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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 16 of 16. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by oracle on November 20, 2002, at 11:26:46
DDT and PCBs in cod liver oil
Recent collaborative studies have been carried out by Greenpeace Research Laboratories at Exeter University (UK) to analyse twenty two samples of fish oil. Seventeen of the samples (mostly cod liver oil) were obtained over the counter, marked as dietary supplements. This is apparently the first time that fish oils from retail outlets have been subject to independent scrutiny.
Twenty one of the samples were found to contain detectable residues of organochlorine pesticides including DDT and lindane, PCBs and hexachlorobenzene (HCB). Highest contamination involved PCBs. DDT was found in nearly all samples [at levels up to 148 µg/litre (parts per billion)] which are all below the limit specified by the US Food and Drug Administration. However, in the UK there are no specific limits set for pesticide residues for fish oils. The FAO Codex Alimentarius, (the international body which establishes maximum residue levels) appears to contain no recommendations for limits on organochlorine pesticides in fish oils, although oils derived from fish and marine mammals are recognised as a commodity group.
Greenpeace say that under certain circumstances, such as for therapeutic purposes, fish oil could contribute significantly to the dietary intake of PCBs and organochlorine pesticides. In addition, since the substances analysed in this research only form part of the possible persistent organochlorine pollutants in fish oil, other chemicals such as chlorinated dioxins, toxaphene, chlordane and heptachlor should be included in future in order to asses the full scope of the problem.MN Jacobs and PA Johnston, Greenpeace Research Laboratories, University of Exeter, EX4 4QE.
Posted by linkadge on November 20, 2002, at 12:08:24
In reply to Fish Oils contain DDT and PCB's, posted by oracle on November 20, 2002, at 11:26:46
There exist many processes that remove these
harmful chemicals from fish oil, molecular distillation just one - winterization is another, simply do a little research on the company makes your fish oil. 'Now' brand fish oil is very good quality.Linkadge
Posted by Larry Hoover on November 20, 2002, at 12:16:32
In reply to Fish Oils contain DDT and PCB's, posted by oracle on November 20, 2002, at 11:26:46
> DDT and PCBs in cod liver oil
> Recent collaborative studies have been carried out by Greenpeace Research Laboratories at Exeter University (UK) to analyse twenty two samples of fish oil. Seventeen of the samples (mostly cod liver oil) were obtained over the counter, marked as dietary supplements. This is apparently the first time that fish oils from retail outlets have been subject to independent scrutiny.The British Government has a food surveillance program that is unparalled elsewhere. They have been analyzing retail fish oils since 1994. I consider them to be independent. Their most recent report is at:
http://www.foodstandards.gov.uk/multimedia/pdfs/26diox.pdf
The Canadian government monitors bulk commodity imports of fish oil. Fish oil is a commodity, just like pork bellies. DDT, dioxins etc. are monitored. See:
http://www.inspection.gc.ca/english/anima/feebet/dioxe.shtml
> Twenty one of the samples were found to contain detectable residues of organochlorine pesticides including DDT and lindane, PCBs and hexachlorobenzene (HCB). Highest contamination involved PCBs. DDT was found in nearly all samples [at levels up to 148 µg/litre (parts per billion)] which are all below the limit specified by the US Food and Drug Administration. However, in the UK there are no specific limits set for pesticide residues for fish oils. The FAO Codex Alimentarius, (the international body which establishes maximum residue levels) appears to contain no recommendations for limits on organochlorine pesticides in fish oils, although oils derived from fish and marine mammals are recognised as a commodity group.
> Greenpeace say that under certain circumstances, such as for therapeutic purposes, fish oil could contribute significantly to the dietary intake of PCBs and organochlorine pesticides. In addition, since the substances analysed in this research only form part of the possible persistent organochlorine pollutants in fish oil, other chemicals such as chlorinated dioxins, toxaphene, chlordane and heptachlor should be included in future in order to asses the full scope of the problem.
>
> MN Jacobs and PA Johnston, Greenpeace Research Laboratories, University of Exeter, EX4 4QE.I do not mean to trivialize this issue, as it is very important to health, but I am an environmental toxicologist who has followed these issues closely for a number of years.
The science clearly shows that people who have higher levels of intake of fish and fish products have better health outcomes than those who avoid these products or who have lower levels of intake. All such studies have involved contaminated fish, because all fish are contaminated. Notwithstanding the contamination, you are healthier eating fish and/or fish products than not. Epidemiology looks at real people in real-life situations, and the real-life situation is that our food supply is contaminated.
Fish happens to contain nutrients which counteract much of the toxic burden.If you look closely at any food product which contains fat, it will be contaminated by PCBs, dioxins, furans, organochlorine pesticides, and any other fat-soluble man-made chemical you can think of. I know, because I have looked. Your McDonalds hamburger is contaminated. Your cookies. Your eggs.
Singling out particular food products for scrutiny is a useful tactic (and I do mean tactic) because there are things that industry can do to limit the exposure. Your fish oils are cleaner today because the British ministry MAFF looked at the issue nearly a decade ago.
I do appreciate the intention behind Greenpeace's policy. I do work for non-profit environmental organizations exclusively. I provide the scientific evidence for policy decisions made by a similar NGO. Nevertheless, there is something in this news release that smacks of sensationalization. We don't need another "Alar in apples" non-issue blown completely out of proportion by fear-mongering.
<opinionated response mode off>
Lar
Posted by oracle on November 20, 2002, at 13:21:05
In reply to Thats why you get Molecular Distillation, posted by linkadge on November 20, 2002, at 12:08:24
Show me a product that does this.
Posted by Anyuser on November 20, 2002, at 13:48:15
In reply to Re: Fish Oils contain DDT and PCB's, posted by Larry Hoover on November 20, 2002, at 12:16:32
Posted by oracle on November 20, 2002, at 14:25:30
In reply to Re: Fish Oils contain DDT and PCB's, posted by Larry Hoover on November 20, 2002, at 12:16:32
Sorry, but I do not get a toxicologist saying
basically, eat more PCB's !!!!If you look closely at any food product which contains fat, it will be contaminated by PCBs, dioxins, furans, organochlorine pesticides, and any other fat-soluble man-made chemical you can think of. I know, because I have looked. Your McDonalds hamburger is contaminated. Your cookies. Your eggs.
Not if you are a vegan !!!!!!!
Posted by Ed O`Flaherty on November 20, 2002, at 14:26:04
In reply to Fish Oils contain DDT and PCB's, posted by oracle on November 20, 2002, at 11:26:46
I looked at The Food Safety Authority of Ireland report which investigated contamination levels in fish oil sold in Ireland.Their site is at www.fsai.ie/industry/dioxins3.htm.What really struck me about it was how very low the figures were for Eskimo-3.It is a pity it is so expensive.I personally would not regard fish oil as a commodity.There are many reasons to put Eskimo-3 as a special brand because not only has it very little contamination but it really seems to be more effective in several trials which have been published.
Posted by Larry Hoover on November 20, 2002, at 14:41:10
In reply to Re: Fish Oils contain DDT and PCB's, posted by oracle on November 20, 2002, at 14:25:30
> Sorry, but I do not get a toxicologist saying
> basically, eat more PCB's !!!!PCBs are everywhere already. That is my point. They have such long lives, chemically, that they have survived all the ways that they could have been broken down until there is no environment on the Earth today that is not PCB contaminated. The same goes for DDT, dioxins, PBBs, and all the other Persistent Organic Pollutants. Use that phrase as a keyword search in Google, and see what you turn up.
> If you look closely at any food product which contains fat, it will be contaminated by PCBs, dioxins, furans, organochlorine pesticides, and any other fat-soluble man-made chemical you can think of. I know, because I have looked. Your McDonalds hamburger is contaminated. Your cookies. Your eggs.
>
> Not if you are a vegan !!!!!!!I wish it was true. Denial isn't just a river in Egypt.
Posted by oracle on November 20, 2002, at 15:40:46
In reply to Re: Fish Oils contain DDT and PCB's, posted by Larry Hoover on November 20, 2002, at 14:41:10
> > Not if you are a vegan !!!!!!!
>
> I wish it was true. Denial isn't just a river in Egypt.Since you do not know my eating habits, I think saying I am in denial is off. I can buy organic produce that is locally grown from certified organic farms. Some vegans are not stupid.
Posted by Larry Hoover on November 20, 2002, at 19:17:17
In reply to Re: Fish Oils contain DDT and PCB's, posted by oracle on November 20, 2002, at 15:40:46
> > > Not if you are a vegan !!!!!!!
> >
> > I wish it was true. Denial isn't just a river in Egypt.
>
> Since you do not know my eating habits, I think saying I am in denial is off. I can buy organic produce that is locally grown from certified organic farms. Some vegans are not stupid.I'm sorry if I offended you.
There is no food, at least none I've ever tested (including many many organic samples), nor any I've ever seen in any literature report, that is free from contamination.
The reason I mentioned persistent organic pollutants is that you need to understand that they don't stay put. The very first google hit would take you to a site that describes this.
The POPs have non-zero vapour pressure. They evaporate. Once in the air, they are free as the wind. They fall to Earth with every raindrop, and are condensed on every particle. DDT from Mexico is in your garden soil, as are PCBs from Japan, and dioxins from the incinerator in Britain. POPs are said to have high fugacity.
I do appreciate that organic practices may reduce exposures, but, according to my analyses, and those conducted by others, the differences in toxin burden are small. It just doesn't make that much difference.
Not eating animal products does protect against some of the effects of bio-accumulation. Nonetheless, your burden of toxins is not substantially different from the guy next door.
Choosing foods for the benefits they provide is more worthwhile than attempting to avoid unquantifiable and perhaps unavoidable risks from unseen contaminants, in my opinion.
Posted by oracle on November 20, 2002, at 19:42:57
In reply to Re: Fish Oils contain DDT and PCB's, posted by Larry Hoover on November 20, 2002, at 19:17:17
Not eating animal products does protect against some of the effects of bio-accumulation. Nonetheless, your burden of toxins is not substantially different from the guy next door.
Have you tested me and my food ? Till you do STOP
assuming facts about me.
Posted by oracle on November 20, 2002, at 19:47:50
In reply to Re: Fish Oils contain DDT and PCB's, posted by Larry Hoover on November 20, 2002, at 19:17:17
> The reason I mentioned persistent organic pollutants is that you need to understand that they don't stay put. The very first google hit would take you to a site that describes this.
>
> The POPs have non-zero vapour pressure. They evaporate. Once in the air, they are free as the wind. They fall to Earth with every raindrop, and are condensed on every particle. DDT from Mexico is in your garden soil, as are PCBs from Japan, and dioxins from the incinerator in Britain. POPs are said to have high fugacity.Again, please stop assuming what I do and do not know. We can disagree without you assuming that "I just do not understand"
Hydroponics allows a controled environment and frees one from the contaminated soil
Posted by IsoM on November 20, 2002, at 20:10:33
In reply to Re: Fish Oils contain DDT and PCB's, posted by Larry Hoover on November 20, 2002, at 19:17:17
Larry, I don't doubt your sincerity but haven't you ever wondered why diff studies done using the proper perimeters can have quite diff results?
I don't have it handy (I can do some hunting if you're in doubt) but a recent study that was done according to strict guidelines in the States (& had no affiliation with any compnies or policies, pro or con) did extensive testing on produce from major supermarkets & those from certified organic fod stores. Less strict testing was also done with the public on taste comparisons between the two.
While even the organic produce was found to contain contaminants (they're ubiquitous & we can't escape them), the levels were considered significantly lower. The taste test was highly in favour of the organic produce, people having no idea of whether they were trying organic or not.
Posted by Larry Hoover on November 20, 2002, at 21:06:25
In reply to Levels of Contaminants » Larry Hoover, posted by IsoM on November 20, 2002, at 20:10:33
> Larry, I don't doubt your sincerity but haven't you ever wondered why diff studies done using the proper perimeters can have quite diff results?
>
> I don't have it handy (I can do some hunting if you're in doubt) but a recent study that was done according to strict guidelines in the States (& had no affiliation with any compnies or policies, pro or con) did extensive testing on produce from major supermarkets & those from certified organic fod stores. Less strict testing was also done with the public on taste comparisons between the two.Maybe this is the study?
Food Addit Contam 2002 May;19(5):427-46
Pesticide residues in conventional, integrated pest management (IPM)-grown and organic foods: insights from three US data sets.Baker BP, Benbrook CM, Groth E 3rd, Lutz Benbrook K.
Organic Materials Review Institute, PO Box 11558, Eugene, OR 97440, USA.
An analysis of pesticide residue data was performed to describe and quantify differences between organically grown and non-organic fresh fruits and vegetables. Data on residues in foods from three different market categories (conventionally grown, integrated pest management (IPM)-grown/no detectable residues (NDR), and organically grown) were compared using data from three test programmes: The Pesticide Data Program of the US Department of Agriculture; the Marketplace Surveillance Program of the California Department of Pesticide Regulation; and private tests by the Consumers Union, an independent testing organization. Organically grown foods consistently had about one-third as many residues as conventionally grown foods, and about one-half as many residues as found in IPM/NDR samples. Conventionally grown and IPM/NDR samples were also far more likely to contain multiple pesticide residues than were organically grown samples. Comparison of specific residues on specific crops found that residue concentrations in organic samples were consistently lower than in the other two categories, across all three data sets. The IPM/NDR category, based on data from two of the test programmes, had residues higher than those in organic samples but lower than those in conventionally grown foods.
> While even the organic produce was found to contain contaminants (they're ubiquitous & we can't escape them), the levels were considered significantly lower. The taste test was highly in favour of the organic produce, people having no idea of whether they were trying organic or not.
I have faith in organic practices, as I've been using them myself for over twenty years.
I don't mean to sound like I'm quibbling, but I wasn't specifically speaking to purposeful application of organo-chlorine pesticides on food crops. PCBs and dioxins and so on are another category of contaminants altogether. I've never heard of anyone applying e.g. PCBs to a food crop for any reason, but they're present nonetheless.
I can't find the study right now, but I read an analysis of total intake of dioxins, and the largest route of exposure was inhalation (via dust), exceeding dioxin uptake from dairy or meat, which were themselves equivalent to intake from vegetables.
I'd like to get back to a point that is no longer prominent in this discourse; I can see no reasonable substitute for fish or fish products, vis a vis the health benefits accruing from their consumption, notwithstanding their contaminant burden. Choosing organic vegetables over conventional ones is a different sort of choice altogether. An organic carrot beats a conventional one.
Posted by viridis on November 21, 2002, at 3:34:55
In reply to Re: Levels of Contaminants, posted by Larry Hoover on November 20, 2002, at 21:06:25
I'm not a toxicologist, but I do have a reasonable understanding of these issues, and Larry's arguments are very sensible. PCBs and dioxins, in particular, are now ubiquitous, and it doesn't make much difference whether you're a vegetarian (even a vegan) or not -- you consume these substances every day just as everyone on Earth does.
Choosing organic produce and organically raised meats reduces your exposure to many pesticides, antibiotics, etc., which might be good and certainly can't hurt (my wife and I buy organic whenever possible and are totally organic gardeners), but there are certain contaminants that are now unavoidable if you live on this planet.
I take fish oil supplements because I think the evidence for their effectiveness is fairly convincing, but I accept that they contain unavoidable contaminants that I'm already consuming anyway, and the purification they undergo probably makes them safer than eating fish (which I also do anyway, because I like it).
Posted by utopizen on November 21, 2002, at 6:23:54
In reply to Fish Oils contain DDT and PCB's, posted by oracle on November 20, 2002, at 11:26:46
> DDT and PCBs in cod liver oil
Reason number 40392840294 to remind myself why I'm vegan =)
This is the end of the thread.
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