.
> How does this relate to the Adelaide study cited above???
>
> thanks guys
> bluedogI'm not sure what to make of the Adelaide study.
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on April 19, 2003, at 12:15:19
In reply to Larry/Ritch/Noa, posted by McPac on April 11, 2003, at 23:30:50
> My question is at the END of this study.
>
> Fish oil and margarine don't go together
> ADELAIDE, AUSTRALIA. Fish oil supplements containing EPA (eicosapentaenoic acid) have an anti-inflammatory effect and may benefit people suffering from rheumatoid arthritis and psoriasis. This beneficial effect is significantly reduced when the diet is high in linoleic acid. A seven week controlled experiment involving 30 male volunteers was recently completed in Australia. The participants were given 1.6 gram EPA and 0.32 gram DHA (docosahexaenoic acid) daily. Half the volunteers were kept on a diet high in linoleic acid by using margarine as a spread and polyunsaturated oils for cooking. The other half used butter and olive oil which are low in linoleic acid. The experiment clearly showed that the incorporation of fish oil is enhanced by a diet containing butter and fish oil. Margarine and polyunsaturated oils had an inhibiting effect and should therefore be excluded from the diet in order to obtain maximum benefit from fish oil.
> Cleland, Leslie G., et al. Linoleate inhibits EPA incorporation from dietary fish-oil supplements in human subjects. American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, Vol. 55, February 1992, pp. 395-99
>
> So, is the margarine and linoleic acid negating the fish oil benefits only for people taking it for psoriasis & rheumatoid arthritis (inflammatory problems) OR is the linoleic acid reducing the fish oil benefits for EVERYBODY taking fish oil for ALL conditions, such as depression?It would appear that linoleate intake is a strong determinant of EPA uptake and incorporation into phospholipids, but does not affect DHA. This is true for all people, I would think. It's quite obvious in the following study in rats, too.
Biochim Biophys Acta 1992 Dec 2;1165(2):194-200
Influence of an increased intake of linoleic acid on the incorporation of dietary (n-3) fatty acids in phospholipids and on prostanoid synthesis in rat tissues.
Raederstorff D, Moser U.
F. Hoffman-La Roche, Department of Vitamin and Nutrition Research, Basel, Switzerland.
We investigated whether the amount of dietary linoleic acid (LA) (as corn oil) influences the incorporation of dietary eicosapentaenoic acid (EPA) or docosahexaenoic acid (DHA) in tissue phospholipids and the prostanoid biosynthesis. Rats were fed four different levels of corn oil (at a total dietary fat level of either 2.5%, 5%, 10% or 20%); at each corn oil level, two groups of rats were supplemented with either EPA and DHA (200 mg/day) during 6 weeks, and compared with a group receiving oleic acid. The phospholipid fatty acid composition of liver, kidney and aorta showed, as expected, that the incorporation of EPA was highly suppressed by increasing the content of dietary linoleic acid in the diets. On the other hand, DHA was almost unaffected by the amounts of (n - 6) fatty acids in the diets. These results indicate that EPA levels but not DHA levels in tissue phospholipids were influenced by the competing dietary (n - 6) fatty acids. The tissue arachidonate content was similar under the various dietary linoleic acid conditions, but feeding EPA or DHA lowers the AA content. Moreover, the amount of dietary linoleic acid did not significantly influence the prostaglandin E2 (PGE2) production in stimulated aortic rings. However, PGE2 synthesis was significantly decreased in the groups treated with either EPA or DHA. Thromboxane B2 levels in serum followed a similar pattern. It is suggested that an increase of dietary (n - 3) PUFAs is more efficient to reduce (n - 6) eicosanoid formation than a decrease of dietary (n - 6) fatty acids.
Posted by Jaynee on April 19, 2003, at 12:30:23
In reply to If your better I want to revive this thread-LARRY!, posted by bluedog on April 19, 2003, at 10:18:39
Posted by bluedog on April 20, 2003, at 3:19:26
In reply to Recent article on essential fatty acids brain, posted by Jaynee on April 19, 2003, at 12:30:23
> http://www.cpa-apc.org/Publications/CJP/current/haag.pdf
Thankyou Jaynee
I've saved this article to my hard-drive for future reference.
This article confirms my belief and it's apparent that omega-6 acids do NOT actually reduce the effectiveness of fish oil and that that omega-3 and omega-6 do act synergistically in the human body and in the brain.
However the most important thing is that the RATIOS of omega-6 to omega-3 need to be addressed and too much of either of these EFA's may reduce the effectiveness of the other (ie an imbalance of what the body naturally requires). It's just that in the Western diet the ratio is out of whack and most of us get too much omega-6 and not enough omega-3. I think that the conclusions of the Adelaide study cited above in this thread need to be interpreted in this context and therefore the results should be interpreted with care.
I know this issue has come up before on the med board!!
warm regards
bluedog
Posted by bluedog on April 20, 2003, at 3:32:14
In reply to Re: What about GLA found in Evening Primrose Oil??, posted by Larry Hoover on April 19, 2003, at 11:59:37
> > How does this relate to the Adelaide study cited above???
> >
> > thanks guys
> > bluedog
>
> I'm not sure what to make of the Adelaide study.
>
> Lar
Thanks LarryIt seems you revived this thread after all. I would however like to link this thread to the following thread that I started down below.
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20030417/msgs/220599.html
Jaynee has given a link to a useful article on EFA's that I believe also addresses my questions>Would you agree???
warm regards
bluedog
Posted by Larry Hoover on April 20, 2003, at 9:56:32
In reply to Re: Recent article - Thankyou Jaynee » Jaynee, posted by bluedog on April 20, 2003, at 3:19:26
> > http://www.cpa-apc.org/Publications/CJP/current/haag.pdf
>
> Thankyou JayneeYes, thanks Jaynee.
> I've saved this article to my hard-drive for future reference.
>
> This article confirms my belief and it's apparent that omega-6 acids do NOT actually reduce the effectiveness of fish oil and that that omega-3 and omega-6 do act synergistically in the human body and in the brain.I don't see that the article says that at all. In fact, I think it's silent on the issue. The Adelaide study, and others in lab animals, show unequivocal inhibition of EPA uptake in the presence of linoleic acid. What effect that may have is unclear, but linoleic acid cannot go on to form signalling compounds (the leukotrienes, prostaglandins, et al) as it does not have double bonds separated by six positions, as do the PUFAs arichidonic, dihomogammalinolenic, EPA, DHA.
> However the most important thing is that the RATIOS of omega-6 to omega-3 need to be addressed and too much of either of these EFA's may reduce the effectiveness of the other (ie an imbalance of what the body naturally requires). It's just that in the Western diet the ratio is out of whack and most of us get too much omega-6 and not enough omega-3. I think that the conclusions of the Adelaide study cited above in this thread need to be interpreted in this context and therefore the results should be interpreted with care.The omega6:omega3 ratio is a non-specific comparison between classes or families of fatty acids. The Adelaide study addresses competition between single members of the classes. Linoleate intake is just one factor influencing the fatty acid metabolic parameters. The Adelaide study mentions margarine, but the abstract doesn't provide insight into the form the margarine takes (there are different types). If the margarine is the more typical hydrogenated vegatable oil form, then ingestion of trans-fatty acids becomes an uncontrolled variable. (The only way I'd know what was really going on is to read the whole paper.) That's why I think the rat study I posted shows a more clear picture of the effect; increases in linoleate are associated with decreases in EPA uptake. I don't see what that has to do with GLA.
> I know this issue has come up before on the med board!!
>
> warm regards
> bluedogI'll tack on your reference from the other thread. You said:
"Jaynee has given a link to a useful article on EFA's that I believe also addresses my questions.
Would you agree???"
Frankly, no I don't think so. It answers different question, IMHO. If there's a discrepancy in my thinking, try asking your questions again. The passage of time may have obscured what you're looking to have answered.
Lar
Posted by noa on April 20, 2003, at 10:56:49
In reply to Recent article on essential fatty acids brain, posted by Jaynee on April 19, 2003, at 12:30:23
Thanks for the article, Jaynee.
Posted by Larry Hoover on April 20, 2003, at 11:59:47
In reply to Re: GLA - see Jaynee's response in thread below! » Larry Hoover, posted by bluedog on April 20, 2003, at 3:32:14
Just meandering through some research about GLA, and found that bone density is correlated to GLA intake.
Prostaglandins Leukot Essent Fatty Acids 1995 Jul;53(1):13-9
The effect of different n-6/n-3 essential fatty acid ratios on calcium balance and bone in rats.
Claassen N, Coetzer H, Steinmann CM, Kruger MC.
Department of Physiology, Faculty of Medicine, University of Pretoria, South Africa.
Prostaglandins (PGs) are known to have various effects on bone metabolism. The supplementation of essential fatty acids (EFAs), the precursors of PGs, leads to increased intestinal calcium absorption and calcium balance. It is, however, not known whether increased calcium absorption and calcium balance will enhance the calcium content in bone. Male Sprague-Dawley rats (n = 40) aged 5-12 weeks were supplemented with EFAs. The main dietary EFAs, linoleic acid (LA) and alpha-linolenic acid (ALA) were administered in a ratio of 3:1 as a control group. The conversion of LA to ALA to the PG precursors is slow, with the first step, delta-6-desaturation being rate limiting. Fatty acids beyond this rate-limiting step, gamma-linolenic acid (GLA, n-6) and eicoapentaenioc acid (EPA, n-3), were administered to different groups in the ratios 3:1, 1:1 and 1:3 to explore the impact of different ratios of n-6 and n-3 EFAs. Intestinal calcium absorption (mg/24 h) increased by 41.5% in the 3:1 supplemented group, compared with the control group. The decrease in urinary calcium (mg/24 h) correlated with the increase in n-3 level. The calcium balance (mg/24 h) and bone calcium (mg/g bone ash) increased significantly in the 3:1 (41.5% and 24.7%) group, compared with the control. The increase in bone calcium might be attributed to an EFA-induced increase in circulating PGs. An increased synthesis of PGs acting on target bone cells, as well as changes in membrane fluidity, may underlie these observations.
Bone 1995 Apr;16(4 Suppl):385S-392S
Supplemented gamma-linolenic acid and eicosapentaenoic acid influence bone status in young male rats: effects on free urinary collagen crosslinks, total urinary hydroxyproline, and bone calcium content.Claassen N, Potgieter HC, Seppa M, Vermaak WJ, Coetzer H, Van Papendorp DH, Kruger MC.
Department of Physiology, Faculty of Medicine, University of Pretoria, Republic of South Africa.
The effect of different ratios of the prostaglandin precursors gamma-linolenic (GLA) and eicosapentaenoic (EPA) acids on bone status in growing rats measured as a function of free urinary pyridinium crosslinks and hydroxyproline levels was investigated. Male Sprague-Dawley rats were weaned onto an essential fatty acid deficient diet and from their fifth week, different groups of rats received a balanced, semisynthetic diet, supplemented with different ratios of GLA:EPA supplied as a mixture of evening primrose oil (EPO) and fish oil (FO). Controls were supplemented with linoleic (LA; sunflower oil) and alpha-linolenic (ALA; linseed oil) acids (3:1) or a commercially available rat chow. Animals were terminated at 84 days and femur length, ash weight, calcium content, free urinary pyridinium crosslinks (Pyd and Dpyd), total hydroxyproline (Hyp), and creatinine levels measured. Free urinary Pyd and Dpyd are good indicators of bone status and they correlated well with Hyp. Pyd and Dpyd excretion were significantly decreased in the higher GLA:EPA dietary groups and correlated well (r = 0.7) with Hyp levels. Concomitantly, bone calcium content increased significantly in the same dietary groups. These results suggest that diet supplementation with relatively high GLA:EPA ratios are more effective in inhibiting bone resorption than LA:ALA.
Also, GLA seems to beneficially affect glucose metabolism. This effect is apparently enhanced by co-administration of alpha-lipoic acid (no abstract for that).GLA apparently promotes leanness on eucaloric diets.
J Nutr 1994 Apr;124(4):469-74
Dietary gamma-linolenic acid-enriched oil reduces body fat content and induces liver enzyme activities relating to fatty acid beta-oxidation in rats.
Takada R, Saitoh M, Mori T.
Department of Animal Nutrition, National Institute of Animal Industry, Ibaraki-ken, Japan.
The objectives of this study were to examine the effects of dietary gamma-linolenic acid-enriched oil extracted from fungi on rat body composition and on the various enzyme activities relating to fat metabolism in the liver. The oil contained 25.3 g gamma-linolenic acid/100 g fatty acids. The levels of gamma-linolenic acid-enriched oil in the diets were 0, 1.5 and 4%, to give 0, 2.88 and 7.68 g gamma-linolenic acid/kg diet. The control diet contained 8% soybean oil. The rats were given free access to these diets for 4 wk. Body weight gain was less in the gamma-linolenic acid oil-fed groups than in the control group, although food intake was similar among the three groups. Absolute and relative carcass fat weights were significantly lower in the gamma-linolenic acid oil-fed groups than in the control group. Carcass protein and water contents were not different among the three groups, although values were slightly greater than controls in gamma-linolenic acid-fed groups when expressed relative to body weight. Plasma total cholesterol and free fatty acid concentrations generally were lower in the gamma-linolenic acid oil-fed groups than in the control group. In the liver, there were no significant differences in activities of malic enzyme and citrate cleavage enzyme among the three groups. However, the activities of carnitine palmitoyl-transferase and peroxisomal beta-oxidation were significantly higher in the gamma-linolenic acid oil-fed groups than in the control group. These results clearly demonstrate that dietary gamma-linolenic acid oil reduces body fat content and facilitates fatty acid beta-oxidation in the liver.
Posted by Viridis on April 20, 2003, at 16:31:21
In reply to Re: Recent article - Thankyou Jaynee, posted by Larry Hoover on April 20, 2003, at 9:56:32
I haven't read through all of this very carefully, but am I correct in inferring that supplementation with GLA (e.g., from evening primrose oil) appears likely to be beneficial, in addition to use of fish oil?
Posted by Larry Hoover on April 20, 2003, at 17:08:53
In reply to Summary please?, posted by Viridis on April 20, 2003, at 16:31:21
> I haven't read through all of this very carefully, but am I correct in inferring that supplementation with GLA (e.g., from evening primrose oil) appears likely to be beneficial, in addition to use of fish oil?
A better source is borage oil (near double the percentage of GLA).
The take-home message:
GLA is anti-inflammatory, helps regulate insulin sensitivity, enhances bone density, promotes hippocampal neuroplasticity, and may be the first word in a child's vocabulary. It works synergistically with fish oil, and with alpha-lipoic acid. So, I'd recommend taking all three (fish oil, borage/evening primrose/black currant seed oil, alpha-lipoic acid) together.
Posted by McPac on April 20, 2003, at 21:49:05
In reply to Re: Summary please?, posted by Larry Hoover on April 20, 2003, at 17:08:53
"So, I'd recommend taking all three (fish oil, borage/evening primrose/black currant seed oil, alpha-lipoic acid) together".
>>>>>>Could these other two 'ingredients', when taken with the fish oil, make the fish oil work better for depression/psychiatric conditions? I saw a liquid product that had the omega 3's, 6's & 9's all in it the other night at a health food store...but I was wondering if the 6's & 9's could somehow block or negate the fish oil effects?
Posted by Larry Hoover on April 20, 2003, at 22:23:51
In reply to Lar, Re: Summary please?, posted by McPac on April 20, 2003, at 21:49:05
> "So, I'd recommend taking all three (fish oil, borage/evening primrose/black currant seed oil, alpha-lipoic acid) together".
>
> >>>>>>Could these other two 'ingredients', when taken with the fish oil, make the fish oil work better for depression/psychiatric conditions?That's a possibility, but general health benefits certainly seem worth it, anyway. GLA apparently enhances neuroplasticity in the hippocampi, which is one the things needed to overcome depression.
>I saw a liquid product that had the omega 3's, 6's & 9's all in it the other night at a health food store...but I was wondering if the 6's & 9's could somehow block or negate the fish oil effects?
The 6's in that product (Udo's Oil?) are almost certainly dominated by linoleic acid. That one blocks some of the benefits of fish oil. I haven't seen anything about adverse interactions with the omega-9's.
I would bet that 99% of people (or more) already get quite enough omega-6's and omega-9's. The specific properties of the omega-6 GLA, and the general lack of it in the diet, make supplementation with it worthwhile. You're better off selecting the fatty acids you supplement than you are taking a blended oil like Udo's.
Lar
Posted by bluedog on April 20, 2003, at 22:24:25
In reply to Re: Summary please?, posted by Larry Hoover on April 20, 2003, at 17:08:53
> > I haven't read through all of this very carefully, but am I correct in inferring that supplementation with GLA (e.g., from evening primrose oil) appears likely to be beneficial, in addition to use of fish oil?
>
> A better source is borage oil (near double the percentage of GLA).
>
> The take-home message:
> GLA is anti-inflammatory, helps regulate insulin sensitivity, enhances bone density, promotes hippocampal neuroplasticity, and may be the first word in a child's vocabulary. It works synergistically with fish oil, and with alpha-lipoic acid. So, I'd recommend taking all three (fish oil, borage/evening primrose/black currant seed oil, alpha-lipoic acid) together.
>
>
LarryAm I correct in that the following can be added to your summary????
GLA must be taken TOGETHER with fish oil as GLA taken in isolation in the absence of fish oil is actually pushed down a pathway in the body that promotes it's conversion to INFLAMMATORY prostaglandins.
Larry I also have another question for you:):):).First a bit of background:-
I personally take GLA (as EPO) together with fish oil (6 capsules of 1000mg strength fish oil to give me 6g of fish oil per day which in turn gives me the recommeneded 1g of EPA per day) AND alpha lipoic acid (200mg per day). The EPO capsules I take are 1000mg capsules (cold pressed) that yield 100mg of GLA per capsule.
NOW my question is this:-
In the context of the above how many capsules of my EPO should I take per day. Is one capsule enough (ie 100mg of GLA) or should I take one (or 2 ore more) every time I take my fish oil (I take my fish oil in 3 divided doses of 2 capsules or 2000mg per dose to reach my target dose of 6g)? In other words has any research been done on the correct proportions per day of GLA to EPA and DHA to get the beneficial synergistic effects???
Thanks Larry
regards
bluedog
Posted by Larry Hoover on April 20, 2003, at 22:40:42
In reply to Summary please. GLA MUST be taken with fish oil? » Larry Hoover, posted by bluedog on April 20, 2003, at 22:24:25
> > > I haven't read through all of this very carefully, but am I correct in inferring that supplementation with GLA (e.g., from evening primrose oil) appears likely to be beneficial, in addition to use of fish oil?
> >
> > A better source is borage oil (near double the percentage of GLA).
> >
> > The take-home message:
> > GLA is anti-inflammatory, helps regulate insulin sensitivity, enhances bone density, promotes hippocampal neuroplasticity, and may be the first word in a child's vocabulary. It works synergistically with fish oil, and with alpha-lipoic acid. So, I'd recommend taking all three (fish oil, borage/evening primrose/black currant seed oil, alpha-lipoic acid) together.
> >
> >
>
>
> Larry
>
> Am I correct in that the following can be added to your summary????
>
> GLA must be taken TOGETHER with fish oil as GLA taken in isolation in the absence of fish oil is actually pushed down a pathway in the body that promotes it's conversion to INFLAMMATORY prostaglandins.Yes, that's true.
> Larry I also have another question for you:):):).
>
> First a bit of background:-
>
> I personally take GLA (as EPO) together with fish oil (6 capsules of 1000mg strength fish oil to give me 6g of fish oil per day which in turn gives me the recommeneded 1g of EPA per day) AND alpha lipoic acid (200mg per day). The EPO capsules I take are 1000mg capsules (cold pressed) that yield 100mg of GLA per capsule.
>
> NOW my question is this:-
>
> In the context of the above how many capsules of my EPO should I take per day. Is one capsule enough (ie 100mg of GLA) or should I take one (or 2 ore more) every time I take my fish oil (I take my fish oil in 3 divided doses of 2 capsules or 2000mg per dose to reach my target dose of 6g)? In other words has any research been done on the correct proportions per day of GLA to EPA and DHA to get the beneficial synergistic effects???
>
> Thanks Larry
> regards
> bluedogThe answer might surprise you. I've seen some research that puts the optimum ratio at 2:1 EPA:GLA. In other words, you'd need five EPO caps. Just to compare, you'd get about the same amount of GLA from 2 grams of borage oil.
Lar
Posted by bluedog on April 20, 2003, at 23:21:19
In reply to Re: Summary please. GLA MUST be taken with fish oil? » bluedog, posted by Larry Hoover on April 20, 2003, at 22:40:42
> > > > I haven't read through all of this very carefully, but am I correct in inferring that supplementation with GLA (e.g., from evening primrose oil) appears likely to be beneficial, in addition to use of fish oil?
> > >
> > > A better source is borage oil (near double the percentage of GLA).
> > >
> > > The take-home message:
> > > GLA is anti-inflammatory, helps regulate insulin sensitivity, enhances bone density, promotes hippocampal neuroplasticity, and may be the first word in a child's vocabulary. It works synergistically with fish oil, and with alpha-lipoic acid. So, I'd recommend taking all three (fish oil, borage/evening primrose/black currant seed oil, alpha-lipoic acid) together.
> > >
> > Larry
> >
> > Am I correct in that the following can be added to your summary????
> >
> > GLA must be taken TOGETHER with fish oil as GLA taken in isolation in the absence of fish oil is actually pushed down a pathway in the body that promotes it's conversion to INFLAMMATORY prostaglandins.
>
> Yes, that's true.
>
> > Larry I also have another question for you:):):).
> >
> > First a bit of background:-
> >
> > I personally take GLA (as EPO) together with fish oil (6 capsules of 1000mg strength fish oil to give me 6g of fish oil per day which in turn gives me the recommeneded 1g of EPA per day) AND alpha lipoic acid (200mg per day). The EPO capsules I take are 1000mg capsules (cold pressed) that yield 100mg of GLA per capsule.
> >
> > NOW my question is this:-
> >
> > In the context of the above how many capsules of my EPO should I take per day. Is one capsule enough (ie 100mg of GLA) or should I take one (or 2 ore more) every time I take my fish oil (I take my fish oil in 3 divided doses of 2 capsules or 2000mg per dose to reach my target dose of 6g)? In other words has any research been done on the correct proportions per day of GLA to EPA and DHA to get the beneficial synergistic effects???
> >
> > Thanks Larry
> > regards
> > bluedog
>
> The answer might surprise you. I've seen some research that puts the optimum ratio at 2:1 EPA:GLA. In other words, you'd need five EPO caps. Just to compare, you'd get about the same amount of GLA from 2 grams of borage oil.
>
> Lar
Thanks again Larry {I've lost count of the number of times I've thanked you and but I don't know how else to repay your patience with my questions :):):)}.I'll look at borage oil next time but I've already bought the EPO capsules. You've given the ideal amounts but I suppose that ANY GLA with fish oil is better than none. Right????
Because EPO is actually more expensive in my part of the world than fish oil supplements (see below) I think I'll take one EPO capsule every time I take my 2 fish oil capsules which will give me 3g of EPO to 6g of fish oil (or put another way 300mg of GLA to 1g of EPA) Taking into account cost considerations do you think this is a good compromise???
warm regards
bluedogP.S. (following on from above) Fish oil is cheap in my town. I can purchase 400 1000mg capsules for $24.95 Australian Dollars (I suppose this equates to about $15.00 US Dollars depending on the exchange rate at the time for the 400 capsules). This works out to 6 Australian cents per fish oil capsule. The EPO is actually more expensive and and the price is 400 1000mg capsules for $32.95 Australian Dollars (go figure?)
Posted by Larry Hoover on April 21, 2003, at 8:19:25
In reply to Re: GLA MUST be taken with fish oil? Thanks » Larry Hoover, posted by bluedog on April 20, 2003, at 23:21:19
> Thanks again Larry {I've lost count of the number of times I've thanked you and but I don't know how else to repay your patience with my questions :):):)}.Your manners won't let you not thank me. I understand.
> I'll look at borage oil next time but I've already bought the EPO capsules. You've given the ideal amounts but I suppose that ANY GLA with fish oil is better than none. Right????
Yes. If you'll recall the dose-ranging study of ethyl eicosapentaenoate (E-EPA) that determined that 1 gram/day of EPA was better than 2 grams/day, you can see that it may be possible to get too much (or it could mean that you need the DHA in fish oil too). Similarly, a dose-ranging study of GLA found that too much had little effect. In other words, there seems to be a dose ceiling, beyond which the benefits seem to taper off. That ceiling was somewhere between 2 and 4 grams/day of GLA.
> Because EPO is actually more expensive in my part of the world than fish oil supplements (see below) I think I'll take one EPO capsule every time I take my 2 fish oil capsules which will give me 3g of EPO to 6g of fish oil (or put another way 300mg of GLA to 1g of EPA) Taking into account cost considerations do you think this is a good compromise???
>
> warm regards
> bluedogAbsolutely. You'll certainly obtain benefits from both oils (though you may not see the benefits literally).
> P.S. (following on from above) Fish oil is cheap in my town. I can purchase 400 1000mg capsules for $24.95 Australian Dollars (I suppose this equates to about $15.00 US Dollars depending on the exchange rate at the time for the 400 capsules). This works out to 6 Australian cents per fish oil capsule. The EPO is actually more expensive and and the price is 400 1000mg capsules for $32.95 Australian Dollars (go figure?)
If you realized just how many evening primrose seeds gave up their future for each capsule of oil, you may find your surprise diminishing.
Lar
Posted by noa on April 21, 2003, at 12:16:34
In reply to Re: GLA MUST be taken with fish oil? Thanks, posted by Larry Hoover on April 21, 2003, at 8:19:25
I read about the research that found 1 gram of EPA effective, but not 2 grams. But when I found positive effect from the fish oil, my pdoc suggested I take more, based on his experience with other patients. And it turned out that I definitely felt increased improvement with more fish oil, despite what the study says. If I remember correctly, it was a small study, and I am sure more research is needed about fish oil anyway.
I now take about 2 tablespoons a day of fish oil, which gives about 4800 mg of EPA.
Posted by Ron Hill on April 21, 2003, at 13:44:37
In reply to Re: Yes but..., posted by noa on April 21, 2003, at 12:16:34
> I read about the research that found 1 gram of EPA effective, but not 2 grams. But when I found positive effect from the fish oil, my pdoc suggested I take more, based on his experience with other patients. And it turned out that I definitely felt increased improvement with more fish oil, despite what the study says. If I remember correctly, it was a small study, and I am sure more research is needed about fish oil anyway.
>
> I now take about 2 tablespoons a day of fish oil, which gives about 4800 mg of EPA.As chance would have it, I take the same brand of fish oil as Noa (i.e.; Carlson). I have experimented with my dose over the past year or so that I have been taking fish oil and, like Noa, I find added benefit as I increase the daily dose above and beyond the 1 g/day of EPA level.
I currently take three teaspoons (i.e.; one tablespoon) which contain 2400 mg EPA, 1500 mg DHA, and 900 mg of "other omega-3 fatty acids". I think I'd experience further benefits by taking even more, but this stuff is kind of spendee.
I've been buying the Carlson fish oil at a local nutritional store and I like to give them my business because they have a very helpful and knowledgeable staff. However, they charge $19.90 (US) for the 200 ml bottle. At my current three teaspoon dose, it costs me $1.50 per day. I'd like to increase the dose, but I think I need to shop around on the internet for a more competitive price.
Bottom line: For me, more is better.
-- Ron
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