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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by Tamar on March 29, 2005, at 16:10:51
In reply to Re: tis been awhile, posted by pinkeye on March 28, 2005, at 13:58:58
> I don't necessarily agree with the partner knowing everything. If my husband ends up having an affair, I would like if he keeps it to himself rather than come and tell me (unless of course if it is a long standing one and he wants to dissolve the marriage. I really wouldn't want to know if he has a one night stand somewhere - and expecting him to have taken care w.r.t STD s)
I can relate to this. I definitely subscribe to the idea that what I don't know won't hurt me. If my husband had sex with someone else I would expect him never to tell me! And I hope that no one else would tell me either. But if it happened, and I found out about it, I don't think it would feel like the end of the world. Sexuality fidelity isn't the most important thing to me; I would be much more distressed if my husband became an alcoholic or started gambling excessively than if he had sex with another woman.
I think that's part of the ethical difficulty: there's a social expectation that married people will not have sex outside their marriage. There's a general belief that one spouse's adultery inevitably hurts the other spouse. If married people have open relationships they're openly flouting social expectations, but they can be open about it. The grey area is when married people don't actively encourage their partners to be unfaithful, but at the same time don't really want to know.
I find it quite interesting that all kinds of sexual behaviour that used to be considered unacceptable is now permitted, with certain restrictions. My grandmother would have had plenty to say about same sex couples, sex before marriage, consensual sex between adult brother-and-sister couples, and so on; pairings that seem less remarkable now. But fidelity within those relationships is still considered to be the ideal. I wonder why that aspect of sexuality is so important still.
Nevertheless, I agree with Dinah that integrity is very sexy!
Posted by Dinah on March 29, 2005, at 20:29:01
In reply to Re: tis been awhile, posted by Tamar on March 29, 2005, at 16:10:51
Perhaps because one is morality, and the other ethics?
And how do you know who would be genuinely hurt and who would rather not know if you don't talk about it openly? Is it acceptable to risk hurting those who would be hurt because some might not be? Since the general expectation is that entering a committed relationship means entering a committed relationship, how would a spouse know otherwise if they didn't discuss it? How would the outside party know? And how can anyone decide to risk hurting someone without knowing?
I find it interesting that people who think it's acceptable would also rather not know. While there are things that I'd rather not know in my marriage, it's because I know that they aren't acceptable so I can't risk finding them out. I find it hard to wrap my mind around thinking something is ok, but not wanting to know about it.
Especially something like this, where it so often does become known. And again, there's that whole penis/vagina thing. I want to know where that's been before it comes in intimate contact with me.
But apparently that's just me - at least here. There seems to be lots of support for infidelity on the board. :)
Posted by Gabbi-x-2 on March 29, 2005, at 21:02:21
In reply to Re: tis been awhile, posted by Dinah on March 29, 2005, at 20:29:01
> But apparently that's just me - at least here. There seems to be lots of support for infidelity on the board. :)
No, it's not just you! I would expect fidelity from a partner, for many reasons that I won't get into (none are religious, or societally influenced, that I know of ) I would also never become sexually involved with someone who I knew had made a committment to someone else.
Posted by 10derHeart on March 29, 2005, at 22:30:33
In reply to Re: tis been awhile, posted by Dinah on March 29, 2005, at 20:29:01
>>But apparently that's just me - at least here. There seems to be lots of support for infidelity on the board. :)<<
Not necessarily so at all. Believe me. But I can't/won't elaborate. Maybe some day, when I've matured enough to handle writing on this topic. Not today.
Perhaps I'm a coward. So be it.
Posted by Dinah on March 30, 2005, at 10:41:59
In reply to Re: tis been awhile » Dinah, posted by 10derHeart on March 29, 2005, at 22:30:33
One thing I enjoy about this board is that I get to know and care about people who have different world-views than I have. And I can try to understand them. I don't always succeed, but I can try. :)
But sometimes I find that board benefit to be so abundant that I feel a bit out of place. I'm glad to feel that I'm not a lone strange bird who wandered into the exotic habitat of Babbleland.
Posted by pinkeye on March 30, 2005, at 13:18:31
In reply to Gabbi and » 10derHeart, posted by Dinah on March 30, 2005, at 10:41:59
I also value integrity very highly. But just that, sometimes life and wellness should come above integrity. And if it means to have an affair to make some sense out of your life once in your lifetime, it is not the end of the world. But I wouldn't support affairs per se. Except in extreme cases.
Posted by Dinah on March 30, 2005, at 14:07:13
In reply to Re: Gabbi and » Dinah, posted by pinkeye on March 30, 2005, at 13:18:31
Well, if my husband were captured by Amazon spacewomen, and they held their ray guns to his head and said that if he didn't have sex with them... Oh wait, that's not an affair. (Sounds more like a letter to Playboy. :) )
Other than that, can we just agree to disagree?
Posted by pinkeye on March 30, 2005, at 14:13:17
In reply to Re: » pinkeye, posted by Dinah on March 30, 2005, at 14:07:13
Sure :-).. anyway, it is too hard a topic to try to convince in message boards. I am sure if we meet in IRL, I can make you see my point.
Posted by Tamar on March 30, 2005, at 16:02:03
In reply to Re: tis been awhile, posted by Dinah on March 29, 2005, at 20:29:01
> I find it interesting that people who think it's acceptable would also rather not know. While there are things that I'd rather not know in my marriage, it's because I know that they aren't acceptable so I can't risk finding them out. I find it hard to wrap my mind around thinking something is ok, but not wanting to know about it.
Well, I'm in the 'rather not know' camp but I'm not entirely comfortable in the 'think it's acceptable' camp. I don't think I could accept my husband's infidelity very easily, but I think it would be something I could forgive if I found out about it. And I could forgive it much more easily than some other things.
If I found out my husband had been unfaithful, my main concern would be whether he was going to leave me. As long as he had no plans to leave me, I could overlook it. I just don't think I would feel terribly hurt. Maybe a little, but not too much, as long as it was no real threat to my marriage. To be honest, I'd be more annoyed if he took up golf than if he had a brief affair (which doesn't make an affair acceptable; just less unacceptable than golfing, if that makes sense). But I think I'm probably very weird about this.
> Especially something like this, where it so often does become known. And again, there's that whole penis/vagina thing. I want to know where that's been before it comes in intimate contact with me.
That raises a question I find interesting. At what point does sex start? Is it specifically a penis/vagina thing? Would it still be infidelity if there were no genital contact? I know there's a whole debate about online 'affairs', which interests me quite a bit. Any views?
> But apparently that's just me - at least here. There seems to be lots of support for infidelity on the board. :)
I don't think you're on your own - I don't support infidelity either, in the sense that I wouldn't want to promote it. A friend of mine recently had an affair that led to the breakup of her marriage, and while I think her new partner is a better match for her, I found it quite difficult to support her decision to end her marriage. Nevertheless, I do find the whole discourse extremely interesting.
Posted by Gabbi-x-2 on March 30, 2005, at 16:10:38
In reply to Re: » pinkeye, posted by Dinah on March 30, 2005, at 14:07:13
> Well, if my husband were captured by Amazon spacewomen, and they held their ray guns to his head and said that if he didn't have sex with them... Oh wait, that's not an affair. (Sounds more like a letter to Playboy. :) )
>
LOL!
Posted by Dinah on March 30, 2005, at 17:28:01
In reply to Re:Pinkeye » Dinah, posted by Gabbi-x-2 on March 30, 2005, at 16:10:38
I'm toying with the idea of sharing that exemption with him. Just in case he hasn't bought a Playgirl lately. :)
Such a thoughtful wife I am.
Posted by Dinah on March 30, 2005, at 17:32:52
In reply to Re: tis been awhile » Dinah, posted by Tamar on March 30, 2005, at 16:02:03
I sometimes worry that my emotional attachment to my therapist is an affair of sorts. I've talked about it with my husband. Since he's aware that my feelings toward my therapist are maternal, and since he's really really happy I have someone who isn't him to help me deal with my craziness, he's given me affirmative permission to attach as much as I like to him.
I'd feel not good about it if I had to keep it a secret.
(And my husband always thought my therapist was more attractive than I ever thought he was. Ummm... you know, as a source of interest for me, not my husband. But he felt better when he realized that I was being truthful when I said that that physical type never appealed. Ummm... to me of course. I imagine it appeals to his wife. I hope so.)
Posted by Spoc on March 31, 2005, at 2:25:45
In reply to Re: tis been awhile » Tamar, posted by Dinah on March 30, 2005, at 17:32:52
Well you know I'm with ya. ;^)
Posted by Dinah on March 31, 2005, at 17:21:58
In reply to Re: tis been awhile » Dinah, posted by Spoc on March 31, 2005, at 2:25:45
Why do I get the feeling that I'm encouraging someone to fall off the wagon? grin.
I'm glad to see you posting again.
Posted by Tamar on March 31, 2005, at 18:09:45
In reply to Re: tis been awhile » Tamar, posted by Dinah on March 30, 2005, at 17:32:52
Yeah, I think the emotional attachment thing can feel like an affair. And in my case, the attachment was not maternal at all. I had a very predictable erotic thing going on! I rationalise it by telling myself the nature of the transference has a lot to do with particular things I was talking about in therapy, and so it was inevitably going to be an erotic thing, but it's still uncomfortable, even after termination.
I don't exactly keep it a secret; I just don't talk about it to my husband and he doesn't ask, but I'm pretty sure he knows. He just doesn't want to hear about it. Much like an affair, really! But definitely not an actual affair. I wouldn't want a relationship with my T in real life. Of course, that was the subject of the original post that started this whole thing...
Posted by pinkeye on March 31, 2005, at 18:32:54
In reply to Re: tis been awhile » Dinah, posted by Tamar on March 31, 2005, at 18:09:45
Yeah, I can relate to that. The emotional attachment and fantasies did feel like an affair. And I couldn't forgive myself for a long time. But then I ended up forgiving myself and even accepting that it is normal.
My husband knows too - but not in a direct way, but I am pretty sure he knows. And nowadays he seems to understand it also. But we don't talk about it.. but I have been trying to educate him whenver possible of the attachment people tend to feel towards their therapists, and I think he realizes that was what I wanted.
Posted by Spoc on March 31, 2005, at 18:33:42
In reply to :) » Spoc, posted by Dinah on March 31, 2005, at 17:21:58
> Why do I get the feeling that I'm encouraging someone to fall off the wagon? grin.
Hee hee, but look how improved I am (yeah right!). I could have re-wrote the tome I sent you on it last week, or pasted it here, but decided not to as that kind of thing is extremely unlikely to change anyone's stance or bring up factors others don't already know. (And since few here know ME period, I assume they could have gotten through their lives without knowing what spoc thinks! HI to all peop who don't know spoc, btw! ;). NONE of which would stop me from packing a suitcase and moving onto the thread anyway, of course, much to my own increased life behindedness! ;-)
> I'm glad to see you posting again.
Thanks man! Still telling myself that as soon as any responses die out to threads I'm already on, I'm outta here. But it's not like it's within my own CONTROL or anything! ;-)
Posted by Spoc on March 31, 2005, at 18:40:51
In reply to Re: :) » Dinah, posted by Spoc on March 31, 2005, at 18:33:42
Posted by Dinah on March 31, 2005, at 20:27:36
In reply to Re:Make that 'rewritten.' U know perfectionists ;) (nm), posted by Spoc on March 31, 2005, at 18:40:51
Posted by sunny10 on April 1, 2005, at 9:17:47
In reply to Re: :) » Dinah, posted by Spoc on March 31, 2005, at 18:33:42
I may not know you, Spoc, but it is always good to hear the opinions of others... it helps to expand my consciousness to remember that my point of view isn't the only one!!
I try to remind myself of two things everyday;
1) my problem may not seem like a problem to someone else- they may actually view it as an opportunity.
2) the meaning behind the Serenity Prayer. I do not go to a house of worship, but this prayer happens to reflect decision-making as it really is, so I adopted it...So I personally appreciate the fact that you came on to post and showed me Spoc's point of view.
Thanks!
-sunny10
Posted by Spoc on April 1, 2005, at 10:44:25
In reply to Re: :), posted by sunny10 on April 1, 2005, at 9:17:47
...and thank YOU, Sunny, and happy to meet you! You're right, what you said really is the way things should be as far as sharing viewpoints. In my case, I was mostly just trying to talk myself out of yet another dissertation, since as you may have gathered I've had a problem with spending too much time here, and on the 'net period, in the past! (Not to imply it's "cured" now!)
Thanks for welcoming my opinion. I guess in the interests of expediency, I may as well just say "What Dinah said." I think many previous life experiences go into shaping how a person ends up feeling about this subject, it probably isn't a conscious choice to feel one way or the other. And it's hard to change our own opinions, so we usually don't unless something arises to make us feel there is a compelling reason or greater benefit to doing so.
Myself, I am kind of "ammoral" about several things, that would surprise some people and that I don't feel too bad about... I guess because I leave it at thinking there is no one specific person or handful of specific people who stand to be effected. (And I have no kids and don't have much family.) But actually I guess those things could be said to effect humanity at large (i.e., environmental and various other causes), so who would I be to talk really! Although I guess we don't have to be fully "self-actualized" before we can hold and express opinions on the things we *do* have a position on.
See? I ended up babbling anyway! ;-)
Posted by sunny10 on April 1, 2005, at 11:11:12
In reply to Re: :) » sunny10, posted by Spoc on April 1, 2005, at 10:44:25
don't we all??? That's why it's called the Babble board!
I believe everyone has the right to an opinion, whether it is socially acceptable or not. Of course, you can't ACT on your beliefs if it would mean breaking LAWS, but thinking is still free!
For instance, how can the "normal family" consist of "2.5 children"? How many kids do you know running around split in half??? Therefore, what is the societal norm that you are holding yourself up against?!? Just 'cause you don't have "2.5" children??? And just who the heck does??? It's impossible!
So feel free to have your opinion, and post it here- just like the rest of us. And, yes, absolutely my own opinions change frequently based on what I learn.
The only people I cannot put up with are those who "know they are always right"... this also is impossible, and to listen to them is a waste of my time...
Posted by Spoc on April 1, 2005, at 11:42:31
In reply to Re: :) » Spoc, posted by sunny10 on April 1, 2005, at 11:11:12
Right you are.
(Run-on sentences warning!)
What is probably really being smoked out here is my perception that for some reason, when I weigh in on a controversial matter -- in what I think is the same mature and noninflammatory fashion that others are doing fine with there -- the reception is nonetheless and too often... chilly or nonexistent.
But in my never-ending commitment to looking at the big picture and trying to more often stick with logic than emotion/feelings, I do try to leave this at believing, even if I can't really see it, that this perception is due to some kind of selective attention on my part.
Posted by sunny10 on April 1, 2005, at 12:26:35
In reply to Re: :) » sunny10, posted by Spoc on April 1, 2005, at 11:42:31
from the queen on run-on-sentences... here goes;
You've just perfectly depicted the meaning of the word "perception".
(My thoughts ramble often thus the run-on-sentences.)
Posted by Spoc on April 1, 2005, at 12:44:15
In reply to Re: :), posted by sunny10 on April 1, 2005, at 12:26:35
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