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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by Mr Beev on November 4, 2002, at 8:41:05
In reply to Re: Does nutrition help side effects?, posted by Gracie2 on November 3, 2002, at 19:16:22
I by no means wish to be a wet blanket, and I applaud all obliging colons, but one may want to peruse this link, obtained from the Quackwatch site:
http://www.acsh.org/publications/priorities/1104/jw.html
Mr Beev
Posted by Tabitha on November 4, 2002, at 14:28:03
In reply to Does nutrition help side effects?, posted by Tabitha on November 3, 2002, at 16:11:08
There are plenty of convincing books and websites about supplements and nutrition, and plenty of equally convincing debunking sites.
What I was wondering, though, is whether anybody has really noticed a difference from, say, adding supplements, or changing their diet.
Posted by BeardedLady on November 4, 2002, at 14:45:30
In reply to Re: thanks, but... any personal experiences?, posted by Tabitha on November 4, 2002, at 14:28:03
Before I took the mega B complex, I was sluggish in spirit and metabolism. I also stopped eating bread and pasta (though I'm off the wagon right now and feeling crappy), making my diet primarily fruits, veggies, and protein. I lost lots of weight and felt more cheerful and energetic.
I also have fewer headaches because of the B.
beardy
Posted by BeardedLady on November 4, 2002, at 14:46:36
In reply to Re: thanks, but... any personal experiences?, posted by Tabitha on November 4, 2002, at 14:28:03
Those counteracted the side effects of Serzone, which makes me sluggish and hungry and slows my metabolism.
beardy
Posted by Larry Hoover on November 4, 2002, at 15:23:11
In reply to Re: thanks, but... any personal experiences?, posted by Tabitha on November 4, 2002, at 14:28:03
Nutritional approaches tend to be subtle in effect, so its pretty hard to see the cause and effect relationship. That said, I have no doubt (literally) that eating a zone-type diet has really helped me with regards to energy, and taking essential oils and phospholipids has definitely helped stabilize my mood. B-vitamins and minerals have helped my cognition, and the combination of all of these has seemed to help my sometimes fragmented recall.
Sometimes I fall off the nutritional wagon, and I can really feel the lethargy and mood decline coming over me. Getting back into supplement mode brings the energy and brain function back on track. It's no cure, but it helps me. No doubt.
Lar
Posted by Tabitha on November 5, 2002, at 0:51:57
In reply to P.S. » Tabitha, posted by BeardedLady on November 4, 2002, at 14:46:36
How much do you take? What time of day do you take it?
Posted by IsoM on November 5, 2002, at 5:58:54
In reply to Re: Details, please... » BeardedLady, posted by Tabitha on November 5, 2002, at 0:51:57
Tabitha, B vitamins are water-soluble. Taking a larger amount once a day, especially on an empty stomach, will mean that most of what's taken is washed out, wasted, in your urine. Why waste your vitamins by flushing them down the toilet?
The B complex is found mainly in grains, seeds, meats (especially liver), & milk, so taking them with food makes far more sense - they're better absorbed. You also benefit from them better if you have smaller amounts taken with each meal than a large amount once a day. Your body tissues reaches a satutation level quickly with the rest wasted - another good reason to take smaller amounts with food.
I know that the B complex is often sold in formulations like B50 or similar & if you read the list of vitamins in it, you'll see something like:
thiamin (B1) 50 mg
riboflavin (B2) 50 mg
pyridoxine (B6) 50 mg
niacin (B3) 50 mg
B12 50 mcg
pantothenic acid (or calcium d-pantothenate) 50 mg
biotin 50 mcg
etc,etc.I try to explain so people will understand better that this formulation is like trying to make a cake with 1 cup of flour, 1 cup of sugar, 1 cup of butter, 1 cup of milk, 1 cup of eggs, 1 tbsp of salt, 1 tbsp of baking powder, 1 tbsp of spices, etc. It would be a pretty terrible recipe. It's the same with the B complex. Your body needs different amounts of the B vitamins. (if you don't believe this, look at the big difference in what the RDA of these are:
http://www.daily-vitamins.com/rda.htmlTherefore, if you're going to buy a B complex supplement to take, you're far better off buying what's called a "stress formulation". But do check the amounts given. Many are no different than these B50 or B100 formulas. The levels of B1, 2, & 6 should be much lower than niacin & most will have between 300-500 mg vitamin C too as a stress factor. This kind is a far more realistic balance than all the same amount. And to make use of B6, your body needs to have an adequate amount of magnesium too.
And you don't even need to take a whole tablet with each meal - most will be wasted. Better to break it into 2 or 3 pieces & take one piece with each meal. B vitamins taken on an empty stomach can cause nausea & stomach pain.
You might want to read what I wrote John at:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/social/20021022/msgs/31977.html
Posted by BeardedLady on November 5, 2002, at 7:15:29
In reply to Re: Details, please... » BeardedLady, posted by Tabitha on November 5, 2002, at 0:51:57
Iso knows a lot, but sometimes that information is hard for dummies like me to understand.
I take Nature Made Super B-Complex with vitamin C and Folic Acid. I also take One a Day for women at the same time. I take them in the morning with breakfast, usually a veggie sausage patty with an egg or piece of melted cheese--more protein than carbs--and maybe a piece of high fiber bread, if I'm feeling the need.
I also drink a ton of water throughout the day.
I find that B works best for me in the morning, as it energizes me throughout the day. (Some Bs shouldn't be taken late in the day if you have sleep problems, or so I've read.)
You needn't worry about taking this on a full stomach, but it shouldn't be empty. It needs to latch on to something. And I believe it's okay to take it with food--while you're eating--meaning you don't have to wait until your food is digested. That's what I do, anyway.
It's a pretty easy thing to add to the routine.
beardy
Posted by Kari on November 5, 2002, at 13:12:01
In reply to Re: thanks, but... any personal experiences?, posted by Tabitha on November 4, 2002, at 14:28:03
Calcium and magnesium has made a real difference in some of my symptoms. It helps stabilize my mood and has a calming effect.
Posted by Kari on November 5, 2002, at 13:21:19
In reply to Does nutrition help side effects?, posted by Tabitha on November 3, 2002, at 16:11:08
It is claimed that any excess in B intake results in the vitamins being flushed out. If this is true, why is B6 known to cause neurological damage in excess?
Another strange thing- I once took niacin (25 or 50 mg-I forgot) for two days and ended up practically knocked out with clouded consciousness and unable to feel my arms and legs. Has anyone experienced anything similar?
Posted by BeardedLady on November 5, 2002, at 13:34:42
In reply to B vitamins, posted by Kari on November 5, 2002, at 13:21:19
A friend of mine had the same problem with niacin. I have Cal-Max from last March, something I bought off Ebay from an infomercial. It's a calcium/magnesium preparation that you're supposed to take before bedtime to help you sleep. I haven't tried it yet!
beardy
Posted by Larry Hoover on November 5, 2002, at 13:44:59
In reply to B vitamins, posted by Kari on November 5, 2002, at 13:21:19
> It is claimed that any excess in B intake results in the vitamins being flushed out. If this is true, why is B6 known to cause neurological damage in excess?
Yes, you'll excrete the excess in your urine, but first the vitamins are in your blood. Your body can be thought of as various compartments. There are membranes separating the compartments, and on each side of the membrane, there are different concentrations of all kinds of different chemicals. Taking B vitamins results in a transient increase in blood concentrations, which permits the various compartments to take up some of them before the kidneys have a chance to waste it all.
There are a number of theories to explain the apparent neurotoxicity of excess B6, but the most compelling is that taking B6, or any of the Bs, in huge doses can cause deficiency in other of the B vitamins. B6 overdose depletes B12, and neurological sequelae are the major sign of B12 deficiency. I've checked medline, and the only reports of B6 neurotoxicity involved taking grams per day for years. There is a myth about B6 toxicity, and it stems from misreporting of this factoid. If you research this issue, I bet you that you'll only find secondary or tertiary references. In other words, the sort like "So-and-so says that...."
> Another strange thing- I once took niacin (25 or 50 mg-I forgot) for two days and ended up practically knocked out with clouded consciousness and unable to feel my arms and legs. Has anyone experienced anything similar?
It depends on the form of the niacin, but nicotinic acid causes vasodilation, and resulting loss of blood pressure. Was the effect transient?
You can avoid it altogether with niacinamide, or inositol nicotinate.B vitamins should always be taken in combination. That's why B-complex formulations exist, and Stress-vitamins all have B-complex in them.
Yes, you'll excrete a lot of it. But, during the time it's coursing through your veins and arteries, your various organs and tissues have a chance to take it up. Once it's gone, they don't get another chance, until you ingest some more.
Lar
Posted by cab on November 5, 2002, at 14:11:51
In reply to B vitamins, posted by Kari on November 5, 2002, at 13:21:19
That's weird -- I take 2000 mg niacin daily (for cholesterol) and my mom takes 5000 mg daily. We take it with low-dose aspirin to control the flushing, and we haven't had any problems with it.
> Another strange thing- I once took niacin (25 or 50 mg-I forgot) for two days and ended up practically knocked out with clouded consciousness and unable to feel my arms and legs. Has anyone experienced anything similar?
Posted by Kara Lynne on November 5, 2002, at 16:05:46
In reply to Does nutrition help side effects?, posted by Tabitha on November 3, 2002, at 16:11:08
At one point a liquid amino acid formula really helped my energy and mood. Unfortunately I can no longer find it, but I am looking into finding a good amino acid supplement. I think they really help. Of course you have to be careful, and if you're on MAO'Is I don't think you can take anything with (not Tyrosine, but one of those) in it. Sorry I can't be more specific.
Posted by IsoM on November 5, 2002, at 16:16:35
In reply to B vitamins, posted by Kari on November 5, 2002, at 13:21:19
Larry gave an excellent, factual answer to your question. It shows another reason not to take *huge* amounts of B vitamins & to take them in decent balanced amounts.
And like he said, niacin (another name for it is nicotinic acid - it's structurally similar to nicotine, but very different in its actions!) that causes this flushing & weird sensation, but in the form of niacinamide, it doesn't. Whether you take niacin or niacinamide, your body will use it the same ultimately, but in the form of niacin, it also serves to lower cholesterol levels.
It's also known that vitamin A & D both can cause toxic changes if too much is taken as it's fat soluble & excess is stored in the liver. But there again, a person really needs to take large amounts for a period of time before problems arise. But in babies & small children, it takes far less, so nutritionalists & doctors would rather err on the side of caution.
**Beardy** - I've read but can't confirm that the reason B vitamins taken first thing in the morning "energizes" a person is because some of the B vitamins are used in cellular respiration ('burning sugar for energy' is the common term). But if too much of certain B vitamins is taken, it will lead to screwing up blood sugar levels. This, in turn, can lead to the opposite effect hoped for with time - less energy & a draggy, tired feeling. Now I can't verify this for certain so I'm just mentioning it, but I have heard often enough that many people after taking large amounts of B vitamins over a period of time experience fatigue & lack of energy. I'm still trying to track down how factual the reasoning behind this is.
Posted by rayww on November 5, 2002, at 19:16:30
In reply to Does nutrition help side effects?, posted by Tabitha on November 3, 2002, at 16:11:08
For my whole life my nails have been soft. The last few they have become worse, peeling and breaking as they grow. I decided if I ever find a nutritional supplement that causes improvement in my nails, I will take note and know I have discovered what I am deficient in. I have been taking EMPower (truehope) for just over two months. For the first time in my life my nails feel hard. They are beginning to show some growth. My nails are the least of importance, but something tangible I can recognize. The other benefits feel so normal that it's hard to identify them, like, I don't "need" email and expression as much as before, and I don't get that "sick" feeling that drives me to follow patterns that I used to think were addictions.
Posted by BeardedLady on November 5, 2002, at 19:24:43
In reply to Re: B vitamins and Larry's Answer -also for Beardy » Kari, posted by IsoM on November 5, 2002, at 16:16:35
Can't prove it, but I don't think this is true. And if it is, I'm hardly taking "large amounts" of B. But why would switching times make a difference, especially when food is being consumed?
beardy
Posted by IsoM on November 5, 2002, at 20:22:25
In reply to sugar for energy » IsoM, posted by BeardedLady on November 5, 2002, at 19:24:43
> > "Can't prove it, but I don't think this is true. And if it is, I'm hardly taking "large amounts" of B. But why would switching times make a difference, especially when food is being consumed?"
Exactly what I mean. I'm not sure it's a very plausible reason for the slump in energy levels that *some* notice after taking large amounts for a year or so. There's probably lots of other things that come into play here. Besides, you take yours with food & don't take huge amounts. They may be talking about those who take it on an empty stomach only.
If someone takes B complex as 50 or 100 mg of each of the vitamins, it'll mean that some, like niacin will be too low compared to others like B1 & B2. This is why I like getting mine from foods like yeast flakes & wheat germ plus some other foods. Because of my high need for B complex, I can feel a difference when I get it from foods. Some of the beginning deficiency symptoms can show with me taking supplements only but not with foods. I have no idea why I have a high need for the B complex, but unless I make sure I get extra, I show deficiency signs in a couple of days. Maybe it's something about my own particular metabolism or absorption.
Posted by bluedog on November 6, 2002, at 3:57:28
In reply to B vitamins, posted by Kari on November 5, 2002, at 13:21:19
Just a quick point.
If your worried that taking a B-complex results in expensive urine, the way to reduce this is to purchase your B-complex (and your Multivitamin complex for that matter) in slow release tablets.
Some brands offer the slow release form and the nutrients are released over an 8 hour period meaning that your body is not immediately flooded with the nutrients.
When I changed to slow release tablets, I knew they were working because I no longer had bright fluorescent urine shortly after taking my tablets
(this fluorescent yellow urine is apparently caused by excess B2 or riboflavin as the body can only handle about 25mg maximum at once and the excess is immediately excreted through the urine)The other advantage of the slow release tablets is that your body has access to the full B-complex over a longer period of time.
Posted by Alara on November 6, 2002, at 6:11:17
In reply to Re: B vitamins, posted by bluedog on November 6, 2002, at 3:57:28
> Just a quick point.
>
> If your worried that taking a B-complex results in expensive urine, the way to reduce this is to purchase your B-complex (and your Multivitamin complex for that matter) in slow release tablets.
>
>
Does yellow urine indicate that your B-complex results in `expensive urine'? Does this place more stress on the kidneys??
Posted by BeardedLady on November 6, 2002, at 6:29:20
In reply to Re: B vitamins, posted by Alara on November 6, 2002, at 6:11:17
By "expensive urine," I think he meant that the money you spent for your vitamin complex is being flushed down the toilet, literally!
beardy
Posted by BeardedLady on November 6, 2002, at 6:30:16
In reply to Re: B vitamins, posted by bluedog on November 6, 2002, at 3:57:28
Great idea. Can you tell me what brand you take? It'll help when I look among the plethora of vitamins at my supermarket.
beardy
Posted by bluedog on November 6, 2002, at 10:23:57
In reply to Re: B vitamins, posted by Alara on November 6, 2002, at 6:11:17
Alara
In answer to your queries.
1. I refer to what beardedlady said in the
previous post. Bright yellow urine is simply
the most visible sign that you have given
your body more than it requires at that time.
The analogy most often used is that once your
car's petrol(gas) tank is full it's full and
if you keep pumping the excess will simply
spill over.(I think this analogy may even
have been used by others on this board at
times)
2. Does this place more stress on the kidneys?
Maybe, maybe not. This probably doesn't sound
helpful though I'll do my best to explain.
Unless you are taking absolute mega doses,
the B vitamins are essentially non-toxic.
The B vitamin to be most careful of would be
B6 which may cause nerve damage with
sustained high doses as mentioned in an
earlier post above by Larry Hoover( Larry is
also right that a lot of reports on B6
toxicity are anecdotal reports only though
the consensus amongst vitamin experts seems
to be that caution
needs to be taken in doses above 500mg B6 per
day though there have been isolated reports
of problems occurring from lower doses of say
above 100mg per day) I personally would not
take more than about 30-50 mg per day from
supplement sources (food sources don't cause
a problem)as I prefer to err on the side of
caution and even this amount is possibly
way more than even a highly stressed person
would require each day. (the RDA for B6 is
only about 2.2 mg per day)Also B6 MAY cause nervousness and agitation
above about 75mg per day. So therefore I
would avoid EXCESSIVE B6 before bedtime
and if you suffer from any form of anxiety.
I personally saw an improvement in my
anxiety and sleep problems when I dropped my
daily B6 supplements to below 50mg per day
and taking the supplement no later than
lunchtime. I used to believe more meant
better but I was wrong.
NOTE: you will notice that many stress
formulas and sleep formulas actually contain
B6. This is because in the right amounts B6
is actually necessary in many of the
metabolic processes that promote relaxation
and sleep. The problem occurs at high doses.
Anyway back to your question whether excess B vitamins puts extra stress on your kidneys. I think probably not at reasonable doses but then again if you keep filling your car tank after it's full the spillage may damage the paintwork.These are my views on the subject
keep well
Posted by bluedog on November 6, 2002, at 10:40:03
In reply to Re: B vitamins » bluedog, posted by BeardedLady on November 6, 2002, at 6:30:16
I don't know where you live but I live in Australia and I take a sustained release multivitamin by Blackmores. I don't know if this brand is available where you are but here's a link to their website
http://www.blackmores.com/buy_products.asp
Blackmores B complex is also sustained release but I only take the multivitamin as I believe the levels of the B vitamins are more than sufficient in this tablet.
Your best bet is to ask at your local health food store (surprisingly where I live the local health food store is actually cheaper for the same supplements found in the large chain grocery store in the same shopping complex. furthermore twice a week they have a free naturopath service where you can ask any questions you like about supplements and nutrition with no obligation to buy any products)
I would be surprised if you can't get sustained release vitamins in your area.
regards
Posted by Larry Hoover on November 6, 2002, at 11:19:36
In reply to Re: B vitamins » Alara, posted by bluedog on November 6, 2002, at 10:23:57
> Unless you are taking absolute mega doses,
> the B vitamins are essentially non-toxic.
> The B vitamin to be most careful of would be
> B6 which may cause nerve damage with
> sustained high doses as mentioned in an
> earlier post above by Larry Hoover( Larry is
> also right that a lot of reports on B6
> toxicity are anecdotal reports only though
> the consensus amongst vitamin experts seems
> to be that caution
> needs to be taken in doses above 500mg B6 per
> day though there have been isolated reports
> of problems occurring from lower doses of say
> above 100mg per day)I decided it would be worthwhile to post some abstracts.
Funct Neurol 1993 Nov-Dec;8(6):429-32
Sensory and motor neuropathy caused by excessive ingestion of vitamin B6: a case report.
Morra M, Philipszoon HD, D'Andrea G, Cananzi AR, L'Erario R, Milone FF.
Department of Neurology, San Bortolo Hospital U.L.SS. n. 8, Vicenza, Italy.
We describe a patient who developed a severe sensory and a mild motor neuropathy. This syndrome was due to massive and prolonged ingestion of vitamin B6 (10 g daily for 5 years). To our knowledge this is the first published case of motor neuropathy caused by chronic abuse of vitamin B6.
Neurology 1985 Oct;35(10):1466-8
Sensory neuropathy with low-dose pyridoxine.
Parry GJ, Bredesen DE.
We describe 16 patients with neuropathy associated with pyridoxine abuse. The clinical picture of a pure sensory central-peripheral distal axonopathy was consistent. Pyridoxine dose was 0.2 to 5 g/d, and duration of consumption before symptoms was inversely proportional to the daily intake. In all patients with adequate follow-up, improvement followed discontinuation of pyridoxine. The ready availability of up to 1-gram tablets makes it likely that this neuropathy will continue to be seen.
Acta Neurol Scand 1987 Jul;76(1):8-11
Characteristics of pyridoxine overdose neuropathy syndrome.
Dalton K, Dalton MJ.
A newly recognised neurotoxic syndrome due to pyridoxine (B6) overdose is described. It is the largest series of B6 intoxication hitherto reported. A raised serum B6 level was present in 172 women of whom 60% had neurological symptoms, which disappeared when B6 was withdrawn and reappeared in 4 cases when B6 was restarted. The mean dose of B6 in the 103 women with neurological symptoms was 117 +/- 92 mgs, compared with 116.2 +/- 66 mgs in the control group. There was a significant difference (P less than 0.01) in the average duration of ingestion of B6 in the neurotoxic group of 2.9 +/- 1.9 years compared with 1.6 +/- 2.1 years in controls. The symptoms were paraesthesia, hyperaesthesia, bone pains, muscle weakness, numbness and fasciculation, most marked on the extremities and predominantly bilateral unless there was a history of previous trauma to the limb. These women were taking a lower dose of B6 than previously described (1,2), which may account for the complete recovery within 6 months of stopping B6.
Note that there is a marked variability within groups (dose), but that neuropathy was significantly correlated with duration.
What stands out in these reports is that the neuropathy takes a significant period of time to manifest itself, and, a significant period of time to remit.
This is consistent with the behaviour of vitamin B12. Alone among the B vitamins, B12 is stored in the liver. B12 is essential for the formation of myelin, the electrical insulation for the nervous system. B6 neuropathy seems remarkable consistent with B12 deficiency (no mention of pernicous anemia in the case reports, but maybe they didn't look, or didn't see it as relevant).
This syndrome seems to emphasize the point that B-vitamins should never be individually supplemented at high doses.
> Anyway back to your question whether excess B vitamins puts extra stress on your kidneys. I think probably not at reasonable doses but then again if you keep filling your car tank after it's full the spillage may damage the paintwork.
I think it's dangerous to take analogies beyond their initial conditions. That said, having excess B-vitamins in the urine may contribute to urinary tract infections. Untreated, UTIs can affect the kidneys.
> These are my views on the subject
> keep wellMine are only conjecture, as well.
Lar
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