![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 29. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Shawn. T. on July 29, 2002, at 3:31:34
Actions on dopamine receptors are unnecessary for the treatment of schizophrenia or bipolar disorder. The problem is actually a dysregulation of dopamine and glutamatergic transmission by serotonin 5-HT2 receptors (note that I finally discovered that human 5-HT2b receptors are not even located in the brain).
D2 dopamine receptor antagonism results in side effects that are unnecessary. For a rational description of schizophrenia, seehttp://biopsychiatry.com/schizoserotonin.htm
Aventis Pharmaceuticals will likely soon be releasing a potent new drug for schizophrenia, M,100,907. M,100,907 is a potent 5-HT2 antagonist. It has the same, perhaps even better, effects as current drugs available for schizophrenia treatment, only without the extrapyramidal side effects. Take for example Zyprexa (Olanzapine). Zyprexa exerts its effects on a very wide range of receptors. See http://www.gpcr.org/7tm/ligand/Organon/Tablig/LIG_C132539061.html
5-HT1a effects are within the range of weakly active, so that rules out 5-HT with regards to possible explanation of Zyprexa's efficacy. With regards to the dopamine receptors, the evidence seems to show that their activation is not necessary for the treatment of schizophrenia and leads to increased extrapyramidal side effects. See
http://www4.infotrieve.com/search/databases/detailsNew.asp?artID=1986311
With regards to NAa1, I am unaware of any reasoning that would support a role for it in schizophrenia. The effects on acetylcholine are unnecessary and produce side effects (memory impairment for example). Effects on histamine receptors, however, are transient and should disappear after a few weeks.
This would imply 5-HT2 antagonism as the mechanism of schizophrenia efficacy in Zyprexa.As mentioned in the study provided above, 5-HT2 antagonism is the key to treating schizophrenia. The extra effects on receptors unrelated to schizophrenia seen in current treatments are providing both the positive and negative effects of these drugs. M,100,907 would provide all of the positive effects of 5-HT2 antagonism and none of the negative effects caused by anticholinergic, antihistamine, and dopaminergic actions. I suggest that M,100,907, among other positive actions, helps to modulate dopamine release. It would prevent spikes in dopamine release in response to stressors or the introduction of drugs such as amphetamines. See
http://www4.infotrieve.com/search/databases/detailsNew.asp?artID=24612534
With regards to the negative and positive effects of schizophrenia and how M,100,907 affects these, see
http://www4.infotrieve.com/search/databases/detailsNew.asp?artID=7411933
and
http://www4.infotrieve.com/search/databases/detailsNew.asp?artID=11283291
Also examine the following study for an explanation of hallucinations in schizophrenic patients:
http://www4.infotrieve.com/search/databases/detailsNew.asp?artID=24922782Moreover, a 5-HT2 antagonist, Mirtazapine (Remeron) has been given regulatory approval in the United States. For this reason, I would suggest that a 5-HT2 antagonist would be a very tolerable agent to cure schizophrenia. M,100,907 has been shown to be more effective than both clozapine and haloperidol. Until M,100,907 is released, I would suggest that Remeron is currently the drug with the fewest side effects for schizophrenia treatment.
Posted by Seweryn on July 29, 2002, at 3:51:16
In reply to Stop taking Zyprexa, posted by Shawn. T. on July 29, 2002, at 3:31:34
I can resell xxx for just 70 USD.
I guarantee honesty and speed delivery at very low price.
if you pay 200 USD for such set please do not hesitate to contact me
Posted by CamW. on July 29, 2002, at 16:39:59
In reply to Stop taking Zyprexa, posted by Shawn. T. on July 29, 2002, at 3:31:34
Shawn - I think that you have the concept of the roles of dopamine and serotonin receptors backwards. As research with MDL-100,907 and mirtazapine in schizophrenia has shown, the 5-HT2 receptor is not involved in the manifestation of the symptoms of schizophrenia.
Most leading researchers believe that it is the strength of the binding of antipsychotics to the dopamine-D2 receptors that differentiates the traditional antipsychotics from the newer ones.
I have commented on the work of Dr. Phil Seeman (who originated receptor site theory) and Dr. Shitij Kapur before on this site. Check the search function under Dr.Seemans name for my explanation of their work that was published in the American Journal of Psychiatry in the March 2001 issue(158:360-369 - "Does Fast Dissociation From the Dopamine-D2 Receptor Explain the Action of Atypical Antipsychotic?: A New Hypothesis"). This article was a follow-up of an article that Dr.Seeman had published in Clinical Neuroscience Research in early 2001 (pp 53-60 - "Antipsychotic Drugs, Dopamine Receptors, and Schizophrenia"). Both articles are excellent and well referenced.
For further evidence of D2 block rather than 5-HT2 block being resposible for antipsychotic effects (in a visual form) see:
Kapur S. "A New Framework for Investigating Antipsychotic Action in Humans: Lessons From PET Imaging". Molecular Psychiatry 1998; 3: pp 135-140.
and
Kapur S, Zipursky R, Jones C, Shammi CS, Remington G, Seeman P. "A Positron Emission Tomography Study of Quetiapine in Schizophrenia: A Preliminary Finding of an Antipsychotic Effect With Only Transiently High Dopamine-D2 Receptor Occupancy. Archives of General Psychiatry 2000; 57: pp 553-559.
and
Scherer J, Tatsch K, Schwarz J, Oertel WH, Konjarczyk M, Albus M: D2-Dopamine Receptor Occupancy Differs Between Patients With and Without Extrapyramidal Side Effects". Acta Psychiatrica Scandinavia 1994; 90: pp 266-268.
Also, if you check the following articles on fananserin and MDL-100907 respectively, you will find that these drugs, which both bind strongly to 5-HT2 receptors but are devoid of action at D2 receptors, have no antipsychotic activity. These following papers (actually, one is an article and one is a drug company report):
Truffinet P, Tamminga CA, Fabre LF, Meltzer HY, Riviere ME, Papillion-Downey C. "Placebo-Controlled Study of the D4/5-HT2A Antagonist Fananserin in the Treatment of Schizophrenia". American Journal of Psychiatry 1999; 156: pp 419-425.
Hoechst Marion Roussel (Company Report S). "Management Decisions on Priority Pipeline Products: MDL-100907". Frankfurt, Germany, 1999; pp 2-3.
If a drug company says a drug that they are testing doesn't work, it probably doesn't work.
As for 5-HT2 antagonism being responsible for a decreased incidence of EPS, this is probably wrong as well. Lack of EPS, and possibly a decreased incidence of raised prolactin levels, can be better explained by reversible D2 binding with the newer antipsychotics, as opposed to irreversible binding of conventional antipsychotics to D2 sites.
The reason I have all of these articles is that I took a serious interest in this after a lecture by Phil Seeman I attended in 2000. At the time he was just formulating the theory. As a matter of fact, he had completely changed his lecture while talking with another presenter on the way from the airport. It was really cool to see the gears working in such an intelligent and passionate man.
- Cam
Posted by LostBoyinNC1 on July 29, 2002, at 18:05:59
In reply to Re: Stop taking Zyprexa » Shawn. T., posted by CamW. on July 29, 2002, at 16:39:59
>
> As for 5-HT2 antagonism being responsible for a decreased incidence of EPS, this is probably wrong as well. Lack of EPS, and possibly a decreased incidence of raised prolactin levels, can be better explained by reversible D2 binding with the newer antipsychotics, as opposed to irreversible binding of conventional antipsychotics to D2 sites.If the newer atypical anti-psychotics dont cause EPS, how come all the ones I tried made my tongue numb, have muscle twitches and made my muscle everywhere become tight feeling? How come these drugs made me feel emotionally "flat?" How come all atypicals make my throat tight and I have mild trouble swallowing on them? How come last fall after a month on only 50 mg Seroquel my right side became weak and my psychiatrist found my right arm had become stiff and ratchety feeling and my right grip became weak? How come I began losing muscle tone on Seroquel Cam?
>
> The reason I have all of these articles is that I took a serious interest in this after a lecture by Phil Seeman I attended in 2000. At the time he was just formulating the theory. As a matter of fact, he had completely changed his lecture while talking with another presenter on the way from the airport. It was really cool to see the gears working in such an intelligent and passionate man.
Why do you believe all this drug company crap about atypical anti-psychotics Cam?
Posted by Shawn. T. on July 29, 2002, at 18:40:08
In reply to Re: Question for Cam, posted by LostBoyinNC1 on July 29, 2002, at 18:05:59
Thanks man; I really don't know what to say to that. I've taken both Zyprexa and Seroquel before, and I know exactly what they do to you. I could really care less about what anyone who studies PET images has to say; it's like trying to describe how an engine works without considering what actions are going on inside of it. And this is just plain bs:
http://www4.infotrieve.com/newmedline/detail.asp?NameID=11229973&loggedusing=M&Session=102188&SearchQuery=%22Does+Fast+Dissociation+From+the+Dopamine%2DD2+Receptor+Explain+the+Action+of+Atypical%22&count=1Modulating D2 receptors cannot be done using a drug acting solely at those receptors. Dr. Seeman shows a clear misunderstanding of schizophrenia, and I am not afraid to say so. If anyone really believes that drugs like Zyprexa are the pinnacle of schizophrenia treatment, then they are badly mistaken. I don't know what their management decisions were, but they are under new management now, and the drug is in the process of clinical trial research.
Shawn
Posted by CamW. on July 29, 2002, at 21:23:49
In reply to Re: Question for Cam » LostBoyinNC1, posted by Shawn. T. on July 29, 2002, at 18:40:08
Ah, I've been away for awhile and I now see that others are correct about the quality of information deteriorating on this board.
Dr.Seeman has a misunderstanding of the processes involved in schizophrenia?
Being able to cut and paste information off of a website (often out of context) or posting a URL replaces more than 50 years of study of a disorder?
Personal subjective experience is closer to the truth than objective, reproduceable experiments?
One person's personal experience is generalizable to humanity as a whole?
Knowledge is not wisdom; especially when the information is gleaned from misunderstood and misinformed knowledge. Please learn the material before trying to educate, otherwise one can truly harm others.
If anyone would like to hear a serious rebutal to Shawn's or Lost Boy's dangerous misinformation, I will gladly attempt it; but I will not do it for the sake of those whose minds are closed. It would just be a waste of my time. - Cam
Posted by LostBoyinNC1 on July 29, 2002, at 21:58:02
In reply to Re: Question for Cam, posted by CamW. on July 29, 2002, at 21:23:49
> Ah, I've been away for awhile and I now see that others are correct about the quality of information deteriorating on this board.
>
> Dr.Seeman has a misunderstanding of the processes involved in schizophrenia?
>
> Being able to cut and paste information off of a website (often out of context) or posting a URL replaces more than 50 years of study of a disorder?
>
> Personal subjective experience is closer to the truth than objective, reproduceable experiments?
>
> One person's personal experience is generalizable to humanity as a whole?
>
> Knowledge is not wisdom; especially when the information is gleaned from misunderstood and misinformed knowledge. Please learn the material before trying to educate, otherwise one can truly harm others.Ive learned the material...asshole. All the atypicals create dopamine blockade. Dopamine blockade can cause EPS. Period.
>
> If anyone would like to hear a serious rebutal to Shawn's or Lost Boy's dangerous misinformation, I will gladly attempt it; but I will not do it for the sake of those whose minds are closed. It would just be a waste of my time. - Cam
>
>
>
>Hey Cam, my own psychiatrist says I had EPS from Seroquel. Im not self diagnosing myself. He gave me muscle tests in his office and my right arm was stiff and ratchety feeling. He said "youve got Seroquel induced EPS." Also, my family doctor diagnosed the above symptoms as directly related to the Seroquel. Its all in my medical records. Meaning its official. I was prescribed Amantadine and Cogentin and told to take OTC benadryl forit. Sound like EPS Cam? Whats it sound like Cam? You been watching too much X-files or something? Or not taking your own atypical anti-psychotics like you should?
Ive always thought you sounded like you were half baked to be honest Cam. Id love to get ahold of your full name, Id report you to whatever Canadian province you live in pharmacy board in a minute for the shit you just spouted off to me.
You are just a dumb asshole geek who believes everything you read from the pharmaceutical company studies. Youre naiive Cam, those pharmaceutical companies just want to sell more atypicals. I suspect youd be the sort who would enthusiastically approve of Eli Lilly's proposed Zyprexa plus Prozac combo for non psychotic treatment resistant depression. Plenty of depressives will get messed up with EPS if that fiasco is ever FDA approved.
whats your last name Cam? Whats the W stand for? What part of Canada? I want to write a report and complain about you to the pharmacy board.
Posted by LostBoyinNC1 on July 29, 2002, at 22:16:19
In reply to Re: Question for Cam, posted by CamW. on July 29, 2002, at 21:23:49
> Ah, I've been away for awhile and I now see that others are correct about the quality of information deteriorating on this board.
>
> Dr.Seeman has a misunderstanding of the processes involved in schizophrenia?
>
> Being able to cut and paste information off of a website (often out of context) or posting a URL replaces more than 50 years of study of a disorder?
>
> Personal subjective experience is closer to the truth than objective, reproduceable experiments?
>
> One person's personal experience is generalizable to humanity as a whole?
>
> Knowledge is not wisdom; especially when the information is gleaned from misunderstood and misinformed knowledge. Please learn the material before trying to educate, otherwise one can truly harm others.
>
> If anyone would like to hear a serious rebutal to Shawn's or Lost Boy's dangerous misinformation, I will gladly attempt it; but I will not do it for the sake of those whose minds are closed. It would just be a waste of my time. - Cam
>Cam, it clearly states in the official Seroquel monograph published by AstraZenaca that EPS is a possible side effect of the drug. Please Email me your full name and the province you live in and the full address of the pharmacy board which maintains your pharmacy license. I am going to file a written complaint against you for your snotty nosed, sarcastic comments regarding my Seroquel induced EPS. Please Email this info to WhoDat857@yahoo.com by tomorrow. I will not give any of this information to anyone else, it will be used strictly in the filing of the written complaint. I am very trustworthy in that respect.
thank you,
LostBoyinNC
>
>
>
Posted by LostBoyinNC1 on July 29, 2002, at 22:45:44
In reply to Re: Question for Cam, posted by LostBoyinNC1 on July 29, 2002, at 22:16:19
Hey Cam, still think Seroquel cant cause movement disorders? Read this link off Medline, provided by the toxicology database Micromedex, Inc. Scroll down to side efects.
http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/druginfo/uspdi/203124.html
And another good source of info about psych meds is Ralph Nader's website "Public Citizen." Go to this site, scroll down to Seroquel and you shall see that Seroquel carries with it the possibility of causing TD, NMS and EPS.
http://www.citizen.org/eletter/drugindex.htm
The company that makes Seroquel, AstraZenaca denies Seroquel causes EPS, yet admits it has a possibility of causing NMS and TD. How fucking stupid. If it can cause TD, it can cause EPS. EPS is a precursor oftentimes to development of TD.
Posted by cybercafe on July 29, 2002, at 22:56:14
In reply to Re: Question for Cam, posted by LostBoyinNC1 on July 29, 2002, at 22:16:19
> Cam, it clearly states in the official Seroquel monograph published by AstraZenaca that EPS is a
Lostboy, I really respect your opinion and I would hate to see you banned from the board, so please don't get upset unnecessarily.
I think Cam was upset because he mistook you for Shawn.... and while I certainly enjoy Shawn's posts and what he has to say, I too was somewhat upset that psychotic individuals were being urged to come off their meds...
i mean a lot of schizophrenics are not aware of their condition (a lot are too) and most do not like their side effects and can use encouragement to continue to take them -- i hear of too many people flushing their drugs down the toilet and that is just plain dangerous... i mean we could be talking about suicide here ...Shawn -- a lot of people really look up to you and have a lot more faith in you than they should in any one person ... and I think it is very important that you show some measure of responsibility in offering others advice... even the best proven antipsychotics -- as far as i know -- cannot guarantee 100% that all those who take them will be free of mania and psychosis and suicidal ideation... much less an experimental drug...
personally because i like you i would prefer not to say anything and indeed have been holding my tongue -- but i think it is important to realize that you can cause some really serious problems when you encourage people to behave in a hasty manner -- that is, coming off meds without affirming the importance of being under the supervision of a doctor.... especially in those who suffer from more serious psychiatric disorders
cybercafe
Posted by cybercafe on July 29, 2002, at 23:00:55
In reply to Re: Question for Cam, posted by CamW. on July 29, 2002, at 21:23:49
> If anyone would like to hear a serious rebutal to Shawn's or Lost Boy's dangerous misinformation, I will gladly attempt it; but I
Cam ... I am interested in hearing what you have to say... and I respect the fact that you, Shawn, and Lostboy can cite some resources instead of just providing conjecture...
... I know depression makes us all a bit irritable... but I hope we can all get along and try to understand each other and communicate instead of responding emotionally (something i probably do more than most here) ...... btw.. what other places are there on the internet for intelligent discussion? .... i find most internet users to be far better educated than most people i meet in Real Life (tm)
cybercafe
Posted by LostBoyinNC1 on July 29, 2002, at 23:10:24
In reply to Re: More Seroquel info for CamW, posted by LostBoyinNC1 on July 29, 2002, at 22:45:44
This link leads directly to the OFFICIAL AstraZenaca Seroquel Monograph, found on the official Seroquel website. You need Adobe Acrobat to open and read it. You have to expand it to at least 150% to be able to read it in Adobe Acrobat format. In this Seroquel monograph, it specifically says Seroquel is capable of causing TD. If it can cause TD, it can cause EPS.
Then go to "consumer" and then to "prescribing information" and the monograph will unload. This is the same Seroquel monograph that comes with each bottle of Seroquel in the pharmacy.
Posted by LostBoyinNC1 on July 29, 2002, at 23:41:55
In reply to to: Lostboy, Shawn, Cam, posted by cybercafe on July 29, 2002, at 22:56:14
> > Cam, it clearly states in the official Seroquel monograph published by AstraZenaca that EPS is a
>
> Lostboy, I really respect your opinion and I would hate to see you banned from the board, so please don't get upset unnecessarily.
>
> I think Cam was upset because he mistook you for Shawn.... and while I certainly enjoy Shawn's posts and what he has to say, I too was somewhat upset that psychotic individuals were being urged to come off their meds...
> i mean a lot of schizophrenics are not aware of their condition (a lot are too) and most do not like their side effects and can use encouragement to continue to take them -- i hear of too many people flushing their drugs down the toilet and that is just plain dangerous... i mean we could be talking about suicide here ...
>
> Shawn -- a lot of people really look up to you and have a lot more faith in you than they should in any one person ... and I think it is very important that you show some measure of responsibility in offering others advice... even the best proven antipsychotics -- as far as i know -- cannot guarantee 100% that all those who take them will be free of mania and psychosis and suicidal ideation... much less an experimental drug...
>
> personally because i like you i would prefer not to say anything and indeed have been holding my tongue -- but i think it is important to realize that you can cause some really serious problems when you encourage people to behave in a hasty manner -- that is, coming off meds without affirming the importance of being under the supervision of a doctor.... especially in those who suffer from more serious psychiatric disorders
>
> cybercafeIm not talking about schizophrenics. I believe schizophrenics should take anti-psychotics like I take antidepressants. What I was angry about was Cam's insistence that Seroquel is so "safe" and doesnt cause EPS. I was formally diagnosed with Seroquel induced EPS. My dx is major depression, not schizophrenia. I think its FUCKED UP that atypical anti-psychotics are being prescribed more and more for depression and anxiety. Atypical anti-psychotics are serious drugs for psychotic conditions. Not for major depression and anxiety and insomnia. Nor should they be used in depressives for "behavioral control."
All the atypicals can cause EPS and depressives dont need that kind of shit. A schizophrenic, with naturally high dopamine levels can a little EPS is small potatoes. But to a depressive its serious business.
I under no circumstances was implying that schizophrenics should go off Seroquel. But I do question Seroquel being used on those dxed with major depression or anxiety disorders. Cam's attitude is snotty nosed.
Posted by CamW. on July 29, 2002, at 23:42:02
In reply to Re: TD info off the official Seroquel website, posted by LostBoyinNC1 on July 29, 2002, at 23:10:24
I stand by my answer and can back it fully. - Cam
Posted by LostBoyinNC1 on July 30, 2002, at 0:15:26
In reply to Re: TD info off the official Seroquel website » LostBoyinNC1, posted by CamW. on July 29, 2002, at 23:42:02
> I stand by my answer and can back it fully. - Cam
No you cant back it up fully Cam, all anti-psychotics except Clozapine have some possibility of causing TD. Why does the official Seroquel website discuss TD and warn Seroquel can cause TD, even after short periods of time on it?
here is the way it works Cam:
Older Typical anti-psychotics (Haldol, Thorazine, etc.)-Strong, almost immiment chance of developing EPS and/or TD with any significant usage.
Newer atypical anti-psychotics (includes all atypicals except Clozapine): significantly lesser chance of developing TD, but still a possibility particularly when used at high doses for long time periods. EPS also occurs at lower rates than occurs in typical anti-psychotics, but still can occur. People with depression are more susceptible to atypical movement disorder side effects than are schizophrenics.
Clozapine (atypical anti-psychotic reserved for refractory schizophrenia): No reports of TD, basically safe. Clozapine is the ONLY atypical anti-psychotic which has really been studied adequately and is not covered up with drug company propaganda.
If I were to take an anti-psychotic after what Ive just recently experienced in the past year, the ONLY one Id take would be clozapine.
You cant back up your answer, because you are just plain wrong. And an asshole to boot.
Posted by CamW. on July 30, 2002, at 1:09:28
In reply to Re: TD info off the official Seroquel website, posted by LostBoyinNC1 on July 30, 2002, at 0:15:26
LB - So tell me, why doesn't Clozaril cause EPS or TD? The short answer is: for the same reason as Seroquel.
Also, you say that I follow drug company propaganda, but you quote the manufacter's "Official Seroquel Website". What's wrong with this picture?
Keep it up, dude and you'll be facing a defamation lawsuit (no joke).
Sincerely, Cam
Posted by cybercafe on July 30, 2002, at 7:03:42
In reply to Re: TD info off the official Seroquel website » LostBoyinNC1, posted by CamW. on July 30, 2002, at 1:09:28
> LB - So tell me, why doesn't Clozaril cause EPS or TD? The short answer is: for the same reason as Seroquel.
so wait a sec... you're saying seroquel actually doesn't cause EPS or TD?
can you back that up at all? ... btw i'm in canada too, if there is a place i can go (pharmacy? U of T?) and get information i would be able to do that....
Posted by CamW. on July 30, 2002, at 7:47:13
In reply to Re: Question for Cam, posted by cybercafe on July 29, 2002, at 23:00:55
Cybercafe - I have no idea what I said that could warrant such a response as I received to my original post. Many articles have been written denouncing serotonin's role (especially that of 5-HT2A) in the mechanism of action of the newer antipsychotis.
Most researchers now agree that it is the reversibility of binding to the D2 receptors that decreases the incidence of EPS with the newer agents. I will explain why I think that Seroquel should not cause EPS at any dose, just like Clozaril.
I will post my answer later today as I do not want emotiomsto cloud my answer. I believe that there are other explanations for Lost Boy's EPS than it being caused by Seroquel. I will be using the research of Phil Seeman, Shitij Kapur, Gary Remington, Herbert Mektzer, as well as other very, very respected researchers in the field of the psychopharmacology in schizophrenia to state my case.
Thank you gor you patience - Cam
Posted by Ron Hill on July 30, 2002, at 10:53:26
In reply to Re: Question for Cam, posted by LostBoyinNC1 on July 29, 2002, at 21:58:02
Posted by Ron Hill on July 30, 2002, at 11:33:45
In reply to Re: Question for Cam, posted by CamW. on July 29, 2002, at 21:23:49
Cam,
I have had the same concerns as you regarding some of Shawn's posts. Clearly, Shawn is bright and reads a lot of material. But he/she is young and does not have the educational and professional background to be making on-line diagnosis and overly generalized blanket statements.
--------
Shawn,
I mean you no disrespect nor do I want to hurt your feelings. I think your motives are well intentioned and that you truly want to help people. I have enjoyed reading some of the linked information you have posted. However, may I suggest that everything is not always black and white and, therefore, it is best to temper our writings to allow for the fact that a one size fits all approach is not really applicable in the area of psychotropic medication? Coming across as a young person with limited formal education in the field who thinks they know more than the leading experts (e.g. Dr.Seeman) is unbecoming.
Cam has been around the block more than a few times. There is truth to his/her concerns.
Please do not misunderstand me. I do not want to throw cold water on your eager desire for knowledge. Your energy and enthusiasm for learning is excellent. But if I could give you just one suggestion it would be for you to be on guard against reading a bunch of documents and immediately drawing an overly broad application of the concepts in said documents. Have you every done some research, drawn some conclusions, and a few days later read additional and/or conflicting research that causes you to totally rethink your original position?
I am with you, not against you.
-- Ron
-------------------------------------> Ah, I've been away for awhile and I now see that others are correct about the quality of information deteriorating on this board.
>
> Dr.Seeman has a misunderstanding of the processes involved in schizophrenia?
>
> Being able to cut and paste information off of a website (often out of context) or posting a URL replaces more than 50 years of study of a disorder?
>
> Personal subjective experience is closer to the truth than objective, reproduceable experiments?
>
> One person's personal experience is generalizable to humanity as a whole?
>
> Knowledge is not wisdom; especially when the information is gleaned from misunderstood and misinformed knowledge. Please learn the material before trying to educate, otherwise one can truly harm others.
>
> If anyone would like to hear a serious rebutal to Shawn's or Lost Boy's dangerous misinformation, I will gladly attempt it; but I will not do it for the sake of those whose minds are closed. It would just be a waste of my time. - Cam
>
>
>
>
Posted by LostBoyinNC1 on July 30, 2002, at 11:59:49
In reply to Re: TD info off the official Seroquel website » LostBoyinNC1, posted by CamW. on July 30, 2002, at 1:09:28
> LB - So tell me, why doesn't Clozaril cause EPS or TD? The short answer is: for the same reason as Seroquel.
>
> Also, you say that I follow drug company propaganda, but you quote the manufacter's "Official Seroquel Website". What's wrong with this picture?
>
> Keep it up, dude and you'll be facing a defamation lawsuit (no joke).
>
> Sincerely, CamCam, the lawsuit threat thing would never work. No attorney anywhere would take your case. To even get an attorney to take your case for a civil lawsuit, that target person must have some money or assets. Im disabled as a result of severe depression and am in a state of poverty. I have no money and am poor.
However, making threats of lawsuits could easily...very easily...backfire on you. Keep in mind that there is a very real possibility that you could end up being the one being sued. Particularly if you have any money or assets, which I do not know if you have or not.
Telling people who have experienced mild movement disorder side effects from Seroquel and whose diagnosis is major depression and not schizophrenia that you are going to sue them is not going to endear you to anyone, Cam. I would be much more careful how you talk to sick people on this board in the future if I were you. There are many, many individuals on this board who have suffered various psychiatric drug side effects they didnt appreciate. Some are serious side effects, others are rather trivial side effects. But your job as a medical professional is to listen to the sick, not threaten to sue them and tell them their experiences are not real, when youve not even physically met them or examined them.
LostBoyinNC
Posted by CamW. on July 30, 2002, at 13:24:44
In reply to Re: TD info off the official Seroquel website, posted by LostBoyinNC1 on July 30, 2002, at 11:59:49
I am not the only one who should watch what they say. I do not take slanderous comments or threats lightly, and I choose my words carefully.
I have been in this business long enough to know (and believe me, I know) that a mental illness does not give one carte blanche to do or say anything one wants to. One is still held accountable for one's actions, unless severely intellectually impaired (ie. unable to form and comprehend intent), which is not the case in this situation.
That is all I have to say on this situation; I am preparing a post stating my understanding of, and my theory of, the mechanism of action of the newer antipsychotics.
Thank you for your time. - Cam
Posted by CamW. on July 30, 2002, at 13:25:43
In reply to Re: Messages for Cam and Shawn » CamW., posted by Ron Hill on July 30, 2002, at 11:33:45
Posted by jazzdog on July 30, 2002, at 16:48:51
In reply to Stop taking Zyprexa, posted by Shawn. T. on July 29, 2002, at 3:31:34
Reading this thread makes me realize how essential Dr. Bob's civility monitoring is. This is one of the few forums I've found that hasn't broken down with sales pitches, fights, obscenities, and adolescent time-wasting.Cam, don't get drawn into this stuff. Dr. Bob will block LostBoy, and he will disappear into the ether of cyberspace. Meanwhile, it's great to have you back. Your expertise has been sorely missed.
It's Seweryn's sales pitch that worries me. Let's hope Dr. Bob deals with that too.
- Jane
Posted by CamW. on July 30, 2002, at 17:17:17
In reply to Re: Dr. Bob, where are you?, posted by jazzdog on July 30, 2002, at 16:48:51
Okay Jane, I won't get drawn in. I didn't realize what it was all about. I remember now. - Cam
P.S. I will do that post on antipsychotics and movement disorders as it is interesting and I got a lot of good info. I'll just hold off on it for a week or two and let it mature into a great post.
Go forward in thread:
Psycho-Babble Medication | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.