![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 40 to 64 of 72. Go back in thread:
Posted by dj on January 29, 2000, at 11:52:24
In reply to To Dj : Religion, Idiocy & the opp.- full version, posted by cag on January 29, 2000, at 11:04:50
> Whew! You is one angry dude!
Only when it comes to dogma, dude and folks who preach rather than practice. I'm not accusing anyone of being Satan's spawn...If you're up on your bible you'd know that Christ had little time for such folk. I grew up with and know many real, as opposed to pseudo, Christians whom I have plenty of time and respect for because they are open to genuine discusssion and don't afflict me with dogma, narrow minds and promises of hell.
BTW, the header above refers to a 1993 book by Tim Ward who also wrote: "What the Buddha Never Taught". I'll let him speak for himself about some of the issues discussed above:
xi - xii "Before I left home to wander Asia, my good friend Dan Matheson, a retired United Church minister, by way of expressing his concern over my journey, told me that early European maps often contained large blank spaces to represent areas where no explorers had ventured. These places were marked "There be Dragons Here."...In the East...the dragon is a symbol of transformation...If I wanted to encounter dragons, I knew I would have to leave behind all I had learned in college and in church...and learn to see with Eastern eyes...I debated going to Bible college and becoming a pastor, but instead chose to study philosophy...To me a faith that couldn't stand up to rigorous intellectual examination wasn't worth owning...After graduation I realized I had glimpsed only a sliver of the world's wisdom. I had traveled Europe, studied philosophy and studied Christianity, but now I felt confined by the Western perspective I had limited myself to, and hungered for more. I looked East and saw...its spiritual traditions were in bloom well before Socrates...and before Christ was born. Although I knew little of Buddhism, its dedication to penetrating illusion by focusing the mind appealed to me greatly. I decided to go to India, plant myself in a Buddhist monastery, and learn to meditate as a starting block for exploring Asia."
134 - "Buddhism only teaches about suffering and how to remove it," said the monk "Believe in God or not, as you like. Do you want to remove suffering? Then hear the Buddha's words..."
"The Buddha observed that life contains suffering," the monk begain again, "This is the First Noble Truth. This is not a little problem. The world is on fire with suffering. It burns and blinds...The causes of suffering are desire, hatred, and delusion. This is the Second Noble Truth. The root of suffering lies not in the world around us but in our craving and aversion and ignorance. We want to have things that are seperate from us, and we want to be apart from things that we cannot escape. Even the things we have that we like, they will be taken away from us, just as the health of youth is destroyed by sickness, old age and death...But there is a way to escape suffering, a way discovered by the Buddha. By cutting the cords of desire, hatred and ignorance we can be free. This is the Third Noble Truth. Simple to understand, yes but difficult to practice. The way to cut the cords is to follow the Buddha's Eightfold Path. This is the Fourth Noble Truth. All the Buddha taught was the walking of this path."
137 - "The ultimate goal for a Buddhist is nirvana," the monk began, "from ni -- meaning the negative and vana -- the craving that connects one lifetime to another. Nirvana is the departure from the lust that binds us to suffering. One must practice all eight elements of the path to attain this goal:
"First, right knowledge of the Four Noble Truths, and second right understanding of how to apply these Truthes to life with compassion and wisdom. Third, right morality; avoiding killing, stealing, wrongful sex, or taking liquor -- actions that create bad karma and lead to more craving. Fourth, right livelihood: avoiding work such as butchery, selling animals for food, slavery, or work that oppresses or harms living beings. Fifth, right speech: no lying, slander, foolish chatter or harshness...Sixth, right effort: not wasting past good deeds by commiting evil ones, but consistently treading on the path. Seventh, right concentration: the ability to restrain and focus your mind. Eighth, right meditation: the stilling of the mind."..."Meditation is to purify...Every action produces karma, good or bad. But meditation is nonaction...the effects of even one minute of meditation -- that can never be destroyed."
I neither claim these views to be right or wrong, however I believe they stand up nicely in comparims to Christian and other religious ideals and in historical terms much good has come from the true practice of Buddhism and Christianity too, for that matter, as well as other religions.
Posted by + on January 29, 2000, at 16:09:36
In reply to The Great Dragon's Fleas (long), posted by dj on January 29, 2000, at 11:52:24
The views I have stated, although known to be accurate, do not necessarily reflect the views of the Episcopal Church or the Christian Church in general.
Posted by Cam W. on January 29, 2000, at 16:14:33
In reply to Re: Religion, Idiocy & the opp.- full version, posted by dj on January 28, 2000, at 22:47:46
> FYI, the Pope recently announced that hell is not a place, just an idea, kinda like Nirvana.
>
> All books are written by men, interpreting their narrow slice of the universe. Yours is narrower than most because you revel in your dogmatic, simplistic beliefs. I believe Christianity has just as much to offer as any other philosophical set of principles, all of which have good and bad points NONE of which is superior to any other. The superiority comes in the practice of core principles not the mealy mouthed, sancitmonious crap that hyprocrites spew, while crucifying those who disagree with them.
>
> Following are some examples of true love in action, I received today, something I imagine you lack because you are so blinded by your self righteous attitude, which you cloak in the supposed words of God ie: good. My apologies that the formattings isn't as good as it might be as I don't have the time to edit it. Lovely stories though, unlike many in the barbarous Bible.
>
> "> > During my second month of nursing school, our
> > > > professor gave us a pop quiz.
> > > > I was a conscientious student and had breezed
> > > > through the questions, until I read the last one:
> > > > "What is the first name of the woman who cleans the
> > > > school?"
> > > >
> > > > Surely this was some kind of joke. I had seen the
> > > > cleaning woman several times. She was tall,
> > > >dark-haired and in her 50s,but how would I know her
> > > >name? I handed in my paper, leaving the last
> > > >question blank.
> > > >
> > > > Just before class ended, one student asked if the
> > > > last question would count toward our quiz grade.
> > > >"Absolutely," said the
> > > > professor. "In your careers,you will meet many
> > > >people. All are significant.
> > > >
> > > > They deserve your attention and care, even if all
> > > >you do is smile and say 'hello'."
> > > >
> > > > "I've never forgotten that lesson. I also learned
> > > > her name was Dorothy.
> > > >
> > > > Second Important Lesson~ Pick up in the Rain
> > > >
> > > > One night, at 11:30 PM, an older African American
> > > > woman was standing on the side of an Alabama highway
> > > > trying to endure a lashing rain storm. Her car
> > > > had broken down and she desperately needed a ride.
> > > > Soaking wet, she decided to flag down the next car.
> > > > A young white man stopped to help her, generally
> > > >unheard of in those conflict-filled 1960s.
> > > >
> > > > The man took her to safety, helped her get
> > > > assistance and put her into a
> > > > taxicab. She seemed to be in a big hurry, but wrote
> > > > down his address and thanked him. Seven days went
> > > >by and a knock came on the man's door. To his
> > > >surprise, a giant console color TV was delivered to
> > > >his home. A special note was attached.
> > > >
> > > > It read: "Thank you so much for assisting me on
> > > > the highway the other night. The rain drenched not
> > > > only my clothes, but also my spirits. Then
> > > > you came along. Because of you, I was able to make
> > > > it to my dying husband's bedside just before he
> > > >passed away. God bless you for helping me and
> > > > unselfishly serving others."
> > > > Sincerely, Mrs. Nat King Cole.
> > > >
> > > > Third Important Lesson ~ Always Remember Those
> > > > Who Serve You
> > > >
> > > > In the days when an ice cream sundae cost much
> > > > less, a 10-year old boy entered a hotel coffee shop
> > > > and sat at a table. A waitress put a glass of
> > > > water in front of him. "How much is an ice cream
> > > >sundae?" he asked.
> > > > "Fifty cents," replied the waitress. The little
> > > > boy pulled his hand out of
> > > > his pocket and studied the coins in it. "Well, how
> > > > much is a plain dish of
> > > > ice cream?" he inquired. By now more people were
> > > > waiting for a table and the waitress was growing
> > > >impatient.
> > > > "Thirty-five cents," she brusquely replied."
> > > > The little boy again counted his coins. "I'll have
> > > > the plain ice cream,"
> > > > he said. The waitress brought the ice cream, put
> > > >the
> > > > bill on the table and walked away.
> > > >
> > > > The boy finished the ice cream, paid the cashier
> > > > and left. When the waitress came back, she began to
> > > > cry as she wiped down the
> > > > table. There, placed beside the empty dish, were
> > > >two nickels and five pennies - You see,he couldn't
> > > >have the sundae, because he had to have enough left
> > > >to leave her a tip.
> > > >
> > > > Fourth Important Lesson ~ The Obstacle In Our
> > > > Path
> > > >
> > > > In ancient times, a King had a boulder placed on a
> > > > roadway.Then he hid himself and watched to see if
> > > > anyone would remove the huge rock.
> > > > Some of the king's wealthiest merchants and
> > > > courtiers came by and simply walked around it.
> > > >
> > > > Many loudly blamed the king for not keeping the
> > > > roads clear, but none did anything about getting the
> > > > stone out of the way.
> > > > Then a peasant came along carrying a load of
> > > > vegetables. Upon approaching the boulder, the
> > > >peasant laid down his burden and tried to move the
> > > >stone
> > > > to the side of the road. After much pushing and
> > > > straining, he finally succeeded.
> > > >
> > > > After the peasant picked up his load of vegetables,
> > > > he noticed a purse lying in the road where the
> > > >boulder had been.The purse contained many gold coins
> > > >and a note from the king indicating
> > > > that the gold was for the person who removed the
> > > >boulder from the roadway. The
> > > > peasant learned what many of us never understand.
> > > >
> > > > Every obstacle presents an opportunity to improve
> > > > our condition.
> > > >
> > > > Fifth Important Lesson ~ Giving When It Counts
> > > >
> > > > Many years ago, when I worked as a volunteer at a
> > > > hospital, I got to know a
> > > > little girl named Liz who was suffering from a rare
> > > > and serious disease. Her only chance of recovery
> > > >appeared to be a blood transfusion from her
> > > > 5-year old brother, who had miraculously survived
> > > > the same disease and had developed the antibodies
> > > > needed to combat the illness. The doctor
> > > > explained the situation to her little brother, and
> > > > asked the little boy if he would be willing to give
> > > > his blood to his sister. I saw him hesitate for
> > > >only a moment before taking a deep breath and
> > > >saying,
> > > > "Yes, I'll do it if it will save her..."
> > > >
> > > > As the transfusion progressed, he lay in bed next to his sister and smiled, as we all did, seeing the
> > > > color returning to her cheeks. Then,his face grew pale and his smile faded. He looked up at the doctor and asked with a trembling voice, "Will I start to die right away?"
> > > >
> > > > Being young, the little boy had misunderstood the doctor; he thought he was going to have to give his sister all of his blood in order to save her.
> > > >
> > > > You see understanding and attitude, after all, is everything.
>
>
>
>
>
> > "Don't lay your holier than thou crap on me."
> >
> > What is it that you are doing? Christians beleive that the Bible is the inspired word of God. Your books are mens ideas. I choose to get my information as close to the source as I can. The Bible's translation is known to be accurate because of the comparison of numerous documents. There are no doubt plenty of people more intelligent than me who are going to end up in Hell. I am not following them there.dj - Just read your parables and they really moved me. Thank you for the dose of humility, much appreciated. Sincerely - Cam W.
Posted by dj on January 29, 2000, at 16:27:22
In reply to Re: Religion, Idiocy & the opp.- full version, posted by Cam W. on January 29, 2000, at 16:14:33
> dj - Just read your parables and they really moved me. Thank you for the dose of humility, >much appreciated. Sincerely - Cam W.Thanks Cam. I'm not sure of the orginal source (maybe the Reader's Digest by the sounds of them) or whether they are all true or not. However, they did move me to a teary eye (particularly the one about the cleaning lady, & those about the young boys) so I felt they were worth sharing and germane to the discussion. Wisdom comes from many sources and personally I try not to discount any, even if I do occasionally allow my ire to show when I feel I'm being preached at.
Posted by Dr. Bob on January 30, 2000, at 2:56:15
In reply to Re: Religion and Depression -- for B.B., posted by dj on January 28, 2000, at 16:12:55
> Your media-fed ignorance is showing...
> Your narrow mindness is showing...
>
> Don't lay your holier than thou crap on me.> All books are written by men, interpreting their narrow slice of the universe. Yours is narrower than most because you revel in your dogmatic, simplistic beliefs...
>
> Following are some examples of true love in action, I received today, something I imagine you lack because you are so blinded by your self righteous attitude...> Of course plus as you really are a minus you would interpret it in the most narrow, nonsensical manner. BTW, further on the concept of hell it is a creation here on earth, that folks like you shape with your lack of imagination and insight and your historical tendencies to crucify or do even more hideous things to folks who don't march to your tunes.
I'm afraid I'm going to have to try to block dj from posting any further.
For this to be a supportive forum, people need to be civil. There aren't many rules here, but that's one of them. And dj was warned before:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20000101/msgs/18665.html
Bob
Posted by dj on January 30, 2000, at 5:43:34
In reply to Re: please be civil, posted by Dr. Bob on January 30, 2000, at 2:56:15
Sorry there, Dr. Bob but religious dogma is a flash point for me, not to mention the source of many 'civil' wars
> I'm afraid I'm going to have to try to block dj from posting any further.
>
> For this to be a supportive forum, people need to be civil. There aren't many rules here, but that's one of them. And dj was warned before:
>
> http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20000101/msgs/18665.html
>
> Bob
Posted by dj on January 30, 2000, at 6:07:10
In reply to Re: please be civil, posted by dj on January 30, 2000, at 5:43:34
Looking at the parts of the posts you pulled, together, I have to admit I did go over the top on this one. BIG trigger point for me, & good learning, on reflection. My apologies to + and BB for being excessively agressive in rebutting their beliefs and challenging their characters to the degree I did, whether I agree with them or not. Perhaps it's no small coincidence that I encountered a self-proclaimed Christian missionary on the transit system tonight who insisted on letting me know that beyond all my doubts Jesus loves me. So be it.
You are welcome to try and block me. Frankly it's impossible because I could always come in on a different machine &/or different alias, if I really wanted. However, I need a break from all of this diatribe and need to focus all my aggess energies on more positive things, particularly now that I've kicked the ADs and am feeling MUCH better. So to save you the trouble, I'll happily self-censure myself for now. That way, we all get a break!
Posted by Noa on January 30, 2000, at 8:10:00
In reply to P.S. -- Mea Culpa on the way to bed..., posted by dj on January 30, 2000, at 6:07:10
DJ, despite your disagreeable manner at times, I will miss your presence here. You are obviously smart and well read, and articulate. Interesting that you are off ADs, and although you report feeling better that way, I wonder if your irritability is related to being off the ADs. You have a lot to offer, but you need to tame your agressive tiger some, or channel it into something constructive.
Posted by Elizabeth on January 30, 2000, at 8:46:36
In reply to Re: P.S. -- Mea Culpa on the way to bed..., posted by Noa on January 30, 2000, at 8:10:00
Of course it's related to being off ADs. DJ, I'm sorry to see you go too because I feel you have a lot to offer. You say you feel better, but I can't imagine that you would feel better having such powerful reactions to interpersonal conflict. Isn't that overwhelming for you? (Feel free to write to me if you'd like. Currently shapere@aol.com, should remain so for at least another month.)
I think too little attention is paid in clinical practice to irritability as a symptom of emotional illness. I think that pathological irritability is probably distinct from both depression and bipolar disorder, though it can occur in conjunction with both as well as with other conditions (anxiety and personality disorders, schizophrenia). (As such, it's hard to treat: sometimes ADs are the solution, other times AEDs, lithium, benzos, antipsychotics, stimulants, ....)
There seems to be a tendency to blame the patient for being irritable rather than trying to help him or her (of course, it's hard to help someone who seems not to want to be helped, but many patients do display insight and realize that their irritability is extreme and problematic).
That said, I think DJ has something to be angry about, and it's the way that he (she?) is expressing it that is of concern, not the content of the anger. As an atheist, I'm constantly offended and insulted by "Christians" and others trying to ram their irrational "faith" down my throat or make condescending remarks that I am evil and going to hell. Atheists don't harrass people about their beliefs, they don't start wars, they don't engage in "ethnic cleansing" and the like, etc., so this seems like rank hypocrisy not to mention plain old rudeness.
It seems to me that those who foster religious beliefs owe me and other non-"spiritual" folks at least the courtesy of treating us as though our beliefs (*not* "faith") are not somehow inferior to theirs. This means, among other things, that I don't *want* you to pray for my "soul" - that's condescending. You may recall how disgusted and horrified non-Christians were (some Christians were too, in fact) when the Southern Baptist Convention urged members to pray for their souls. Same principle. It's your hubris that causes you to presume that you have the power to "save" others.
Posted by dj on January 30, 2000, at 13:13:47
In reply to irritability - DJ, Noa, posted by Elizabeth on January 30, 2000, at 8:46:36
Just had to make a comment on this. I appreciate both of your comments and posts and will still monitor the site, though a bit less. And elizabeth thanks for the offer, I may take you up on it at some time, but not right away.
Frankly, I don't see it about being off ADs as generally I do feel much better physically, mentally and emotionally, than I have in some time. I still have a St. Johns-Worts - 5HTP combo as a back-up. The ADs and my course of study of the past year both contributed a lot of physical and mental stress to me -- the former was supposed to help with the latter and did some (more on an emotional and cognitive level), much of which has been alleviated now.
I've been getting a lot of physical therapy -- chiropractory, massage and acupuncuture which is also helping with my physical and mental flexibility and am working on looking less like the Buddha and acting more like him. I've a ways to go yet on both fronts ; ). Eating less on the run and working out more regularly will help. Both have been difficult until recently because of immense fatigue, which I also attribute somewhat to coming off ADs, which I am also counterbalancing with lots of vitamins and herbal combos, like gingko.
The irritability I would attribute to many factors and am working on that through some groups with folks I know well and respect deeply, as well as on my own. Religion is a particular flash point as it was shoved down my throat, during my early years. My mother/father are/were wonderful folks but could be very dogmatic and unbending on religious issues and my Mom once almost disowned me due to a disagreement on this issue, which to me has always been about free choice.
My father, who had 7 priests (2 or 3 who were the former heads of a Catholic University on which he served on the Board of Governors for years, as well as many community boards and being one of two Canadian reps. on the international board of the Knights of Columbus, and an honourary Knight of Malta, etc.) talked her out of it. Recently she told me if she hadn't met my father she was leaning toward the nunnery. Instead she had 9 kids and as the oldest male in the middle of 6 females, prior to the arrival of my male sibs. my aggress energies were often shut down and one was expected to be seen not heard, unless you had something nice to say.
I was often blamed when 'emotional' encounters ocurred, rightfully or wrongfully. I was often the target of my father's wrath when he was home acting as the enforcer usually more with harsh words than nought. As a lawyer, who became a provincial Supreme Court justice, he was good at prosecuting and cutting to the quick, at times, as am I.
He was also a very just and compassionate man, generally, though a bit dogmatic in the expression of his views at times, as am I. He was also generally very liberal with a healthy dose of conservatism, as am I. Regardless I don't blame my father nor my mother for the way they were, or I am. They had lots of stressors in their lives, beyond nine obvious ones and are & were wonderful people, beneath sometimes foreboding countenances, as am I.
I have a love-hate relationship with spirituality/religion/theology and authority. I am a doubting Thomas who sometimes seeks but often does not find much that appeals in what passes for religions insights. However, most varieties of Buddhism offer insights which I find the most attractive and least dogmatic (which explains the former)because they are thougtfully and beautifully explained and always leave the onus on the seeker to look for themself. And they condemn none and welcome all. And historically they seem to have one of the most unblemished records of oppression of those who disagree with thier views, of which I am aware.
So goes it...the very best to EVERY, single one of you on your paths. Ours may cross again, yet. If anyone has any particularly interesting postings (especially on the science of dealing with and alleviating depression) which they feel I might be interested in, or just want to say hello, you can always copy them to me at jd-dm@rocketmail.com.
It's a sunny day, but somewhat chilly day, & I'm off for my first coffee, to read a paper or two and have some adventures...
> Of course it's related to being off ADs. DJ, I'm sorry to see you go too because I feel you have a lot to offer. You say you feel better, but I can't imagine that you would feel better having such powerful reactions to interpersonal conflict. Isn't that overwhelming for you? (Feel free to write to me if you'd like. Currently shapere@aol.com, should remain so for at least another month.)
>
Posted by dj on January 30, 2000, at 15:45:16
In reply to Re: irritability - my last post for awhile....long, posted by dj on January 30, 2000, at 13:13:47
Following should have read: My father, who had seven priests (...) present & officiating at his funeral (including my uncle, whom I am named after and who is a former missionary, but one who is very relaxed in his approach and leads by example, more than preaching)
>
> My father, who had 7 priests (2 or 3 who were the former heads of a Catholic University on which he served on the Board of Governors for years, as well as many community boards and being one of two Canadian reps. on the international board of the Knights of Columbus, and an honourary Knight of Malta, etc.) talked her out >of it.Many other current & past factors and general temperment contribute to my occasional shortness & aggressiveness which is balanced out with apathy when severely depressed, (and compassion at both times, though sometimes strained, in the manner of St. Paul, & others) which I am moving away from as I focus on, develop and channel my passions for truth, justice, etc...!
That's all for a while folks. Cheerio, it's been a slice...; )
Posted by + on January 30, 2000, at 17:07:05
In reply to irritability - DJ, Noa, posted by Elizabeth on January 30, 2000, at 8:46:36
As an atheist, I'm
constantly offended and insulted by "Christians" and others trying to ram their irrational
"faith" down my throat or make condescending remarks that I am evil and going to
hell. Atheists don't harrass people about their beliefs, they don't start wars, they don't
engage in "ethnic cleansing" and the like, etc., so this seems like rank hypocrisy not to
mention plain old rudeness.It seems to me that those who foster religious beliefs owe me and other non-"spiritual"
folks at least the courtesy of treating us as though our beliefs (*not* "faith") are not
somehow inferior to theirs. This means, among other things, that I don't *want* you to
pray for my "soul" - that's condescending. You may recall how disgusted and horrified
non-Christians were (some Christians were too, in fact) when the Southern Baptist
Convention urged members to pray for their souls. Same principle. It's your hubris that
causes you to presume that you have the power to "save" others.
I am also offended by what some non-christians say. We are doing what we feel compelled to do based on our beliefs. So are you saying we are the cause of all the worlds problems? Was Hitler, Saddam Hussein, or Ghengis Khan Christians? Are you going to dictate what we can believe concerning other beliefs? Are you going to tell me what I can pray about? Do atheist believe hubris is a sin? Why do you work so hard at defending a belief in nothing? If you don't like what you hear don't listen.
Posted by Janice on January 30, 2000, at 21:36:03
In reply to Religion etc. to Elizabeth, posted by + on January 30, 2000, at 17:07:05
Sorry to hear you'll be leaving the board. I'll e-mail you sometime. I'd offer you my e-mail address, but it includes my last name, which I don't like to post on a board.
I completely related to all that you said dj.
+ - you could turn almost anyone away from christianity. You'd serve God best by keeping your mouth shut. Janice
Posted by + on January 31, 2000, at 2:13:57
In reply to dj, posted by Janice on January 30, 2000, at 21:36:03
I am only stating what I believe. You not liking it in my eyes only reflects badly of you. It was not written for your benefit anyway. I will not apologize for taking a stand for what I believe in. Consider following your own advice.
Posted by Elizabeth on January 31, 2000, at 5:28:37
In reply to Religion etc. to Elizabeth, posted by + on January 30, 2000, at 17:07:05
> I am also offended by what some non-christians say. We are doing what we feel compelled to do based on our beliefs.
You might want to seek medical care if you have compulsions that force you to act in a particular way. Fortunately there are medications that can help.
> So are you saying we are the cause of all the worlds problems?
Uh, no, I never said anything resembling that.
> Was Hitler, Saddam Hussein, or Ghengis Khan Christians?
Hitler was. So were Torquemada, Mary I of England ("Bloody Mary"), the witch hunters at Salem, the Crusaders, and many more. Even today, Christians are committing acts of terror in the name of their religion, such as murdering doctors who perform abortions. Catholics and Protestants are still at each other's throats in Ireland. And of course, Slobodan Milosevic, mass murderer du jour, is a Christian.
> Are you going to dictate what we can believe concerning other beliefs? Are you going to tell me what I can pray about?
Not at all, but I think you should be aware of the arrogance implied in presuming to pray for another's soul.
> Do atheist believe hubris is a sin?
No. But Christians do (pride), so you probably ought to watch your behavior.
I can't speak for others, but I don't believe that something is right or wrong just because somebody told me so or because I read it in a book somewhere.
> Why do you work so hard at defending a belief in nothing?
I'm not working particularly hard; but why do you work so hard at defending a belief in something that is a fiction?
> If you don't like what you hear don't listen.
If nobody listens to you because of the arrogance with which you present your positions, you won't have much success getting your message across. Also, if you persist in ramming your positions down others' throats against their wills, you may one day find yourself the defendant in a harrassment lawsuit.
Posted by b.b. on January 31, 2000, at 9:01:18
In reply to effects of religious intolerance, posted by Elizabeth on January 31, 2000, at 5:28:37
Look obviously no one is going to convert anyone here. The only thing being accomplished is the insulting of posters and the temporary loss of another. Unfortunately Christianity has fallen into an easily stereotyped role and much of it's followers have become incredilby hypocritical (correct word?). Therefore many dont know enough to make a strong defense for the reasons they practice the faith. As for atheism I see that as being just irrational as any religion. Science has a long way to go to answer many questions that linger. As for the Hitler and all the rest well almost all of them (except the salem witch trials) carried their reigns of terror out in the name of the catholic church. The Salem witch trials occured under the Puritans. What do these two have in common. Both are equally opressive and cold perversions of Christ's doctrine.
I think we should abandon this post...this board can be put to better use
b.b.
Posted by b.b. on January 31, 2000, at 9:16:00
In reply to effects of religious intolerance, posted by Elizabeth on January 31, 2000, at 5:28:37
Some equally opressive atheists. Who forced their belief on the citizens of their countries.
1. Stalin (who murdered millions of his people)
2. Kruschev (continued Stalins reign of terror)
3. Kim Jong II of china
4. Mussolini
5. Castro
The list goes on and on for both sides
Posted by Adam on January 31, 2000, at 14:21:43
In reply to Re: effects of religious intolerance, posted by b.b. on January 31, 2000, at 9:01:18
>
> I think we should abandon this post...this board can be put to better use
> b.b.Oh, I don't know. Sometimes there's no better way to cut throught the b.s. than to have a good argument; arguments can be constructive and reasonably civil, intellectually stimulating, and often, once emotions have simmered down and all parties have had a chance to reflect, lead to a greater amount of consensus than existed before.
I think, exactly as b.b. pointed out, Elizabeth errs when she says atheists don't commit certain crimes against humanity. They do. Human beings from all walks of life can be sociopaths.
I'm not sure if killing people in the name of God (or whoever) is necessarily a perversion of religious beliefs, though. It seems rather cliche to point this out, but there's a fair amount of God-sanctioned killing going on in the Bible. The most obvious example is the book of Joshua (ironically, the hebraic form of Jesus)...
"And Joshua said, Hereby ye shall know that the living God is among you, and that he will without fail drive out from before you the Canaanites, and the Hittites, and the Hivites, and the Perizzites, and the Girgashites, and the Amorites, and the Jebusites."
(Joshua, 3:10)
The Canaanites especially, having the misfortune of living in the middle of the Promised Land, are nearly eradicated. But of course they are anti-Yahwist, oversexed barbarians who owe their allegiance to the depraved Baals and Astartes, and really ought to be exterminated, since they're in the way. Genocide, five books away from Genesis. Like it or not, that's the message. So when a Baruch Goldstien type commits an attrocious crime and then says it's the proper thing to do, why is it such a shock?
But Christians and Jews alike tend to ignore a lot that textual stuff these days. I'm certainly not complaining. What disturbs me a bit is that so many devout followers of Western religions actually know very little about the history and the literature of their own faith, or regard such matters as relatively unimportant. This seems rather strange, and never fails to amaze me. I've had so many discussions where I've pointed out various disturbing elements of Judeo/Christian doctrine only to be told things like "Jesus never said that!" Then, when I produce the contrary evidence, I get told that, say, clearly Jesus was misquoted on this occasion, or that what I have found is a human perversion of Christ's true message.
Maybe, maybe not. I would feel a lot better about the average joe explaining to me what religion X really prescribes if I had some evidence that they knew what they were talking about. This goes for both the positives and the negatives. This kind of behavior becomes particularly disturbing when it comes from active evangelists.
So, you know, pray for people all you like. Spread the word with sincerity: It's your right in a country where freedom of religion and speech are considered sacred. Just maybe give your Bible a good reading. Pick up a good, non-biased book on the history of your faith. Of course religions are allowed to evolve and modernise, just try and be aware of the antecedents, if, for no other reason, you then might better understand the unhappyness and even the revulsion your faith can produce in moral, critically-thinking members of society who reject it out of principle, not, say, out of ignorance and bigotry.
Posted by + on January 31, 2000, at 16:30:04
In reply to effects of religious intolerance, posted by Elizabeth on January 31, 2000, at 5:28:37
Defending your religious beliefs is a mental illness? Are you sure about Hitler? Don't worry yourself about me praying for your soul. Being concerned about someones fate is arrogance?? Where do you get your information and how do you know its true, is it not something you have chosen to believe? Why defend a belief in nothing at all. So its fiction is it? I am not forcing my beliefs on anybody, I am just stating my beliefs. As far as I know, freedom of speech and freedom of religion are still legal rites in this country.
Posted by + on January 31, 2000, at 18:56:17
In reply to Re: effects of religious intolerance, posted by Adam on January 31, 2000, at 14:21:43
moral, critically-thinking members of society who reject it out of principle, not, say, out of ignorance and bigotry.
Morality has to have a basis. If your basis is not the same as mine then we don't have the same view of what morality is. The Church has to reach various audiences, some intelligent, some not so intelligent, some conservative, some liberal etc.. If you are offended by a particular Church, evangelist or whatever, maybe you are not at the right place. The Message is geared to different audiences. I don't necessarily like everything I hear, but I don't condemn the Church because someone offended me. Also, do you know of a religion that has more martyrs than Christianity? What does this tell you? Will someone who feels unsure of their beliefs die for them? How many atheist martyrs are there? There are a lot of disquieting things in the Bible, but if there is a God should he have to conform to our way of thinking or should we have to conform to his way of thinking? I personally don't support any aggression against other beliefs or denominations within the Church other than by verbal argument. I am upset with what I see as the degeneration of the media, (TV, internet etc.), and for you historians, are you familiar with the fall of Rome?
Posted by Janice on January 31, 2000, at 20:38:17
In reply to Oops again, that was to Adam, posted by + on January 31, 2000, at 19:03:12
It's very obvious (to me anyway) who you are. Janice
Posted by + on January 31, 2000, at 21:11:34
In reply to +, why don't you sign your name? , posted by Janice on January 31, 2000, at 20:38:17
Is it? Who am I? Perhaps you noticed a + resembles a cross?
Posted by Elizabeth on January 31, 2000, at 22:18:28
In reply to Re: effects of religious intolerance, posted by Adam on January 31, 2000, at 14:21:43
> I think, exactly as b.b. pointed out, Elizabeth errs when she says atheists don't commit certain crimes against humanity. They do. Human beings from all walks of life can be sociopaths.
Atheists don't kill, persecute, or harrass people in the name of atheism. (I think Stalin is a bad example since he did these things to people for being his political enemies; religion was incidental.)
> I'm not sure if killing people in the name of God (or whoever) is necessarily a perversion of religious beliefs, though.
It isn't, though many try to claim that those who engage in such behavior are not "real Christians" (in order to make their claim that Christians never err a tautology).
> But Christians and Jews alike tend to ignore a lot that textual stuff these days. I'm certainly not complaining. What disturbs me a bit is that so many devout followers of Western religions actually know very little about the history and the literature of their own faith, or regard such matters as relatively unimportant.
I was talking to a friend about this today; she thinks that their beliefs aren't about consistency -- they're about doing what they want. If they have to do some kind of contorted rationalizing to get what they want, they will.
Posted by b.b. on February 1, 2000, at 0:18:45
In reply to Re: effects of religious intolerance, posted by Elizabeth on January 31, 2000, at 22:18:28
>
> Atheists don't kill, persecute, or harrass people in the name of atheism. (I think Stalin is a bad example since he did these things to people for being his political enemies; religion was incidental.)>Actually Stalin was the main reason the catholic church never gained a foothold in the USSR. The persecution of priests and followers by Stalin is well documented. He did this in the name of "Mother Russia". Religion and government are never incidental. The two almost always go hand in hand. That is why we have the separation of church and state in our constitution.
> > I'm not sure if killing people in the name of God (or whoever) is necessarily a perversion of religious beliefs, though.>Adam your knowledge of the Old Testament is interesting. What motivated you to study the Bible? Actually though if you read the New Testament and this is where the word Christian is derived Christ's doctrine differs enormously with that of the Old Testament. That is one of the reasons why he was persecuted. Christ preaches a doctrine of humility and pacifism one that was a stark contrast to the powerful Isreal of the Old Testament. The word Christian is used much to loosely and many have used it to seek personal gains. Hence a perversion of the actual faith.
>
> > But Christians and Jews alike tend to ignore a lot that textual stuff these days. I'm certainly not complaining. What disturbs me a bit is that so many devout followers of Western religions actually know very little about the history and the literature of their own faith, or regard such matters as relatively unimportant.> I agree. The Western culture itself does not place much value anymore on religion of any sort. That is one reason many are disillusioned and cynical whenever Christ's name is mentioned. Too many people become comfortable with going to church every sunday and leaving it at that. It's funny because sunday isnt even the true sabbath.
Posted by Dr. Bob on February 1, 2000, at 0:48:41
In reply to dj, posted by Janice on January 30, 2000, at 21:36:03
> + - you could turn almost anyone away from christianity. You'd serve God best by keeping your mouth shut.
C'mon, everyone. Please be respectful of the views of others. Even if you consider them wrong. What goes around, comes around.
Bob
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