![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 25. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by yardena on August 22, 1999, at 20:02:38
I am curious to know how people have dealt with their jobs while struggling with depression.
In a previous job, I never disclosed my struggles with depression to my supervisors, but did disclose to a couple of trusted coworkers. One supervisor definitely suspected that one prolonged absence, which I reported was due to a physical ailment, was due to depression (it was), and she tried to coax a "confession" out of me. Since I was never asked to submit a doctor's note, I decided I wanted to keep the reason for my absence to myself. I am glad I did, because, for completely unrelated reasons, my relationship with my employer became adversarial (I blew the whistle about something and was promptly fired). If I had disclosed my depression, it would probably be used against me in legal procedings.
Despite this experience, I surprised myself by making the decision the other day to disclose my depression to my immediate supervisor in my new job. Seems risky for someone who just started a new job and was pretty much screwed by my last employer. Why did I talk to her openly?
Well, for one thing, I was supposed to have taken a vacation, but postponed it repeatedly and finally canceled it altogether, because I just couldn't manage it while depressed. She and others were concerned about me not taking my vacation. During recent weeks, I had taken dribs and drabs of time off, due to coming in late when I couldn't get myself out of bed, or going home early because my stamina was limited, or calling in sick altogether. This was passable conduct, because I was not on a rigid schedule over the summer anyway. But, I was concerned somewhat about the inconsistency. At the beginning of the summer, we had all indicated our intended work schedules and even though it is not rigidly held to, I was concerned about not keeping to my intended schedule and how this is perceived by others. I had put off going on my vacation because I was too depressed to manage it. I thought I might take it later in the summer, but in the end decided I wouldn't enjoy it much and it was all too overwhelming for me to make it happen. Anyway, by the time I started to feel a little better, I realized I wanted to work everyday because I feel better at work. This has always been the case for me. Somehow, at work, I am able to emerge from the confinement of depression. When my depression begins to invade my work space, as it did at one point this summer, I know I am in trouble. There was a point this summer when this happened. I cried several times at work, was unable to focus, became obsessed with something insignificant that I had to do at home, etc. That was a signal that I was in bad shape. Because, even though my depression often impacts my ability to get myself to work, once I am there, it usually gets checked at the door. If it comes into the building with me, that is a danger signal.
I also was feeling concerned about the fact that a project I was working on was taking longer than it should, because of how hard it was for me to focus, and because I had gotten bogged down in too many details. And I was concerned about how I was perceived, as a new employee, because of my inconsistency and all of my "illnesses".
I sensed I would be able to trust my supervisor, and at this point, continue to believe I was correct. She was extremely supportive and disclosed that her father has bipolar illness and that she knows what a struggle depression can be. I wanted her to know, I think, because I wanted support, and I hate lying. She told me she perceives me as conscientious, and that my inconsistent work schedule had not really been an issue.
I hope my instinct about her trustworthiness is accurate, because I sense that in most cases, it is not really safe to disclose one's depressive illness to one's boss.
I don't see my disclosure to her as license to be excused from my responsibilities. I still need to improve my ability to get to work on time and to limit my absences. In terms of the quality of my work, I am not worried because somehow I have always managed to do a good enough job despite depression related absences, etc.
How have other people managed employment issues while struggling with depression?
Posted by Racer on August 22, 1999, at 20:29:23
In reply to Depression and Work, posted by yardena on August 22, 1999, at 20:02:38
Not me. Most of my life, depression has made it difficult for me to handle a job for any length of time. Mostly it's because of an inability to get along with other people, which is often a problem for me anyway. Not that I'm hostile, or anything like that, but I'm so insecure that I don't speak up for myself well, and when I do, I don't do it well.
Right now, I'm in a situation that feels good, and my depression is known to the one other person who 'needs' to know, my collegue/semi-boss. While my depression still effects my work, both in having a hard time getting there in the morning, and having difficulties in concentrating and in dealing with people, for the most part I'm doing well enough to get by. Now my situation is also different from what it's ever been before, because I'm the only person doing what I do, and the only person who really understands what I do. In other situations, I've had to try to bend to someone else's will, which made the depression worse. This time, I'm the one holding the whip over myself, mostly, and I'd be next to impossible to replace. And, amazingly, when I say something, everyone else says, "Yeah! OK, that's what we'll do!" In other words, I get respect and support in this job. Not nearly enough money to live on, but respect and support.
I've never disclosed depression to an employer, and would hesitate to do so for a number of reasons. I don't know what the answer is, because I really do believe that mood disorders, if they do in fact stem from brain chemistry imbalances, are a true analogy to any other chemical imbalance, diabetes for example. In that case, they should not have any more shame attached to them. The reality, though, is that they still do have shame attached. Maybe it's time for us to come out of the closet. Until then, though, I'm no martyr, so I'll have to follow on this issue. There's shame in that, too, but no one would know except myself.
Great subject for discussion, though. And good for you for your bravery.
Posted by JohnL on August 23, 1999, at 3:54:59
In reply to Depression and Work, posted by yardena on August 22, 1999, at 20:02:38
Yardena, very interesting topic. When I am depressed, which is a lot, I find what I have to do is focus on the basics of my work and do them the best I can, minute by minute, hour by hour. Talking to others or trying to go the extra mile is way over my head, so I keep to myself and do real good at the few things I focus on. When I do have to talk with someone, I take on an actor's role and I really do a pretty good fake-job. I basically draw an invisible circle around myself, kind of like a protective shell, and find my little world to be an escape from the larger world of depression outside my shell. Does that make sense? Basically I'm in survival mode. I push real hard to get done what has to be done, and put the rest on a shelf for a better day. Most times the hardest part is just getting in the car to go to work.
I do not share my situation with anyone. I hide it as best I can. If there were ever layoffs or a supervisor looking for reasons to trim the payroll, such information might go against me. If that happened, proving it would be nearly impossible. Besides, I don't trust rumors and I don't like the way they reach ears I never intended.
I think many of us perform very well at what we do, often better than "normal" folks, because we find work to be an escape and we put all we have into it. Consistency certainly suffers. More achieved when OK. Less achieved when depressed. But overall a strong effort. I recently got an award for Manager of the Year in my company. They obviously don't have a clue! JohnL.
Posted by Roo on August 23, 1999, at 7:56:55
In reply to Re: Depression and Work, posted by JohnL on August 23, 1999, at 3:54:59
I agree that this is a really interesting topic.
I sometimes wonder if the reason I haven't been
much of an "achiever" in the career world
is my depression. I wonder if it's the reason I've
stayed in a totally unfulfilling job for the last
5 years. I know it's a lack of confidence, but sometimes
I also worry that if I took a job where I'd actually
have to think and use my brain that I wouldn't be
able to do it. Sometimes, when I think about it
logically, I think it makes absolutely no sense at
all that I'm doing mindless, meaningless work. Why?
I'm smart, creative, conscientious....
I don't know--career stuff has always opened up a
whole area of sadness and helplessness for me. I
want so badly to have work I love, but I keep getting
in my own way. I don't believe in myself.
On a more positive note, this is starting to change.
I'm just now starting to believe that I can have a
happy work life, and I think now that I'm starting
to believe it can (and will) be mine, it'll eventually
happen. (I'm also putting this into action--applying
for jobs that I'm actually excited about every week).Another more practical thing about work and depression
that's hard is changing meds--it's always a scarey
and unpredictable thing, and I really get anxious
about how I'll treat people--my co-workers, if I'll
snap at them over the littlest thing.
I find that work is very stressful if I'm not on
medication. I can't concentrate, I cry easily, get
offended easily, and don't want to do a damn thing.I've never told a supervisor about my depression.
I feel like this is still a very misunderstood
disease and I don't trust people who are not familiar
with the disease personally (either in themselves
or with a loved one) can really understand. I fear
judgement too much--if I told a supervisor I was too
depressed to come to work, I just imagine them thinking
that's a lame ass excuse. I might think the same
thing if I didn't have depression and didn't know what
it was like.
Posted by Janice on August 23, 1999, at 13:20:32
In reply to Re: Depression and Work, posted by Roo on August 23, 1999, at 7:56:55
Great topic! I agree with all of you. I never mention or talk about my disorders at work. I kind of hang them all at the door, or so I think, until I think about how under-employed I have been all my life, or how up until 2 years ago, I had only ever had part-time or job share positions - this is, of course, very clearly due to my disorders. Physically and mentally, I just couldn't do more. I've always loved going to work, I enjoy people, the routine is the best thing for my health. But since it is my livelihood, and since I have never had to tell anyone, I have never told anyone. Sometimes, if people ask why I only work part-time, I'll say it's because I'm pursuing education or some artistic endevour. Yardena, in the case you're describing, I too could have seen myself confiding in my supervisor. But my general rule of thumb is not talking about it.
Now in my personal life, or even in my 'not professional life' I'll tell anyone, that is, if it comes up naturally and I have known the person over a period of time. Whenever I have the opportunity to defend someone who is mentally ill, I do, in a casual and spontaneous way. So far I am always pleased with people's responses. Let's face it mental illness is all over the place, I see it at so many different places and in so many levels of society. I just try to do what I can without potentially jeopradizing my life in any way. Janice.
Posted by Malia on August 23, 1999, at 15:35:45
In reply to Depression and Work, posted by yardena on August 22, 1999, at 20:02:38
I decided to disclose my depression to my Manager and the Owner/Partner of my Law Firm where I work. I did this while on Effexor, mind you and had "the guts" to say anything to anybody (LOL)!
In any case, I've gotten positive reactions, and the Partner told me that I should've told him long ago that I was having problems that were affecting my work (yeah, but it would've been risky). I've been at my job for 10 years, so it made it easier knowing that I perfomed better in previous years. I had numerous crying spells while at work which led up to my depression for the third time in my life. I lost my father to cancer in January, so no one could understand. I was no longer "mourning," I was mentally ill from the stress and change that had taken place in several areas of my life in such a short period of time. They know I'm on meds too, but I told just 5 of my close co-workers. I haven't felt the stigma of mental illness at all. If anything, people have opened up to me that they know someone like me, or can see why I need the meds and the therapy. I'm probably just fortunate to have understanding co-workers. Being open about this makes my life so much easier. Hiding my problems gives me more stress actually.
Posted by Malia on August 23, 1999, at 15:43:26
In reply to Re: Depression and Work, posted by Malia on August 23, 1999, at 15:35:45
I don't know if this makes any difference, but part of my depression was caused by new situations that occured at work immediately after my father's death. I went back to work less than one week after the funeral, and then 3 things happened at work that I did not need: 1) We merged with another firm, so new data had to be input (alot too) 2) The new parters demanded so much more detailing in my work that the old partners never demanded of me 3) My computer "crashed" and I lost 3 weeks worth of data about one month after the above crisies. So, with my personal problems following the death of my father stacking up with my work problems, I just about brokedown! Thanks for listening to my ranting and raving...
Posted by JohnL on August 23, 1999, at 16:16:14
In reply to Depression and Work, posted by yardena on August 22, 1999, at 20:02:38
Such an interesting topic I had to come back. I do OK with my current blue collar job. But I gotta admit, I might likely have been a psychiatrist or a lawyer or something had I not had depression all my life. Heck, it took 10 years to get through college with all the down periods making study impossible. So though I do OK where I'm at, I think I missed out on far greater things as a direct result of untreated depression. I don't share my condition with anyone at work, but I am quick to defend anyone with mental problems. One girl in my company has been out of work with manic depression, and the stigma seems pretty strong. People view her as some kind of alien or deserter or weakling or something. So for me, easy does it, walk soft. JohnL.
Posted by Malia on August 23, 1999, at 18:31:14
In reply to Re: Depression and Work, posted by JohnL on August 23, 1999, at 16:16:14
I may be overevaluating the responses here, but where is everybody from in the US/outside? I'm from "liberal and open" San Francisco, California. Could my situation be partly due to me working in a very liberal state? So many people I know have some form of mental illness and are open about it. I rarely get a negative reaction from being in therapy. I've been to the mid-western states, and I noticed how private the people can be. There are all types of people living in San Francisco that hardly anyone here is shocked by what they see or hear. For instance, 1/3 of my staff is openly gay (both men and women). [BTW, no, we are not all gay, nor am I] When I visited relatives in the mid-west, however, I felt so closed and suppressed. Again, it's just a thought...
Posted by Yardena on August 23, 1999, at 21:20:03
In reply to Re: Depression and Work/regional discussion, posted by Malia on August 23, 1999, at 18:31:14
Wow, I am "psyched" about all the responses! I just read them all, and each one got me thinking more about my relationship to work and depression. John, your first post made me realize that what I said about "checking my depression at the door" is not entirely true. I guess there have always been those days when I am a little down, low energy, unmotivated. I found that on a day like that I was fine responding to people but not good at taking initiative, especially with paper work and organizational tasks, which is my weakest area anyway. I would also take some time on those days to read, something relevant to my profession, which I could rationalize as being "productive" in a way.
Malia, it never occurred to me until you mentioned it that the attitudes about depression and other disorders is different in different parts of the country, but it definitely makes sense. I don't know what this region's reputed culture is, but I can guess--I live in Washington, DC! We all know about people whose careers have been ruined because their having been in psychiatric treatment was exposed in the press. On the other hand, Tipper Gore just went on national television and disclosed her own struggle with depression and her treatment, and is advocating for changing public and institutional attitudes about depression.
Roo and John both wrote about wondering what they might have done with their lives were it not for the depression. I have often wondered this too. Although I have a professional job and a couple of degrees, I didn't get there in a straight line. College was very hard for me. I almost dropped out several times. I changed my major three times. I had to go to summer school to finish the credits I needed after I actually walked through graduation. When I went to graduate school, I took incompletes because of my depression, and took a lot longer to finish my degree than expected. For a long time I, too, stayed in jobs that, although I liked them, were low paying and did not require the training I had. After a few years of therapy, I actually had a few relatively good years in my late twenties. I still struggled with depression during those years, but nothing too severe. That's when I finally figured out what I wanted to "major in" and went back to school. It was hard, but I enjoyed it as I had never enjoyed school before. In college and my first graduate school experience, I had such low self esteem that I would actually feel like some kind of outsider in the classes, like I had no right to ask questions, etc. I was too shy to ask questions anyway! I was always overwhelmed and had such difficulty writing papers. I would obsess and obsess and never be able to put anything down because I was already editing it in my head and the internal editor was so hypercritical that I would feel anticipatory shame and just freeze. But when I went back to school at 28, I was more ready, and computers were there to save the day! What an incredible liberation it was to be able to write and tell myself that I could edit afterward. (Of course, on the other hand, I now know how computers can add to my compulsive, never ending reediting, etc.) But at the time it helped me so much. It was also the first time that I was in school for myself and not for my parents or anyone else. I was there because I wanted to be.
Those few years of relative freedom from depression didn't last long enough, but at least it gave me the chance to get a foundation for a career which has been the one somewhat stable thing in my life.
I think there are other ways my depression holds me back professionally. I do a good enough job, but don't have a lot of self confidence, especially for taking on new risks. My coworkers might get up and present their ideas to an audience and I would typically hold back. I often feel it is hard for me to "know what I know". In other words, I intuitively know how to do my job, but am not real confident about expressing knoweldge, showing expertise. I know I know it intuitively, and use it, but am not so good at talking about it in a coherent way. I also tend to be plagued by so many self doubts, it is usually safest for me to bow out of anything that feels like a risk. Sometimes, tho, I want so badly to be able to do what other people do to show what they know, like make a presentation, but when I work on a presentation, I tend to get too anxious to carry it through.
As you can see, I don't mind expressing myself in writing (now, as opposed to the first 28 years of my life!), and doing so with you guys is so cathartic for me. I hope you don't mind how long I have babbled on.
Keep writing on this or other topics. I love to read it. I look forward every day to coming home and reading this forum!
Posted by Ruth on August 23, 1999, at 21:43:36
In reply to Depression and Work, posted by yardena on August 22, 1999, at 20:02:38
I'm so glad you opened up this discussion. It has gotten me thinking. When I first got sick 3 years ago I was (or had been) functioning well in a high responsibility, high stress position. But as the depression took hold it started taking me twice as long to do half as much. Finally I took a leave of absence for 3 months during which time I had multiple med trials and ended up hospitalized. When I left I gave no explanation to anyone (except to my immediate supervisor) and when I returned I told my staff only that I had been ill. I continued to have trouble functioning and subsequently took another leave. Without going into all of what happened there are two things I wanted to share.
The first is that after the fact one of my staff members said to me that what was hard for her was knowing that there was clearly something very wrong, but because I wasn't talking about it she didn't know how to be supportive or express her concern. (I'm a social worker). I realize now that in not saying anything I robbed myself of support that might have helped me.
The second thing is that I believe part of my decision not to say anything came from my own shame at being ill and my not accepting that it is a biological illness (ironic given that I'm in the field). And so I felt that it was something that would negatively effect how people saw me.
So what will I do when I return to work? I'm honestly not sure. I do think if the depression begins to get out of hand I would say something. Because when the depression is bad it is apparent to others that something is wrong so perhaps it is better to acknowledge it rather than having others just see things deteriorating. I think I would likely just share it with a supervisor and let that person know of my apprehension in sharing it.
I'm anxious to hear other people's thoughts.
> I am curious to know how people have dealt with their jobs while struggling with depression.
>
> In a previous job, I never disclosed my struggles with depression to my supervisors, but did disclose to a couple of trusted coworkers. One supervisor definitely suspected that one prolonged absence, which I reported was due to a physical ailment, was due to depression (it was), and she tried to coax a "confession" out of me. Since I was never asked to submit a doctor's note, I decided I wanted to keep the reason for my absence to myself. I am glad I did, because, for completely unrelated reasons, my relationship with my employer became adversarial (I blew the whistle about something and was promptly fired). If I had disclosed my depression, it would probably be used against me in legal procedings.
>
> Despite this experience, I surprised myself by making the decision the other day to disclose my depression to my immediate supervisor in my new job. Seems risky for someone who just started a new job and was pretty much screwed by my last employer. Why did I talk to her openly?
>
> Well, for one thing, I was supposed to have taken a vacation, but postponed it repeatedly and finally canceled it altogether, because I just couldn't manage it while depressed. She and others were concerned about me not taking my vacation. During recent weeks, I had taken dribs and drabs of time off, due to coming in late when I couldn't get myself out of bed, or going home early because my stamina was limited, or calling in sick altogether. This was passable conduct, because I was not on a rigid schedule over the summer anyway. But, I was concerned somewhat about the inconsistency. At the beginning of the summer, we had all indicated our intended work schedules and even though it is not rigidly held to, I was concerned about not keeping to my intended schedule and how this is perceived by others. I had put off going on my vacation because I was too depressed to manage it. I thought I might take it later in the summer, but in the end decided I wouldn't enjoy it much and it was all too overwhelming for me to make it happen. Anyway, by the time I started to feel a little better, I realized I wanted to work everyday because I feel better at work. This has always been the case for me. Somehow, at work, I am able to emerge from the confinement of depression. When my depression begins to invade my work space, as it did at one point this summer, I know I am in trouble. There was a point this summer when this happened. I cried several times at work, was unable to focus, became obsessed with something insignificant that I had to do at home, etc. That was a signal that I was in bad shape. Because, even though my depression often impacts my ability to get myself to work, once I am there, it usually gets checked at the door. If it comes into the building with me, that is a danger signal.
>
> I also was feeling concerned about the fact that a project I was working on was taking longer than it should, because of how hard it was for me to focus, and because I had gotten bogged down in too many details. And I was concerned about how I was perceived, as a new employee, because of my inconsistency and all of my "illnesses".
>
> I sensed I would be able to trust my supervisor, and at this point, continue to believe I was correct. She was extremely supportive and disclosed that her father has bipolar illness and that she knows what a struggle depression can be. I wanted her to know, I think, because I wanted support, and I hate lying. She told me she perceives me as conscientious, and that my inconsistent work schedule had not really been an issue.
>
> I hope my instinct about her trustworthiness is accurate, because I sense that in most cases, it is not really safe to disclose one's depressive illness to one's boss.
>
> I don't see my disclosure to her as license to be excused from my responsibilities. I still need to improve my ability to get to work on time and to limit my absences. In terms of the quality of my work, I am not worried because somehow I have always managed to do a good enough job despite depression related absences, etc.
>
> How have other people managed employment issues while struggling with depression?
Posted by Yardena on August 23, 1999, at 22:05:05
In reply to Re: Depression and Work, posted by Ruth on August 23, 1999, at 21:43:36
Ruth,
I am a social worker, too. I found that when I was working with other mental health professionals there were some that had what I would consider healthy attitudes about it and some that didn't. In fact there were some who were quite prejudiced against people struggling with depression and other disorders, even though they would not admit it, nor be able to recognize this prejudice in themselves. I think for these people, there was a need to set up an "us and them" barrier, as though the world is comprised of two kinds of people--patients and clinicians. I think this is because they use this imaginary barrier to help themselves feel more protected when they work with patients, because it is stressful work sometimes, and the kinds of distress that patients talk about can be difficult to hear. On the other hand, there are also plenty of people in the field who are more more humanistic and see people as people. These clinicians are able to see the patients that come to see them as people struggling with problems, rather than seeing them as diagnoses. I believe that these are the clinicans who are secure enough not to need to erect artificial "us and them" barriers. Still, I sensed that it was not safe to disclose my depression to any but my closest coworkers, because there were those other clinicians who were very judgmental.
I am glad you mentioned that you are a social worker, because I was kind of hesitant to do so, myself.
Posted by Yardena on August 23, 1999, at 22:07:09
In reply to Re: Depression and Work, posted by Yardena on August 23, 1999, at 22:05:05
P.S.
By the way...the supervisor that I did recently disclose my depression to is not a mental health professional. She is an educator.
Posted by Phil on August 24, 1999, at 7:18:48
In reply to Depression and Work, posted by yardena on August 22, 1999, at 20:02:38
> I am curious to know how people have dealt with their jobs while struggling with depression.
>
> In a previous job, I never disclosed my struggles with depression to my supervisors, but did disclose to a couple of trusted coworkers. One supervisor definitely suspected that one prolonged absence, which I reported was due to a physical ailment, was due to depression (it was), and she tried to coax a "confession" out of me. Since I was never asked to submit a doctor's note, I decided I wanted to keep the reason for my absence to myself. I am glad I did, because, for completely unrelated reasons, my relationship with my employer became adversarial (I blew the whistle about something and was promptly fired). If I had disclosed my depression, it would probably be used against me in legal procedings.
>
> Despite this experience, I surprised myself by making the decision the other day to disclose my depression to my immediate supervisor in my new job. Seems risky for someone who just started a new job and was pretty much screwed by my last employer. Why did I talk to her openly?
>
> Well, for one thing, I was supposed to have taken a vacation, but postponed it repeatedly and finally canceled it altogether, because I just couldn't manage it while depressed. She and others were concerned about me not taking my vacation. During recent weeks, I had taken dribs and drabs of time off, due to coming in late when I couldn't get myself out of bed, or going home early because my stamina was limited, or calling in sick altogether. This was passable conduct, because I was not on a rigid schedule over the summer anyway. But, I was concerned somewhat about the inconsistency. At the beginning of the summer, we had all indicated our intended work schedules and even though it is not rigidly held to, I was concerned about not keeping to my intended schedule and how this is perceived by others. I had put off going on my vacation because I was too depressed to manage it. I thought I might take it later in the summer, but in the end decided I wouldn't enjoy it much and it was all too overwhelming for me to make it happen. Anyway, by the time I started to feel a little better, I realized I wanted to work everyday because I feel better at work. This has always been the case for me. Somehow, at work, I am able to emerge from the confinement of depression. When my depression begins to invade my work space, as it did at one point this summer, I know I am in trouble. There was a point this summer when this happened. I cried several times at work, was unable to focus, became obsessed with something insignificant that I had to do at home, etc. That was a signal that I was in bad shape. Because, even though my depression often impacts my ability to get myself to work, once I am there, it usually gets checked at the door. If it comes into the building with me, that is a danger signal.
>
> I also was feeling concerned about the fact that a project I was working on was taking longer than it should, because of how hard it was for me to focus, and because I had gotten bogged down in too many details. And I was concerned about how I was perceived, as a new employee, because of my inconsistency and all of my "illnesses".
>
> I sensed I would be able to trust my supervisor, and at this point, continue to believe I was correct. She was extremely supportive and disclosed that her father has bipolar illness and that she knows what a struggle depression can be. I wanted her to know, I think, because I wanted support, and I hate lying. She told me she perceives me as conscientious, and that my inconsistent work schedule had not really been an issue.
>
> I hope my instinct about her trustworthiness is accurate, because I sense that in most cases, it is not really safe to disclose one's depressive illness to one's boss.
>
> I don't see my disclosure to her as license to be excused from my responsibilities. I still need to improve my ability to get to work on time and to limit my absences. In terms of the quality of my work, I am not worried because somehow I have always managed to do a good enough job despite depression related absences, etc.
>
> How have other people managed employment issues while struggling with depression?>>I recently went to a business to pick up a toner cartridge and in the receptionist area they had one of those boards with everyone's name and status, ie out til 3pm, etc. Next to one ladies name they put psychiatric leave! No secrets at that company!! Pretty strange. Phil
Posted by Roo on August 24, 1999, at 7:40:18
In reply to Re: Depression and Work, posted by Phil on August 24, 1999, at 7:18:48
The regional aspect is interesting too--someone
mentioned being from California and their work
environment was very open and accepting. I'm
live in NC (in a more liberal area of the south--
the durham, chapel hill, raleigh area) but nevertheless
the work environments I've been in have been really
conservative, homophobic, all that stuff. I definately
wouldn't trust anyone with personal disclosures about
depression. I don't know if I would anywhere though,
b/c I'm basically very private (grew up in those
mid western states!). I'm afraid the minute I lost
my temper or got emotional at work everyone would
be whispering "yeah, well you know she's got PROBLEMS..
she's on medication and everything", and I wouldn't
be allowed to just be a normal human being like
everyone else. Of course maybe I"M being the judgemental
one, and not giving the human race enough credit!
quite possible!
Posted by Malia on August 24, 1999, at 10:53:33
In reply to Re: Depression and Work--regional discussion, posted by Roo on August 24, 1999, at 7:40:18
Thanks for all the input and follow-up to the original discussion. It got me thinking too. Everyone has to use their own judgment when deciding who or even if they should tell about their mental condition. In my case, being open about it has worked for me for the most part, but
I certainly wouldn't expect everyone to do the same or have the same positive reaction that I have had. I occasionally get a few perplexed people, but as with anything you do in life, people will agree with you, disagree with you, understand or not have compassion for mental illness. For me, telling people that there was more to my problems than simply being moody gave me the freedom to start the path toward recovery from my condition. Also, my psychiatrist is unconventional. He told me about his own experiences with AD's even though that is not medical protocol, but I felt so much more "normal" after he shared it with me. Speaking for myself alone, I am proud to have faults, and not ashamed to say I need a little bit of help. I'm only human and so are all of us here, and perhaps we should not be so ashamed of our conditions.
Posted by Sofia on August 24, 1999, at 23:54:20
In reply to Thanks for the follow-ups..., posted by Malia on August 24, 1999, at 10:53:33
>Speaking for myself alone, I am proud to have faults, and not ashamed to say I need a little bit of help. I'm only human and so are all of us here, and perhaps we should not be so ashamed of our conditions.
Amen! Way interesting topic. You just hit the nail right on the head!! We are ALL experiencing the less-than-perfect human condition, with or without depression, and we ALL need a little bit of help. I guess it just depends on the individual whether they choose to attach stigma or not to depression. Please be warned, I am about to make en even more shocking disclosure.....read on at your own discretion.
I am a born-again Christian, and what I have experienced in my naivete of telling the "thems" is that: if an individual tends to be judgemental and self-righteous so much so that they cannot possibly tolerate human faults or flaws on ANY level, they are consequently very lonely and unhappy with themselves as well. I have encountered this such response, it is sad to say, within my church family, which means much more to me than my co-workers. It's nice to be able to choose the "more excellent way" and forgive the "thems" for not being perfect. I mean, when you think about it, you could argue that a perfect person by definition would no longer be human, but then how could the perfect possibly understand, or relate to, the flawed, unless the being were both human and perfect. I believe The Holy Bible is The Word of God. The Bible says that only one person has ever been both human and perfect: Yeshua Messiah (aka, The Savior Jesus Christ, The Son of God, The Lamb of God, The Bread of Life, The Resurrection, The Truth, The Way, The Life, etc). I no longer believe I need to apologize to anyone for being less than perfect. As a born-again Christian I believe that there's Good News and bad news. The bad news: the human condition (i.e., physical death and spiritual death) and the shame that goes with it, we inherited from Adam and Eve.
The Good News: For God so loved the world that He gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him, should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16
Posted by claudeah on August 26, 1999, at 21:43:41
In reply to Re: Depression and Work--regional discussion, posted by Roo on August 24, 1999, at 7:40:18
Hey, hey, hey....enough about the puritanical midwesterners. I grew up in Detroit, lived in OKC, OK, San Antonio and finally managed to land in Chicago in 1990. All the moves were for work. Anyway, I was diagnosed as bi-polar in 94 at 32 years old. And the only reason was because I was sick of moving---I knew everytime I moved or made a major life change I became manic, so when I became depressed I moved.
Oh, right, back to the topic---disclosure at work. I am blessed that I work for the Feds, so they kinda have to play by there on rules, but that is not why I disclosed my illness. For one thing I was greatful to find out what was wrong---going from an almost perfect appraisal to one that is really bad in 2 years because of productivity and I wanted to share that. Another is telling my co-workers, since I am single, is like creating my own system of checks and balances. They see how I am everyday and if something seems to be changing. Once a co-worker even called my doctor because I was not acting right.
I am not ashamed even to tell the contractors (I administer contracts) that I have to deal with everyday. I use them as another monitor as well. Also, by 'coming out' about my mental illness I hope to dispel any negative stereotypes people may have. Most folks are surprized that I have a mental illness.
I don't brag, don't use it as a crutch and I sure as heck am not about to be disabled by my disability!!!
Posted by MARK T. on August 27, 1999, at 12:16:22
In reply to Re: Depression and Work, posted by Racer on August 22, 1999, at 20:29:23
>I KNOW WHAT YOU MEAN ABOUT THE SHAME ATTACHED TO THE DISORDER. I TRY TO TELL PEOPLE THAT I DIDN'T ASK FOR THIS TO HAPPEN TO ME, IT JUST HAPPENED. PEOPLE MAKE OFF COLOR COMMENTS AND CALL ME PSYCHO AND THAT..I DO HOWEVER WISH THEY WOULD FEEL DEPRESSION SOMETIME SO THEY WOULD BE MORE UNDERSTANDING. BUT THATS LIFE I GUESS..I KNOW THERE ARE PEOPLE AT WORK WHO NEED HELP BUT ARE AFRAID TO ASK BECAUSE OF THE SHAME AND STIGMA ATTACHED TO THE DISORDER.
Posted by Tom on September 18, 1999, at 21:46:32
In reply to Re: Depression and Work, posted by MARK T. on August 27, 1999, at 12:16:22
> >I KNOW WHAT YOU MEAN ABOUT THE SHAME ATTACHED TO THE DISORDER. I TRY TO TELL PEOPLE THAT I DIDN'T ASK FOR THIS TO HAPPEN TO ME, IT JUST HAPPENED. PEOPLE MAKE OFF COLOR COMMENTS AND CALL ME PSYCHO AND THAT..I DO HOWEVER WISH THEY WOULD FEEL DEPRESSION SOMETIME SO THEY WOULD BE MORE UNDERSTANDING. BUT THATS LIFE I GUESS..I KNOW THERE ARE PEOPLE AT WORK WHO NEED HELP BUT ARE AFRAID TO ASK BECAUSE OF THE SHAME AND STIGMA ATTACHED TO THE DISORDER.
Great topic, thought it would be great if it came forward. I've told my boss about current illness. She empathized with me entirely (her mother is manic depressive, with numerous hospitalizations). I've told a few other people also, but I don't openly discuss it with everybody. Everyone has been great, and nobody really treats me different, but some days I wish I hadn't told anyone. I really have no reason to feel that way...I just do. I also have a close co worker who went through a major depressive episode in his life, and he's been extremely supportive. It helps to have someone on your side at work.
Posted by Bob on September 19, 1999, at 16:05:45
In reply to Re: Depression and Work, posted by Tom on September 18, 1999, at 21:46:32
I'm glad you brought it forward, Tom! I was going to start a new thread along the same lines ... but I'm really glad I joined this board AFTER the end of August -- I had a lot of venting to do right then.
The past six months, I've been coming to terms with my depression being something that I will have to manage all my life, with it being a neurological disorder and not some pattern of behavior I simply needed enough willpower to overcome. Tho that was deeply depressing for me, it did open up some different ways of thinking, similar to what a number of folks have mentioned--make no apologies, take no prisoners. The best defense is a good offense.
When I was on the faculty at Fordham University, I tried my best to hide my disorder as the pressure increased and my anxiety peaked. I would head into my office at 10 and shut the door behind me, play solitaire for a few hours, sneak out for lunch, sneak back in, play solitaire for a few more hours, then emerge to teach my evening classes. It felt like being in a constant state of panic, but I felt I had to do it, that getting in to the office instead of hiding at home was a victory in and of itself. All the same, there I was in the middle of a department filled with school and counseling psychology faculty, all of whom were warm and supportive and concerned about helping a junior faculty member succeed.
When I left there for work in a non-profit doing educational programming (training middle school teachers in science), I felt like I had spent two years in a lie. I had been in therapy for about a year by then, and had just started taking meds (my first trial on zoloft and my manic response to it). So, being a psychologist myself (research, not clinical) I felt I had a responsibility to come "out of the closet" (out of the padded room?) about my depression, my treatment, and whatever meds I was on.
I made a point of telling my new boss, and keeping her informed of any change in medication. We have a small department -- only one other permanent employee and two other positions which should be permanent, but they've been a revolving door for people on the way from one job to another. For them, I've always brought it up rather matter-of-factly whenever it was warranted.
A year ago August is when things began to fall apart between me and my boss. I was just starting to feel the effects of a bad drug interaction. At the time, we were looking at submitting a grant proposal to work in some schools and expand the training we do. Two of the three school districts we were working with bailed at the last minute, and in my panic-riddled state I couldn't see a way to rewrite the grant for this circumstance, so it didn't get submitted. A few months later, after my boss returns from maternity leave, the feces begins to hit the fan. I get this "informal" letter from her describing my "productivity problems" ... including several that were pure fabrications (and I had the means of demonstrating they were so).
I work relationship continued to slowly deteriorate until this past June -- time for my annual progress revue. Of course, we had some clear differences in certain areas. What was also clear, from her written comments, was that she had never considered my disorder as a possible explanation for any of the problems she had seen. Anyway, knowing a slight bit about the Americans with Disabilities Act (ok, dj? ;^), I basically said "You had a biological condition last summer (pregnancy) for which our company made reasonable accommodations. I have a biological condition that at times influences my job performance -- I want reasonable accommodations made as well." We agreed that since neither of us new what these should be, that we'd work on suggestions. For starters, she suggested I should close my office door when my sudden attacks of drowsiness (side effect from my meds) comes on so I can take a short break. I suggested that I keep a list of tasks on my office white board and the she come in daily to check it -- to make sure we agree on what our priorities were and that I was able to stay focused.
Two weeks later, on her last day in the office prior to a month on vacation, she drops a letter in my lap describing some new supplemental evaluation process that would be implemented this fall for me, with a threat in there that I could loose my job.
She made a big mistake taking that month off. It gave me a ton of time to get informed and get organized. I also tend to stutter and stammer when I'm as angry as I was then, so turning that into a rather cold, hard anger also has helped.
Suffice to say, (1) she conducted her original evaluation improperly as our company has a standards document for this purpose, and she did not follow it, (2) no provision is company policy is made for this additional evalution, (3) her comments in my evaluation rarely speak of observable behaviors but instead mention character judgments (she describes in the end as being "essentially unreliable"), (4) I have better than 40 teachers, school administrators, and college faculty who would quickly contradict her assessment of my performance, (5) she has even admitted that our project, under my management, is doing much better than a year ago.
The list goes on ... and I *have* been keeping good notes.
The National Alliance for the Mentally Ill has an excellent description of the ADA and what support it provides. Title 1 of the ADA deals with workplace issues. Areas in which the ADA protects folks like us include in promotion and pay raise consideration. My boss has blown it big time on both these issues, and now I'm just jumping through all the hoops necessary to take legal action.
One critical aspect of claiming proctection under the ADA is that YOU MUST INFORM your employer and take whatever reasonable steps you can to avoid litigation. Finding that out just last month, I am glad I came out about my disorder, even if my boss is too prejudiced to acknowledge it. She has known the full story since day 1. Trying to work things out with her was step 2. Step 3 was working through my company's human resource director. She's siding with the company. So, I'm preparing my next step -- a rebuttal of the original evaluation with an addendum on how company policy has been trashed in this process. If the HR director refuses to take action, I take it to the CEO (thank goodness it's a small non-profit!). If the CEO refuses to resolve the issue to my satisfaction, then I file a complaint with the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission, the folks responsible for monitoring workplace discrimination. If they find merit in my complaint, they'll either take up the case themselves or issue me a "right to sue" letter.
My non-profit is a very public company dealing with issues of scientific, technological and medical advocacy. This issue getting public would be a huge black eye for them. It would also jeopardize millions of dollars in state and federal funding they receive, as they must maintain their EEOC compliance to keep getting the funds.
So wish me luck...and thanks for letting me vent. I don't know if anyone else out there has had to deal with explicit, overt workplace discrimination, but I'm finding out quite a bit about myself through the process. There's one aspect my GP pointed out to me that really perked me up and I'd like for all of us to be able to say:
I refuse to be victimized by anyone for who I am.
Oh, for those worried about switching meds ... that's how my GP got involved. SSRIs mess with my cholesterol so bad, he wants me off of them. Unfortunately, I don't have the freedom to experiment. Even dropping my dosage on Zoloft from 200mg/day to 150 was enough to send me sliding pretty bad. In the mean time, my cholesterol was over 280 and my triglycerides off the scale. My GP put me on Lipitor (yet another drug for which my co-pays are going to support their TV ad campaign), and I appear to be responding well to it (one month on it and a drop of 40 points). So, the way I see it, my boss' bigotry is threatening my physical health as well.
I grabbed a number of helpful docs from the NAMI site and printed them out for my boss and my HR director. They did help a bit with my boss, which means they may work even better with someone with a more open mind. I hope NAMI doesn't mind ... I have them saved as PDFs and I'll put them up on my website for interested parties to view/download/print. Go to http://idt.net/~raboyle/babble/ to view them -- they should be up by midnight Sunday.
Cheers,
Bob
Posted by dj on September 21, 1999, at 17:21:36
In reply to The best defense ..., posted by Bob on September 19, 1999, at 16:05:45
Bob,
Though depression has neurological impacts what brings you to the conclusion that it is purely a neurological disorder? Richard O'Connor the author of "Undoing Depression" runs a mental health unit, has battled depression himself and after reviewing much of the literature believes it to be a combo. of nature & nurture the way I read him. He argues depression is partially a result of learned ways of thinging, doing & relating -- though he doesn't discount the value of anit-depressants...
Julian Simon was a well known economist who wrote a book on depression which I cited in the book thread below and quoted a bit from..he claims to have cured himself of a severe long tern depression by using a cognitve approach... One of his arguements is that we compare and find ourselves wanting which would match up with some of the work on perefectionism that is being done at the Universtity of British Columbia by Bob Hewitt and others elsewhere.
I identify with your description of how your anxiety and depression played itself out at work as I have reacted similarly in various circumstances and still may. However part of me also recognizes how I neglect msyelf, how I ruminate over petty details, how I isolate myself from others, how I spend too much time on-line when it's gorgeous outside &/or have other things that may be more important to do...etc. I struggle with my role and response-ability and would like to thing that I can somehow overcome these morose tendencies as Julian Simons claims to have donw with his, without having to rely solely on some chemical cocktail.
For instance I spent the past few days away visiting and feel much better for taking some time to go away to enjoy others company and to do some deep sharing, in person with new & old friends as well as some deep massage and just having fun. Something shifted as a result of that -- whether that shift will last I don't know but I believe that if I work at it it things may continue to shift...& I won't feel like jumping off the ferry as I did on the way over...
Then again maybe it's just the sunshine we are having ; ), but as I was feeling depressed despite it before I don't think that's it...
BTW, I am curious whether you did seek any help from your supportive co-faculty when at Fordham?
Sante!
DJ
>
> The past six months, I've been coming to terms with my depression being something that I will have to manage all my life, with it being a neurological disorder and not some pattern of behavior I simply needed enough willpower to overcome. Tho that was deeply depressing for me, it did open up some different ways of thinking, similar to what a number of folks have mentioned--make no apologies, take no prisoners. The best defense is a good offense.
>
> When I was on the faculty at Fordham University, I tried my best to hide my disorder as the pressure increased and my anxiety peaked. I would head into my office at 10 and shut the door behind me, play solitaire for a few hours, sneak out for lunch, sneak back in, play solitaire for a few more hours, then emerge to teach my evening classes. It felt like being in a constant state of panic, but I felt I had to do it, that getting in to the office instead of hiding at home was a victory in and of itself. All the same, there I was in the middle of a department filled with school and counseling psychology faculty, all of whom were warm and supportive and concerned about helping a junior faculty member succeed.
>
Posted by Bob on September 21, 1999, at 19:11:16
In reply to Re: The best defense ...chicken & egg???, posted by dj on September 21, 1999, at 17:21:36
I guess that I did sound kinda heavy on that, didn't I?
No, I agree on the nature/nurture thing here -- I see nature's role as providing potentials and nuture's role as developing, interweaving, stifling, etc. those potentials. What I did mean to say is that the way I was raised, I was convinced that I should just be able to "tough it out" -- that it was all a defect in character and it would take a mending of that character by a strong will in order for me to be happy again. While my training in science in general and psychology in particular had opened for me the possibility that conditions like depression could have something to do with neurological disorders, it never meant anything to me personally ... I had never taken that possibility to heart for my own condition. That has only started to sink in during the last 6-8 months or so.
As for my colleagues at Fordham -- I've had a lifetime of experience learning how to hide my illness from others, even from myself. It gets back to that facade we wear (was that Janet who was talking about it?). I obviously wasn't happy, but everyone assumed it was the usual junior faculty trauma ... in that respect, my colleagues at Fordham were wonderfully supportive. They all valued me as a colleague; they tried their best and offered what support they could, but I wasn't taking any of it. My problems really had little to do with academic life, tho it was a facade that maintained itself and required no work from me. All the same, if I weren't depressed, academe still wouldn't be for me. Tenure review boards tend to punish junior faculty for valuing the things I do, like fieldwork and teaching.
Cheers,
Bob[ps. the egg came first. The first chicken was a mutation of some proto-chicken or a cross between different proto-chickens. Who knows? It may not just be chickens ... within us all may lie the genes of the proto-chicken....;^]
Posted by acm on September 27, 1999, at 15:40:12
In reply to Depression and Work, posted by yardena on August 22, 1999, at 20:02:38
I was diagnosed with major depression (single episode, moderate) in January 1998. I told my boss because I knew there was no way to hide it -- it affected the very fiber of my being. Her mother is bipolar, so she had an understanding early on, and she's since confided to me that she's been down my path also.
I'm glad I told her, because my marriage broke up in June 98 and my mother died in July 98. I'd just started therapy that winter and by spring had finally found an AD that I could tolerate. I don't have siblings or children. With no husband and no mom (my dad and I don't get along), all I had left were a few close friends and my work, which I dove into. It was really really hard because I couldn't concentrate, so I spend an inordinate amount of time getting the work done, but I got it done. I am extremely lucky to have the boss I have. She's been very supportive. I asked her upfront to tell me if my work was slipping in any way because I wanted to know and fix it right away. She was always reassuring that my work was good. It's been a year since that horrible summer, and I'm still working on the depression. In the spring of this year, I went through a bad spell. I knew I wasn't feeling right, but my boss confirmed it when she asked me how I was one day. I could tell she was concerned. Her feedback prompted me to talk with my doctor. He added another AD (Wellbutrin to the existing Remeron) and things have gotten better.
If I didn't have such an understanding boss, I probably wouldn't be so open. However, if asked, I'd probably admit my depression. I don't see how I could hide it. I haven't been able to thus far -- at least to people who know me.
Posted by Bob on September 27, 1999, at 16:59:28
In reply to Re: Depression and Work, posted by acm on September 27, 1999, at 15:40:12
Geez, that really sucks. I don't think there are any better words for your June-July of 98. My best friend went through just about the very same thing, and that's about all she could say about it.
I'm glad to hear your boss is so understanding. I thought mine was, but she just wasn't getting it. She saw me as bright and capable, and so interpreted any drop in productivity to me being a slacker -- all this despite the fact that I was keeping her filled in about my depression and treatment. I don't know if just anyone would understand -- but since I got some documentation from NAMI and re-educated her, my boss has been not just easier to live with, but helpful as well.
Good to hear you've found a cocktail that's working.
Cheers,
Bob
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