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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 41. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by girlnterrupted78 on September 7, 2007, at 8:57:43
Sorry if this is long..
I am extremely frustrated, annoyed and unhappy with my current T. She's a woman--probably in her mid-forties. I'm a woman in my late twenties. I've been seeing this T for 3-4 months; we see each other once a week for 45-minute sessions.
The reason I feel frustrated is that, so far, after almost 4 months, I don't feel we have begun any actual therapy. And the reason for this is nothing other than my T and her behavior, which I simply find impossible to deal with.
The first few weeks I simply narrated my entire childhood to my T; the problems and traumas of my upbringing, and how I thought I had developed depression.
However, once I was done giving her my background, we became stuck. Stuck in a situation where I had nothing else to say to my T, and where I actually did not even want to continue to talk to her. She did realize this, and so this is where the bigger problems began.
First, one of the reasons we became stuck is that I was no longer the sole 'talker' and my T was absolutely reluctant to talk. Second, I began to realize that my T's insecurity and anger issues were getting in the way of my building a sense of trust, comfort, and a healthy relationship with her.
I will obviously give my side of the story in here, but the facts are the facts, and I found that certain behaviors she displayed were simply unacceptable, which made me lose respect for her and be unwilling to continue to talk.
First of all, my T seems very unwilling to communicate openly. She speaks as little as possible, and she does not like to give feedback. She also doesn't like to begin the sessions. She will say "hello, how are you?" and then she will proceed to sit in her chair and stare at me, or smile, always with a look on her face that clearly says "I am waiting for YOU to begin the session. It is NOT my responsibility."
These behaviors infuriated me, because I do not feel it is *my* responsibility either, and I don't even know how to begin a session. I believe it is her responsibility, and I also believe she should be giving me some kind of feedback. Otherwise, what on earth am I paying for? If she's barely talking and just making irrelevant comments about my life, such as "that was a difficult childhood", or "yes, your father was mean." Those things are just repeating what I had just said. How is that therapeutic? Fine. That was the least of the problems with this T. The bigger problems were really not mine, but her own issues, which she brought into the therapy room, and which shortly, began to wreck havoc.
As far as I am concerned, a therapist should act as a SECURE BASE who will listen to the patient's mental health problems and help explore the reasons that are causing the emotional distress--in order to improve the patient's condition. However, I don't feel this T is anything close to a "secure base." In fact, I consider her very insecure, and far from a base.
In the initial process of building a relationship with my T, she displayed a number of behaviors that completely turned me off from building trust in her. I simply did not feel any respect for her, and when I don't feel respect for someone, I tend to despise them.
In several occasions, while I was talking about the specific issues in my life that caused me distress, T would say nothing. I felt a bit uncomfortable about her silence, so I would try to get her engaged in the conversation by turning a question around to see what her response was. T would be CLEARLY annoyed at my attempts to engage her; her voice and body language would show clear discomfort and annoyance, yet she would never be open enough to discuss the reason. I was puzzled and uncomfortable, wondering: What did I do wrong?
My T's sudden displays of hidden/secret anger and annoyance, along with her reluctance to be open about what was bothering her, began to have an impact in me. As a patient, I began to feel annoyed myself; I felt disrespected, and I did not build any trust in my T.
Regardless, at some point I asked my T why was she annoyed? I felt that open communication was essential in therapy and expected my T to think the same. Yet, her response was "I am NOT annoyed." I was shocked, as it was obvious that she was. I insisted, and said it was very clear to me, that in more than one occasion, she had been annoyed during our session, and that I was interested in knowing why.
She seemed frustrated with my question, and finally responded with another question: "What does it matter if I am annoyed? What is the significance of knowing whether I am annoyed?" At this point I could not believe my ears. Not only was my T annoyed, but she was denying it, and then she was asking me why would it matter if she were? I mean, how could it not matter? It is my therapy!! It makes me uncomfortable. Was my T suggesting that her behavior during my therapy has no bearing on me as a patient? YES, that's what she was implying! And of course, I fully disagreed. Her behavior had a huge impact on me, as it was her behavior what was making me reluctant to trust her. Her lack of honesty and her bringing her personal problems into my therapy made me lose respect for her, and this made it almost impossible to have a healthy relationship with her. I felt this was not right, and if she is angry, she should say so and openly explain why.
My view of therapy is that it is an open space where both, therapist and patient, need to be open and honest. So, it was very important for me as a patient to know why T was annoyed, because her behavior was beginning to affect me and to make me so incredibly uncomfortable that I began to feel completely reluctant to continue to speak to her. How could I talk openly and intimately to someone who is hiding anger from me right in my face, even though that anger was evident?
When we reached a point where we realized things were going nowhere because I did not trust her or felt like continuing to speak to her, I decided to address the issue, because of course, she would not:
Our relationship was simply not working out. I told her that I felt very uncomfortable. I told her I could not trust someone who was not being honest with me. I told her I felt she was not being honest about certain things in therapy (the fact that she was annoyed during our sessions, while she was also denying it.)
Her only response to this is that she felt it was "hostile" of me to call her "dishonest." So what did she want then, if I was being honest about what was NOT working out for me? What kind of message was she sending by saying this? Did she mean to say I should keep things to myself to appear friendly to her? While pushing the real problems under the rug? And continue to pretend that everything was fine, when it clearly wasn't? What kind of therapist is this? What is she telling me by saying that my honesty and my openness in therapy were nothing but hostility? I mean, I was merely bringing up the REASON why things were not working out, for god's sake. She'd rather have me continue to waste my therapy away than be honest and try to address the problems that were interfering with my therapy? This made me even more uncomfortable and I began to lose more and more respect for her.
After this, I used 3 sessions in a row to be brutally honest. I told her I felt uncomfortable, didn't trust her, did not understand why she would not discuss things openly. At some point, after I pushed, being very straight forward and assertive, she admitted that she had, in fact, felt uneasy when I claimed she had been annoyed. She said she felt hostility on my part. I don't believe I was being hostile; I simply requested her opinion in a matter of my life where I was desperately confused and needed someone else's point of view. My attempt to get her to talk was a way for me to engage her. However, it was interpreted by her as hostility, because (and this is my opinion) she appears like a very insecure person who cannot give her opinion on anything.
Later she finally explained that "she did not ever provide opinions during therapy—her style was simply to guide." FINE!! Why then, I thought, didn't she SAY SO earlier, or at the moment of the incident, instead of acting annoyed and hiding it for so long? Why did it take ME so long to get HER to talk about her therapy method? Was I the therapist here? Or the patient? Isn't the therapist's responsibility to explain to the patient how their method works? At least I'd think it's a better approach to be open about that, than to show silent anger or a negative attitude with an utter reluctance to openly speak about it—leaving the patient dumbfounded and, in my case, disgusted at such lack of honesty in the therapeutic atmosphere. This had a negative impact on me as a patient.
But yet, it seems like the T's feelings and issues were above her patient's, so she won't be open or honest. This, in an attempt to protect herself, her pride, her anger and her issues.
To be continued…
Sorry about the length, if anyone made it to the end, any input would be GREATLY appreciated.
Thanks a lot
GI78
Posted by Dinah on September 7, 2007, at 9:36:37
In reply to Frustrated and unhappy with T, posted by girlnterrupted78 on September 7, 2007, at 8:57:43
You've given her a decent try, and she's not someone you feel you can work productively with. Perhaps it's time to cut your losses and find a therapist who suits you better.
It doesn't matter so much who is right and who is wrong. Different therapists suit different clients. Trying on therapists is a bit like dating. You may need to try a few before you find a good match.
Now that you know your preferences in therapy, you'll have a good base to know what you're looking for in the future. You want someone who is more directive than your current therapist? Who is willing to give you honest feedback? There are a heck of a lot of therapists like that out there. If you were near me, I'd give you biofeedback guy's name.
I can see why you're upset. It's hard to invest significant time and resources in something you don't find helpful. And it's not always easy to tell at first which therapist will be helpful in the long run.
Are you familiar with CBT? It's definitely results oriented. Perhaps you'd find it useful. There are other styles of therapy that also stress active intervention on the part of the therapist.
Posted by RealMe on September 7, 2007, at 10:51:54
In reply to Re: Frustrated and unhappy with T » girlnterrupted78, posted by Dinah on September 7, 2007, at 9:36:37
I would agree with Dinah re a different type of therapist. My therapist is actually somewhat like what you describe. It is my reponsibility to start the session, but if I really look distraugt and am silent, he will ask what is going on with me, what is going through my mind.
He also doesn't say a lot, but when he does, it is fairly powerful--a comment on what I have said or talked about perhaps. I also know from today that he will ultimately do less and less of explaining and tying things to gether for me--only some now as I would become overwhelmed otherwise, and so his comments help contain me. I like this style, but like Dinah said, it is not for everyone. Times are I think he is angry or bored or something, and it is me projecting my stuff onto him like 99.999% of the time.
So yes, different strokes for different folks.
RealMe
(OzLand)
Posted by Racer on September 7, 2007, at 12:11:53
In reply to Frustrated and unhappy with T, posted by girlnterrupted78 on September 7, 2007, at 8:57:43
First of all, I agree with Dinah and RealMe, that this sounds as though maybe a therapist who practices a different style might be a better fit for you right now. Sometimes, the chemistry just isn't quite right, and the therapy relationship is like a marriage -- sometimes we just fit.
There were a few things that I saw, though, that kinda made me wonder if you might be able to get something out of this relationship. Now might not be the time, but I'm going to throw these thoughts out there anyway. It's only meant as observation, and again -- I think Dinah and RealMe are right about the fit, at least right now.
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> Second, I began to realize that my T's insecurity and anger issues were getting in the way of my building a sense of trust, comfort, and a healthy relationship with her.From my reading of your post, I didn't get "insecurity and anger," so much as one particular style of doing therapy. I wonder if something might be going on inside you that might be worth exploring more, that you see it this way.
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> I simply did not feel any respect for her, and when I don't feel respect for someone, I tend to despise them.Again, this sounds like something it might be worth exploring more. I mean that as a general statement, by the way. I saw a therapist once who was so abysmally bad, I had a hard time believing she had any redeeming human characteristics whatsoever. Even now, looking back, while I have a more charitable view of her based on the situation -- naw, on second thought, I don't really have a more charitable view. Never mind...
What I thought of, though, is that the view you described sounds rather absolute to me. It might be worth exploring that issue. (Of course, it might also be worth exploring the issue with another therapist...)
I started to write some more observations to other parts of your post, but honestly? I think my basic idea is probably clear enough, and can be stated in two pretty succinct sentences -- and it's that amazing coming from me? lol
1. It may be that there are issues you could explore regarding your reactions to this therapist.
2. It doesn't sound as though this therapist is the right one for you right now.
I hope this helps, and I hope you find a good match for you in a therapist.
Posted by Poet on September 7, 2007, at 13:47:38
In reply to Frustrated and unhappy with T, posted by girlnterrupted78 on September 7, 2007, at 8:57:43
Hi Girlinterrupted,
From what you wrote, it seems to me that you and your T are just not clicking. Her style and what you need in a therapist don't seem to be a good match. If it were me I would end therapy and find a therapist that can give me what I need.
I am lucky that my T and I work well together (even when I cross my arms and legs tight.) She starts each session with "Hi, how was your week" and draws responses beyond my "so, so."
Good luck. You deserve a T that listens and talks!
Poet
Posted by annierose on September 7, 2007, at 17:18:15
In reply to Re: Frustrated and unhappy with T, posted by Racer on September 7, 2007, at 12:11:53
You have gotten great responses and I agree with all of them. Sometimes t / clients are just not good fits. Othertimes, the t's approach just rubs you the wrong way ... it doesn't mean she is not professional, ethical, etc ... it's just not what you want out of this relationship right now.
Having said all that, I do want to throw out something out there, sometimes your resistance is a red flag. It signals that this is an area that needs exploring. If she is a blank slate type of person, all this angst you are experiencing is coming from some experience inside of you that needs attention.
You mentioned that she is bringing her stuff into the therapy room. How so? Does she talk about her life and friends and family? Or are you projecting anger onto her reaction of saying little?
My t is psychodynamic, a sort of blank slate approach, but she definitely talks, asks questions, gives direction, comfort, pulls things together, etc. etc. But these sort of relationships do take time to develop. I think there are studies that show the orientation of the therapist isn't as important as how much the client feels the therapist can help them.
I would like to hear how she brings her stuff into your sessions.
Posted by Maria01 on September 7, 2007, at 18:44:11
In reply to Frustrated and unhappy with T, posted by girlnterrupted78 on September 7, 2007, at 8:57:43
Sounds like a bad "fit" between you and your T. She sounds very traditional/analytic. Have you considered setting up a consult with a T who has a different approach. Humanistic T's and psychodynmaic T's tend to be more interactive with their clients, and see therapy as more of a two-way street.
At any rate, if you do not feel safe with your present T, that is reason enough to seek out another T. Regardless of a T's style/approach, the therapy won't be successul/beneficial unless there is a good "fit" between therapist and client. I do hope things improve, or that you are able to find someone more compatible.
Posted by girlnterrupted78 on September 8, 2007, at 2:07:07
In reply to Re: Frustrated and unhappy with T » girlnterrupted78, posted by Dinah on September 7, 2007, at 9:36:37
Thank you for your response, Dinah.
> You've given her a decent try, and she's not someone you feel you can work productively with. Perhaps it's time to cut your losses and find a therapist who suits you better.
I've been thinking about this, and yes, it might be in my best interest. I guess I've been afraid of the situation that might develop, and of my T's reaction. I don't know how to handle it and it sort of makes me scared. Terminations are always scary to me, so I guess I'm procrastinating..
> It doesn't matter so much who is right and who is wrong.
I actually find the 'who's right and who's wrong' sort of relevant. I just feel that it would be a learning experience for me to explore the wrongfulness or rightfulness of our behaviors. I keep wondering what is it that make me despise this woman, and all I can come up with is that I have zero respect for her due to her behavior being unethical (imo).
On the other hand, (and even though I think I'm right (of course)) I might be doing something wrong that I don't see? I think she's "wrong", because of the reasons I mentioned: She is not open to honest communication, she denies her feelings during the therapy, she is overly sensitive and takes things personally even when they aren't even remotely meant for her, she believes her behavior as a therapist has no bearing on her patient (so that she feels free to act annoyed without speaking about it, and be unwilling to respond when I ask her.) She never dares speak openly about problems and instead you will see her take a passive-aggressive mode of behavior. Does it sound like an honest, reasonable T? Not to me.
>There are a heck of a lot of therapists like that out there. If you were near me, I'd give you biofeedback guy's name.
I'm in NYC, are you around this area? And you're right. There must be lots of therapists with different styles who might fit me better. I will have to start my search soon.
> Are you familiar with CBT? It's definitely results oriented.I've read about it, but I've never tried it. My current T claims to know about it, and we were going to try it someime. But given our current relationship, I'd rather do it with someone else.
> Perhaps you'd find it useful. There are other styles of therapy that also stress active intervention on the part of the therapist.
Are those individual therapists' styles, or specific types of therapy?
Before this T, I had a male T for a month only (because I had to stop therapy due to my financial circumstances.) He was exactly what I was looking for.
He was kind, open, and friendly; he made me feel fully comfortable the minute I entered the room. He was passionate about learning about my life. He did a lot of talking. He'd be fully OPEN about anything that came up in the therapy. He was simply the opposite of my current T: Someone who inspired self-confidence, who was fully engaged in the therapy, & who had his feelings under control and was able to be open about them.
Too bad that things happened the way they did and I ended up stuck with this other woman who seems to have her own share of psychological issues, which she denies fully, and which fully interfere with the therapy.
Posted by girlnterrupted78 on September 8, 2007, at 2:23:48
In reply to Re: Frustrated and unhappy with T » Dinah, posted by girlnterrupted78 on September 8, 2007, at 2:07:07
Posted by Wittgenstein on September 8, 2007, at 4:20:49
In reply to Re: Frustrated and unhappy with T » Dinah, posted by girlnterrupted78 on September 8, 2007, at 2:07:07
I agree with the other posters. Perhaps your therapist has her own problems, perhaps these are problems you are projecting onto the 'blank slate' - either way, her approach sounds like that of a fairly traditional analyst and this isn't the right approach for everyone.
You asked whether therapists practice their own type of therapy or whether there are general types of therapy. There are various schools - such as analytic, psychodynamic, cognitive-behavioural therapy, humanistic, EMDR, DBT - different approaches are suited for different problems, different therapy goals, short-term or long-term treatment, and what suits each client best i.e. what they are comfortable with. Many T's seem to take a patient-centred eclectic approach i.e. they have training in various methods and suit the therapy for the client - it sounds like such a therapist would be more suitable for you, rather than someone who rigidly sticks to the 'blank slate' approach.
My therapist is analytic in his approach, which suits me - I have to start the sessions as he just sits there and looks at me. He does give me feedback and offers interpretations but it certainly isn't an 'exchange' in the sense one might expect from a psychodynamic therapist - I have to do most of the talking. I can see how this would be a real problem for some people - as it could feel like cold behaviour. That said, when I think he's angry with me or feeling negative in some other respect, he always takes care to reassure me that he is not thinking this - and I often have these thoughts. Also, if I ask him a question, he will always offer a thoughtful answer - he doesn't just dismiss me. I wouldn't like it at all if he would say "so what if I am angry?" (actually that would destroy me) - a therapeutic relationship requires trust and honesty, so of course it matters deeply if the client senses hostility from their therapist whether that hostility is real or not, and I feel regardless of their approach the therapist should explore that openly with their client.
The fact you have gone several months and feel so negative about the relationship you have with your T is a clear sign that things aren't right - you need to click with your therapist and it doesn't sound like this has happened. It's interesting that your therapist is not questioning the lack of a click - surely she also senses your negative transference - I would question her why she doesn't offer reassurance or respond to this - why the lack of a click doesn't worry her as clearly it has created a feeling of stalemate.
Finally, you say you found a great therapist before with whom you clicked - which approach did he have - could you still find out? Could he recommend you someone who takes your insurance/whom you can afford? Or perhaps he offers a sliding scale? Is gender a significant factor here perhaps - some people prefer male over female or vice versa. I chose a male therapist as I would have big problems trusting a female T due to my past.
Good luck and hope you find a good therapist and the right therapy for you.
Witti
Posted by Dinah on September 8, 2007, at 9:08:06
In reply to Re: Frustrated and unhappy with T » Dinah, posted by girlnterrupted78 on September 8, 2007, at 2:07:07
Unfortunately I'm no where near New York. But if you found a therapist before who suited you, I'm sure you can find another.
Her approach sounds pretty standard to some schools of therapy. I don't think that in itself what you describe would be unethical. She may or may not be very skilled. And more importantly, that may or may not be the right approach for you. There have been any number of people here who have found great benefit with therapists who wouldn't suit me at all. I may not understand it, but I recognize that the style is helpful to them.
I've walked away from a fair number of adjunct therapists and pdocs who didn't suit me. Did that say something about me? Sure. What suits me says a lot about me. What I can't tolerate says a lot about me. My interpretations of what's happening in a relationship says a lot about me. And they often throw light on experiences I have in the rest of my life as well. I've explored it with my therapist, who suits me nicely, but I haven't continued seeing the others.
I think other posters have posted some interesting thoughts along those lines. And you might want to explore them with a therapist you can feel comfortable with.
Wittgenstein's post told you about some different types of therapy. And if you want to go into your next therapy search with enough knowledge to be an informed consumer (I was obsessive about it - control issues on my part), you might want to do an internet search on types of therapy or schools of therapy or something along those lines.
Or perhaps posters could give you some insights if you start a thread asking about the types of therapy they're in. I know we have posters doing schema therapy, rational emotive therapy (not sure if I got that right), analysis of one type or another, and CBT or DBT.
My therapist was trained in CBT, which is the most common sort of therapy in the US right now, since insurance companies tend to like it. I found the approach helpful, but over time he moderated his approach to one I found even more helpful because his main therapy idea is that what you do or say isn't important if you aren't doing it in a way that a client can hear and embrace. I'm not sure I've ever heard a CBT therapist say that they're going to try the approach further along in therapy. I've heard that with EMDR and EFT (not sure if I got that right either), but most CBT therapists seem to start right off with that approach. There is lots of homework based on changing behaviors and identifying and challenging "distorted" (I prefer "unhelpful") ways of thinking. It's very directive and hands on, and tends to be focused on symptom relief and results.
But that won't tell you all you need to know about a therapist. Some are very wed to their own schools of therapy and rigid about deviations. Others tend to use what they find helpful for that client. Fit is at least as important as school of therapy, and fit is something that takes some trial and error.
I have some books somewhere in my psychology book section. I'll see if I can shove aside the stacks of stuff in my closet to get some titles.
Posted by sunnydays on September 8, 2007, at 21:01:36
In reply to Re: Frustrated and unhappy with T » girlnterrupted78, posted by Dinah on September 8, 2007, at 9:08:06
Oh Dinah. :) I just smiled when you said you hadn't heard of CBT being used later on in therapy... well... my T isn't trained in CBT and admits he doesn't know that much about it. He seems to think it could be helpful for me, so every once in a while he copies pages out of a workbook and I look at them and sometimes do them, and then he forgets to ask about them and I don't bring them up because I don't like them. And we go on doing what we normally do for 6 months or so until he decides maybe that would help again.
I just don't like CBT stuff, I find it too simplistic for the techniques to overcome the ways I think. But it could be useful. But I like the way we work better. :)
sunnydays
Posted by Dinah on September 8, 2007, at 22:48:23
In reply to Re: Frustrated and unhappy with T » Dinah, posted by sunnydays on September 8, 2007, at 21:01:36
Perhaps he's a therapist who augments with CBT rather than a CBT therapist. I'm guessing it's a different thing.
I find CBT quite useful. It wasn't what I needed long term. I'm not even sure there is long term CBT. But it was a useful base. If you add some of the DBT stuff to it, it can be immensely helpful.
Posted by sunnydays on September 9, 2007, at 9:26:35
In reply to Re: Frustrated and unhappy with T » sunnydays, posted by Dinah on September 8, 2007, at 22:48:23
No, he said he really doesn't know much about CBT at all, he just has heard from colleagues things that suggested to him it might be helpful. I think the reason I don't find it helpful is that he seems to pick times to do it that I think are really suboptimal. Oh well...
sunnydays
Posted by Girlnterrupted78 on September 9, 2007, at 14:23:14
In reply to Re: Frustrated and unhappy with T » Dinah, posted by RealMe on September 7, 2007, at 10:51:54
>My therapist is actually somewhat like what you describe. It is my reponsibility to start the session, but if I really look distraugt and am silent, he will ask what is going on with me, what is going through my mind.
Hmmm.. now that I think about it, my "good" therapist would also let me start the session sometimes. However, I didn't realize how 'bad' it was because I guess I actually wanted and enjoyed talking to him. With this woman, I don't want to talk to her, and even if she sees me quiet, she will continue silent, and with that clear expectation that *I* start. And I usually interpret her behavior as insecurity on her part, not as a way or method of doing therapy.
>I also know from today that he will ultimately do less and less of explaining and tying things to gether for me--only some now as I would become overwhelmed otherwise, and so his comments help contain me.
I wonder how would a style of limited communication with a T would help a patient? You are almost doing a monologue. That is something I would probably dread, but especially with a woman I have no respect for, like my T. Do you feel that a monologue is helping you out? Would more involvement from your T would help you more?
>Times are I think he is angry or bored or something, and it is me projecting my stuff onto him like 99.999% of the time.
Wow. How do you know you're projecting your stuff onto him 99% of the time? Is it *you* reasoning that, or have you asked him? What if he were truly bored or angry? He would not say it, right? Wouldn't that make you uneasy about continuing with your monologue?
Personally, I have started monologues with my current T because I feel forced to do so, not because I want to. Everything I've done with her I've done it out of a sense of expectation I feel from her. And I actually did tell her this. I used 3 whole sessions to tell her how I felt about the therapy, and how I feel entirely FORCED to be there and talk.
I told her I could not trust her because I didn't think she was being entirely honest with me. And lastly, I said I felt I was there to please her. I talked to please her, I brought up my personal stuff to please her, etc. Nothing was done because I wanted to, but because she expected me to.
After those 3 whole sessions, the 4th session she showed up with an attitude I had never seen before. First of all, she seemed furious. She was blushing, slightly sarcastic, and every little thing I said she would made it seem as if I was attacking her, when I clearly wasn't.
Like, I asked her (don't remember the context) I asked something regarding last session (the session where I brought up all the reasons I was unhappy.. Me: "You don't remember what we were talking about last session??" .. T: "What?? You're saying I don't remember? Well no, I don't."
Later, on a different context, same day: Me: "Well, I was very surprised that you could not remember what we've been talking about in the last few sessions.." T: "OF COURSE I REMEMBER!!! (very angry)"
Why is she LYING again?? Geez. In the same day she claimed she didn't remember (sarcastically), and THEN, when I said I was shocked about it, she admitted she DID remember...She was acting FURIOUS just because of the previous sessions--where I brought up the reasons I was unhappy in her therapy.
Then I told her: "You look furious" and she said "Well, yes, I am very frustrated.."
My thoughts: How is that my fault? I have been frustrated from the start. I do NOT trust her, and I was honest. So the solution is to become angry at me for it? Again, what kind of T acts this way?Then I said: "Well, I am uncomfortable in this therapy."
T: "Therapy is very hard work. It will be VERY difficult."I cannot remember all the details and contexts of that day, but I do remember that I was happy in a way, because FINALLY she had decided to come out of her shell. We had a relatively good session that day. But of course, things went back to normal and I cannot forget all the sarcastic, dishonest comments she made that day just because she was furious about my bringing up how unhappy I was in therapy.
Why is it wrong to say I'm unhappy? Isn't therapy about being honest? She was PUNISHING my honesty by becoming angry and sarcastic. Am I correct? At least I think I am.
I'm pretty sure therapy will be difficult, but the difficulty (imo) should lie in *my* dealing with my problems, not in my being unable to trust and tolerate the person who is my T--due to a behavior I consider unprofessional and/or unethical. Or in my lacking any respect for her. I don't think that should be the difficult part of therapy.
Thanks again for your response.
Posted by Girlnterrupted78 on September 9, 2007, at 14:53:33
In reply to Re: Frustrated and unhappy with T, posted by Racer on September 7, 2007, at 12:11:53
>From my reading of your post, I didn't get "insecurity and anger," so much as one particular style of doing therapy. I wonder if something might be going on inside you that might be worth exploring more, that you see it this way.
I guess it's something that I sense from her. When you see facial expressions, comments, behavior in general, you get a sense of the person you're dealing with. She in fact, at some point, when we became honest (or basically when I forced honesty from her) she said she felt afraid of saying things that would offend me or make me angry. And every time she gives any opinion, she starts by saying "Well, I don't want you to think I'm trying to judge... etc.. " She goes on and on about making sure I don't take her the wrong way, and I always reassure her and tell her to just say whatever she thinks.. She also said "Sometimes I prefer to keep my thoughts to myself because I feel I might offend you.." I am only paraphrasing because I can't remember the exact way she said it.
But why is she afraid of offending me? I have never complained, not even once, about being offended by a comment she's made. It's the opposite, the fact that she seems so insecure and unwilling to participate out of fear is what has been bothering me a lot. Why am I dealing with an insecure person in therapy?
In fact, during a difficult session when we argued, she said I had told her I was 'offended' or 'felt she was judging me' by a question she had asked about my brother. That was clearly a LIE. I am one of those people who would probably never use 'offended' or 'judged.' In fact, I love it when people bring up the wrong stuff, because it's a challenge for me to provide facts that they would have never thought of. I remember exactly the comment she made, and I recall I did challenge her back about what she said, as a way to engage her in the conversation, and because I noticed she was not getting what I had explained to her. But she felt it was an attack, when it was only a way for me to engage her deeper into the problem, to make her see things from a different point of view. She felt I was being hostile.
I think there is a whole mix of things here, and it all comes down to me thinking she is not really qualified and seems too afraid of being there. I remember my happiest day with her was when she came to therapy really pissed about my saying I was unhappy---because I finally saw a trace of confidence in her, and felt that finally I could have a strong, real conversation that would leave me something out of the therapy.
But unfortunately, her anger was accompanied with a few lies and sarcasm, which didn't help much. I remember that day I was very calm and even thanked her for the session. But then things kind of went back to being what they had been, and now I'm only angry about the lies and sarcasms she used that day. Because they simply served to show me her true character.
Thank you for your comments on my situation.
Posted by Girlnterrupted78 on September 9, 2007, at 16:23:57
In reply to Re: Frustrated and unhappy with T, posted by annierose on September 7, 2007, at 17:18:15
> You have gotten great responses and I agree with all of them. Sometimes t / clients are just not good fits. Othertimes, the t's approach just rubs you the wrong way ... it doesn't mean she is not professional, ethical, etc ... it's just not what you want out of this relationship right now.
Yeah, I don't know whether she is professional or ethical. I guess in my particular situation she hasn't been entirely herself and it has come across as unethical to me. But she definitely rubs me the wrong way.
> Having said all that, I do want to throw out something out there, sometimes your resistance is a red flag. It signals that this is an area that needs exploring. If she is a blank slate type of person, all this angst you are experiencing is coming from some experience inside of you that needs attention.
That's what my previous therapist (the one I liked) told me when I spoke to him about this. We only spoke for like 5 minutes, but he told me to give it a shot when I had almost decided to terminate it.
At some point my current T and I found that I was having the same issues with her as I had with my stepmother. But I doubt this has to do with a memory of my stepmother. The reality is that I simply can't tolerate someone who is supposed to be in a 'guidance' type of role, and who I sense to be lacking. How can I allow someone I sense to be unqualified and/or insecure, to guide me in any way? I sensed my stepmother to be fully insecure about me, and yet she was a guiding role to me. We ended up with life lasting problems.Now this therapist, who is supposed to "guide" me through recovery, I sense her to be insecure, lacking in character, sometimes dishonest, even unsure of what her therapy is like.
One time I told her I was confused about her therapy and wanted her to explain to me a little bit of how it worked or what she expected. Basically, she gave me a definition from psychology 101. "We will explore the issues that.. blah blah blah." I told her I was looking for a more specific answer, like: she would listen and not talk, or I would start the session and she would make a comment or two.. etc. I was confused about the fact that I barely knew her, and I was supposed to TRUST her all of a sudden. We hadn't even created a rapport, how did she expect me to suddenly confide everything in her?? I always sensed something was missing.. she had missed to do something very important to get me to trust her.. but apparently she didn't even realize this and she expected me to arrive the first day, sit down, and start trusting her just based on her role there. Well, NOOO.
I don't trust her. Either she does her job and creates some kind of intro that will make it easier for me to have a relationship with her, or I can't just meet her and make her job a piece of cake by creating the whole therapy myself just to PLEASE her, and then paying her for it.
> You mentioned that she is bringing her stuff into the therapy room. How so? Does she talk about her life and friends and family? Or are you projecting anger onto her reaction of saying little?
I have no idea what is happening. All I know is that she didn't do anything to make me trust her. I don't trust her, like her, and I feel she wants me to sit and talk and then pay her for it.
I don't know if I am projecting anger onto her reaction of saying little. All I know is that I feel like I'm there to please her. To do her job, and then pay her for it.
She seems afraid of talking, and she doesn't seem to know what to say either. She also seems EXTREMELY sensitive. She seems to take everything personally, so that is one of the thing she's bringing into the therapy. To the point that up to TODAY, I refrain myself up to 10 times per session from saying something. Like, the other day she mentioned she took her kids to school. I didn't know she had kids. Well, I didn't ask either, for fear that it might bother her that I might be intruding her life. I tend to restrain my talking a LOT in this therapy because I know she's easily annoyed and anything that might slightly touch more of her than it should, will annoy her. She has a very strong shell, that if I go beyond it by a fraction, will be a problem.So here I am, in therapy, doing an effort to make sure my comments are fully impersonal, never making a comment slightly conversational--and it doesn't feel as a therapy style, it feels more as making sure I keep the therapist happy and secure in her role. Like I said before to her: I am there to please her. So I am constantly changing my own versions of my thoughts to suit her sensitive personality and make sure nothing will annoy her even a little. It's such a pain because this is MY therapy, not HERS, and yet I am constantly worrying about her issues with sensitivity and annoyance.
So is there a red flag here? Maybe. But I am not sure if the problems here are mine, or the therapist's. She seems to have a whole bunch of issues of her own that seem to contaminate the therapy. In fact, I feel her issues make it IMPOSSIBLE for me to even start a therapy with her. If I have to constantly restrict myself in the way I say things, I am not doing anything for myself, but rather I am making sure the therapist is happy and I am ensuring her job satisfaction and also paying her for her services. This I'd call b*llshit therapy.
Posted by sunnydays on September 9, 2007, at 19:13:28
In reply to Re: Frustrated and unhappy with T » RealMe, posted by Girlnterrupted78 on September 9, 2007, at 14:23:14
I'm sorry, but I'm not seeing sarcasm in the ways your T responded. I hear a lot of frustration coming from you, which is absolutely understandable if you're not clicking with your T. Her last comment about therapy being very hard is something my T would say. I frequently say that I hate this or something, and he'll remind me that it is going to be hard to confront my feelings, but eventually I will move past it. Is there a bad experience you have had previously that you might be projecting onto your T here? You seem to be very sensitive to any indication of untrustworthiness on the part of your T, which many of us have. Is it possible this is a growth opportunity for you, a time for you to look at the possibility that your reactions may not have very much at all to do with her actual behavior and feelings, but more to do with your own sensitivities and insecurities? I'm absolutely not saying I'm correct, I'm just offering it as a thought. Because while it seems that your T and you don't click, I don't really see any problems with the statements she has made to you. It sounds like she is having human reactions to human reactions that you are having. T's aren't robots, so she wouldn't necessarily hide her feelings from you.
sunnydays
P.S. One other thing... my T would so tell me if he was angry. He would never be angry at me, but he tells me when my stories make him angry at other people in my life, or when he's proud of me or something. Bored? Not sure he gets bored with me :) although he yawned once last session and I freaked, but I don't think that was boredom.
Posted by sunnydays on September 9, 2007, at 19:19:06
In reply to Re: Frustrated and unhappy with T » annierose, posted by Girlnterrupted78 on September 9, 2007, at 16:23:57
One more question. What are your goals for therapy? I don't really get a sense that you have clear goals for it from your posts, although it's quite possible you do and just haven't been incorporating them into your posts. I think this anger sounds almost all-consuming in its intensity, which often indicates that the anger is out of proportion to whatever is going on. I understand you don't think she's qualified, but what if she is qualified and you are misperceiving her supposed insecurity because of your own issues? Again, she very well may be insecure, I have no way of knowing, these are just thoughts I have reading your posts.
sunnydays
Posted by girlnterrupted78 on September 10, 2007, at 0:05:24
In reply to Re: Frustrated and unhappy with T, posted by Maria01 on September 7, 2007, at 18:44:11
> Sounds like a bad "fit" between you and your T. She sounds very traditional/analytic. Have you considered setting up a consult with a T who has a different approach.
I wish, but I'm at slide-fee scale clinic. My previous T (the one I really liked) left this clinic and has his own practice, and I cannot afford him. It's a shame because he told me he could make a discount, but even with the discount I'd be paying more than 3 times what I pay here, plus I'd have to see a psychiatrist independently for 4 times what I pay at the clinic. Not a possibility for me at the moment.
> At any rate, if you do not feel safe with your present T, that is reason enough to seek out another T. Regardless of a T's style/approach, the therapy won't be successul/beneficial unless there is a good "fit" between therapist and client. I do hope things improve, or that you are able to find someone more compatible.
Thanks a lot. I agree that I need to feel safe and comfortable. But I wonder why others (such as my T) claim that I should remain in THAT therapy, despite knowing my feelings about it.
All my T said about my comments was "Therapy is very hard work" even though the problem I discussed with her were not related to the therapy!! I explained that the reasons I was unhappy had nothing to do with therapy, but with the fact that I did not trust her and I felt the only reason I was there was to please her. It was clear that my problems were with HER, not with the therapy itself. In fact, I could not do therapy at all because I did not trust her.
Posted by girlnterrupted78 on September 10, 2007, at 2:19:23
In reply to Re: Frustrated and unhappy with T, posted by Wittgenstein on September 8, 2007, at 4:20:49
> I agree with the other posters. Perhaps your therapist has her own problems, perhaps these are problems you are projecting onto the 'blank slate' - either way, her approach sounds like that of a fairly traditional analyst and this isn't the right approach for everyone.
Is it really possible for me to be confused enough to project my problems onto the therapist without realizing they are in fact MY problems and not the therapist's? And if that were the case, would my projections happen with every therapist, or only with a specific one that practices blank slate?
And if it happened only with a specific one, what does that say about that only one? She just happened to be the lucky one, or she might have some issues of her own?
Otherwise I imagine I'd be projecting my problems onto every other therapist. I have personally seen my therapist act annoyed and overly sensitive. What you (and others) are saying is that such annoyance and sensitivity might not exist, and might be my own projections on her, and that I simply am 'imagining' that she is annoyed and insecure, when in fact, she isn't?
And in fact, I might be the one who is annoyed and insecure? I'm not entirely sure what you mean by projection, so that's the closest I can get given my knowledge and imagination. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
> You asked whether therapists practice their own type of therapy or whether there are general types of therapy.
I know there are many approaches, but I was asking if my therapist, given my description of her behavior, was doing a specific type of therapy.
When I myself asked her how her therapy worked, she gave me a definition that came from psych 101! Something completely abstract that could mean ANYTHING. She said something along the lines of "Explore the issues of your life.. blah blah blah.." Yeah, that could mean anything and that's something EVERYONE knows about therapy.
If she had a school or an approach, I'm sure she would have mentioned it, but apparently she doesn't. So I told her I was looking for a more specific answer, and there she got stuck. WHY????
Why can't this therapist tell me what her method is? Could it be that her method is: "I sit, you talk, I say nothing, you pay, I earn." That seems like the most accurate description of her method to me. I even tried to help her by giving her an example. The "example" I gave her was what I had observed in her so far, so that's what I told her:
"Basically I will talk about my life, or my problems, and you will make a comment once in a while, such as the comments you've made so far, eg: 'yes, you had a tough childhood', 'your father was mean', etc.. That's the kind of answer I am looking for--which is what I've seen so far."
> I can see how this would be a real problem for some people - as it could feel like cold behaviour.I wouldn't mind this approach, if the therapist were able to actually DO something for me and I could see the benefit, and if he were able to actually make me comfortable. There's all types of approaches, and if they show results, I'd take them any day. It is when I have a real sense that I'm wasting my time and feel that I am getting no benefit, that I start to get incredibly frustrated. Just as frustrated as I am now.
>Also, if I ask him a question, he will always offer a thoughtful answer - he doesn't just dismiss me. I wouldn't like it at all if he would say "so what if I am angry?" (actually that would destroy me) - a therapeutic relationship requires trust and honesty, so of course it matters deeply if the client senses hostility from their therapist whether that hostility is real or not, and I feel regardless of their approach the therapist should explore that openly with their client.
Exactly my point. I'm glad you can see it. Everyone else seems to see my therapist's behavior as perfectly acceptable, and just as a bad fit. But nobody seems to realize that it takes honesty to build a relationship, and that I asked her whether she was angry, and that she denied it, even though she WAS in fact angry (she admitted it later) and even though such question was a HUGE block in the way of building our relationship--a relationship I expected should be based on HONESTY.
Yet, my therapist was annoyed that I even asked the question!! And out of frustration and annoyance, she asked me: "What is the point of knowing if I'm annoyed? What is the relevance of knowing this??"
Do you realize how little she thinks her behavior will impact her patient? So little that she is capable of asking me what is the relevance of her behavior towards me? Isn't it clear she thinks she's free to do as she pleases, and I'm supposed to like her and trust her despite her behavior towards me, and despite the fact that she won't even be honest to me, and will dismiss me when I ask about something I need to know? And people don't think this is being unqualified.. it's just "an approach."Don't people see how wrong this is?? I know you see my point, Witt, but nobody else here does. They all think it's just a bad fit, but not unethical in any way, while I think her dismissing my request is a way of telling me that her behavior is not to be questioned and that I should deal with it whether I like it or not, and that I must trust her with my life regardless. What kind of therapist does this? How can she think I will trust her when she can't even build an honest relationship with me, and when she is so selfish that she will behave as she pleases without any regard to my feelings, and even ask what do I care about her behavior?
And because she asked me such a question "what is the relevance of knowing whether I am annoyed?"
I was forced to tell her the truth. A truth that offended her (for obvious reasons): I said that I did not feel comfortable talking to her because I didn't even know why she was annoyed, and that I could not trust someone who was being dishonest to me and telling me she was not annoyed, even though it was pretty evident that she *was* annoyed.She was offended by this and claimed I was "hostile." I was simply answering HER question honestly. It DID matter if she was annoyed. And it did matter if she lied about it. And it *is* true that I could not trust her knowing she was not being honest. Her response? "You are hostile" That's how my honesty is taken. As hostility. What did she expect? She expected me to lie? Either that, or she expected me to not question her behavior.
On the fourth session, she CLOSED the discussion by coming to the therapy FURIOUS, sarcastic, blushing, and more dishonest than ever.
Ever since that day, I don't dare say I'm unhappy again because I'm afraid of triggering her anger again. I also never ask anything that I'm not sure might bother her. That's what I got for being fully honest. I got a full session of anger and sarcasm with lies (lies as in: She starts the session claiming she doesn't remember what we spoke about in our last 3 sessions, using a sarcastic tone, and later she furiously says "OF COURSE I REMEMBER WHAT WE SPOKE ABOUT") And I can't say anything because she's angry and I'm afraid of making her angrier.
Could that be just her "approach" which could benefit other patients? This seems to be the consensus on this board. Maybe other patients would be ok with this and not need honesty and wouldn't mind if she seems annoyed one day, or several times.. I guess I seem to be rare in needing a fully open and honest relationship.
> The fact you have gone several months and feel so negative about the relationship you have with your T is a clear sign that things aren't right - you need to click with your therapist and it doesn't sound like this has happened. It's interesting that your therapist is not questioning the lack of a click - surely she also senses your negative transference - I would question her why she doesn't offer reassurance or respond to this - why the lack of a click doesn't worry her as clearly it has created a feeling of stalemate.
Exactly. I wish she worried, but in the back of my mind, I just think she might have ulterior motives. Personal needs related to her work. I'm not certain, though. But you make a great point there. She SHOULD be concerned, and she clearly isn't. All she said to make me stay in her therapy is: Therapy is VERY HARD. It will be VERY HARD. But she doesn't realize that what is hard is to talk to and deal with HER. Not to deal with my issues. The problems have NOT been related to my past and my current life problems, but with our relationship. She's trying to confuse me on that matter by saying that THERAPY, the therapeutic process, is very hard. I haven't dealt with anything. I narrated a few things, she made a couple of comments and we moved on. How hard is that? Piece of cake. Especially because she doesn't challenge me in any way, or explores further. She changes the topic (probably because she doesn't know what else to do.)
> Finally, you say you found a great therapist before with whom you clicked - which approach did he have - could you still find out? Could he recommend you someone who takes your insurance/whom you can afford? Or perhaps he offers a sliding scale? Is gender a significant factor here perhaps - some people prefer male over female or vice versa. I chose a male therapist as I would have big problems trusting a female T due to my past.
No, he used to be in the clinic where I am, but left and has his own practice. He did offer me a discount, but it isn't nearly as affordable as the clinic where I am currently--which also offers psychiatric care at sliding fee scale. So I'd be paying 3-5 times more if I were to see him, unfortunately. I have no clue about his therapeutic approach, but he was simply fully engaged in the therapy from day 1, seemed passionate about learning about my life, and very interested in making connections about my behavior and my reactions. He made me excited about therapy because of how interested he seemed--and you can't transmit interest if you barely talk.
> Good luck and hope you find a good therapist and the right therapy for you.
>
> WittiThanks a lot. Your post was great, very thoughtful and informative. I appreciate it.
GI78
Posted by Racer on September 10, 2007, at 2:54:00
In reply to Re: Frustrated and unhappy with T » Wittgenstein, posted by girlnterrupted78 on September 10, 2007, at 2:19:23
It's way past my bedtime, but I wanted to give a very quick answer to some of your post. Again, these are quick reactions, and I'm tired enough they may not make a huge amount of sense to anyone except me...
> >
>
> Is it really possible for me to be confused enough to project my problems onto the therapist without realizing they are in fact MY problems and not the therapist's? And if that were the case, would my projections happen with every therapist, or only with a specific one that practices blank slate?Answer: yes, it's possible to project without realizing you're doing it -- in fact, that's pretty much the definition of this kind of projection. If you knew you were doing it, you probably wouldn't be doing it.
No, it wouldn't necessarily happen with every therapist. You've already mentioned in another post that you've got some transference going on with this therapist -- the part about not respecting her the way you didn't respect your stepmother? It's possible that there's something about this woman which is recreating some aspect of your relationship with your stepmother, and that that's what's causing the problems.
>
> No, he used to be in the clinic where I am, but left and has his own practice. I have no clue about his therapeutic approach, but he was simply fully engaged in the therapy from day 1, seemed passionate about learning about my life, and very interested in making connections about my behavior and my reactions. He made me excited about therapy because of how interested he seemed--and you can't transmit interest if you barely talk.Honestly, I was going to ask you about this based on other posts -- do you think it's a question of gender for you? I don't think I could see a man -- although I suspect I'll have to see a man eventually, to try to work out my issues with men -- but it sounds as though maybe it's harder for you to work with a woman? Then again, considering the transference going on now, I'd say it might be a good idea for you to see a woman therapist at some point. This may not be the ideal time, but it sounds as though there's a pretty rich vein to be mined there.
Can this agency transfer you to another therapist? Sometimes that's what it takes. And, sometimes they can't do that.
As far as this therapist goes, some of what you wrote sounds to me as though she may have a good deal going for her. I know it's probably very hard to believe that, but I saw a few things that jumped out at me. I'll try to get here tomorrow, when I have some more time, and try to explain them.
Good luck, and I hope things work out for you.
Posted by Wittgenstein on September 10, 2007, at 4:03:58
In reply to Re: Frustrated and unhappy with T » Wittgenstein, posted by girlnterrupted78 on September 10, 2007, at 2:19:23
GI,
I would suggest you do what you can to find a new T and work through all these feelings about the experience you have had with your current T. It's clear this has had a huge effect on you and by working through this with a caring and open therapist could help you a great deal in many ways.
When looking for a therapist, you should go prepared - ask them where they trained, what school of therapy they offer, how they work with the client (i.e. are they interactive and relationship-focused) and test them out - see how you feel. Many offer a free first session. There needs to be a click in therapy - you are working closely with this person and how can anyone expect you to trust her and be open with very personal things if you don't feel comfortable and safe with her. That's a given in my opinion.
The question of whether your T is unethical or not: I imagine people are hesitant to say yes or no because there hasn't been a violation in the traditional sense - i.e. overstepping her professional boundaries (sounds like she has been keeping too tight a set of boundaries). It does sound very much like her behaviour is untherapeutic. I wonder how her other patients find her - of course there's no way of knowing. I certainly wouldn't stick around with such a T - I would find it damaging and NOT therapeutic.
I had one nasty experience with a T - I fortunately only saw her twice. Her behaviour was verging on unethical but it was more a matter of unprofessionalism and obvious lack of experience - she just wasn't a good T.
Perhaps some clients find your T very different - perhaps the pair of you are just a bad match and somehow she is responding to you negatively (and don't see this as being your own fault, it isn't) - which is very unprofessional - a therapist should deal with their own feelings (countertransference) in a professional way and not let them contaminate the therapeutic relationship.
One thing though - you said she sometimes claims to have forgotten what you said in earlier sessions. I admit it is weird that she later angrily says that of course she remembered what you had said - sounds like she's just setting you up so that she can vent (not good!). However, my therapist often implies he has forgotten something when really he hasn't - I tend to write him mails when I can't bring myself to talk about something. It's getting to a point where I really need to be able to talk about these things and so he asks me to explain again what was in the mails. "Can you remind me what was in that mail you sent me?" Of course he knows what's in the mails but it's a way of making me go over it without avoiding an issue.
Analytic style therapy doesn't have to feel cold. When you enter therapy you will naturally bring with you assumptions (or patterns of thinking - projections/transferences) from your early relationships with key figures in your life. If you experienced hostility and anger from a primary care given (and I'm being very simplistic here), you may have a tendency to approach all relationships with the fear that the other person is harbouring hostile and negative thoughts toward you.
In normal everyday life you can deal with these fears by testing the relationship and gaging the response of the other person. In therapy, such fears can be intensified by the lack of a response from the therapist - far more is left open to question. If you have an analytic style therapist they will tend to hold back - let you project these fears onto them - this way your patterns of thinking and the underlying causes can be examined closely. A good therapist realises this, doesn't take a patient's fears or distrust to heart in this way but does his/her best to reassure their client that these fears are not the case and then to explore them therapeutically.
Hope this helps. I think the best thing is to get out. It's clear your T's not helping you - probably lack of experience. Why is it so important for you to validate that she has done something wrong? Surely by moving on and finding someone who is compassionate and effective is a clear message in itself. You need to work through these feelings with a new caring T.
Good luck,
Witti
Posted by Girlnterrupted78 on September 10, 2007, at 4:58:10
In reply to Re: Frustrated and unhappy with T » girlnterrupted78, posted by Racer on September 10, 2007, at 2:54:00
> Answer: yes, it's possible to project without realizing you're doing it -- in fact, that's pretty much the definition of this kind of projection. If you knew you were doing it, you probably wouldn't be doing it.
I still don't understand it. I've been specific about the things that bother me about this T. I've said she gets easily annoyed when something goes beyond her comfort zone, to the point where I no longer feel free to talk and I'm constantly watching what I say, which makes it impossible for me to feel comfortable in therapy.
So what would be the projection here? Could it be that she is not annoyed and that it's just my imagination? Well, she in fact admitted to having been uneasy/uncomfortable when I tried to engage her, and she denied annoyance. But then again, her initial answer to that was "What is the point of knowing if I'm annoyed? What is the relevance?"
Do you realize what this means? A therapist telling a patient that whether she is annoyed or not is (almost) not of her business. She is basically telling me that her behavior in therapy is NOT to be questioned. This angered me. Am I projecting something there? Did I imagine the answer? This is one of the reasons I despise her--how can she tell a patient that her behavior is not to be questioned, even though therapy is supposed to be an open space for honesty and for being truthful? Isn't she flat-out defeating the purpose of therapy to save face? I think this is unprofessional, but everyone else claims I'm projecting my own (lack of professionalism?) on this poor T, and she's an innocent victim of my accusations? I would never answer like that. Ever. But it turns out I'm projecting? Interesting, because I explained my true feelings to her hundreds of times, as honestly as possible. And yet she came up furious after listening to them. I'm telling her the honest truth, and she responds with anger. Yet *I* am projecting??? Geez. I guess therapy might not be for me.
> No, it wouldn't necessarily happen with every therapist. You've already mentioned in another post that you've got some transference going on with this therapist -- the part about not respecting her the way you didn't respect your stepmother? It's possible that there's something about this woman which is recreating some aspect of your relationship with your stepmother, and that that's what's causing the problems.
You know, deep down, I always felt that I mentioned my stepmother to make this woman feel better about herself. In the back of my head, when I mentioned this, I felt: "This is going to make her feel so much better, and now she'll have a great explanation for herself." She doesn't remind me of my stepmother in the least, as my stepmother is a lot more talkative. However, there's one aspect in which they are very similar, and the reason I brought it up: Their extreme sensitivity, their inability to deal with problems honestly, and the fact that they ALWAYS felt attacked by me, even though I never meant to attack them.
My stepmother was outrageous in her sensitivity and her inability to DEAL with any problem. She was twice divorced, and she never had the guts to stand up for herself and face her marital problems. She always used other tactics like manipulation, hiding behind her family, etc.
NEVER in her life did she say "OK, today we'll have a talk because things are not working out." She'd simply become furious, would be abusive and then she'd stop speaking to me for days, and would never begin dialogue again. Since it was "my fault" I was expected to come out and apologize and make her happy again. She never took the conciliator role, and I was just a CHILD. Ever since I was about 5. How could a child have the emotional strength to deal with this? I didn't and it destroyed me.
How is she similar to this therapist? In that this T, IMO, lacks the ability to guide and her sensitivity far overwhelms her to the point of granting her incapable of being a guidance role for me. She rather pushes things under the rug, than have an open discussion on how things aren't working out. When I had the guts to bring up how our relationship was not working, she took it as an attack rather than as honesty on my part, and came FURIOUS days later to "fix" things her way.
The similarities I see is their inability to handle their sensitivity and their anger, their inability to have honest communication without going insane about it if anything negative is ever said about them, their pushing problems under the rug rather than discussing them, and their being manipulative.
> Honestly, I was going to ask you about this based on other posts -- do you think it's a question of gender for you?
Are you implying this based on a SINGLE woman I've spoken about? How so? Wouldn't it take more than one problematic female T to make such an assumption?
>I don't think I could see a man -- although I suspect I'll have to see a man eventually, to try to work out my issues with men -- but it sounds as though maybe it's harder for you to work with a woman? Then again, considering the transference going on now, I'd say it might be a good idea for you to see a woman therapist at some point. This may not be the ideal time, but it sounds as though there's a pretty rich vein to be mined there.
I saw a few women before, for short periods of time unfortunately ( at a previous clinic I used to go to, where there was outrageous rotation of Ts, and my Ts would always end up transferring after a couple of months.)
I never had these issues with ANY of those women. There was always something I liked about them, or even if they weren't the perfect fit, I don't think they angered me to this point. They at least seemed pretty secure in what they were doing, even if whatever it was, wasn't helping me. They didn't bring their anger or their personal issues into the therapy. And none of them made it so obvious that she couldn't care less about my inquiries regarding her feelings. My current T is bold and strict about her boundaries, and the minute something touches a boundary (like asking if she's annoyed--which she believes is NONE OF MY BUSINESS) will trigger annoyance and anger.
> Can this agency transfer you to another therapist? Sometimes that's what it takes. And, sometimes they can't do that.
I believe so. I haven't had the guts to tell my current T that I'm done with her. Not sure how to say it, either. But I will wait 1 or 2 sessions to do so.
> As far as this therapist goes, some of what you wrote sounds to me as though she may have a good deal going for her. I know it's probably very hard to believe that, but I saw a few things that jumped out at me. I'll try to get here tomorrow, when I have some more time, and try to explain them.
A good deal going for her? You mean something positive going on for her? I'm not sure what you mean, but I'd like to hear what you think of her based on what I've written.
Thanks so much for writing despite being past your bedtime. I know how hard that is, and I tend to screw up my bedtime all the time when something grabs my attention at the wrong time!
> Good luck, and I hope things work out for you.
Thank you again. Hope to hear from you.
GI78PS. Just curious: are you a man or a woman? Thx.
Posted by Racer on September 10, 2007, at 16:41:39
In reply to Re: Frustrated and unhappy with T » Racer, posted by Girlnterrupted78 on September 10, 2007, at 4:58:10
I'm sorry -- I didn't sleep well last night, and don't have the energy today to give you a full response. I really will try to finish my thoughts later, but it's more likely to be tomorrow.
> > Answer: yes, it's possible to project without realizing you're doing it -- in fact, that's pretty much the definition of this kind of projection. If you knew you were doing it, you probably wouldn't be doing it.
>
> I still don't understand it. I've been specific about the things that bother me about this T. I've said she gets easily annoyed when something goes beyond her comfort zone,
>
> So what would be the projection here? Could it be that she is not annoyed and that it's just my imagination?What I meant is that when you -- the generic 'you,' or one, rather than you specifically -- attribute emotional states or reactions to others, it's not necessarily their actual states you're responding to. Often, you're "projecting" something onto them.
Is it "just your imagination?" I don't think of it that way at all. You're applying one interpretation to her behavior, based on a lot of things in your history, experience, emotional reality, psychological make up, etc. None of that is imaginary -- it's all any of us has, and we all do it. What I am saying, though, is that it's not necessarily based on your T's actual experience.
Here's a link to the Wikipedia article about it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection
I don't know if you've taken any psych classes, but a lot of the words and phrases used in formal psychology are easy to misinterpret. "Defense mechanism" sounds remarkably like phrases used in common speech to imply someone is "being defensive." The two are very different, though. Being defensive can be a defense mechanism, but it's not a synonym. Here's a quote from another Wikipedia article about defense mechanisms:
"Are they pathological?Defence mechanisms are helpful and, if used in a proper manner, are healthy. However, if misused, the defence mechanisms may also be unhealthy"
(I just want to be clear here that I'm not saying that projection is "bad." There are a lot of examples where projection is the most adaptive reaction to a situation, where it's very positive.)
Since we can't see your T's face, or watch her body language, we can only go by our own experiences in responding to your posts. To me, based on my own background, psychological make up, etc, some of what you've described of your T's behavior has a very different interpretation than the one you attribute to it. Maybe you're right, maybe I'm right, maybe neither of us are anywhere near the mark. But often, the same events look very different to different people.
As for transference, that's complicated. There's a Wikipedia article on it, but again -- I suspect it's easy to interpret it as negative. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transference
Transference in therapy is very often a very good thing. There is also negative transference in therapy, where we transfer negative aspects of a previous relationship to the therapist -- and from what you've written, it sounds as though you may be experiencing that with this therapist. It's not that your therapist reminds you of your stepmother -- only that you may have "transfered" certain aspects of the relationship into the therapy.
Overall, though, the only thing I've read here that raised any concerns on my part was something (can't remember what) that made me think she may not have a huge amount of experience. Doesn't mean she's bad, just means maybe she may not have a lot of experience. And I could be wrong. There was something you recounted that sounded to me as though she may have gotten a consult with another T -- which is actually a good thing, since it would mean she's trying to improve her interactions with you.
Anyway, I hope that makes what I was trying to say a little clearer. I'd also like to reiterate something I think may not have been clear earlier: I have had very bad experiences with Ts. I don't think it's possible to work with any T who walks into the room. Heck -- I've spent thousands of dollars over the years going to initial appointments with Ts looking for the right fit. You're not in a position to do that right now, I know, but it may be possible to transfer to another T within the agency. You may find a better fit. (Remember, though: it may actually be worse... I speak from experience.) All I'm trying to say in all of this is that it may not be that your T is a terrible person, it may just be that you're not a good fit together. Just trying to show another point of view, apparently rather clumsily.
I hope that's clearer.
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