![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 25 to 49 of 57. Go back in thread:
Posted by Alan on May 15, 2000, at 21:50:02
In reply to Re: I beg to differ ..., posted by Cindy W on May 13, 2000, at 10:56:38
> Bob, I think the therapist needs to be someone the client doesn't know very well. As a psychologist and also a person in therapy, I find I do not know much about my therapist, except that he is very warm and caring; unfortunately, this makes me put him on a pedestal and I have a "crush" on him. On the plus side, my transference feelings are "grist for the mill" of therapy, since undoubtedly I relate to him in many of the same ways I relate to others in my life, and if I ever have the nerve to talk about all that with him, will be able to understand and change what I do. From what I have read, the therapeutic relationship is the main factor in client change; whether the therapist is warm, authentic and caring makes more difference than whatever theories or techniques the therapist uses. The client changes when he/she is ready to change and feels sufficiently emotionally supported to change habitual ways of feeling and acting. As a cognitive behaviorist, I find it amusing that in my own therapy, I want more of an analytic, dynamic type therapy! However, I think if I knew my therapist too well, as a friend or lover, neither of us could be objective enough to be honest (friends and lovers always have a hidden agenda, of meeting their own needs). Therefore, as a therapist, I believe that the therapist should not disclose too many personal details (since I work in a prison, disclosing personal information is forbidden and can even be dangerous). All this is my two cents worth...but I still am in love with my therapist!
************
I hope that you haven't taken a vacation or something neat like that..
Did you see my post to you earlier today? I hope so. You have such keen insights on this subject it seems - maybe due to the fact that you are a psychologist...I don't know.
Alan
******************
Alan
*************************
Posted by allisonm on May 15, 2000, at 22:08:44
In reply to Transference for Alan, posted by allisonm on May 15, 2000, at 17:46:06
OK. I fixed most of the typos and added the reading list at the bottom....
From "A Guided Tour of The Collected Works of C.G. Jung" by Robert Hopcke:
Transference/Countertransference
Jung's idea of transference within the analytic relationship was similar to Freud's, with several important differences based on Jung's ideas about the psyche. While Jung agreed with Freud that the phenomenon of transference consisted of thoughts, feelings, and fantasies from another relationship, usually in the past, being reexperienced within a present relationship, Jung differed from Freud in seeing that a transferencce may not be based solely on material from the personal unconscious but may contain striking archetypal elements as well. One may have a father transference to an analyst that goes beyond anything the patient ever experienced with his or her own father, experiencing the analyst as a larger-than-life, perhaps even mythically idealized figure, an experience most appropriately called an archetypal transference.Though both Freud and Jung shared the view that transference was an ever present element of every relationship, Freud viewed transference and its analytic counterpart, countertransference, as a largely pathological occurrence between people -- inappropriate, irrational, lacking reality orientation. For this reason, Freud saw transference within the analytic relationship as a matter for constant, focused exploration between analyst and patient until, ideally, the whole of the transference had been made conscious, worked through, and ultimately resolved.
Jung, however, viewing the psyche as a naturally occurring phenomenon, removed transference/countertransference fom the realm of psychopathology, seeing it as a natural occurence, perhaps unavoidable and at times even helpful. For these reasons, he differed sharply with psychoanalysis, holding the view that the real relationship between analyst and patient was potentially much more curative than the transference relationship and that the lack of transference was actually a positive factor in the analytic relationship. Further, Jung saw the transference of personal or archetypal material onto the person of the analyst as something to be understood but not necessarily resolved. Within Jungian analysis, therefore, the transference and countertransference relationship is often asknowledged and explored without becoming the sole focus of treatment. Indeed, as one can see in light of Jung's theory of the collective unconscious, resolution of the transference would mean making conscious the vast ocean of collective human experience -- a manifest impossibility. Jung worked to make conscious the wholeness that the unconscious transference/countertransference relationship represents, thereby hoping to bring into awareness the deep levels of existence that the patient experiences and reexperiences within the analytic relationship.
To explicate his transformational view of the transference/countertransference relationship within analysis, Jung used the symbolism of the alchemical process, a precess of changing base metals into gold which he alchemists of the Middle Ages believed to be literally possible but which Jung saw as a projection of an inner, psychic process onto external, material reality. The point of the analytic process, for Jung, was to change the base metals of unexamined, projected experience into the gold of a more unified, personally integrated experience, not simply to resolve the transference on the level of the personal unconscious. Jung's definitive and highly influential study of alchemical symbolism as it pertains to transference within analysis, "The Psychology of the Transference," in its pictorial and symbolic richness could not be more unlike typically Freudian psychoanalytic treatments of the topic.
Among Jungian analysts, a wide range of opinion exists on the place of transference/countertransference in analysis. Some analysts make transference analysis the centerpiece of analytic work, particularly the so-called London School of Jungian analysts following Michael Fordham's lead, while others follow Jung's own opinions more closely and relativize the place of transference analysis in psychotherapy. The secondary sources in the readings list (below) show the variation in how transference is conceived of and handled therapeutically by contemporary analysts.
The readings lists begins with Jung's ideas on transference during his period of association with Freudian psychoanalysis, followed by an article that gives Jung's more typical view of transference. Jung's most important work, "The Psychology of the transference," is suggested under "To Go Deeper," since the reader may wish to become more acquainted with Jung's psychological studies of alchemy before delving into this unusual piece of Jung's writing.
To Begin
"Some Crucial points in Psychoanalysis," cw4,pp.252-289
"The Theory of Psychoanalysis," cw 4, esp. chap. 8, "Therapeutic Principles of Psychoanalysis," pp. 181-203
"The problems of modern Psychotherapy," cw 16, pp. 53-75To Go Deeper:
"The Psychology of the Transference," cw 16, pp. 164-323
Secondary sources:
Fordham, Michael. "Jungian Psychotherapy." New York: Wiley, 1978Jacoby, Mario. "The Analytic Encounter: Transference and Human Relationship." Toronto: Inner City Books, 1984
Posted by allisonm on May 15, 2000, at 22:22:58
In reply to Re: Transference for Alan-to Allisonm, posted by Alan on May 15, 2000, at 21:38:06
Alan,
I don't see a message from you under the previous post, just a repeat of my message. Or did I miss something?
Tnx.
Posted by bob on May 15, 2000, at 23:11:49
In reply to I'm a male patient...female therapist best for me?, posted by Tom on May 15, 2000, at 20:59:04
I dunno, Tom. Sounds like your first male therapist was a good fit. As for stuffing up your feelings inside, perhaps finding a male therapist who thinks the "strong, silent type" is a load of road apples would be more effective in helping you make a change than a woman would.
Then again, I should talk. I grew up blue collar in a house filled with males (and my mom) and I grew up hating men and male culture (as defined, for the most part, by 1960's blue collar immigrant Catholic men). I'd laugh at anybody who'd suggest I should see a male therapist.
my two cents (or whatever its worth!)
bob
Posted by Cindy W on May 16, 2000, at 0:16:26
In reply to Re: I beg to differ ...Cindy W-are you out there?, posted by Alan on May 15, 2000, at 21:50:02
>
> > Bob, I think the therapist needs to be someone the client doesn't know very well. As a psychologist and also a person in therapy, I find I do not know much about my therapist, except that he is very warm and caring; unfortunately, this makes me put him on a pedestal and I have a "crush" on him. On the plus side, my transference feelings are "grist for the mill" of therapy, since undoubtedly I relate to him in many of the same ways I relate to others in my life, and if I ever have the nerve to talk about all that with him, will be able to understand and change what I do. From what I have read, the therapeutic relationship is the main factor in client change; whether the therapist is warm, authentic and caring makes more difference than whatever theories or techniques the therapist uses. The client changes when he/she is ready to change and feels sufficiently emotionally supported to change habitual ways of feeling and acting. As a cognitive behaviorist, I find it amusing that in my own therapy, I want more of an analytic, dynamic type therapy! However, I think if I knew my therapist too well, as a friend or lover, neither of us could be objective enough to be honest (friends and lovers always have a hidden agenda, of meeting their own needs). Therefore, as a therapist, I believe that the therapist should not disclose too many personal details (since I work in a prison, disclosing personal information is forbidden and can even be dangerous). All this is my two cents worth...but I still am in love with my therapist!
> ************
> I hope that you haven't taken a vacation or something neat like that..
> Did you see my post to you earlier today? I hope so. You have such keen insights on this subject it seems - maybe due to the fact that you are a psychologist...I don't know.
> Alan
> ******************
> Alan
> *************************
Alan, I'm so sorry to be late replying...see my post below (have been unable to post for three days). Am still trying to resolve my transference with my pdoc (see him next 6/5). Have read a very good book, "In Session--The Bond Between Women and Their Therapists," by Deborah A. Lott, which addresses transference (probably applies pretty much in reverse, too, to male clients and their female therapists). It is a paperback, copyrighted l999/2000. The book talks about how the transference develops, as a result of the special type of relationship between therapist and client (not a friendship, not a family membership, etc.), where the therapist knows more about the client than vice versa. Am hoping that the therapy relationship will help me work out problems I have had repeatedly in my relationships with men. Having been in therapy before, but never being as committed as I am now to really trying to change, I'm terrified and also relieved to have been able to admit to my therapist (just in writing so far) how I feel; hopefully, then, this will be 'grist for the mill' or something to work on in therapy, and I'll be able to see how I distort things, before I screw up any more real-life relationships!
Posted by Cindy W on May 16, 2000, at 0:24:19
In reply to Re: I beg to differ ...To Cindy W, posted by Alan on May 15, 2000, at 10:27:44
>
> > Bob, I think the therapist needs to be someone the client doesn't know very well. As a psychologist and also a person in therapy, I find I do not know much about my therapist, except that he is very warm and caring; unfortunately, this makes me put him on a pedestal and I have a "crush" on him. On the plus side, my transference feelings are "grist for the mill" of therapy, since undoubtedly I relate to him in many of the same ways I relate to others in my life, and if I ever have the nerve to talk about all that with him, will be able to understand and change what I do. From what I have read, the therapeutic relationship is the main factor in client change; whether the therapist is warm, authentic and caring makes more difference than whatever theories or techniques the therapist uses. The client changes when he/she is ready to change and feels sufficiently emotionally supported to change habitual ways of feeling and acting. As a cognitive behaviorist, I find it amusing that in my own therapy, I want more of an analytic, dynamic type therapy! However, I think if I knew my therapist too well, as a friend or lover, neither of us could be objective enough to be honest (friends and lovers always have a hidden agenda, of meeting their own needs). Therefore, as a therapist, I believe that the therapist should not disclose too many personal details (since I work in a prison, disclosing personal information is forbidden and can even be dangerous). All this is my two cents worth...but I still am in love with my therapist!
> *************************************
> Cindy,
> How do you get past or a handle on the "crush" part anyway? In my post above I described how it led to my female psychopharmacologist suggesting that I see someone else until I worked through that issue (I had disclosed to her my feelings after about a year).
> Do you believe that she and I should have explored that issue rather than her suggesting that I work through it with my talk therapist?
> Anyway, I see from this thread that this is more of a common problem than I thought.
> I was at the time trying frantically to find info. on transference from every book at the bookstores but they all seemed to be so clinical in their discussion of transference. I wonder if there is a good book that discusses this subject in depth???
> By the way your post was most informative to me and the "grist for the mill" concept made sense to me - that is what prompted me to respond to your post.
> Thanks
> Alan
> ****************************
Alan, I think that only a really secure therapist could address the transference...therapists are just people. If they are threatened, seduced, or overly flattered by someone falling in love with them in therapy, it would be hard for them to keep working with the client. I am hoping that my pdoc is sufficiently secure and has good enough boundaries that I can explore how I feel without scaring him to death, seducing him, or making him think I'm nuts. Since many, maybe even most people, have positive feelings toward their therapist which go beyond gratitude, I think it is an interesting topic, and one with which I'm struggling now. How can I be madly in love with someone I hardly know? Maybe in part because he listens nonjudgmentally and accepts me for who I am without any apparent investment or hidden agenda; maybe because I don't see him at his worst, when he is not on the pedestal I place him on; maybe because I don't have to pick up his dirty socks, or whatever. Since I know very little about my pdoc, except that he is kind, patient, and attractive, I have projected all kinds of things onto him which are superhuman and unrealistic; this is probably the same I do in new relationships with men in my life. So the theory goes that if I understand what I'm doing, I don't have to fall into those traps any more and can learn to see men (starting with my therapist) more realistically. I think, I guess, I hope, I speculate...I don't know for sure.
Posted by Alan on May 16, 2000, at 5:10:28
In reply to Re: I beg to differ ...To Cindy W, posted by Cindy W on May 16, 2000, at 0:24:19
> >
> > > Bob, I think the therapist needs to be someone the client doesn't know very well. As a psychologist and also a person in therapy, I find I do not know much about my therapist, except that he is very warm and caring; unfortunately, this makes me put him on a pedestal and I have a "crush" on him. On the plus side, my transference feelings are "grist for the mill" of therapy, since undoubtedly I relate to him in many of the same ways I relate to others in my life, and if I ever have the nerve to talk about all that with him, will be able to understand and change what I do. From what I have read, the therapeutic relationship is the main factor in client change; whether the therapist is warm, authentic and caring makes more difference than whatever theories or techniques the therapist uses. The client changes when he/she is ready to change and feels sufficiently emotionally supported to change habitual ways of feeling and acting. As a cognitive behaviorist, I find it amusing that in my own therapy, I want more of an analytic, dynamic type therapy! However, I think if I knew my therapist too well, as a friend or lover, neither of us could be objective enough to be honest (friends and lovers always have a hidden agenda, of meeting their own needs). Therefore, as a therapist, I believe that the therapist should not disclose too many personal details (since I work in a prison, disclosing personal information is forbidden and can even be dangerous). All this is my two cents worth...but I still am in love with my therapist!
> > *************************************
> > Cindy,
> > How do you get past or a handle on the "crush" part anyway? In my post above I described how it led to my female psychopharmacologist suggesting that I see someone else until I worked through that issue (I had disclosed to her my feelings after about a year).
> > Do you believe that she and I should have explored that issue rather than her suggesting that I work through it with my talk therapist?
> > Anyway, I see from this thread that this is more of a common problem than I thought.
> > I was at the time trying frantically to find info. on transference from every book at the bookstores but they all seemed to be so clinical in their discussion of transference. I wonder if there is a good book that discusses this subject in depth???
> > By the way your post was most informative to me and the "grist for the mill" concept made sense to me - that is what prompted me to respond to your post.
> > Thanks
> > Alan
> > ****************************
> Alan, I think that only a really secure therapist could address the transference...therapists are just people. If they are threatened, seduced, or overly flattered by someone falling in love with them in therapy, it would be hard for them to keep working with the client. I am hoping that my pdoc is sufficiently secure and has good enough boundaries that I can explore how I feel without scaring him to death, seducing him, or making him think I'm nuts. Since many, maybe even most people, have positive feelings toward their therapist which go beyond gratitude, I think it is an interesting topic, and one with which I'm struggling now. How can I be madly in love with someone I hardly know? Maybe in part because he listens nonjudgmentally and accepts me for who I am without any apparent investment or hidden agenda; maybe because I don't see him at his worst, when he is not on the pedestal I place him on; maybe because I don't have to pick up his dirty socks, or whatever. Since I know very little about my pdoc, except that he is kind, patient, and attractive, I have projected all kinds of things onto him which are superhuman and unrealistic; this is probably the same I do in new relationships with men in my life. So the theory goes that if I understand what I'm doing, I don't have to fall into those traps any more and can learn to see men (starting with my therapist) more realistically. I think, I guess, I hope, I speculate...I don't know for sure.
********************************
This is good for me to hear from you...in fact it is terrifically insightful. Thanks.
I guess that I can only speculate that me and my pdoc revealed so much about each other that we hit a dead end in regards to her feeling comfortable discussing it...maybe she learned something too!
It is actually still pretty painful for me though. Maybe someday by chance I will meet her and REALLY get to know whatever more I seem to need to know about her...she does live in the same neighborhood. She did treat my wife for awhile . Maybe that has something to do with it - I don't know.
Alan
****************************
Posted by Cindy W on May 16, 2000, at 8:46:46
In reply to Re: I beg to differ ...To Cindy W, posted by Alan on May 16, 2000, at 5:10:28
> > >
> > > > Bob, I think the therapist needs to be someone the client doesn't know very well. As a psychologist and also a person in therapy, I find I do not know much about my therapist, except that he is very warm and caring; unfortunately, this makes me put him on a pedestal and I have a "crush" on him. On the plus side, my transference feelings are "grist for the mill" of therapy, since undoubtedly I relate to him in many of the same ways I relate to others in my life, and if I ever have the nerve to talk about all that with him, will be able to understand and change what I do. From what I have read, the therapeutic relationship is the main factor in client change; whether the therapist is warm, authentic and caring makes more difference than whatever theories or techniques the therapist uses. The client changes when he/she is ready to change and feels sufficiently emotionally supported to change habitual ways of feeling and acting. As a cognitive behaviorist, I find it amusing that in my own therapy, I want more of an analytic, dynamic type therapy! However, I think if I knew my therapist too well, as a friend or lover, neither of us could be objective enough to be honest (friends and lovers always have a hidden agenda, of meeting their own needs). Therefore, as a therapist, I believe that the therapist should not disclose too many personal details (since I work in a prison, disclosing personal information is forbidden and can even be dangerous). All this is my two cents worth...but I still am in love with my therapist!
> > > *************************************
> > > Cindy,
> > > How do you get past or a handle on the "crush" part anyway? In my post above I described how it led to my female psychopharmacologist suggesting that I see someone else until I worked through that issue (I had disclosed to her my feelings after about a year).
> > > Do you believe that she and I should have explored that issue rather than her suggesting that I work through it with my talk therapist?
> > > Anyway, I see from this thread that this is more of a common problem than I thought.
> > > I was at the time trying frantically to find info. on transference from every book at the bookstores but they all seemed to be so clinical in their discussion of transference. I wonder if there is a good book that discusses this subject in depth???
> > > By the way your post was most informative to me and the "grist for the mill" concept made sense to me - that is what prompted me to respond to your post.
> > > Thanks
> > > Alan
> > > ****************************
> > Alan, I think that only a really secure therapist could address the transference...therapists are just people. If they are threatened, seduced, or overly flattered by someone falling in love with them in therapy, it would be hard for them to keep working with the client. I am hoping that my pdoc is sufficiently secure and has good enough boundaries that I can explore how I feel without scaring him to death, seducing him, or making him think I'm nuts. Since many, maybe even most people, have positive feelings toward their therapist which go beyond gratitude, I think it is an interesting topic, and one with which I'm struggling now. How can I be madly in love with someone I hardly know? Maybe in part because he listens nonjudgmentally and accepts me for who I am without any apparent investment or hidden agenda; maybe because I don't see him at his worst, when he is not on the pedestal I place him on; maybe because I don't have to pick up his dirty socks, or whatever. Since I know very little about my pdoc, except that he is kind, patient, and attractive, I have projected all kinds of things onto him which are superhuman and unrealistic; this is probably the same I do in new relationships with men in my life. So the theory goes that if I understand what I'm doing, I don't have to fall into those traps any more and can learn to see men (starting with my therapist) more realistically. I think, I guess, I hope, I speculate...I don't know for sure.
> ********************************
> This is good for me to hear from you...in fact it is terrifically insightful. Thanks.
> I guess that I can only speculate that me and my pdoc revealed so much about each other that we hit a dead end in regards to her feeling comfortable discussing it...maybe she learned something too!
> It is actually still pretty painful for me though. Maybe someday by chance I will meet her and REALLY get to know whatever more I seem to need to know about her...she does live in the same neighborhood. She did treat my wife for awhile . Maybe that has something to do with it - I don't know.
> Alan
> ****************************Alan, I think you're right...the fact that you got to know each other (your therapist revealed things) made it difficult to continue the therapeutic relationship. Sounds like she became uncomfortable and didn't feel she could work through the implications. I would imagine that that would make it very painful for the client, when the therapist then says go work it through with somebody else...it's like losing a therapist, confidante, friend, "crush" all at once, which would really hurt. In the past, I've always held back in therapy, until now, and never had quite the intensity of positive feelings I have now toward my pdoc. Hope I can resolve it successfully with him. As a therapist, I've never had to deal with this (have always worked in state hospitals and now in a prison, where I'm not allowed to reveal anything, which really discourages transference, as does the rule that any untoward verbal expressions or behavior by an inmate gets them cuffed and disciplined by custody). So for me, transference and countertransference have never really been an issue, as a therapist. It's weird being on the other side of the fence! Just by virtue of being so intimate with someone (telling him/her all your life history, fears, mistakes, fantasies, etc.), makes it almost like a love relationship but without the physical intimacy. That's what pulls for the transference, I think. The therapist has to be secure enough in himself/herself and in his/her relationships not to need to reciprocate with emotional or physical intimacy. It's a very weird relationship. But it sure does allow all the client's projections, fantasies, and typical patterns to emerge! It seems useful but at the same time very scary.
I'm not sure I'd ever see the same therapist who's also seeing my spouse; that would be a little weird for me. I'd always wonder what they said about me when I'm not there. It's bad enough that my therapist sees a friend of mine (female). It's taken a while for me to realize that he does maintain confidentiality and doesn't disclose things I've told him in confidence to other people I know.--Cindy W
Posted by Sara T on May 16, 2000, at 14:02:20
In reply to Re: I beg to differ ...To Cindy W, posted by Cindy W on May 16, 2000, at 0:24:19
> >
> > > Bob, I think the therapist needs to be someone the client doesn't know very well. As a psychologist and also a person in therapy, I find I do not know much about my therapist, except that he is very warm and caring; unfortunately, this makes me put him on a pedestal and I have a "crush" on him. On the plus side, my transference feelings are "grist for the mill" of therapy, since undoubtedly I relate to him in many of the same ways I relate to others in my life, and if I ever have the nerve to talk about all that with him, will be able to understand and change what I do. From what I have read, the therapeutic relationship is the main factor in client change; whether the therapist is warm, authentic and caring makes more difference than whatever theories or techniques the therapist uses. The client changes when he/she is ready to change and feels sufficiently emotionally supported to change habitual ways of feeling and acting. As a cognitive behaviorist, I find it amusing that in my own therapy, I want more of an analytic, dynamic type therapy! However, I think if I knew my therapist too well, as a friend or lover, neither of us could be objective enough to be honest (friends and lovers always have a hidden agenda, of meeting their own needs). Therefore, as a therapist, I believe that the therapist should not disclose too many personal details (since I work in a prison, disclosing personal information is forbidden and can even be dangerous). All this is my two cents worth...but I still am in love with my therapist!
> > *************************************
> > Cindy,
> > How do you get past or a handle on the "crush" part anyway? In my post above I described how it led to my female psychopharmacologist suggesting that I see someone else until I worked through that issue (I had disclosed to her my feelings after about a year).
> > Do you believe that she and I should have explored that issue rather than her suggesting that I work through it with my talk therapist?
> > Anyway, I see from this thread that this is more of a common problem than I thought.
> > I was at the time trying frantically to find info. on transference from every book at the bookstores but they all seemed to be so clinical in their discussion of transference. I wonder if there is a good book that discusses this subject in depth???
> > By the way your post was most informative to me and the "grist for the mill" concept made sense to me - that is what prompted me to respond to your post.
> > Thanks
> > Alan
> > ****************************
> Alan, I think that only a really secure therapist could address the transference...therapists are just people. If they are threatened, seduced, or overly flattered by someone falling in love with them in therapy, it would be hard for them to keep working with the client. I am hoping that my pdoc is sufficiently secure and has good enough boundaries that I can explore how I feel without scaring him to death, seducing him, or making him think I'm nuts. Since many, maybe even most people, have positive feelings toward their therapist which go beyond gratitude, I think it is an interesting topic, and one with which I'm struggling now. How can I be madly in love with someone I hardly know? Maybe in part because he listens nonjudgmentally and accepts me for who I am without any apparent investment or hidden agenda; maybe because I don't see him at his worst, when he is not on the pedestal I place him on; maybe because I don't have to pick up his dirty socks, or whatever. Since I know very little about my pdoc, except that he is kind, patient, and attractive, I have projected all kinds of things onto him which are superhuman and unrealistic; this is probably the same I do in new relationships with men in my life. So the theory goes that if I understand what I'm doing, I don't have to fall into those traps any more and can learn to see men (starting with my therapist) more realistically. I think, I guess, I hope, I speculate...I don't know for sure.Cindy-
You are one brave lady to address your feelings with your therapist. I think I would be terribly uncomfortable even continuing therapy with a person I was "in love" with. I don't think I'd ever reveal my feelings toward my son's psych because the rejection would just tear me up.
But I am fairly unsophisticated in the matter of transferrance or for that matter psychology in general. I do know that there is some literature in journals about dual relationships between therapists and clients and the ethical considerations. It seems there is a dirth of research about this topic because any therapists that may have had relationships with their clients aren't likely to respond honestly about it or at all for obvious reasons. So there is just alot of conjecture as to how many therapists have ever acted on an attraction to a client.
But isn't transferrance between therapist and cliient like a person having a crush on a movie star or teacher who's kind? I think that it is very human to respond to the charisma or warmth of another person even if they are someone we don't know at all, or very well.
I believe I responded to the warmth of my son's psychologist because I really needed all the positive messages he was sending out. But it hurts to think of it as nothing more than the manipulations of therapy and to think that I am nothing more or less than just another of many people who come to see him.
I hope that you and your therapist can use your feelings and you will get what you want out of it.
Sara T.
Posted by bob on May 16, 2000, at 14:39:19
In reply to Re: I beg to differ ...To Cindy W, posted by Cindy W on May 16, 2000, at 0:24:19
[Hey! Where did my P's go? ;^)]
> ... How can I be madly in love with someone I hardly know? Maybe in part because he listens nonjudgmentally and accepts me for who I am without any apparent investment or hidden agenda; maybe because I don't see him at his worst, when he is not on the pedestal I place him on; maybe because I don't have to pick up his dirty socks, or whatever. Since I know very little about my pdoc, except that he is kind, patient, and attractive, I have projected all kinds of things onto him which are superhuman and unrealistic; this is probably the same I do in new relationships with men in my life....
Well, whatever you do, then, be careful about computer dating!
Imagine trading emails, revealing more and more, and you know even less about the person ... and again, you start filling in the blanks. Like someone else mentioned, this isn't just something that happens between therapists and patients ... a number of situations are ripe for these sorts of relationships.
cheers,
bob
Posted by Noa on May 16, 2000, at 15:19:25
In reply to Re: I beg to differ ...To Cindy W, posted by Sara T on May 16, 2000, at 14:02:20
Sara,
The thing about having feelings for a therapist is that it is not entirely attributable to transference. There really are two real people interacting. The way you described working with your son's doc to develop behavior strategies really did sound like you were affected by having a moment with a caring man who was working with you in a supportive way and that is a kind of intimacy. It is partly feelings about a real moment, and partly feelings about the relationship needs you bring to the situation (ie transference). What is hard is that you do have to live with the limitations that your feelings cannot be acted upon. But that doesn't mean your feelings themselves were inappropriate in any way or that having such feelings is an indication of something wrong with you.
As for having feelings for someone you don't "know" much about...you do know something about a therapist. Maybe not the way you would with a social friend. But you come to know a real person who regularly responds to you using his or her real personality, even if not showing you all aspects of that personality. And the positive, supportive way of relating to you is not a manipulation. It is real. Ok, it isn't exclusive, as many of us might wish for sometimes, but that doesn't mean it isn't genuine. It is just limited.
I know it is hard to bring such feelings up to a doc, but if you can get to a point where you can muster up the courage, it might help to process them with him, not to go into depth about the meaning of the feelings for you, because he is not your therapist, but to work with him to strategize about how to be conscious of boundaries in a way that doesn't make you feel so uncomfortable, either because too much closeness feels too provocative, or because withdrawing and being distant makes you feel bad about yourself. Perhaps your therapist can talk to your son's doc for you?
Posted by Greg on May 16, 2000, at 15:20:56
In reply to lacing eople on edestals, posted by bob on May 16, 2000, at 14:39:19
You're a VERY funny guy bob, don't ever let anyone tell you any different.....
Greg
Posted by Alan on May 16, 2000, at 17:31:55
In reply to How Well Do You Know Your Therapist?, posted by Kay on May 12, 2000, at 15:47:06
I find this to be the most interesting of threads that has come to light in a long time.
All of your insights are the subject of your long hours of speculation and the most personal of thoughts about relationships at the most intimate levels. This is the type of babble that is most insightful - to me anyway.
Intimacy is shared (one way or two way) on a very deep, profound level it seems in the best pdoc/patient relationships.
How can one NOT put the doc on some pedistal or NOT hope that they have some magical powers to work on me so that I can get better?
They're using some drugs to get me better that have the same chemical effect as someone being in love. That's a powerful position for a doc to be in I suppose. Not just a pdoc.
Alan.
***********************************
Posted by Adam on May 16, 2000, at 18:17:09
In reply to Re: How Well Do You Know Your Therapist?, posted by Noa on May 15, 2000, at 10:23:39
Hell, I had homophobic obsessions and he had me doing all kinds of uncomfortable
stuff in my neighborhood, which happened to be the "gay" nexus of D.C.Creative, and daring. I don't think it would even have occurred to me to send a
similar patient off shopping in a "gay" bookstore, for instance, or popping in at
a "gay" bar. Talk about tough. If this girl's obsessions were as intense as mine,
I imagine going to a cemetary must have been horrifying. Would I have done that
to her? I can't say.A little empathy is good. A lot is crippling, sometimes.
> > The best therapist I ever had was Charles Mansueto, PhD, who treated me for OCD
> He was most of all creative.
>
> I read an article about Mansueto several years ago, in the Post magazine, featuring his work with an adolescent girl with obsessions of death. He certainly WAS creative! He had her do increasingly intense work to take the power out of the topic of death, even looking at all manner of morbid stuff, and trips to the cemetary, etc. Apparently, it worked well.
Posted by Alan on May 16, 2000, at 23:33:41
In reply to Re: I beg to differ ...To Alan, posted by Cindy W on May 16, 2000, at 8:46:46
> Alan, I think you're right...the fact that you got to know each other (your therapist revealed things) made it difficult to continue the therapeutic relationship. Sounds like she became uncomfortable and didn't feel she could work through the implications. I would imagine that that would make it very painful for the client, when the therapist then says go work it through with somebody else...it's like losing a therapist, confidante, friend, "crush" all at once, which would really hurt. In the past, I've always held back in therapy, until now, and never had quite the intensity of positive feelings I have now toward my pdoc. Hope I can resolve it successfully with him. As a therapist, I've never had to deal with this (have always worked in state hospitals and now in a prison, where I'm not allowed to reveal anything, which really discourages transference, as does the rule that any untoward verbal expressions or behavior by an inmate gets them cuffed and disciplined by custody). So for me, transference and countertransference have never really been an issue, as a therapist. It's weird being on the other side of the fence! Just by virtue of being so intimate with someone (telling him/her all your life history, fears, mistakes, fantasies, etc.), makes it almost like a love relationship but without the physical intimacy. That's what pulls for the transference, I think. The therapist has to be secure enough in himself/herself and in his/her relationships not to need to reciprocate with emotional or physical intimacy. It's a very weird relationship. But it sure does allow all the client's projections, fantasies, and typical patterns to emerge! It seems useful but at the same time very scary.
> I'm not sure I'd ever see the same therapist who's also seeing my spouse; that would be a little weird for me. I'd always wonder what they said about me when I'm not there. It's bad enough that my therapist sees a friend of mine (female). It's taken a while for me to realize that he does maintain confidentiality and doesn't disclose things I've told him in confidence to other people I know.--Cindy W
**********************
I wonder if I just asked to have a conversation with her if we could resolve this thing for me - and who knows, maybe she's curious. My wife stopped seeing her a couple of years ago and it's been several for me anyway. I know thorough my talk therapist who knows her well, that she learned alot from the relationship too. Do you think it would hurt Cindy? I wonder what the risks really are to such a conversation. I'm sure patients talk to pdocs down the road socially anyway...what is the matter with a talk with her on a one to one basis now...even if it is just for my sake. I wonder.
Alan.
****************************
Posted by Cindy W on May 17, 2000, at 9:28:36
In reply to Re: What is real?, posted by Noa on May 16, 2000, at 15:19:25
> Sara,
>
> The thing about having feelings for a therapist is that it is not entirely attributable to transference. There really are two real people interacting. The way you described working with your son's doc to develop behavior strategies really did sound like you were affected by having a moment with a caring man who was working with you in a supportive way and that is a kind of intimacy. It is partly feelings about a real moment, and partly feelings about the relationship needs you bring to the situation (ie transference). What is hard is that you do have to live with the limitations that your feelings cannot be acted upon. But that doesn't mean your feelings themselves were inappropriate in any way or that having such feelings is an indication of something wrong with you.
>
> As for having feelings for someone you don't "know" much about...you do know something about a therapist. Maybe not the way you would with a social friend. But you come to know a real person who regularly responds to you using his or her real personality, even if not showing you all aspects of that personality. And the positive, supportive way of relating to you is not a manipulation. It is real. Ok, it isn't exclusive, as many of us might wish for sometimes, but that doesn't mean it isn't genuine. It is just limited.
>
> I know it is hard to bring such feelings up to a doc, but if you can get to a point where you can muster up the courage, it might help to process them with him, not to go into depth about the meaning of the feelings for you, because he is not your therapist, but to work with him to strategize about how to be conscious of boundaries in a way that doesn't make you feel so uncomfortable, either because too much closeness feels too provocative, or because withdrawing and being distant makes you feel bad about yourself. Perhaps your therapist can talk to your son's doc for you?
Noa, I think you have made a good point. I think problems with closeness are especially hard to talk about; they are elicited by a variety of relationships, as Sara and Bob pointed out. But it may help to process them, not to create a dual relationship in therapy, but to explore why closeness is so complicated (e.g., I want closeness but fear it; want closeness but seek it from the wrong kinds of people; etc.).--Cindy W
Posted by Cindy W on May 17, 2000, at 9:33:54
In reply to Re: How Well Do You Know Your Therapist?, posted by Alan on May 16, 2000, at 17:31:55
> I find this to be the most interesting of threads that has come to light in a long time.
> All of your insights are the subject of your long hours of speculation and the most personal of thoughts about relationships at the most intimate levels. This is the type of babble that is most insightful - to me anyway.
> Intimacy is shared (one way or two way) on a very deep, profound level it seems in the best pdoc/patient relationships.
> How can one NOT put the doc on some pedistal or NOT hope that they have some magical powers to work on me so that I can get better?
> They're using some drugs to get me better that have the same chemical effect as someone being in love. That's a powerful position for a doc to be in I suppose. Not just a pdoc.
> Alan.
> ***********************************
Alan, it isn't just that there's using drugs to get us better. They care unconditionally which means a lot. They don't ask anything back. That's a powerful magnet, since most people in our lives want things from us.--Cindy W
Posted by Cindy W on May 17, 2000, at 9:36:46
In reply to Re: I beg to differ ...To Cindy, posted by Alan on May 16, 2000, at 23:33:41
>
> > Alan, I think you're right...the fact that you got to know each other (your therapist revealed things) made it difficult to continue the therapeutic relationship. Sounds like she became uncomfortable and didn't feel she could work through the implications. I would imagine that that would make it very painful for the client, when the therapist then says go work it through with somebody else...it's like losing a therapist, confidante, friend, "crush" all at once, which would really hurt. In the past, I've always held back in therapy, until now, and never had quite the intensity of positive feelings I have now toward my pdoc. Hope I can resolve it successfully with him. As a therapist, I've never had to deal with this (have always worked in state hospitals and now in a prison, where I'm not allowed to reveal anything, which really discourages transference, as does the rule that any untoward verbal expressions or behavior by an inmate gets them cuffed and disciplined by custody). So for me, transference and countertransference have never really been an issue, as a therapist. It's weird being on the other side of the fence! Just by virtue of being so intimate with someone (telling him/her all your life history, fears, mistakes, fantasies, etc.), makes it almost like a love relationship but without the physical intimacy. That's what pulls for the transference, I think. The therapist has to be secure enough in himself/herself and in his/her relationships not to need to reciprocate with emotional or physical intimacy. It's a very weird relationship. But it sure does allow all the client's projections, fantasies, and typical patterns to emerge! It seems useful but at the same time very scary.
> > I'm not sure I'd ever see the same therapist who's also seeing my spouse; that would be a little weird for me. I'd always wonder what they said about me when I'm not there. It's bad enough that my therapist sees a friend of mine (female). It's taken a while for me to realize that he does maintain confidentiality and doesn't disclose things I've told him in confidence to other people I know.--Cindy W
> **********************
> I wonder if I just asked to have a conversation with her if we could resolve this thing for me - and who knows, maybe she's curious. My wife stopped seeing her a couple of years ago and it's been several for me anyway. I know thorough my talk therapist who knows her well, that she learned alot from the relationship too. Do you think it would hurt Cindy? I wonder what the risks really are to such a conversation. I'm sure patients talk to pdocs down the road socially anyway...what is the matter with a talk with her on a one to one basis now...even if it is just for my sake. I wonder.
> Alan.
> ****************************
Alan, you might want to talk with her and just "clear the air" if you feel that would resolve it for you. That's why I want to talk about it with my pdoc, because I want to be totally honest and work through things and not keep going on the way I've been going through life (because that sure hasn't been working!). Working through this stuff with someone I trust, who has good boundaries, who is very ethical, may help (I hope).--Cindy W
Posted by Kay on May 17, 2000, at 14:35:15
In reply to Re: How Well Do You Know Your Therapist?, posted by Cindy W on May 17, 2000, at 9:33:54
> > ***********************************
> Alan, it isn't just that there's using drugs to get us better. They care unconditionally which means a lot. They don't ask anything back. That's a powerful magnet, since most people in our lives want things from us.--Cindy WCindy, I was interested to hear you say your therapist doesn't ask anything back. I feel like my therapist is another one of those "should" voices in my head.
For instance, he knows me well enough to activate me through making me feel guilty if I don't do what he recommends. (He once told me if I didn't do what he told me to, he'd have a hard time convincing my insurance company to continue to pay for my treatment.)
Kay
Posted by Noa on May 17, 2000, at 14:53:57
In reply to Therapist Relationship, posted by Kay on May 17, 2000, at 14:35:15
That is a problem with managed care. Sometimes, the cognitive-behavioral, short term model works and this fits in nicely with filling in insurance managed care forms, ie, what goals the patient is working on, etc. But often, this model is not the right one for patients. If you are made to feel you have to comply and do homework in order to address your needs, while for some this is a good way of working, it can also set up an unnecessary power struggle that just mimics other experiences you have had in your life. I think evoking the insurance company to get you to do your "work" is poor form.
However, that doesn't mean the therapist is a bad therapist. You may also be someone who is sensitive to the issue of compliance, and may have interpreted what the therapist said through the filter of "should-ism". I know there have been numerous times when my perceptions of things my therapist said were skewed, and clarifying them with him was really helpful.
My advice: talk to the therapist about your perception of what he said. It sounds like it can be a productive conversation.
Posted by allisonm on May 17, 2000, at 18:32:59
In reply to Re: Therapist Relationship, posted by Noa on May 17, 2000, at 14:53:57
I think that at times my therapist has asked for nearly the moon and stars. Once he asked me to keep living, which was the hardest thing of all to do at the time, and I told him he was asking for a lot. Other times he asks me to bear with him as he frustrates me to extremes. I know it is for the good in the end, but he does ask for a lot -- and often. Sometimes I think I'd rather have my teeth filled.
Posted by Cindy W on May 17, 2000, at 21:24:16
In reply to Therapist Relationship, posted by Kay on May 17, 2000, at 14:35:15
>
> Cindy, I was interested to hear you say your therapist doesn't ask anything back. I feel like my therapist is another one of those "should" voices in my head.
>
> For instance, he knows me well enough to activate me through making me feel guilty if I don't do what he recommends. (He once told me if I didn't do what he told me to, he'd have a hard time convincing my insurance company to continue to pay for my treatment.)
>
> Kay
Kay, my therapist has never made me feel guilty because I haven't done what he wanted; in fact, I don't even know what he wants me to do except that he seems to be prodding me toward goals I set when I started therapy (get a divorce, decrease depression, decrease OCD are the ones I'm aware of). He seems very nonjudgmental.--Cindy W
Posted by Cindy W on May 17, 2000, at 21:27:26
In reply to Re: Therapist Relationship, posted by Noa on May 17, 2000, at 14:53:57
> That is a problem with managed care. Sometimes, the cognitive-behavioral, short term model works and this fits in nicely with filling in insurance managed care forms, ie, what goals the patient is working on, etc. But often, this model is not the right one for patients. If you are made to feel you have to comply and do homework in order to address your needs, while for some this is a good way of working, it can also set up an unnecessary power struggle that just mimics other experiences you have had in your life. I think evoking the insurance company to get you to do your "work" is poor form.
>
> However, that doesn't mean the therapist is a bad therapist. You may also be someone who is sensitive to the issue of compliance, and may have interpreted what the therapist said through the filter of "should-ism". I know there have been numerous times when my perceptions of things my therapist said were skewed, and clarifying them with him was really helpful.
>
> My advice: talk to the therapist about your perception of what he said. It sounds like it can be a productive conversation.Kay, I agree with Noa that you should talk to your therapist about your perception. --Cindy W
Posted by Cindy W on May 17, 2000, at 21:30:23
In reply to Re: Therapist Relationship, posted by allisonm on May 17, 2000, at 18:32:59
> I think that at times my therapist has asked for nearly the moon and stars. Once he asked me to keep living, which was the hardest thing of all to do at the time, and I told him he was asking for a lot. Other times he asks me to bear with him as he frustrates me to extremes. I know it is for the good in the end, but he does ask for a lot -- and often. Sometimes I think I'd rather have my teeth filled.
Allisonm, your description of therapy is a good one! I'm always so terrified when I walk to my therapist's office I feel like I'm going to hyperventilate and have to sit for a few minutes to catch my breath. The hardest thing my pdoc ever asked me to do was to trust him and go on living, too (last December, I was ready to give up) and to try another medication, after nothing was working and OCD and depression were winning. --Cindy W
Posted by allisonm on May 17, 2000, at 21:51:05
In reply to Re: Therapist Relationship, posted by Cindy W on May 17, 2000, at 21:30:23
I see him again tomorrow, and I've been thinking about it for the last two days, but especially this evening -- as always. I spend so much more time worrying about what we're going to talk about, and then the session is over in a flash. The last few times I've been especially wired from the increased dose in meds, which hasn't helped my thinking. I get in there and get distracted and scattered enough that I forget to get into what I've been thinking about all week. Then I kick myself later.
I know I'm not saying anything new here. I do like having some "homework" -- things to think about and work on in between our appointments, but I do have to say I get pretty tired of the anticipation and worry.
BTW, thanks for the book recommendation. I've ordered a copy.
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