![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 11 to 35 of 36. Go back in thread:
Posted by Cindy W on May 17, 2000, at 21:37:24
In reply to Re: Rage andsex, posted by Noa on May 17, 2000, at 15:56:13
> More sex sounds good, but....will it mean more babies????? That is probably not what you need right now.
Noa and Cynthia, there's always the one-person sex...that doesn't make babies and is a lot easier to institute when one needs to substitute something to replace a bad behavior! ;)
(when I used to want to lose weight, I'd try this and my hunger went away for a while)--Cindy W
Posted by Cynthia M on May 18, 2000, at 10:01:16
In reply to Re: Rage andsex, posted by Cindy W on May 17, 2000, at 21:37:24
Cindy W - What a great way to lose weight- did it work ? How much did you lose?
Posted by Cindy W on May 18, 2000, at 19:57:44
In reply to Re: Rage andsex, posted by Cynthia M on May 18, 2000, at 10:01:16
> Cindy W - What a great way to lose weight- did it work ? How much did you lose?
Cynthia, back when I was anorexic (first year of college), I lost from l40 down to 90 lbs. in two months, by masturbating, "marching" while watching tv (around and arouand the room), and by cutting my food intake (ate one carton of yogurt, an apple, and a couple of slices of sandwich meat each day). Ah, the good old days! Now it takes me months to lose l lb. (I don't have the energy to masturbate or exercise, and cutting my food intake is a lot harder to do). ;)--Cindy W
Posted by Cynthia M on May 19, 2000, at 10:59:30
In reply to Re: Rage andsex, posted by Cindy W on May 18, 2000, at 19:57:44
Cindy- It totally sucks that as we age other things seem to be more important than weight and appearance- If I had no other interest in life I could probably be very succesful at losing weight ... It is just that these pesky little kids demand so much time attention and love, and I wouldn't have it any other way... There are times that I tell my husband to remind me that I really do like sex and It is worth the effort to "force " myself to relax! Thanks for the support - I got a great book called Bodily Harm and i have already read all of it (got it yesterday) there is a great deal of helpful and sensible information in it and it really focuses on the control that we all have with in ourselves.... I like the way of thinking. No cutting today so far but I am not sure the reason, the book , sex ( last night and this morning) or 100mgs of Seroquel at 3 am...... I willhave to keep doing all or work on a process of elimination...well, maybe not the sex... Thanks so much to all of you for your support and understanding.. This was the only forum that actually has been supportive of me....Love to you all - Cyndy
Posted by Janice on May 19, 2000, at 17:50:47
In reply to Control!, posted by Cynthia M on May 19, 2000, at 10:59:30
Hello Cynthia,
I've been empathizing with you for the past couple of weeks and all your problems. I don't really have much to add from what everyone else has, but I can share a bit of my personal experience (with raging) that may give you some insights.
My pdoc explained it to me as a type of seizure (I have no interest in science and would always insist he put everything in a layperson's version) and that basically it just had to run its course (mine were usually no longer than 2 days, and no shorter than about 7 hours). But there are things you can do to shorten the length of the rage--I'm hoping that book you're reading will list many of them for you. For me, serious exercise (running, walking for hours, hiking, lifting weights) were the only things that helped to shorten a rage.
Also once I started taking care of the bipolar with medications that really seemed to help, the raging pretty well stopped. For me, I believe it was a symptom of my bipolar.
The very best of luck for you. You sound like an intelligent woman Cynthia. Janice
ps. think you could be going manic (sex talk & talk of going off meds)?
Posted by Cynthia M on May 20, 2000, at 12:45:33
In reply to Raging ( some ideas to hopefully help), posted by Janice on May 19, 2000, at 17:50:47
Janice - Thanks so much for the help and the interest... I have found that I don't remember half of what occurs during my rages and usually am shocked at the amount of force I am able to exert... I would agree with your assesment of sezuire like activity.... I would also agree with the idea of possible mania at this point... I had labs drawn on tuesday and was told yesterday that they still did not have results back...... right....... anyway I am tired of being at the mercy of these people... I fully understand the importance of staying on the right meds but I am tired of the ridiculous psychotherapy that is doing nothing to help the situations Ifind myself in.... I think that walking is probably more effective and more theraputic... I am so bored with myself!!! I need to cultivate other interests that don't revolve around the mental health building.! I should find out about the meds levels sometime next week.... until then i have to stay away from there since I feel like I have set myself up for another 5150 by revealing the self injurious behavior..... Hey , I didn't cut yesterday, first day in a long time, maybe today will work out as well. Thanks again, Cyndy
Posted by Janice on May 21, 2000, at 20:27:03
In reply to Re: Raging ( some ideas to hopefully help), posted by Cynthia M on May 20, 2000, at 12:45:33
a very good plan.
I gotta say, I don't believe psychotherapy ever did me one bit of good.
Janice
Posted by Elizabeth on May 22, 2000, at 3:46:07
In reply to Re: Rage and Cutting Revisited Noa amd Janet, posted by Noa on May 17, 2000, at 15:54:08
> From what I read, people who cut are not necessarily suffering from borderline personality disorder. You aren't cutting to get attention. It is more of a compulsion.
I think the understanding is that, while cutting is a strong (not absolute) indicator of BPD, the behavior has been misinterpreted in the past (regardless of whether BPD is an accurate diagnosis for the particular individual). That is, people with BPD *do* have compulsions to cut when they feel overwhelmed, and they *aren't* "just doing it for the attention."
> Substituting one behavior for another isn't addressing the point either.
One compulsion for another, you mean?
> The cutting has developed over time for a reason--it is a way of coping with feelings and just substituting something else doesn't really address what is underneath.
You know, what I don't get is, why does it work at all (even in the short term)?
Posted by Noa on May 22, 2000, at 8:22:33
In reply to Re: Rage and Cutting Revisited Noa amd Janet, posted by Elizabeth on May 22, 2000, at 3:46:07
Elizabeth, good to have you around again. Where ya been?
>You know, what I don't get is, why does it work at all (even in the short term)?
I wonder, too. I have heard that it can stimulate endorphin release, but so can a lot of other things. Why cutting?
I keep thinking there HAS to be an evolutionary analog---some way that cutting or an analogous behavior has advantages for survival in certain circumstances, either because of the apparent effects of the injury, or because of biochemical effects.
Could there be any relationship between pathological self-injury cutting, and ritualized cutting for cultural initiations, like circumcision, or the kind of cutting that is done in some cultures, creating elaborate designs in the skin?
Posted by Cynthia M on May 22, 2000, at 13:41:45
In reply to Re: Rage and Cutting Revisited Noa amd Janet, posted by Noa on May 22, 2000, at 8:22:33
Maybe - the rage is definitely a factor whereas in ritualistic cutting the emotions are more controlled. I am definitely not an expert but I do know that the effect of the BLOOD is major..... I was disapointed on saturday because I broke my contract with myself and cut, still, I didn't cut friday or yesterday.... this is progress...... I am feeling better and have not given in to the urge to call Mental Health and ask about lab results...this is good.... I don't need them.... I see the nurse on thursday and that will be all i need ... iam cancelling wednesday's appointment with the therapist... maybe friday's too.... well... time to go pick up kids ... thanks again for all of the support.. You have all been great... if anyone has any ideas or suggestions .. i would indeed be greatful ... Cyndy
Posted by bob on May 22, 2000, at 15:34:33
In reply to Re: Rage and Cutting Revisited Noa amd Janet, posted by Noa on May 22, 2000, at 8:22:33
> >You know, what I don't get is, why does it work at all (even in the short term)?
>
> I wonder, too. I have heard that it can stimulate endorphin release, but so can a lot of other things. Why cutting?Well, there are other things people besides cutting to injure themselves, but cutting does seem to be the norm. For me, it gets back to control. To have the illusion that I'm in control of causing the pain or injury is extremely powerful. The gratification that comes from the sense of control can almost wipe out the pain -- both of what I do and the pain I'm feeling over which I have NO control, the thing that drives me to self-injury. Probably quite a bit similar to some state of self-hypnosis -- you can ignore the pain because of the extreme focus on what you're doing.
my two cents
bob
Posted by Noa on May 22, 2000, at 18:20:14
In reply to Re: Rage and Cutting Revisited Noa amd Janet, posted by Cynthia M on May 22, 2000, at 13:41:45
.. iam cancelling wednesday's appointment with the therapist... maybe friday's too....
Cynthia, given how recent sessions went, which probably felt really out of control for you, and in which you felt your rage was triggered, leading to the feeling that the clinicians were ready to lock you up, I can understand your desire to avoid going back. Especially, since you are really tuned in now to the idea of self-control when it comes to cutting. But perhaps another way to look at it is that you can go back to them and report all the work you have done--getting more info on your disorder, reading the book, making a good effort to reduce the frequency of cutting etc. It is an opportunity to ask the therapist to work with you to work in this new direction, and an opportunity to present this stronger sense of yourself that I think you are trying to get in touch with.
I also hope you don't reject all mental health care, just because the people you have seen have not been equipped to address your problem. Setting yourself up with the expectation to conquer the self-injury problem, and the problems underlying it, alone with no assistance, seems, well, like a set up. Just from your handful of posts, I get the impression that you are someone who expects a lot from herself. I love that you have taken on the challenge of cutting less, but I worry that you expect yourself not to need help. Perhaps you don't need the help, but to set up that expectation is a lot of pressure. Why not interview another clinician, one who is well versed in self-injury?
Posted by medlib on May 22, 2000, at 22:10:11
In reply to Rage and Cutting Revisited, posted by Cynthia M on May 17, 2000, at 10:08:58
Cynthia et al--
While reading this thread, I kept flashing on the old "medical" practice of bloodletting. It was considered particularly appropriate for systemic (whole body) illness; draining out a quantity of the "bad" blood must have seemed symbolically reasonable. "Bad blood" became an all purpose explanation for both cause and treatment of what couldn't otherwise be understood.
I believe that bloodletting lasted as long as it did because it has an instinctual component. "If I am injured, do I not bleed?" Rage *is* an injury--at least to the spirit.
I think it must be human nature to want to do something dramatic to "rescue" someone gravely ill (even ourselves), if for no other reason, to demonstrate our concern. Sometimes, I wonder if, in another 2 generations, our descendents won't view the large-incision surgery of today as we do bloodletting.
I also believe that all OCD's (and I include all addictions) have a common underlying mechanism--the release or relief of intolerable internal tension. Although they employ different means and send different messages, all such behaviors serve to focus attention away from what cannot be "stood" or understood toward what is comfortingly familiar, tho harmful. "Better the evil known..."
If you conclude that my "free associations" are too theoretical and don't apply to the behavior you wrestle with daily, I shall understand completely. I do not see this one from the inside. Put it down to the musings of an insufficiently occupied mind.
My OCDs are sufficiently subtle that I can easily fail to notice that I engage in them. I routinely deny anxiety (not enough energy). So I was surprised, once I was on Effexor, to see the skin on my lower arms clear up, to notice buying the same few foods all the time, to observe that doing crosswords, or playing computer bridge and Free Cell does not relieve my "restlessness" as it used to. This thread has reminded me that the reason that I leave the house only once every 10 days-2 weeks probably is *not* lack of energy. How easily we routinize the regular, but weird.
My last odd observation (at least for now): the more dysfunctional I become, the more important it seems to forgive myself daily for being less than perfect--and then, to try to believe that I'm forgiven.
Well wishes--a babbling medlib
Posted by Cynthia M on May 23, 2000, at 10:07:18
In reply to Re: Cutting=bloodletting?, posted by medlib on May 22, 2000, at 22:10:11
Perhaps there is something to the bloodletting.......it just seems better when there is more blood.... I haven't cut since Saturday and I am restless.. My arm is beginning to heal and it is disturbing me. Noa I think your Idea is a good one, that i have found a valuable resource and I am getting things more under control ... Although Saturday I cut because of being tired and an inability to handle the "normal" mom stuff ( although how normal can it be with 9 kids???!!!) anyway bob, I am sure that the issue of control is huge here, the sense of control that I can get from cutting is amazingly intense... medlib, your associations are really very insightful and I appreciate your seeing that the idea of forgiveness for being "less than perfect" is an important issue for me. I have always been a perfectionist and I am finding it harder and harder to "comply" with my own expectations....I have found that I need to take on another project and focus as much as I can there and not on the other areas of control that I really have no control over.. No w I try dieting........... I can control how much I eat and how much I exercise etc... at least if I am substituting behaviors I will be getting a positive response from the "outside' psychiatric community instead of the threat of being locked up. Thanks for the continued support.. today I am cleaning... It is getting hot here and wearing long sleeves is getting old.....Thanks again..... Cyndy
Posted by Cynthia M on May 23, 2000, at 20:09:15
In reply to Re: Cutting=bloodletting?, posted by Cynthia M on May 23, 2000, at 10:07:18
OK talk about a complete waste of time! I just spent an hour and a half with a "therapist" who did nothing but tell me that I may be having rage and it may have nothing to do with being bipolar. I guess I am just a bitch who has absolutely no self-control. It really is irritating when they say if your labs are good then maybe you are just re-acting to other stimuli...... I don't act like this on a normal basis so why would I "allow" it to have such a strong affect on me just because of the results of some labs... which by the way they didn't give me the results for......So, I guess that being "bipolar" has nothing to do with the way I feel about things or the way I handle things......Interesting.... does anyone want to tell me why I am taking all of this f**cking medication????If I am a just a bitch then why take all the pills....... I am wondering if any of these people have ever experienced blind rage.... I wonder if they have ever had their children afraid of them because of a rage episode.... Is it just me???? Am I not responding well to external stimuli? This "enlightening " session this afternoon makes me want to cut more than I have in two days!!!!! I have had it with therapy... I am supposed to go see my "regular" therapist tomorrow morning.. the guy I saw this afternoon was a crisis worker. I am tired of being treated like I am being melodramatic... It is like... Just shut up, let me cut , give me my other meds, if they are going to work, and leave me alone! Am I wrong here? Can someone who has never felt it relate to it?Sorry going off but at least I am not cutting right now.... Please respond with any and all opinions because the personelle that I am dealing with seem to think I am wearing my "Bipolar Disorder" as a crown or something and I can't survive without the drama.... I would like to never go back.... flush the meds and move on with life..........
Posted by Janice on May 23, 2000, at 20:42:19
In reply to Re: Cutting= B.S.?, posted by Cynthia M on May 23, 2000, at 20:09:15
If something similar didn't happen to me, I would have found it very hard to believe. It sounds to me like they don't know anything about bipolar or rages--my two went together like peanut butter and jam--and the raging went away as I got the bipolar under control. I never cut, but there was usually a climax where I would destroy something that was symbolic to the particular rage I was having.If I were you, I'd stay far away from these people who *think* they are helping you. But don't give up on your medications Cynthia because when you finally get the relief you really need, it will be from medications. It doesn't sound like your meds are that great right now. I'd put my energy into researching medications and trying to find the right combination for yourself.
That's the exact kind of therapy that made me feel sick inside and eventually give up on it.
Take care Cynthia, Janice
Posted by boBB on May 23, 2000, at 21:42:55
In reply to Cynthia, that's real bad therapy…, posted by Janice on May 23, 2000, at 20:42:19
Cynthia, if you are in the process of raising nine kids, there is likely far more going on in your pscyhe than can be summarized as bipolar disorder. I don't want to defend an uncaring therapist, and certainly don't want to reinforce your notion that maybe you are just a bitch. At risk of being crude, though, you calling yourselff, the mammaliam mother of nine precious young mammals, a bitch, is a more fair use of the term than some guy calling a twenty-something hotty his "bitch." Don't hold it against yourself if your have been loud and brash as a mom. If you ever think you were too severe with the kids, tell them that. When you need to assert authority in their lives, tell them as evenly as you can, this is what you have to do. Act balanced even if you don't feel balanced.
"Bipolar disorder" and the general set of neurological assumptions that goes with the diagnosis might well describe your reaction to your situation, and the biological mechanism available to you to deal with your awesome responsibility. If it was me and you and the nine, and if congress was comprised of honest caring people and not a bunch of stiff-necked ego-maniacs, I would tell the kids to play by themselves for a while, me and mom are gonna chill in private and we would cozy up in the bedroom with a tray and some home-grown herb. I say that to emphasise that I am not bashing your drug use. You have a right to use medicines, though the medications available on the market might not very well fit your needs.
I suspect you are desperately in need of a social support network. My guess is that you are stuck in a situation where you have to deal with the personalities that present themselves in your day-to-day life and have little practical choice when it comes to finding more warm and affectionat freindship such as would recharge your emotional batteries and fill the loving cup from which you feed your children.
Am I on the right track?
Maybe I am just projecting into your situation experiences that I have too often encountered for myself. But the times when I had compassionate, loving friends, many of whom were pot users, and some of whom used pmeds, were far more tolerable and balanced times of my life than times when I was pretty much on my own.
I surmise these things about your situation because I have not read much in your posts about any person who supports you, and because what little spare time you seem to get from being a mom and from going to therapy, you seem to spend in the company of us, your babblefriends. Too bad we are little more than a dazzling array of lights, and a set of letters, but apparently we seem to manage to communicate with this feeble prosthesis.
Perhaps this therapist wanted you to articulate some need beyond the need for meds. A diagnosis can become a way of intellectualizing a problem that shrouds the emotional pain that is part of the problem. You have needs the drugs will never resolve. No pill will ever hug you and tell you that, despite their screaming, unconcern, and whatever problems your children present to you, you are loveable and able to give meaningful love. But even with a full cup of love, you might find a need for some kind of meds. I defend your right to have access to meds, and to have access to information about the meds and their side effects. What i suspect about the cutting is that your are suffering, but the pain is buried too deep to feel, and you have no other way to get in touch with the pain but to physically induce pain so you can get a moment's relief in the countercoup of endorphine that pain causes.
Without knowing you, I cannot suggest what in your physical situation you might change to get some releif, or what in your emotional history or perspective you might confront that would let you discover some way through your situation. I do know that parition is but a foreshadow of the pain that parents suffer, and I suspect you find little time to realize your innermost needs. All i can suggest is that you think about, in tangible terms, what you want, and think about it long and hard until you find some of whatever it is. I don't mean intangible things, like, "to be happy" but tangible things, like, well, I shouldn't suggest - maybe a pet, or a garden or a friend. Fresh air? a swim in cool water? Time in a relatively quiet area, maybe out of doors? I don't know. I would add that in group counseling and on a board like this you get some of the most insightful support you might find, but I would urge you to be sure you have some relationships that emphasise your functionality and strength as a person to balance relationships that reinforce disfunctional aspects of who you are.
Posted by juniper on May 24, 2000, at 0:06:22
In reply to Re: Cutting=bloodletting?, posted by Cynthia M on May 23, 2000, at 10:07:18
your crisis worker did not seem to be very empathic or trained particularly well. i think that you realize this--take it as that and realize that his opinions are just that--opinions of an untrained and nonempathic person.
i was wondering why you cut on your arms? do you cut anywhere else also? i do my blood-letting under wraps, where if i'm in a swimsuit i've some explaining to do, but otherwise my scars and sores are covered. an odd thing too--while for the first time in years i don't think i'm depressed, i still cut (or, more appropriately, pick, or stab with thumbtacks).
juniper
Posted by Brenda on May 24, 2000, at 11:51:01
In reply to Re: Cynthia, that's real bad therapy…, posted by boBB on May 23, 2000, at 21:42:55
>
Cynthia,
My feelings for you coincide with boBB's. My god sweetie - nine children! My son is grown now, and I only have four dogs at home - and that can put me in a rage! Please, please try to have compassion and forgiveness for yourself. If you stepped outside yourself and saw you - I think you would have compassion, love and forgiveness for that person. The idea of some type of group with other females sounds about right. Something just for yourself where you can find out you're not alone in this. The babbleboard is very supportive of you, but I think some human support would be even better.
We all have love and compassion for you, once again, please try to find some for yourself.
Thinking of you. BrendaCynthia, if you are in the process of raising nine kids, there is likely far more going on in your pscyhe than can be summarized as bipolar disorder. I don't want to defend an uncaring therapist, and certainly don't want to reinforce your notion that maybe you are just a bitch. At risk of being crude, though, you calling yourselff, the mammaliam mother of nine precious young mammals, a bitch, is a more fair use of the term than some guy calling a twenty-something hotty his "bitch." Don't hold it against yourself if your have been loud and brash as a mom. If you ever think you were too severe with the kids, tell them that. When you need to assert authority in their lives, tell them as evenly as you can, this is what you have to do. Act balanced even if you don't feel balanced.
>
> "Bipolar disorder" and the general set of neurological assumptions that goes with the diagnosis might well describe your reaction to your situation, and the biological mechanism available to you to deal with your awesome responsibility. If it was me and you and the nine, and if congress was comprised of honest caring people and not a bunch of stiff-necked ego-maniacs, I would tell the kids to play by themselves for a while, me and mom are gonna chill in private and we would cozy up in the bedroom with a tray and some home-grown herb. I say that to emphasise that I am not bashing your drug use. You have a right to use medicines, though the medications available on the market might not very well fit your needs.
>
> I suspect you are desperately in need of a social support network. My guess is that you are stuck in a situation where you have to deal with the personalities that present themselves in your day-to-day life and have little practical choice when it comes to finding more warm and affectionat freindship such as would recharge your emotional batteries and fill the loving cup from which you feed your children.
>
> Am I on the right track?
>
> Maybe I am just projecting into your situation experiences that I have too often encountered for myself. But the times when I had compassionate, loving friends, many of whom were pot users, and some of whom used pmeds, were far more tolerable and balanced times of my life than times when I was pretty much on my own.
>
> I surmise these things about your situation because I have not read much in your posts about any person who supports you, and because what little spare time you seem to get from being a mom and from going to therapy, you seem to spend in the company of us, your babblefriends. Too bad we are little more than a dazzling array of lights, and a set of letters, but apparently we seem to manage to communicate with this feeble prosthesis.
>
> Perhaps this therapist wanted you to articulate some need beyond the need for meds. A diagnosis can become a way of intellectualizing a problem that shrouds the emotional pain that is part of the problem. You have needs the drugs will never resolve. No pill will ever hug you and tell you that, despite their screaming, unconcern, and whatever problems your children present to you, you are loveable and able to give meaningful love. But even with a full cup of love, you might find a need for some kind of meds. I defend your right to have access to meds, and to have access to information about the meds and their side effects. What i suspect about the cutting is that your are suffering, but the pain is buried too deep to feel, and you have no other way to get in touch with the pain but to physically induce pain so you can get a moment's relief in the countercoup of endorphine that pain causes.
>
> Without knowing you, I cannot suggest what in your physical situation you might change to get some releif, or what in your emotional history or perspective you might confront that would let you discover some way through your situation. I do know that parition is but a foreshadow of the pain that parents suffer, and I suspect you find little time to realize your innermost needs. All i can suggest is that you think about, in tangible terms, what you want, and think about it long and hard until you find some of whatever it is. I don't mean intangible things, like, "to be happy" but tangible things, like, well, I shouldn't suggest - maybe a pet, or a garden or a friend. Fresh air? a swim in cool water? Time in a relatively quiet area, maybe out of doors? I don't know. I would add that in group counseling and on a board like this you get some of the most insightful support you might find, but I would urge you to be sure you have some relationships that emphasise your functionality and strength as a person to balance relationships that reinforce disfunctional aspects of who you are.
Posted by Janice on May 24, 2000, at 12:29:37
In reply to Re: Cynthia, that's real bad therapy…, posted by Brenda on May 24, 2000, at 11:51:01
hoping your therapy session today went better, and you'll get some help and support.
hoping the best for you, Janice
boBB made some good points.
Posted by Cynthia M on May 24, 2000, at 12:36:25
In reply to Re: Cynthia, that's real bad therapy…, posted by Brenda on May 24, 2000, at 11:51:01
BoBB and all of you who have been so supportive of me.... Thnak you so much for such insightful input... I am very greatful for the support I have recieved here . I had a very supportive( manipulative) friendship and I ended up having an affair with her husband.. (democratic definition).. I have moved to be away from these people and I am trying to make it on my own ( with my husband).. I brought these kids into the world and It is my responsibility to see that they get the kind of parenting they deserve... I agree with BoBB that there is probably more to this whole picture than is available on the surface... I in fact just bought a t-shirt that says "Fight Back- Self Medicate" great huh? Anyway, my point, this is a huge trial and I am feeling very much like I have to handle it alone and it isn't just the kids , although they do play an important role, the hardest thing for me right now is impulse control and I feel likethe pdoc, therapists etc are supposed to fix it. Is it my imagination or do they foster a sense of dependence and then pull it out from under you when you feel it necessary to call upon it? Maybe it is just me.... Maybe I should re-focus everything ... I have a brother with bp and he self medicates with pot and alcohol... although he is not employed and does not take full responsibility for his kids (3) My other (biological) brother also self medicates with alcohol.... I am just trying to go by the "rules" and it isn't working.... I am supposed to see the pnurse tomorrow and I guess I will just tell her that I see no point in continuing with a drug therapy that is not working...I am not sure what else there is for them to offer me.... I guess I will find out, maybe they have nothing left...then it will be up to just me....I am not sure what to do then.. any ideas?Thanks for the support- I do appreciate all of the feedback... stay tuned....-Cyndy
Posted by Noa on May 24, 2000, at 17:29:43
In reply to Re: Cynthia, that's real bad therapy…, posted by Cynthia M on May 24, 2000, at 12:36:25
Cynthia, I agree that your situation is complex, and cannot be summed up easily in any way. Yes, there is the rage, and the bipolar, and the nine children, etc. etc. But why should your problem have to be reduced to one or another? It sounds like you felt the crisis worker didn't listen to you or acknowledge your experience of things. Please don't make any drastic changes. Why not get a consult first with someone who has experience with this kind of problem? don't you owe it to yourself to get the most appropriate care?
I think there is some aspect of mental health care that is conducive to feeling a power imbalance and dependence. But I think this seems to be a hot issue for you anyway and you seem to crave this kind of relationship and abhor it at the same time. You said in your post that you do have a wish for them to fix it. Do you think you might get enraged because being with them stimulates this wish, and then when it isn't gratified, you feel so awful about having wished it? Let me tell you, the wish is not bad. I have wished the same, many times. We wish for someone like a therapist to fill a hole that was left gaping, and that we feel we cannot fill ourselves. Mostly, we like to avoid feeling the hole in the first place, so when we are with these helper people, and the wish/need gets stimulated and stirred up, just by being with someone who is available to listen and try to help, well, it can be overwhelmingly frightening, I think. I think you need a therapist who can work with you on determining what kind of therapeutic boundaries you need to feel safer, to not feel so vulnerable to that wish that it stirs up your rage.
Mostly, it can help to start challenging the belief that you are somehow bad for wishing such wishes. When we wish for something that in our experience doesn't get fulfilled, we tend to feel we were bad or wrong to want it in the first place. And it feels so out of control to want or need something that we have not been able to receive (that we probably SHOULD have received from our parents). I wonder if your cutting helps to distance yourself from wanting?
I say all this, because, even though I am not a cutter, I have experienced the wanting and the self-loathing for wanting something that I believe I can't have, based upon the experience of not getting, or of being told outright that I don't deserve. Of learning to squash my feelings of need or anger because I am supposedly not supposed to have them. Well, how the hell does a person stamp out those feelings? We are creative. We come up with ways, don't we?
Going back to the therapy issue...You need someone who will help you figure out how to feel some sense of control in the treatment process. I think seeing someone who knows about cutting would be helpful.
Posted by Cynthia M on May 25, 2000, at 9:21:23
In reply to Re: Cynthia, there are other options, posted by Noa on May 24, 2000, at 17:29:43
Noa- I think you have made some really valid points here.... It is a demeaning feeling to be so dependent on anyone that you are not certain returns the sentiment. I actually have an appointment with the psychiatric nurse this morning and I am hoping to be able to get some answers..... The problem here is that if any of these people even know about the cutting they panic and send me to crisis which is one small step from a 5150.... I don't want to get locked up so I get the feeling that I need to be quiet and be good and respond favorably to their treatment .....It just feels ridiculous to be diagnosed with a mood disorder and then not be expected to be moody.... I was also told by the crisis worker that I shouldn't call bipolar disorder a disorder because that would indicate that something is wrong..... duh! I am limited with where I can go an what Ihave available to me since I live in a hickville USA So, for now, I hope for a breakthrough on the part of the people that are available to me and also , it would be nice to be able to find some peace somewhere..... thanks for the great support... I will keep you posted....Cyndy
Posted by Noa on May 25, 2000, at 14:34:15
In reply to Re: Cynthia, there are other options, posted by Cynthia M on May 25, 2000, at 9:21:23
Cynthia, therapy cannot be successful if the client feels the need to keep the symptoms hidden from the therapist! It seems pretty clear that this clinic is not well-versed or experienced in treating cutting, and you are reacting to that, realistically, I think. Why not share the book with them, give them the opportunity to get better educated about it? Also, I would suggest making an appointment with the nearest psychiatric clinic at a university, and travelling for a consult. Hopefully with a specialist in this problem. Then, the consultant could provide some guidance to your clinic. Can you ask the nurse, et. al, if they would be willing to do something like that?
Posted by Cynthia M on May 26, 2000, at 10:59:02
In reply to Re: Cynthia, there are other options, posted by Noa on May 25, 2000, at 14:34:15
Noa- what a good Idea! I think that my therapist would be very open to the idea of learning more about cutting.. I will share the book and thus the SAFE program with her and maybe we can get somewhere with it. In a lot of ways I have always been a groundbreaker with the medical community.. I have dealt with the education of a lot of "professionals" and am very open to the education of those that are supposed to be helping me. Yesterday I was able to see the psych nurse and found out, lo and behold, that my labs were in and my tegretol level was considerably low , even after I had increased it myself..! It would help a lot if these people would just listen to me and give me credit for what I know about myself and my illness in general.. It is infuriating , even when you are not in a rage, to get the proverbial "condesending pat on the head" when you are trying to explain what is going on with you. And , yes would all those here who understand the difference between anger and rage please raise your hand! I am tired of the "professionals " telling me that "everyone gets angry" ... yes, but there is a difference between the two moods.. Well. I feel alot better now. At least I am not just raving . I actually have concrete proof that something is wrong. Thanks so much for your help and support.. I hope to be able to get a handle on the cutting too... the SAFE program is very useful.... I am finding it makes a lot of sense.... I will keep you posted.. thanks for caring-Cyndy
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