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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 12 of 12. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Jon Barnes on May 28, 2000, at 19:55:36
Hi Gang,
Would like to know if anyone knows of any good information which is written in layman's terms about the neurotransmitters and how they work. I've got the basics down (serotonin, dopamine, ne) I think, but don't understand things like alpha 1, post vs pre synapitic, etc. Any good books or web pages out there which covers this stuff?
Thanks
JB
Posted by FredPotter on May 28, 2000, at 21:10:01
In reply to Info on Neurotransmitters, posted by Jon Barnes on May 28, 2000, at 19:55:36
try this
http://www.beatcfsandfms.org/html/BrainChem.html
Posted by Cam W. on May 28, 2000, at 22:07:50
In reply to Re: Info on Neurotransmitters, posted by FredPotter on May 28, 2000, at 21:10:01
> try this
>
> http://www.beatcfsandfms.org/html/BrainChem.htmlJon - This is a good website describing neurotransmitters and their action, but the baseball analogy really messed me up. =^ƒ
- Cam
Posted by FredPotter on May 28, 2000, at 23:38:19
In reply to Re: Info on Neurotransmitters, posted by Cam W. on May 28, 2000, at 22:07:50
> > try this
> >
> > http://www.beatcfsandfms.org/html/BrainChem.html
>
> Jon - This is a good website describing neurotransmitters and their action, but the baseball analogy really messed me up. =^ƒ
> - CamMe too - well it was a good analogy that petered out as things got more complex. I wouldn't let that put anyone off though. Like all good web-sites things can be traced to the original research papers. I like the tests for testing for noradrenalin activity in your own home. I wonder though Cam, is there anything in this mercury amalgam story? I thought it was dead in the water. Can Hg etc really clog receptors?
Fred
Posted by JohnL on May 29, 2000, at 6:09:46
In reply to Info on Neurotransmitters, posted by Jon Barnes on May 28, 2000, at 19:55:36
> Hi Gang,
>
> Would like to know if anyone knows of any good information which is written in layman's terms about the neurotransmitters and how they work. I've got the basics down (serotonin, dopamine, ne) I think, but don't understand things like alpha 1, post vs pre synapitic, etc. Any good books or web pages out there which covers this stuff?
> Thanks
> JBI haven't read it--just glanced through it at the bookstore--but there's a rather large book called Psychopharmacology that seemed to get into all the details you are interested in. I think it's price tag was about $150. It looked like a pretty seriously detailed book.
I have found the best information sources right here. AndrewB is very knowledgable with the kinds of things you are interested in. He can probably address any specific questions you might have.
A book worth reading, in my opinion, is called "The Successful Treatment of Brain Chemical Imbalance". It's a very modest $30 or so. Each page is full of interesting and useful stuff, with a lot of focus on neurotransmitters. And it's written in a way that a layman can understand. It has a section for phsycians too, for the more sophisticated reader. It's available at bookstores, online bookstores, and directly from www.drjensen.com.
Another book I found NOT to be helpful was "Dysthymia, the Spectrum of Chronic Depression". Though it was written by a highly esteemed international psychiatrist, it had no useful information for the layman. The whole book just basically says there's a lot of overlap between different psychiatric conditions. That's about it.
JohnL
Posted by Cam W. on May 29, 2000, at 7:04:25
In reply to Re: Info on Neurotransmitters, posted by FredPotter on May 28, 2000, at 23:38:19
, is there anything in this mercury amalgam story? I thought it was dead in the water. Can Hg etc really clog receptors?
>
> FredFred - I can't remember the exact explanation behind the debunking of mercury amalgam, but I think I saw something on • www.quackwatch.com •. I believe that Dr.Barrett has debunked that theory quite eloquently. I don't have time to surf there now, but do so at your leisure. There are many psudoscientific claims debunked on this site. For a real hoot, read the "Cheers" and "Jeers" columns. They show how polarized society can be. - Cam
Posted by Snowie on May 29, 2000, at 9:13:12
In reply to Re: Info on Neurotransmitters, posted by FredPotter on May 28, 2000, at 21:10:01
Interesting, but did I miss the info on the neurotransmitter GABA, which plays such an important role in anxiety and panic, or was it not there?
Snowie
Posted by FredPotter on May 29, 2000, at 16:31:54
In reply to Re: Info on Neurotransmitters, posted by Snowie on May 29, 2000, at 9:13:12
true - GABA hardly mentioned, nor 5-HTP. At 6 pm I took the required quantity of tyrosine (does that mean it's L-tyrosine?) - 1400mg in my case, along with some vitamin B6 to test if I became enlivened after 10-40 minutes. That would show there was something clogged up in my norepinephrine transmission. Nothing happened till 4:30 am when I woke feeling refreshed so I got up. At 6 am I had a gigantic anxiety attack. So the result was not at all clear cut.
Posted by stjames on May 30, 2000, at 2:09:26
In reply to Re: Info on Neurotransmitters, posted by Cam W. on May 29, 2000, at 7:04:25
> >
> > Fred
>
> Fred - I can't remember the exact explanation behind the debunking of mercury amalgam, but I think I saw something on • www.quackwatch.com •.Jmaes here...
Thanks Cam, go to
http://www.quackwatch.com/cgi-bin/mfs/24/home/sbinfo/public_html/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/Tests/mercurytests.html?221#mfs
Posted by boBB on June 2, 2000, at 23:55:55
In reply to Info on Neurotransmitters, posted by Jon Barnes on May 28, 2000, at 19:55:36
JB, I checked out the http://www.beatcfsandfms.org/html/BrainChem.html site, but I wouldn't give it two stars on my five star scale.
The problem I had was that it went from introducing the concept of a neurotransmitter right into talking drugs. We would never learn what role a neurotransmitter plays in a healthy brain. Even if we agree that someone has a neurochemical imbalance and that psychmeds could improve the balance, MOST of your neurochemical balance will continue to function properly. In med school, you might go through a year of learning healthy anatomy and physiology before your got to a year of pathology, and only then after a year of studying pathologies of diseases before you started studying treatments.
pre-synaptic means things that happen inside the neuron (brain cell) before (pre) the synapse. All of the blocking and mimicking drugs work at the synapse, but the call them post-synaptic.
you probably understand synapses - nerves fire electric signals, but nerves are separated across gaps, and the neurochemicals carry signals across the gaps. There is some really cool chemistry that explains how the neurochemical turns back into electricity, but that is another story. The big deal with psychopharmacolgy and neurochemistry these days is what is going on at the gap. Any one gap might have numerous "receptor sites" that are sensitive to one chemical or another. (some pictures would help, here). Things change all the time at these synapses, they might get dull to one chemical, or develop more receptors. And some of the chemical floats back into the structure of the synapse and some is lost or consumed (metabolized) in the gap.
Drugs can either act like a neurochemical, or block a receptor for a neurochemical, or stimulate the synapse to release a neurochemical, among other things.
Isn't this already on Dr. Bob' site somewhere? And somebody else can fill in the "agony" labels - there’s agonists, partial agonists, antagonists - depending on if they block or mimic or stimulate a chemical.
Of more concern, I would think, for a person interested in neurotransmitters is what they DO.
For example, GABA is an inhibiting neurotransmitter.
Serotonin and dopamine are reinforcing neurotransmitters.
Norepenephrine is a stimulating or exciting neurotransmitter.
Acetecholine is the primary neurotransmitter that works at the muscle end of nerve fibers - it is acetecholine that operates your muscles, making some venitian-blind looking arrangement of cells in your muscle open or close so your muscle will expand or contract.
Your neurons might be mobilizing both NorE and GABA and whichever one prevails will determine whether you get a reaction, from the NorE, or, if the GABA "wins" whatever nerve network is getting dosed will freeze, or do nothing.
Dopamine is found exclusively in networks from the frontal area - mostly the frontal lobes, to the amygdala/hypocampus, which is in the limbic system, inside the temporal lobes, (behind your temples). Dopamine networks (dopaminergic) are associated with "pleasure centers." these are areas of the brain associated with pleasure. (DUh!). When they implant mice with probes that let them self stimulate these areas, they will often stimulate rather than eat or sleep, until they starve to death. Evolutionary psychologists suggest we evolved these networks to learn what was good for us in terms of survival.
Basically, dopamine signals tell neurons to "keep doing this" Since dopamine is found mostly in the front of the brain, where we have complex networks that we use for making plans and thinking complex thoughts, it is associated with some of our persistent drives. If we attenuate our dopamine networks to seeking, say, cocaine, they will set up their own little plan to tell us "find more cocaine. Yeh, there’s some. Take it. Ummmm good. Oh, darn, Im out, find more, etc." In a well functioning brain, these dopamine networks will form around healthy behaviors, like hugs (not drugs) or going to work and study or having fun at the lake or whatever we are *supposed* to do. But most of this behavioral planning and reinforcement is the same kind of addiction mechanism, so we might always wonder if what we are doing is really an original, well thought out plan or if it is just an echo of whatever was fun last time.
Norepenephrine AKA noradrenaline is what gets things going. When we have some sort of stimulus, NorE is the first chemical that spreads through our networks. If we spread NorE with no stimulus, it feels like anxiety or panic. I forget the ironic twist of fate that makes drugs that simulate NorE effective at treating panic and anxiety, but many of them stimulate dopamine to. NorE is like the phone ringing and dopamine is like and answer, so if it rings, and there is no answer, we might take Dexedrine or Ritalin to make it ring louder and more consistently so we will get that good dopa feeling. But see, now I am digressing to talking drugs rather than normal function.
Serotonin is a reinforcer, like dopamine, but it is found more in the middle and back of the upper brain (cerebral cortex) Serotonin is associated with more mundane tasks, like movements and repetitive tasks. That is why exercise helps boost serotonin levels - repetition produces serotonin and serotonin facilitates repetition. repeatedly.
There are a bunch of other neurotransmitters. These BIG 5 get a lot of attention, though. Most neurons that are sensitive to NorE are also sensitive to Adrenaline, which is not kept inside the structure of the synapse like most neurochemicals, but rather washes in through the blood, more like a drug. When your pituitary(?) releases a dose of adrenocorticotropic hormone your adrenal gland give off a shot of adrenaline, which not only bumps up your sympathetic nervous system (the red line nerves that constrict blood vessels, increase heart rate and what not - the other side - the "blue" in my book, does the opposite, slows breathing, opens arteries and slows the heart) but adrenaline also washes into your NorE sensitive neurotransmitters (like a shot of crystal meth, or coke) and sets your brain on track looking for something familiar up in the neuron networks - some dopamine response and serotonin response. If it doesn't get a response, well, you get a full-blown fight or flight, and unless you are trained well, your liable to start acting out one way or the other.
A good book on the neurochemistry that deals with deviations from the "normal" states, as part of everyday life (like as a result of fatigue, or fright) is called Chemistry of Conscious States. The same author (sorry, I don't have his name handy) wrote the neurochemistry volume for Scientific American's most recent Brain book series.
Oh, yeh - Acetecholine - when you go to sleep, nore- dopa- and serotonin levels drop and this other chemical comes into play. It does not fire neurons along well organized dopamine and serotonin networks. You see, experience and learning seems to build serotinon and dopamine connections, so things that are connected by these two chemicals seem familiar. But when nore- dopa- serotinon levels drop (these are aminergic transmitters) the acetecholine gets more of a wild, unconnected kind of thoughts going. instead of the stimulation coming from the sensory side, kicked up by some norE coming down a nerve input, The acetecholine just kind of fires the dopa- serotonin networks apparently at random, that is how we dream.
I could prattle and babble on and on, but lets see who picks at this. There are probably some small flaws in my explanations, but I think this is a handy sketch of basic functions. If it is flawed, it is because it is oversimplified. But I also find people who can talk all kinds of advanced microbiology, but are not familiar with the basic function of the brain machine. I think we should be learning this much about the time we get into junior high school. IF we can learn the capitals of all 50 states, why not learn the basics of how our brain works at about the same time we are going to start to be exposed to choices about using tobacco, coffee, pot or cocaine?boBB
graduate, Magna Cume Loudmouth
University of Hard Knocks
High School Drop Out
copyright released
flunked spelling
public domain
autodidact
birds
bees
DAC
> Hi Gang,
>
> Would like to know if anyone knows of any good information which is written in layman's terms about the neurotransmitters and how they work. I've got the basics down (serotonin, dopamine, ne) I think, but don't understand things like alpha 1, post vs pre synapitic, etc. Any good books or web pages out there which covers this stuff?
> Thanks
> JB
Posted by SLS on June 3, 2000, at 12:41:59
In reply to Re: Info on Neurotransmitters, posted by boBB on June 2, 2000, at 23:55:55
Hi BoBB.
I won't pick too much, as there isn't a whole lot wrong to pick at. The only question I have is what was your motivation to give such a dissertation? What salient point were you trying to make?
> JB, I checked out the http://www.beatcfsandfms.org/html/BrainChem.html site, but I wouldn't give it two stars on my five star scale.
>
> The problem I had was that it went from introducing the concept of a neurotransmitter right into talking drugs. We would never learn what role a neurotransmitter plays in a healthy brain.I thought it was very good.
> Even if we agree that someone has a neurochemical imbalance and that psychmeds could improve the balance, MOST of your neurochemical balance will continue to function properly.
You should see my P.E.T. scans. If you were to, I doubt you would have made the previous statement. 80% of it is blue. The percentage is higher if you exclude the occipital lobes.
> pre-synaptic means things that happen inside the neuron (brain cell) before (pre) the synapse. All of the blocking and mimicking drugs work at the synapse, but the call them post-synaptic.
No. But that's O.K. For instance, the NE promoting effect of Remeron is produced by its ability to antagonize presynaptic NE alpha-2 receptors. Clonidine, a hypotensive agent, exerts its effect by stimulating presynaptic NE alpha-2 receptors.
> For example, GABA is an inhibiting neurotransmitter.
>
> Serotonin and dopamine are reinforcing neurotransmitters.
>
> Norepenephrine is a stimulating or exciting neurotransmitter.I still think we should also try to think in terms of neural pathways.
> Your neurons might be mobilizing both NorE and GABA and whichever one prevails will determine whether you get a reaction, from the NorE, or, if the GABA "wins" whatever nerve network is getting dosed will freeze, or do nothing.
This is pretty close. It takes pathways into account.
> Dopamine is found exclusively in networks from the frontal area - mostly the frontal lobes, to the amygdala/hypocampus, which is in the limbic system, inside the temporal lobes, (behind your temples).
Ouch. Be careful when using words like "exclusively" when dealing with the brain. (Remember Parkinson's)
> Dopamine networks (dopaminergic) are associated with "pleasure centers." these are areas of the brain associated with pleasure. (DUh!). When they implant mice with probes that let them self stimulate these areas, they will often stimulate rather than eat or sleep, until they starve to death. Evolutionary psychologists suggest we evolved these networks to learn what was good for us in terms of survival.
I believe my dopamine levels are extremely low, yet I self-stimulate all of the time. How do you account for this?
I guess I must be a bit further along the evolutionary scale than the reptile.
> Norepenephrine AKA noradrenaline is what gets things going. When we have some sort of stimulus, NorE is the first chemical that spreads through our networks. If we spread NorE with no stimulus, it feels like anxiety or panic.
This is a very interesting concept. I think I'll look into it. Thanks.
> Serotonin is a reinforcer, like dopamine, but it is found more in the middle and back of the upper brain (cerebral cortex) Serotonin is associated with more mundane tasks, like movements and repetitive tasks. That is why exercise helps boost serotonin levels - repetition produces serotonin and serotonin facilitates repetition. repeatedly.
Serotoninergic neurons are usually inhibitory. This is why SSRIs very often produce apathy.
> I could prattle and babble on and on,
No way! :-)
> but lets see who picks at this.
:-)
> There are probably some small flaws in my explanations, but I think this is a handy sketch of basic functions. If it is flawed, it is because it is oversimplified.
BoBB.
> But I also find people who can talk all kinds of advanced microbiology, but are not familiar with the basic function of the brain machine. I think we should be learning this much about the time we get into junior high school.
Why?
> I think we should be learning this much about the time we get into junior high school. IF we can learn the capitals of all 50 states, why not learn the basics of how our brain works at about the same time we are going to start to be exposed to choices about using tobacco, coffee, pot or cocaine?
I don't think these two equate well. Which would have been easier for you to learn at age 13? Also, I'm not sure that under this sort of program, it would be wise to leave out understanding the structure and function of the heart, autonomic nervous system, lungs and trachea, liver, oncogenes, the vascular system, and the process that produces arterial plaques, just to demonstrate why they should not snort, smoke, drink alcohol, or eat fatty foods. When you were 13, how well did you learn the processes responsible for the evolution of a class O star from gas cloud to the initiation of fusion reactions to the expulsion of iron from its core when it supernovas, and why we are all here because of it? Pedantic, I know, but I lectured about this stuff to a group of boy scouts when I was 13. Maybe it is a good idea. It's something to think about, anyway.
You need to leave these kids some room for them to learn about journalism, anyway.
> boBB
> graduate, Magna Cume Loudmouth
> University of Hard Knocks
> High School Drop Out
> copyright released
> flunked spelling
> public domain
> autodidact
> birds
> bees
> DAC
- Scott, N.D. (Doctor of Nothing)
Posted by Sal on June 3, 2000, at 22:00:03
In reply to Re: Info on Neurotransmitters » boBB, posted by SLS on June 3, 2000, at 12:41:59
The only question I have is what was your motivation to give such a dissertation? What salient point were you trying to make?
That's two questions. But maybe we will never know why the person who called themself boBB did what they did. I think maybe boBB is gone.
>
> > Even if we agree that someone has a neurochemical imbalance and that psychmeds could improve the balance, MOST of your neurochemical balance will continue to function properly.
>
> You should see my P.E.T. scans. If you were to, I doubt you would have made the previous statement. 80% of it is blue. The percentage is higher if you exclude the occipital lobes.Your motor functions seem intact. Your rational abilities seem sound, at least based on your ability to form insights based on your experience and learning. Overall, you seem to exhibit signs of a functional human being, if you don't mind me saying so.
> > pre-synaptic means things that happen inside the neuron (brain cell) before (pre) the synapse. All of the blocking and mimicking drugs work at the synapse, but the call them post-synaptic.
>
> No. But that's O.K. For instance, the NE promoting effect of Remeron is produced by its ability to antagonize presynaptic NE alpha-2 receptors. Clonidine, a hypotensive agent, exerts its effect by stimulating presynaptic NE alpha-2 receptors.Thats right. Presynaptic refers to receptors on the sending side of the synapse as well.
>
> > Dopamine is found exclusively in networks from the frontal area - mostly the frontal lobes, to the amygdala/hypocampus, which is in the limbic system, inside the temporal lobes, (behind your temples).
>
> Ouch. Be careful when using words like "exclusively" when dealing with the brain. (Remember Parkinson's)Yep. The ole guy mighta shoulda said "primarily." But he is on the right track to presume that dopamine is found in a particular area of the brain, primarily toward the front, and involving pathways that connect frontal areas with limbic areas.
A more precise description of neurochemical *geography* would read like: "The seretoninergic system develops from the midline of the floor of the fourth ventricle. Therefore, the highest concentrations of 5-HT are found in the dorsal raphe nucleus of the brain. It is here that it is thought to control sleep to a certain extent. It acts as an inhibitor. In other words, when the 5-HT receptors are stimulated, sleep is inhibited. (copied)
>
> > Dopamine networks (dopaminergic) are associated with "pleasure centers." these are areas of the brain associated with pleasure. (DUh!). When they implant mice with probes that let them self stimulate these areas, they will often stimulate rather than eat or sleep, until they starve to death. Evolutionary psychologists suggest we evolved these networks to learn what was good for us in terms of survival.
>
> I believe my dopamine levels are extremely low, yet I self-stimulate all of the time. How do you account for this?Levels of dopamine are relative to the density of receptors sites requiring dopamenergic service, and metabolism of dopamine. Your low dopamine levels might inspire you to continue to self-stimulate. Upregulation of receptor sites might be involved. Your synapses might have sprouted more receptor sites each requireing more dopamine, and your constant production of dopamine might have developed an overgrowth of dopaminergic metabolites. Shallow water runs swift, and can deliver as many gallons per minute through a smaller reach, compared to a slow deep river.
> > Serotonin is a reinforcer, like dopamine, but it is found more in the middle and back of the upper brain (cerebral cortex) Serotonin is associated with more mundane tasks, like movements and repetitive tasks. That is why exercise helps boost serotonin levels - repetition produces serotonin and serotonin facilitates repetition. repeatedly.
>
> Serotoninergic neurons are usually inhibitory. This is why SSRIs very often produce apathy.Or it could be that SSRIs elevate serotonin levels without providing a behavioral referant to which the network of neural pathways is oriented. That is why we are not supposed to take drugs (the illegal kind that causes euphoria). If we relieve our brains with chemicals that provide a sense of fun (activation of dopamenergic pathways) we will not learn to activate those same pathways with hugs and stuff. At least that is the folklorish psychobabble they offer in treatment centers.
Yes indeed, many sources say there have been no excitatory neurotransmitters yet isolated. Serotonin inhibits sleep, as does perhaps NorE. But think about it, if sleep is inhibited, what are you? AWAKE! Maybe this writer was working out of some older books, where they talked about the effect of the neurotransmitter on the function of the pathway and of behavior rather than precise chemical effect at the receptor site. Maybe books like Vertical Control of Cortical Functions, would be my guess.
> Why?
>
> > I think we should be learning this much about the time we get into junior high school. IF we can learn the capitals of all 50 states, why not learn the basics of how our brain works at about the same time we are going to start to be exposed to choices about using tobacco, coffee, pot or cocaine?
>
> I don't think these two equate well. Which would have been easier for you to learn at age 13? Also, I'm not sure that under this sort of program, it would be wise to leave out understanding the structure and function of the heart, autonomic nervous system, lungs and trachea, liver, oncogenes, the vascular system, and the process that produces arterial plaques, just to demonstrate why they should not snort, smoke, drink alcohol, or eat fatty foods. When you were 13, how well did you learn the processes responsible for the evolution of a class O star from gas cloud to the initiation of fusion reactions to the expulsion of iron from its core when it supernovas, and why we are all here because of it? Pedantic, I know, but I lectured about this stuff to a group of boy scouts when I was 13. Maybe it is a good idea. It's something to think about, anyway.
>
> You need to leave these kids some room for them to learn about journalism, anyway.My experience is that some of the best journalists are those who picked it up somewhere outside of their schooling. Many of them are the ones more willing to question institutional paradigms.
But a quick tour of the web sites on neurochemicals, and the literature on neurochemistry in medical search engines relates mostly to neuropathology. With the exception of a few (older) books like "Vertical Control of..." (anybody have a copy they want to sell?) few sources strive for a comprehensive model of how a healthy brain works, or how the healthy part of a diseased brain works. I would not encourage imprinting the current body of pathology oreinted neurochemistry or neurophysiology on young teens. I feel it would be better to let them mature enough to be able to question authority, and perhaps develop the skills to advance the science rather than repeating what todays school of science already think it knows.
I agree. I'm not sure the universities have much to offer 13 year olds that would be relevant to their lives.
This is the end of the thread.
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