![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 21 of 21. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Ron Hill on January 17, 2001, at 0:16:55
Attention: SLS, JohnL, stjames, Cam W, Judy1, allisonm, JahL, et. al.
I would greatly appreciate any and all feedback regarding the sleep issue I discussed in the following post:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20010111/msgs/51755.html
Thank you in advance for your help.
-- Ron
Posted by Cam W. on January 17, 2001, at 10:27:08
In reply to SLS, JohnL, stjames, Cam W, Judy1, allisonm, JahL, posted by Ron Hill on January 17, 2001, at 0:16:55
Ron - Reasons for insomnia are varied and multifactorial. One should try to discover the physiologic reason for insomnia, rather than just good sleep hygiene and hypnotics, even non-addicting one's. Algorithms, as the one you have compiled, must be arrived at through controlled clinical trials in order for them to be validated and reliable. Metanalysis, when analyzed using the appropriate statistical measures, can give some guidelines; even then there are limitations.
The approach that you mention may work for your situation, but not for someone else. This algorithm of sleep control should be talked over with your doc (including all OTC/herbal use). The list of options you give may be a good alternative to other approaches, but it really depends on a person's reason(s) for insomnia, medical history, current diagnoses, etc.
Still, many of the approaches that your mention are "bandages", not "fixes". The best approach may be being referred to a sleep clinic to try to discover the reason for the insomnia and to resolve the insomnia that way, rather than just by using sleeping pills.
Hypnotics are recommended for short-term (10-14 day) use only. This may not be true for the newer hypnotics, such as trazodone (Desyrel), zopilcone (Imovane) and zaleplon (Starnoc - in Canada). I believe that the 14 day limit recommendation was implemented to address the inherent problems seen with barbiturates (overdose risk, dependence and tolerane) and benzodiazepines (dependence and tolerance).
I hope this is the type of feedback that you were looking for - Cam.
Posted by SLS on January 17, 2001, at 10:48:12
In reply to Re: SLS, JohnL, stjames, Cam W, Judy1, allisonm, JahL » Ron Hill, posted by Cam W. on January 17, 2001, at 10:27:08
Listen to Cam. But...
Since I spent some time putting together a post that Cam beat me to posting, I will include it anyway. It will give Cam an opportunity to critique it and serve to comment on each suggestion.
Looking forward to it.
One sleep algorithm has not yet been mentioned. Before going to bed, try reading some of Cam's brilliant and learned posts. I don't know what the hell he is talking about.
:-)
- Scott
-------------------------------------------------
Thankfully, there are quite a few options. As has been mentioned, you can add one of the sedating antidepressants to be taken at bedtime. These would include Remeron (mirtazapine), Serzone (nefazodone), Desyrel (trazodone), Elavil (amitriptyline), and Sinequan (doxepin). Generally speaking, the dosages of these drugs that are effective to produce sleep are much lower than those used for depression. Another option is to use a longer-acting hypnotic such as Ambien or Ativan that will help you get to sleep and stay asleep..You have two aspects to your insomnia:
- Falling asleep
- Staying asleep
You can take one of the potent short-acting drugs to initially get you to sleep.
- Halcion (triazolam)
- Sonata (Zaleplon)
- Ambien (zolpidem)
- Imovane (zopiclone)To stay asleep, you can either use low dosages of one of the previously listed soporific antidepressants or a longer-acting hypnotic.
- Ativan ( lorazepam)
- Restoril (temazepam)
- Klonopin (clonazepam)
- Ambien (zolpidem)
- Dalmane (flurazepam)* With the exception of Restoril, each of these longer-acting drugs is capable of helping you get to sleep. You may want to try Ambien or Ativan first to see if they are also capable of getting you to sleep. I have had trouble staying asleep. I use Ativan. I try to take it every second or third day. It prevents me from becoming unacceptably sleep-deprived. It is my hope that this kind of dosing will help prevent tolerance and perhaps even entrain my sleeping pattern. This is only an experiment. I just started taking Ativan this past week. I’ll let you know how it goes.
Perhaps you can find a way of optimizing a single drug by discovering the best way to utilize melatonin. I think Dove had mentioned that it is not advisable to take melatonin beyond 3:00am. I think that is even too late based upon what I know about the natural course of melatonin secretion. I think you are better off not taking it any later than 1:00am
I used to have success with a Halcion / Ativan combination when I could not get to sleep at all for days. (Parnate + desipramine combination)
I would be curious to know what you decide. I have a hunch that your doctor already has a good idea as to how to handle the situation.
Good luck.
- Scott
Posted by JahL on January 17, 2001, at 12:44:21
In reply to SLS, JohnL, stjames, Cam W, Judy1, allisonm, JahL, posted by Ron Hill on January 17, 2001, at 0:16:55
> Attention: SLS, JohnL, stjames, Cam W, Judy1, allisonm, JahL, et. al.
>
> I would greatly appreciate any and all feedback regarding the sleep issue I discussed in the following post:
>
> http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20010111/msgs/51755.html
>
> Thank you in advance for your help.
>
> -- Ron
Hi Ron.Whilst I'm certainly an expert in *experiencing* insomnia I think some of the other names you mention in yr title are better qualified to advise on its treatment...
However FWIW, I think I've tried all yr proposed 'remedies' (& others besides) & have found them mildly helpful at best (probably Remeron is my preferred option; it's a pretty gentle drug @ the proposed doses)
Unfortunately the only substance to consistently help me with sleep is good old-fashioned pot (not a wise treatment choice, I should add).
I'm sure Cam is right when he says that insomnia is best addressed by treating any underlying cause, which in yr case I imagine would be the Bipolar II itself.
Jah.
Posted by judy1 on January 17, 2001, at 15:50:53
In reply to SLS, JohnL, stjames, Cam W, Judy1, allisonm, JahL, posted by Ron Hill on January 17, 2001, at 0:16:55
Why do I get to be last? And especially with my hypersensitivity :-)!!! Anyway, lose the prozac- it's the biggest offender with mood instability in bipolar disorder. Just my and about 14 shrinks I've seen opinion- Take care, Judy
Posted by Greg on January 17, 2001, at 19:10:43
In reply to SLS, JohnL, stjames, Cam W, Judy1, allisonm, JahL, posted by Ron Hill on January 17, 2001, at 0:16:55
Ron,
I'm not on the list but.....
I take Zyprexa and Neurontin for my BP II, they not only have been a godsend for the BP symptoms, but they are somewhat sedating. I get about 6 1/2-7 hours of sack time a night and my sleep is good quality...finally. I supplement with Ambien if needed.
Greg
> Attention: SLS, JohnL, stjames, Cam W, Judy1, allisonm, JahL, et. al.
>
> I would greatly appreciate any and all feedback regarding the sleep issue I discussed in the following post:
>
> http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20010111/msgs/51755.html
>
> Thank you in advance for your help.
>
> -- Ron
Posted by allisonm on January 17, 2001, at 20:17:27
In reply to SLS, JohnL, stjames, Cam W, Judy1, allisonm, JahL, posted by Ron Hill on January 17, 2001, at 0:16:55
Ron,
I'm no expert on this. I went to a sleep lab complaining of insomnia three years ago this month and was diagnosed with depression. I took Remeron for more than 2 years. It was a godsend in helping me sleep. I have read that some people find a small dose of Remeron helps them sleep at night. I never took less than 15 mg, and was at 30-45 for most of the time I was on it.
I was taken off the Rem in October and now am taking Neurontin in the morning (200mg) and at night to help me sleep (800mg). The Neurontin helps me fall asleep, but not nearly as fast (or hard) as Remeron. However, I don't have the fog in the morning. I usually sleep through the night, or if I wake up, I can fall back asleep, but I often wake up too early and cannot fall back asleep (5 a.m.) I'm also taking Wellbutrin.
Hope this helps.
Allison
Posted by Ron Hill on January 18, 2001, at 16:09:39
In reply to Re: SLS, JohnL, stjames, Cam W, Judy1, allisonm, JahL, posted by allisonm on January 17, 2001, at 20:17:27
Cam, Scott, Jah, Judy, Greg, and Allison:
Many thanks to each of you for your responses. Good information and I am saving all of your posts. The friendship and camaraderie extended by the contributors to this site is refreshing. Thank you for donating some of your time to my issues!
-- Ron
Posted by stjames on January 19, 2001, at 23:44:58
In reply to SLS, JohnL, stjames, Cam W, Judy1, allisonm, JahL, posted by Ron Hill on January 17, 2001, at 0:16:55
I'm changing what I said B4, I missed the fact you are BP. Since your existing meds work well, save sleep, I was say try a benzo instead of Remeron.
Why ? It is a careful ballence of meds that are needed to control BP. IT is well known AD's can push a BP into manic phase, if taken alone without a counter agent. Adding the Remeron for sleep might throw things off; I suspect 7.5 mgs will not be enough. Switching Remeron for existing AD might work but why mess with what is working ? Benzo's are often used in BP for sleep and to control cycling. My choices would be Atavin, Restriol, or Klonipin, in order of length of action. Early morning waking indicates a longer acting benzo.
I take 15 mgs Remeron, which usually works, but if
I am not well asleep by 3 am I can't take more Remeron as it would take too long to work and make me tried in the morning. Atavin is great for getting me to sleep quickly. Restriol (sp?) is little longer acting and Klonipin, long acting, is best if you have trouble through out the night.Sleep is so important in the control of BP, I feel
benzo's are justified due to the benifits of good sleep and control of cycling.James
Posted by Ron Hill on January 20, 2001, at 10:02:36
In reply to Re: SLS, JohnL, stjames, Cam W, Judy1, allisonm, J, posted by stjames on January 19, 2001, at 23:44:58
James,
Thank you for your follow-up. I very much appreciate the input.
-- Ron
----------------------------------------> I'm changing what I said B4, I missed the fact you are BP. Since your existing meds work well, save sleep, I was say try a benzo instead of Remeron.
>
> Why ? It is a careful ballence of meds that are needed to control BP. IT is well known AD's can push a BP into manic phase, if taken alone without a counter agent. Adding the Remeron for sleep might throw things off; I suspect 7.5 mgs will not be enough. Switching Remeron for existing AD might work but why mess with what is working ? Benzo's are often used in BP for sleep and to control cycling. My choices would be Atavin, Restriol, or Klonipin, in order of length of action. Early morning waking indicates a longer acting benzo.
>
> I take 15 mgs Remeron, which usually works, but if
> I am not well asleep by 3 am I can't take more Remeron as it would take too long to work and make me tried in the morning. Atavin is great for getting me to sleep quickly. Restriol (sp?) is little longer acting and Klonipin, long acting, is best if you have trouble through out the night.
>
> Sleep is so important in the control of BP, I feel
> benzo's are justified due to the benifits of good sleep and control of cycling.
>
> James
Posted by mars on January 20, 2001, at 21:51:52
In reply to Re: SLS, JohnL, stjames, Cam W, Judy1, allisonm, JahL » allisonm, posted by Ron Hill on January 18, 2001, at 16:09:39
Hi Ron -
I've had a long, difficult history with insomnia, even had to be hospitalized for it. If medication doesn't provide you with enough relief over the long haul, have you looked at neurofeedback?
Check out http://www.eegspectrum.com
I did neurofeedback this past year for depression, and was impressed...but had to quit because of cost. If you have any questions, let me know: i'd add more about my experiences, but I'm drowning in tears from starting reboxetine and think I'd better keep this post short =:-)
Also, there's an excellent book about neurofeedback, "A Symphony in the Brain", which came out in 2000. There's a website about it:
http://www.symphonyinthebrain.com/
Best wishes. I know how difficult it can be to deal with, and I've taken every med in the book. Right now I am getting sleep now every night for the first time in a long time.
mary
Posted by michael on January 21, 2001, at 2:00:55
In reply to Re: SLS, JohnL, stjames, Cam W, Judy1, allisonm, J, posted by stjames on January 19, 2001, at 23:44:58
James,
A quick question for you... when you say "Early morning waking indicates a longer acting benzo." Are you saying that if one wakes too early, a longer acting benzo might be appropriate?
I think that's what you're suggesting, but just wanted to double check. I have a small supply of clonazepam and lorazepam, but I am attempting to keep them in reserve, rather than use them regularly...
My Pdoc suggested using diphenhydramine (50mg - 75mg)for trouble getting to sleep, and I try to use that more than the others, since it has a much shorter half-life, and is more easy to replace... However, given the short half-life, I sometimes still run into the problem of waking too early...
Your suggestion makes sense, and makes me feel a bit more comfortable with turning to the benzo's on occassion - I just wanted to know if I was interpreting what you said as you intended. Thanks, michael
> I'm changing what I said B4, I missed the fact you are BP. Since your existing meds work well, save sleep, I was say try a benzo instead of Remeron.
>
> Why ? It is a careful ballence of meds that are needed to control BP. IT is well known AD's can push a BP into manic phase, if taken alone without a counter agent. Adding the Remeron for sleep might throw things off; I suspect 7.5 mgs will not be enough. Switching Remeron for existing AD might work but why mess with what is working ? Benzo's are often used in BP for sleep and to control cycling. My choices would be Atavin, Restriol, or Klonipin, in order of length of action. Early morning waking indicates a longer acting benzo.
>
> I take 15 mgs Remeron, which usually works, but if
> I am not well asleep by 3 am I can't take more Remeron as it would take too long to work and make me tried in the morning. Atavin is great for getting me to sleep quickly. Restriol (sp?) is little longer acting and Klonipin, long acting, is best if you have trouble through out the night.
>
> Sleep is so important in the control of BP, I feel
> benzo's are justified due to the benifits of good sleep and control of cycling.
>
> James
Posted by dj on January 21, 2001, at 2:35:10
In reply to Neurofeedback option for sleep disorders » Ron Hill, posted by mars on January 20, 2001, at 21:51:52
> I did neurofeedback this past year for depression, and was impressed...but had to quit >because of cost. If you have any questions, let >me know: i'd add more about my experiences,Mary,
When you feel a bit more up to it would you please talk more about your experience and what impressed you about it. How many sessions did you do, how often and what did you note? Also what was the cost for you?
dj, checking it out...
P.S. - Keepin in line with the PB meds. focus were you doing meds at the time and were you able to adjust them any, as a result of the neuro. you participated in?
Posted by Ron Hill on January 21, 2001, at 11:27:37
In reply to Neurofeedback option for sleep disorders » Ron Hill, posted by mars on January 20, 2001, at 21:51:52
Mary,
Thank you so much for thinking of me, particularly while you are having side effect problems of your own. I plan to research the neurofeedback treatment option. Thanks!
Mary, based on what I know about your situation (which is very little), I am concerned about your Reboxetine trial. Specifically, just because the meds were obtained free of charge (per your R+E+L+N thread) this, in and of itself, is not a basis for drug effacacy. What does your pdoc say?
I only bring this up out of genuine concern for your well being. At the same time, however, you know what is best for you way better than I do, so take what I've said with a grain of salt.
As you know, Reboxetine is a fairly potent SNRI with a high reported rate of insomnia as a side effect. Given that you have struggled with insomnia so much in the past, I'm hopeful that the Reboxetine does not bring this on again.
On the other hand, Reboxetine may be just what you need. In any event, we in babble-land are here for you, wishing you well and standing by your side.
Thanks again for the neurofeedback links!
-- Ron
------------------------------------------> Hi Ron -
>
> I've had a long, difficult history with insomnia, even had to be hospitalized for it. If medication doesn't provide you with enough relief over the long haul, have you looked at neurofeedback?
>
> Check out http://www.eegspectrum.com
>
> I did neurofeedback this past year for depression, and was impressed...but had to quit because of cost. If you have any questions, let me know: i'd add more about my experiences, but I'm drowning in tears from starting reboxetine and think I'd better keep this post short =:-)
>
> Also, there's an excellent book about neurofeedback, "A Symphony in the Brain", which came out in 2000. There's a website about it:
>
> http://www.symphonyinthebrain.com/
>
> Best wishes. I know how difficult it can be to deal with, and I've taken every med in the book. Right now I am getting sleep now every night for the first time in a long time.
>
> mary
Posted by mars on January 21, 2001, at 12:57:57
In reply to Re: Neurofeedback option for sleep disorders » mars, posted by Ron Hill on January 21, 2001, at 11:27:37
Hi Ron ~
> Mary,
>
> Thank you so much for thinking of me, particularly while you are having side effect problems of your own. I plan to research the neurofeedback treatment option. Thanks!You are very welcome. Having astounded my psychiatrist in Oklahoma by not sleeping for 30 straight days, I want to share *anything* I can. And that's what nice about being here in babbleland ~ I get to feel like I have something to offer every so often. And I like to help - actually, I can't help that, I'm a Virgo =;)
I wish I had been able to do the neurofeedback longer, but from the limited experience I had I would definitely recommend it as an option if meds aren't working. You are obviously a smart guy - when you check out the neurofeedback materials I'd really like to hear what you think.
> Mary, based on what I know about your situation (which is very little), I am concerned about your Reboxetine trial....What does your pdoc say?
>
> I only bring this up out of genuine concern for your well being. At the same time, however, you know what is best for you way better than I do, so take what I've said with a grain of salt.I really appreciate your concern - no problem with that. I had been interested in reboxetine before I got my "donation" - and I've been doing this too long (23 years) not to be careful with such powerful medications. And I would never, ever take a med w/o talking to my pdoc first. She was concerned as well that I might experience insomnia with it, but given how I've been doing, she thought it would be fine for me to try it. She also knows that if I have some kind of crisis I know how to get help.
Day two of the rebox was a lot of tears, and I had a major blowup with my father, which probably would have happened anyway. There was some good stuff, too, though, like actually going out into the world for a little while, feeling some energy, experiences of grieving and sadness that were pretty intense, but ultimately healing. I dunno. Right now I feel really good. I've been numb for so long it's cathartic to be *feeling* again. I didn't sleep much last night, though, and I'll be careful with that.
Good luck, Ron, and thanks for your concern.
mary
Posted by stjames on January 21, 2001, at 16:53:53
In reply to benzos...? » stjames, posted by michael on January 21, 2001, at 2:00:55
> James,
>
> A quick question for you... when you say "Early morning waking indicates a longer acting benzo." Are you saying that if one wakes too early, a longer acting benzo might be appropriate?
>
> I think that's what you're suggesting, but just wanted to double check. I have a small supply of clonazepam and lorazepam, but I am attempting to keep them in reserve, rather than use them regularly...
>
> My Pdoc suggested using diphenhydramine (50mg - 75mg)for trouble getting to sleep,James here.....
Correct ! diphenhydramine (Benadryl) like many older antihistamines is sedating, though most build tolerance to it. Keep in mind that the TCA's
(tricyclics and tetracyclics) were developed from
Benadryl. Many make good meds for sleep and can be taken at low dose, ie 75 mgs or less. I have used Doxipin or Remeron for 16 yrs and gotten good sleep from them every night.Take whatever works for you but if you are not getting good sleep every night talk over this issue and what meds to use with your doc. Good sleep has very direct effects on mood and stress level.
James
Posted by Ron Hill on January 21, 2001, at 20:32:12
In reply to Re: reboxetine my pdoc » Ron Hill, posted by mars on January 21, 2001, at 12:57:57
Best wishes Mary. Life is difficult sometimes, huh? I have a feeling things are going to get easier for you soon. In the meantime, we are here if you need to talk.
-- Ron
--------------------------------------> Hi Ron ~
>
> > Mary,
> >
> > Thank you so much for thinking of me, particularly while you are having side effect problems of your own. I plan to research the neurofeedback treatment option. Thanks!
>
> You are very welcome. Having astounded my psychiatrist in Oklahoma by not sleeping for 30 straight days, I want to share *anything* I can. And that's what nice about being here in babbleland ~ I get to feel like I have something to offer every so often. And I like to help - actually, I can't help that, I'm a Virgo =;)
>
> I wish I had been able to do the neurofeedback longer, but from the limited experience I had I would definitely recommend it as an option if meds aren't working. You are obviously a smart guy - when you check out the neurofeedback materials I'd really like to hear what you think.
>
> > Mary, based on what I know about your situation (which is very little), I am concerned about your Reboxetine trial....What does your pdoc say?
> >
> > I only bring this up out of genuine concern for your well being. At the same time, however, you know what is best for you way better than I do, so take what I've said with a grain of salt.
>
> I really appreciate your concern - no problem with that. I had been interested in reboxetine before I got my "donation" - and I've been doing this too long (23 years) not to be careful with such powerful medications. And I would never, ever take a med w/o talking to my pdoc first. She was concerned as well that I might experience insomnia with it, but given how I've been doing, she thought it would be fine for me to try it. She also knows that if I have some kind of crisis I know how to get help.
>
> Day two of the rebox was a lot of tears, and I had a major blowup with my father, which probably would have happened anyway. There was some good stuff, too, though, like actually going out into the world for a little while, feeling some energy, experiences of grieving and sadness that were pretty intense, but ultimately healing. I dunno. Right now I feel really good. I've been numb for so long it's cathartic to be *feeling* again. I didn't sleep much last night, though, and I'll be careful with that.
>
> Good luck, Ron, and thanks for your concern.
>
> mary
Posted by Neal on January 22, 2001, at 14:26:58
In reply to Re: reboxetine my pdoc » Ron Hill, posted by mars on January 21, 2001, at 12:57:57
> Having astounded my psychiatrist in Oklahoma by not sleeping for 30 straight days, I want to share *anything* I can.
mars- I'm truely astounded too. If you'd rather not talk about it, just don't respond, but I'm wondering what it would be like not to sleep for thirty straight days. Also, was it straight insomnia or a manic phase?
Posted by Ron Hill on January 22, 2001, at 20:02:40
In reply to Re: reboxetine my pdoc » Ron Hill, posted by mars on January 21, 2001, at 12:57:57
Mary,
How did work go for you today (Monday)?
-- Ron
---------------------------------> Hi Ron ~
>
> > Mary,
> >
> > Thank you so much for thinking of me, particularly while you are having side effect problems of your own. I plan to research the neurofeedback treatment option. Thanks!
>
> You are very welcome. Having astounded my psychiatrist in Oklahoma by not sleeping for 30 straight days, I want to share *anything* I can. And that's what nice about being here in babbleland ~ I get to feel like I have something to offer every so often. And I like to help - actually, I can't help that, I'm a Virgo =;)
>
> I wish I had been able to do the neurofeedback longer, but from the limited experience I had I would definitely recommend it as an option if meds aren't working. You are obviously a smart guy - when you check out the neurofeedback materials I'd really like to hear what you think.
>
> > Mary, based on what I know about your situation (which is very little), I am concerned about your Reboxetine trial....What does your pdoc say?
> >
> > I only bring this up out of genuine concern for your well being. At the same time, however, you know what is best for you way better than I do, so take what I've said with a grain of salt.
>
> I really appreciate your concern - no problem with that. I had been interested in reboxetine before I got my "donation" - and I've been doing this too long (23 years) not to be careful with such powerful medications. And I would never, ever take a med w/o talking to my pdoc first. She was concerned as well that I might experience insomnia with it, but given how I've been doing, she thought it would be fine for me to try it. She also knows that if I have some kind of crisis I know how to get help.
>
> Day two of the rebox was a lot of tears, and I had a major blowup with my father, which probably would have happened anyway. There was some good stuff, too, though, like actually going out into the world for a little while, feeling some energy, experiences of grieving and sadness that were pretty intense, but ultimately healing. I dunno. Right now I feel really good. I've been numb for so long it's cathartic to be *feeling* again. I didn't sleep much last night, though, and I'll be careful with that.
>
> Good luck, Ron, and thanks for your concern.
>
> mary
Posted by mars on January 23, 2001, at 3:44:47
In reply to Re:To mars, posted by Neal on January 22, 2001, at 14:26:58
Neal ~
At the time I had not been diagnosed as bipolar II. Looking back, my pdoc (with whom I also did therapy) was very good, but the information about bipolar II hadn't been added to the DSM. He'd was the first to treat me with SSRIs (this started in late '89 with prozac). After my initial success with prozac i developed severe anxiety. from then on it was a process of trying a string of meds. he tried me on lithium carbonate during a previous severe episode of depression, and i could not tolerate even very small amounts. i find in general that if i am panicked or severely stressed i am hypersensitive to meds.
i don't know that i'd characterize that state i was in as a mania (actually, i was fairly calm). i was in an extreme state of quiet, withdrawn panic. During my period of sleeplessness I also almost totally stopped eating (highly unusual for me) and lost fifteen pounds in a month. i also was exercising a great deal, which in general has not been my tendency. (the three years previous to this time i had actually been taking better care of myself than i ever had before: educated myself about nutrition, lost weight in a slow, healthy way, exercised. i was really trying to what i could to help myself.)
there were also, of course, a lot of situational factors that i can't really discuss here. i can say, though, that i've never been quite the same after the insomnia/hospitalization period. for instance, i had always written quite a lot, very interested in film and music, read a great deal of literature and european philosophy, psychology (freud and lacan), literary theory as a means of sustaining myself, and i was active in keeping myself educated about how my meds were understood to work. since that time, which was about 9 years ago, i haven't been able to do those things. i don't mean to be melodramatic, but i often feel that something inside me died. i wish i could figure out what happened.
best,
mars
> > Having astounded my psychiatrist in Oklahoma by not sleeping for 30 straight days, I want to share *anything* I can.
>
> mars- I'm truely astounded too. If you'd rather not talk about it, just don't respond, but I'm wondering what it would be like not to sleep for thirty straight days. Also, was it straight insomnia or a manic phase?
Posted by mars on January 23, 2001, at 3:48:23
In reply to Re: Monday » mars, posted by Ron Hill on January 22, 2001, at 20:02:40
thanks for asking, ron - not as many tears, although susceptible to them (i did cry a lot when i saw the pictures of the animals in the galapagos islands, where they had the oil spill).
bad headache, probably due to lack of caffeine ingestion. sleeping fitfully, but no real insomnia (i'm a night owl anyway).
mood very up and down, but i don't feel manic, and the downs aren't too bad.
best,
mars
> Mary,
>
> How did work go for you today (Monday)?
>
> -- Ron
> ---------------------------------
>
> > Hi Ron ~
> >
> > > Mary,
> > >
> > > Thank you so much for thinking of me, particularly while you are having side effect problems of your own. I plan to research the neurofeedback treatment option. Thanks!
> >
> > You are very welcome. Having astounded my psychiatrist in Oklahoma by not sleeping for 30 straight days, I want to share *anything* I can. And that's what nice about being here in babbleland ~ I get to feel like I have something to offer every so often. And I like to help - actually, I can't help that, I'm a Virgo =;)
> >
> > I wish I had been able to do the neurofeedback longer, but from the limited experience I had I would definitely recommend it as an option if meds aren't working. You are obviously a smart guy - when you check out the neurofeedback materials I'd really like to hear what you think.
> >
> > > Mary, based on what I know about your situation (which is very little), I am concerned about your Reboxetine trial....What does your pdoc say?
> > >
> > > I only bring this up out of genuine concern for your well being. At the same time, however, you know what is best for you way better than I do, so take what I've said with a grain of salt.
> >
> > I really appreciate your concern - no problem with that. I had been interested in reboxetine before I got my "donation" - and I've been doing this too long (23 years) not to be careful with such powerful medications. And I would never, ever take a med w/o talking to my pdoc first. She was concerned as well that I might experience insomnia with it, but given how I've been doing, she thought it would be fine for me to try it. She also knows that if I have some kind of crisis I know how to get help.
> >
> > Day two of the rebox was a lot of tears, and I had a major blowup with my father, which probably would have happened anyway. There was some good stuff, too, though, like actually going out into the world for a little while, feeling some energy, experiences of grieving and sadness that were pretty intense, but ultimately healing. I dunno. Right now I feel really good. I've been numb for so long it's cathartic to be *feeling* again. I didn't sleep much last night, though, and I'll be careful with that.
> >
> > Good luck, Ron, and thanks for your concern.
> >
> > mary
This is the end of the thread.
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