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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 18 to 42 of 65. Go back in thread:
Posted by Sara T on May 28, 2000, at 19:06:47
In reply to Procrastination/Desperation, posted by forth Meg on May 28, 2000, at 17:02:14
> Procrastination's a joke to most people, but
Some medications that have helped with depression have helped with procrastination - a LITTLE - that is, when my energy returns I start doing *more* - sometimes working incredibly hard - but usually it's unfocused, irrelevant work that wastes a lot of time on unimportant details. In fact the one time I was fired, ironically, was during one of these high-energy periods, where I felt I was working incredibly hard, but kept missing deadlines because I was zooming off in so many directions.The unfocused energy, missed dealines, zooming off in too many directions at once, all sound ADD to me. Another myth about ADD is that people with ADD can't concentrate on anything, when in fact, they hyperconcentrate on things that are of high interest.
I do not presume to tell you that you have ADD, so don't get me wrong. But many of the things you say remind me of my own foiables and I know that I am ADD, although I didn't realize it until this past year. I have also suffered from depression, which is commonly comorbid with ADD, for longer than I care to think about.
Sara T.
Posted by forth meg on May 28, 2000, at 21:06:20
In reply to Re: Procrastination/Desperation, posted by Sara T on May 28, 2000, at 19:06:47
> > Procrastination's a joke to most people, but
> Some medications that have helped with depression have helped with procrastination - a LITTLE - that is, when my energy returns I start doing *more* - sometimes working incredibly hard - but usually it's unfocused, irrelevant work that wastes a lot of time on unimportant details. In fact the one time I was fired, ironically, was during one of these high-energy periods, where I felt I was working incredibly hard, but kept missing deadlines because I was zooming off in so many directions.
>
> The unfocused energy, missed dealines, zooming off in too many directions at once, all sound ADD to me. Another myth about ADD is that people with ADD can't concentrate on anything, when in fact, they hyperconcentrate on things that are of high interest.
>
> I do not presume to tell you that you have ADD, so don't get me wrong. But many of the things you say remind me of my own foiables and I know that I am ADD, although I didn't realize it until this past year. I have also suffered from depression, which is commonly comorbid with ADD, for longer than I care to think about.
>
> Sara T.Yeah, I know that does sound like ADD. But those are only occasional periods I've had on medications. For the most part my problem is just pure inertia.
I have looked at the symptoms of ADD - and I just don't have them.
But I do appreciate your input on this.
Posted by medlib on May 29, 2000, at 13:05:22
In reply to Re: Procrastination as Disease - or rebellion?, posted by CarolAnn on May 26, 2000, at 8:43:43
Mark et al--
Procrastination is my defining personal characteristic; a lifetime of practice has honed it into the very essence of my dysfunction. Typically, I have even procrastinated on posting about procrastination!
I have recognized truth in every post on this thread; it's fascinating that we each approach procrastination differently. Maybe it should be viewed as a syndrome--one set of behaviors, with similar results, which can be triggered by many different causes.
For me, it is very, very difficult to begin what I cannot finish.
As a child, I learned very early that my parents viewed their role as "helping" me to improve upon whatever I did. My mother used to relate with a kind of baffled pride that, as a toddler, I was too "stubborn" to talk; she knew I could, because she often overheard me practicing speaking in my room. She never saw the sadness in that. Whatever I accomplished or became *always* led to expectations of more, or better. When I was successful in skipping the first grade, it was not accepted as "enough." They immediately began looking for evidence that I "needed" to skip another grade--so I skipped the fourth grade as well. Academically, it was just as successful; socially, it was a complete disaster.
Naturally, it occurred to me that projects which were never completed successfully could not serve as launching pads for more projects. Similarly, there could be no pressure to finish what had not yet been started. Eventually, I learned to protect myself with procrastination; the potential failure embedded in every success could be avoided by simply postponing success.
I need not ever be truly impoverished if I avoid paying the bills. I need not risk failure in a professional job if I never quite graduate. (Once, I completed a degree program and never filed for the diploma.)
To me, "potential" is a four-letter word; it robs my present of its rewards. Ultimately, if "I am" is not sufficient, "I will be" can have no reality. I buried my mother eighteen months ago; I allowed her to bury me much earlier.
Medlib--in mourning for both of us.
Posted by brian on May 29, 2000, at 14:02:01
In reply to Re: Procrastination Syndrome?, posted by medlib on May 29, 2000, at 13:05:22
> Mark et al--
>
> Procrastination is my defining personal characteristic; a lifetime of practice has honed it into the very essence of my dysfunction. Typically, I have even procrastinated on posting about procrastination!
>
> I have recognized truth in every post on this thread; it's fascinating that we each approach procrastination differently. Maybe it should be viewed as a syndrome--one set of behaviors, with similar results, which can be triggered by many different causes.
>
> For me, it is very, very difficult to begin what I cannot finish.
>
> As a child, I learned very early that my parents viewed their role as "helping" me to improve upon whatever I did. My mother used to relate with a kind of baffled pride that, as a toddler, I was too "stubborn" to talk; she knew I could, because she often overheard me practicing speaking in my room. She never saw the sadness in that. Whatever I accomplished or became *always* led to expectations of more, or better. When I was successful in skipping the first grade, it was not accepted as "enough." They immediately began looking for evidence that I "needed" to skip another grade--so I skipped the fourth grade as well. Academically, it was just as successful; socially, it was a complete disaster.
>
> Naturally, it occurred to me that projects which were never completed successfully could not serve as launching pads for more projects. Similarly, there could be no pressure to finish what had not yet been started. Eventually, I learned to protect myself with procrastination; the potential failure embedded in every success could be avoided by simply postponing success.
>
> I need not ever be truly impoverished if I avoid paying the bills. I need not risk failure in a professional job if I never quite graduate. (Once, I completed a degree program and never filed for the diploma.)
>
> To me, "potential" is a four-letter word; it robs my present of its rewards. Ultimately, if "I am" is not sufficient, "I will be" can have no reality. I buried my mother eighteen months ago; I allowed her to bury me much earlier.
>
> Medlib--in mourning for both of us.
Here's something I've noticed. Having insight into why I procrastinate doesn't stop me from continuing to do so. I can sit in my room, thinking, "I've gotta clean up a little." But I put it off, sometimes until it is too unbearable to stand the mess. The same is true with work. I procrastinate, often creatively. I become interested in other things, or obsess over psychological symptoms, get suddenly sleepy -- whatever. The point is this: procrastination isn't the same as being unaware. I am very aware when I'm procrastinating.But there's some breakdown in the planning/execution process. Where does this happen? What part of me, for example, consciously notices the collecting mess on my desk, then "decides" not to pick it up before it accumulates into a disaster? Why do I become sleepy in the middle of large projects? Why can the smallest, simplest parts of large projects seem so daunting?
I can find answers to these questions, and I can even change my reactions, temporarily. But there's a larger pattern at play. How do I apply procrastination-breaking techniques such as making lists, etc, when the very act of doing so seems impossible to do consistently?
It's very frustrating. Any suggestions?
Posted by Sara T on May 29, 2000, at 16:22:40
In reply to Re: Procrastination Syndrome?, posted by brian on May 29, 2000, at 14:02:01
Brian -
Since procrastination is a hallmark of Adult ADD (not that I mean to imply that that is your problem), it might be useful to you to look at some of the techniques in books about ADD that address this very issue. Driven to Distration by Ratey and Hallowell is a great source, and there are others.
One thing I got from that book was the rule, "Never handle something twice". That refers to paperwork. It means that you get a bill, you deal with it then and you don't have to go back to it. Of course, you need a workable system of doing things and that requires that the PHYSICAL space you work in be organized. Most important, too, is to break the dreaded task down into smaller parts and take it a step at a time. There are coaches, yes, people who can help you get started and keep going. Again, look up some of the ADD sites (CHADD, for instance) and you will see them listed. Once you have your "system" in place, you must not let it fall apart (easier said than done). Again, a coach can help.
For me, ritalin has been a godsend because I often can't build up the forward momentum to get started on many things, much to my own detriment.The addition of the stimulant to my AD gets me up and going, but it isn't everything.
Changing a lifetime of maladapive habits is HARD work. You have to be motivated to do it. In the end, the answer to procrastination is in our own hands.
Sara T.
Posted by brian on May 29, 2000, at 17:48:09
In reply to Re: Procrastination Syndrome?, posted by Sara T on May 29, 2000, at 16:22:40
> Brian -
>
> Since procrastination is a hallmark of Adult ADD (not that I mean to imply that that is your problem), it might be useful to you to look at some of the techniques in books about ADD that address this very issue. Driven to Distration by Ratey and Hallowell is a great source, and there are others.
>
> One thing I got from that book was the rule, "Never handle something twice". That refers to paperwork. It means that you get a bill, you deal with it then and you don't have to go back to it. Of course, you need a workable system of doing things and that requires that the PHYSICAL space you work in be organized. Most important, too, is to break the dreaded task down into smaller parts and take it a step at a time. There are coaches, yes, people who can help you get started and keep going. Again, look up some of the ADD sites (CHADD, for instance) and you will see them listed. Once you have your "system" in place, you must not let it fall apart (easier said than done). Again, a coach can help.
>
> For me, ritalin has been a godsend because I often can't build up the forward momentum to get started on many things, much to my own detriment.The addition of the stimulant to my AD gets me up and going, but it isn't everything.
>
> Changing a lifetime of maladapive habits is HARD work. You have to be motivated to do it. In the end, the answer to procrastination is in our own hands.
>
> Sara T.Thanks Sara,
It is hard work, no question about it. I have read a few books about ADD, including the one that you suggested. I'm not sure what mix of habits, psychology and chemicals make organization and motivation to attack large projects such a challenge for me.
When I moved to NYC last summer, I tried dexetrine for awhile. Actually, I wasn't prescribed it; I just borrowed from a friend who has a prescription. I took it according to my friend's doctor's orders for him. I must say that it really did provide energy and motivation. It really seemed to clear out the fog. It also caused sleeplessnes if I took it too late.
I am seeing a therapist in addition to taking celexa. I think I'll ask him about ADD comorbidity in anxiety/depression. I'll also see about getting some tips or help from him on working out an organizational system.
The funny thing is -- and I'd be interested to hear if this describes you -- I can put forth a great amount of work for short bursts. I'm like life's sprinter. I'll excersize for 4 months, get in great shape, then just let it go. I can write when I absolutely need to -- I write for a living -- then I just get off track and way behind. In other words, I can follow a schedule for a while, but then I just drop it.
Thanks for your suggestions. I'll definately look into this further.
Brian
Posted by Sara T on May 29, 2000, at 19:39:55
In reply to Re: Procrastination Syndrome?, posted by brian on May 29, 2000, at 17:48:09
> > Brian -
> >
> > Since procrastination is a hallmark of Adult ADD (not that I mean to imply that that is your problem), it might be useful to you to look at some of the techniques in books about ADD that address this very issue. Driven to Distration by Ratey and Hallowell is a great source, and there are others.
> >
> > One thing I got from that book was the rule, "Never handle something twice". That refers to paperwork. It means that you get a bill, you deal with it then and you don't have to go back to it. Of course, you need a workable system of doing things and that requires that the PHYSICAL space you work in be organized. Most important, too, is to break the dreaded task down into smaller parts and take it a step at a time. There are coaches, yes, people who can help you get started and keep going. Again, look up some of the ADD sites (CHADD, for instance) and you will see them listed. Once you have your "system" in place, you must not let it fall apart (easier said than done). Again, a coach can help.
> >
> > For me, ritalin has been a godsend because I often can't build up the forward momentum to get started on many things, much to my own detriment.The addition of the stimulant to my AD gets me up and going, but it isn't everything.
> >
> > Changing a lifetime of maladapive habits is HARD work. You have to be motivated to do it. In the end, the answer to procrastination is in our own hands.
> >
> > Sara T.
>
> Thanks Sara,
>
> It is hard work, no question about it. I have read a few books about ADD, including the one that you suggested. I'm not sure what mix of habits, psychology and chemicals make organization and motivation to attack large projects such a challenge for me.
>
> When I moved to NYC last summer, I tried dexetrine for awhile. Actually, I wasn't prescribed it; I just borrowed from a friend who has a prescription. I took it according to my friend's doctor's orders for him. I must say that it really did provide energy and motivation. It really seemed to clear out the fog. It also caused sleeplessnes if I took it too late.
>
> I am seeing a therapist in addition to taking celexa. I think I'll ask him about ADD comorbidity in anxiety/depression. I'll also see about getting some tips or help from him on working out an organizational system.
>
> The funny thing is -- and I'd be interested to hear if this describes you -- I can put forth a great amount of work for short bursts. I'm like life's sprinter. I'll excersize for 4 months, get in great shape, then just let it go. I can write when I absolutely need to -- I write for a living -- then I just get off track and way behind. In other words, I can follow a schedule for a while, but then I just drop it.
>
> Thanks for your suggestions. I'll definately look into this further.
>
> BrianBrian-
In short, YES. In fact that's the type of thing I do that's gotten me to the low place I'm in today. For example, I did a bang up job on my architecture thesis, but I failed to follow through with liscensure. I'm the soul of innconsistency, which is also one of those ADD traits. Its one of the things my husband complains most bitterly about, that I don't finish or follow through on important things. And, yes, I get myself organized and then let it all fall apart. I'm like that with exercize too.Bad news for a parent of a child like mine who needs considerable scheduling to keep him on track (he's mildly autistic, with ADHD and LD).
But I'm trying to learn and it is a day by day process, and when depression gets in the way I have to learn to pick myself up and get back on track again. That's what I'm working on with my therapist now.Depression, anxiety are commonly comorbid with ADD. If you look into it, be careful to go to someone with experience in Adult ADD.
Sara T.
Posted by S.D. on May 29, 2000, at 20:53:52
In reply to Re: Procrastination as Disease, posted by JohnL on May 26, 2000, at 3:51:03
>When I finally found the medication that
>treated my anhedonia, I became interested in
>everyday normal activities--including work. So,
>when I cured the anhedonia, it also cured the
>procrastination.Your description sounds much like my experience, except I still have the anhedonia/procrastination in spite of not otherwise being depressed (Parnate helped me eventually and I've been off it now a couple of months).
Was it the case for you that you continued to experience anhedonia even after other depression symptoms cleared (with or without meds)? What med is/was it that treated your anhedonia/procrastination?peace and health,
S.D.
Posted by Noa on May 30, 2000, at 11:47:56
In reply to Re: Procrastination Syndrome?, posted by medlib on May 29, 2000, at 13:05:22
Wow, Medlib. You expressed it so eloquently. Thank you.
Posted by Noa on May 30, 2000, at 11:53:07
In reply to Re: Procrastination Syndrome?, posted by Sara T on May 29, 2000, at 16:22:40
I agree with Sara that strategies written for people with ADD can help anyone dealing with procrastination, with or without ADD. I think many of us non-ADD folks could have benefitted from specific intervention/training in organizational strategies of the kind that some self-help books for ADD spell out.
Posted by Noa on May 30, 2000, at 11:54:48
In reply to Re: Procrastination as Disease, posted by S.D. on May 29, 2000, at 20:53:52
This aspect of procrastination makes sense to me, too. If an activity is not able to bring enjoyment of any kind, even just the ability to take pride in accomplishing a task, then the motivation to do the activity simply isn't there.
Posted by Noa on May 30, 2000, at 12:06:29
In reply to Re: Procrastination as Disease, posted by S.D. on May 29, 2000, at 20:53:52
Another aspect of procrastination for me these days is the sense of futility I feel. Normally, I would feel good about getting a job done, such as cleaning the apartment. It would feel like an accomplishment and I would feel good about acheiving it. Over time, as I became more chronically depressed and immobilized, the mess accumulated more and more. I would go a long time before cleaning it up, only to find that I let it get messy soon afterward. After a while, I started to feel, "why bother?" What is the point of putting out effort to correct it if I am just going to let it become a problem again soon. It is a feeling of hopelessness about being mired in a cycle. Of not feeling the effort is worthwhile, of not feeling any sense of power to achieve real change.
Posted by brian on May 30, 2000, at 12:24:17
In reply to Re: Procrastination as Disease, posted by Noa on May 30, 2000, at 12:06:29
> Another aspect of procrastination for me these days is the sense of futility I feel. Normally, I would feel good about getting a job done, such as cleaning the apartment. It would feel like an accomplishment and I would feel good about acheiving it. Over time, as I became more chronically depressed and immobilized, the mess accumulated more and more. I would go a long time before cleaning it up, only to find that I let it get messy soon afterward. After a while, I started to feel, "why bother?" What is the point of putting out effort to correct it if I am just going to let it become a problem again soon. It is a feeling of hopelessness about being mired in a cycle. Of not feeling the effort is worthwhile, of not feeling any sense of power to achieve real change.
I get that, Noa. In college I once constructed a long, lazy pseudo-philisophical argument against the "obsession to organize." I said that, us messy people are more in touch with reality, because eventually everything falls apart. Therefore, effort ultimately leads nowhere.
Ah, college! Those we're the days of King Subjectivity, when life's consequences we're measured in letters. Unfortunately, we "creative types" live in a world better suited to Felix Ungers.
I get in cycles where I just let things go. It's as though I temporarily lose the thread and just let life happen, like a neurotic buddha. Then I get back on my game and solemnly swear never to let the moss collect again. Until it collects, and life becomes again a passive verb.
What to do about these ebbs and flows. I haven't found an answer. Perhaps I'll go back to my "I'm right, society is wrong" way of thinking. The money sucks, but I sure did feel a lot better about myself.
Posted by JennyR on May 30, 2000, at 20:43:14
In reply to Re: Procrastination as Disease, posted by Noa on May 30, 2000, at 12:06:29
I recently went to a workshop on overcoming perfectionism. The presenter mentioned that many perfectionists are also procrastinators. I am definitely both. She said the reason is that a perfectionist doesn't want to do anything unless they are absolutely sure they can do it perfectly and completely. So they will put things off and put things off. This made a lot of sense to me.
Posted by CarolAnn on May 31, 2000, at 8:29:58
In reply to Re: Procrastination and Perfectionism, posted by JennyR on May 30, 2000, at 20:43:14
Jenny, your post makes sense to me, too. In fact, I often call myself, "the lazy perfectionist", because perfectionism is the primary reason that I procrastinate! Can you list any of the *ways* that the workshop suggested to overcome this problem? I would really appreciate it. Best wishes! CarolAnn
Posted by Noa on May 31, 2000, at 12:09:17
In reply to Re: Procrastination and Perfectionism(JennyR), posted by CarolAnn on May 31, 2000, at 8:29:58
One way I know of is to make a deal with yourself to work for a very limited amount of time, so that the goal is not to finish the task, which brings out perfectionistic tendencies, but just to start it.
An example is the timed cleaning routine that Janice (I think it was Janice) suggested to us. Set a timer and clean for 12 minutes maximum each day. Don't think in terms of completion. Just do the time.
Posted by Janice on May 31, 2000, at 16:52:57
In reply to Re: Procrastination and Perfectionism(JennyR), posted by Noa on May 31, 2000, at 12:09:17
and then you get the mental and emotional freedom.
Some tips from a converted (and I do mean converted) lazy, procastinating slob:
buy a digital timer
make the cleaning/organizing session short
and do it everyday
best to turn things into ritualsstart small.
If you have any questions, please ask
Janice
Posted by Cindy W on June 1, 2000, at 9:49:05
In reply to it's kind of like a jail sentence…just do the time, posted by Janice on May 31, 2000, at 16:52:57
> and then you get the mental and emotional freedom.
>
> Some tips from a converted (and I do mean converted) lazy, procastinating slob:
>
> buy a digital timer
> make the cleaning/organizing session short
> and do it everyday
> best to turn things into rituals
>
> start small.
>
> If you have any questions, please ask
>
> JaniceJennyR, CarolAnn, Noa, and Janice, I'm a procrastinator (due to both laziness and perfectionism) and also have OCD. You're so right that just starting is the hardest part. But I hate to make any more rituals (due to the OCD) so will just "do the time" I guess.--Cindy W
Posted by Janice on June 1, 2000, at 11:40:21
In reply to Re: it's kind of like a jail sentence…just do the time, posted by Cindy W on June 1, 2000, at 9:49:05
hi
the following example is what i mean by 'ritual':
as soon as you get home from work and hang your coat up…spend 10 minutes cleaning.
So EVERYDAY after hanging up your coat, you start cleaning. There are no questions about WHEN or HOW LONG you'll be cleaning for.
I'm not sure if this type of ritual could become an OCD issue Cindy. Maybe ritual isn't the right word for what I meant.
Hope your treefrog is well, Janice
Posted by KarenB on June 1, 2000, at 12:17:22
In reply to welcome back Cindy W…, posted by Janice on June 1, 2000, at 11:40:21
Hi Guys,
I've got to say, the hardest part for me is getting started. Once I do, my compulsive nature takes over and no dirt is safe. What I have done lately is pick one room or project and agree with myself to start it the following day, no matter what. It has worked. Last week, I re-organized my children's bedroom closet. Once I was going, I ended up organizing the hall closet and our bedroom drawers.
Another trick is not to let anything pile up - like someone said, don't handle anything twice. I throw away junk mail the minute I get it into my hands and rip off the payment stub of bills along with the envelope and put it in the "to be paid" drawer.
This doesn't seem like a big deal but I have found that if I have many things lingering in the back of my mind that need to be done, it creates a constant, low level of stress that does not help with the fatigue aspect of my illness. If my environment is under control. I feel more in control, for what it's worth.
Karen
Posted by Noa on June 1, 2000, at 16:17:12
In reply to Re: Procrastination and Cleanliness, posted by KarenB on June 1, 2000, at 12:17:22
Karen, sounds good, and in the days before my depression took on its recent form, that worked for me, too. But it's a whole 'nother universe in here now.
Posted by Cindy W on June 2, 2000, at 0:57:48
In reply to welcome back Cindy W…, posted by Janice on June 1, 2000, at 11:40:21
> hi
>
> the following example is what i mean by 'ritual':
>
> as soon as you get home from work and hang your coat up…spend 10 minutes cleaning.
>
> So EVERYDAY after hanging up your coat, you start cleaning. There are no questions about WHEN or HOW LONG you'll be cleaning for.
>
> I'm not sure if this type of ritual could become an OCD issue Cindy. Maybe ritual isn't the right word for what I meant.
>
> Hope your treefrog is well, JaniceJanice, thank you very much for the welcome back! Will try your suggestion for making something I do routinely as a cue for cleaning (since my OCD isn't related to cleaning, and since my house is always a mess, it couldn't hurt!).BTW, the treefrog is doing marvelously!--Cindy W
Posted by KarenB on June 2, 2000, at 16:25:57
In reply to Re: Procrastination and Cleanliness » KarenB, posted by Noa on June 1, 2000, at 16:17:12
> Karen, sounds good, and in the days before my depression took on its recent form, that worked for me, too. But it's a whole 'nother universe in here now.
Noa,
I don't know where you are but if you are anywhere near Denver, I'll come over and help you clean up that mess. It would be an honor:)
I'm not kidding...
Karen
Posted by Noa on June 2, 2000, at 16:53:50
In reply to Re: Procrastination and Cleanliness, posted by KarenB on June 2, 2000, at 16:25:57
Karen, thanks! Not near Denver, tho. You are so kind.
You sound like an organized person. Maybe you could start a business helping people get their places together and develop a system to keep them clean.
Posted by Sara T on June 2, 2000, at 21:28:08
In reply to Re: Procrastination and Cleanliness » KarenB, posted by Noa on June 2, 2000, at 16:53:50
> You sound like an organized person. Maybe you could start a business helping people get their places together and develop a system to keep them clean.
There are people who do that.
Sara T
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