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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 7 to 31 of 58. Go back in thread:
Posted by lostsailor on November 6, 2002, at 14:37:22
In reply to Re: folder/file system, posted by mashogr8 on November 5, 2002, at 19:14:04
I hope that you took no offece to my original post, Dr. Like the last person who resonded mentioned that you can get "lost". I think what I should have articulated better is, yes, complicated. It's just that it can be hard when beliving that you are folloing the discussion and than it changes without a new thread or a proper subject. Could making the subject field blank by default while requiring posters to write a min of say 10 charecters....>>>???
Thank you for the resouse as a whole though. Maybe I still need to better learn to navigate.
~Tony
Posted by Dr. Bob on November 6, 2002, at 20:26:25
In reply to Re: folder/file system for doctor bob, posted by lostsailor on November 6, 2002, at 14:37:22
> Could making the subject field blank by default while requiring posters to write a min of say 10 charecters....
Hmm, interesting idea, what do others think? People tend not to like being required to do anything, but...
Bob
Posted by Tabitha on November 7, 2002, at 1:54:31
In reply to Re: making the subject field blank by default, posted by Dr. Bob on November 6, 2002, at 20:26:25
I think if you did that, you'd get a lot of subject lines with random typing in them, like "dkdkdkdkd" from those same people who don't like to enter a subject line that matches their post.
Posted by bluedog on November 8, 2002, at 21:12:02
In reply to DOC BOB--others read, too « lostsailor, posted by Dr. Bob on November 3, 2002, at 14:54:54
Dr Bob
I even though I don't mind the current system I do tend to agree with lostsailorAs a suggestion, would it be possible to make psychobabble accessible via one of the newsreader programs like found in Outlook Express.
I think the usenet newsgroup style is the most practical and user friendly style available as it behaves just like using email and is a lot faster, more efficient system than accessing a message board through internet explorer.
I have provided a link to a website that I think has got it right. This site is run by Steve Gibson who is a computer programmer and computer security/privacy expert. The discussion groups at this site run very smoothly in a cooperative and supportive environment just like at psychobabble. This is really saying something considering that this sites discussion groups had nearly 100,000 postings in just the last four weeks.
see http://grc.com/discussions.htm
I don't know but maybe Steve Gibson can even give you some advice on the topic.
Thanks for hearing me out
Posted by Dr. Bob on November 9, 2002, at 0:40:51
In reply to Re: DOC BOB--others read, too « lostsailor » Dr. Bob, posted by bluedog on November 8, 2002, at 21:12:02
> http://grc.com/discussions.htm
> > Although reminiscent of eMail messaging, newsgroups add the powerful concept of "conversation threads"
Psycho-Babble is threaded...
> > Another important advantage is that the software for reading these newsgroups typically downloads only the message "headers" for new notes, rather than the note's complete content.
Psycho-Babble downloads only the headers of posts. You don't get the complete content, the posts themselves, unless you click on the headers...
> > And finally, as you can see from the diagram to the left, news reading software "remembers" which notes you have already read (dimmed out) and which notes you have not yet seen.
And Psycho-Babble flags the posts that have been posted since the last time you visited.
And did you see that diagram??? Would you prefer a folder/file system like that?
Bob
Posted by bluedog on November 9, 2002, at 10:40:54
In reply to Re: GRC Newsgroups, posted by Dr. Bob on November 9, 2002, at 0:40:51
I hope I didn't cause you any offence with my post. I know that you've put a lot of time and effort into psychobabble as it is. I must also say that I am a computer gumby and I personally would not have had the computer skills to start up and run a message board as well as you have.
In reply to your question regarding the file/folder system.
> >And did you see that diagram??? Would you
> >prefer a folder/file system like that?
I have to say that I personally really like that file system and I like the newsreader format in general but I emphasize that is just my opinion.I agree with your all your points but I think there are subtle differences between the newsreader system and a web based system. The reasons I like the newsreader system are as follows.
1. My impression is that the download and display times are faster in a newsreader than in a web based message board.
2. In the newsreader format you only need have the heading of the first post in a thread visible leaving more space on the screen to display the threads you are interested in.
3. You can have multiple posts opened in separate windows and displayed on the screen side by side at the same time and with ease in reduced size windows.
4. You can swap between different newsgroups (eg between PB and PSB) without having to scroll to the top or bottom of the screen. You can set up your newsreader to display the different groups in a separate column down the side (in the same column you can also have links directly to your email items like inbox, sent items etc)
5. But I think the real strength of the newsreader system is the way that you compose and send new posts. It is very much like composing emails and you can use the whole screen
to view the post that you are composing. You can also very easily reduce the size of the window in which you are composing a new post and then open and review other post in the thread and display all these posts plus the post you are composing side by sideI don't know if you can easily do all of the above on PB but please correct me if I am wrong. Like I said above I am not in any way criticising the current system but I am only adding to the discussion started by lostsailor and stating what I believe to be differences between the current system and a newreader based system.
One thing with the GRC newsgroups ( see > http://grc.com/discussions.htm )is that you have the CHOICE between accessing the discussions either through the web based system OR through the newsreader system. If this were to be the case those that prefer to continue using the current system can, but for those that like the newsreader system they would also be happy.
I hope that my above points make sense. However if they don't maybe you could start a trial account on the GRC newsgroups to experiment and maybe my points will make more sense (or not) in this way rather than me clumsily trying to explain what I mean.
This is my humble opinion on this matter.
Thanks Dr Bob
Posted by lostsailor on November 9, 2002, at 16:10:12
In reply to Re: GRC Newsgroups, posted by Dr. Bob on November 9, 2002, at 0:40:51
I think that much of my original dilema has been helped by the posts here and better navigation on my part. My suggestion, I hope you know, was not ment to cause a lot of trouble, it was just a consumer's pt of view and idea. Thank you for reading and providing the site in general.
I am thinking now and prefernot to reload mail...if it is not mentioned on relies sent to me is there a way to stop email notification of updates. If not, could you post a how to.
thanks, doc
~tony
Posted by oracle on November 10, 2002, at 1:51:12
In reply to Re: GRC Newsgroups » Dr. Bob, posted by bluedog on November 9, 2002, at 10:40:54
This website is slow at times. Even if the website is up to speed the method is poor.
Select, download & read. Again, again, ect.In newsreader format, the process is more like:
select chuncks of header and body to read, download, then read, read, readOr, flag threads to watch and download headers and bodies as they grow
Or, configure on your reader usernames you do not ever want to see posts from, and you never do
using a newsreader means some processing is offloaded from your server to the user. Since you, Dr Bob, pay for the server it is your choice to pay more or less.
Posted by jay on November 10, 2002, at 16:29:27
In reply to Re: folder/file system, posted by Dr. Bob on November 3, 2002, at 23:50:23
Dr. Bob:I have an idea of your system in mind from another board I post on.
It is the 'Infopop Ultimate Bulletin Board'. An example of it can be found here (just so you can see how it works...it is a fan site for a rock band): http://www.worldwidewebtour.com/peaceablekingdom/ultimatebb.cgi
The actual company, Infopop, has the software here:
http://www.infopop.com/products/ubb/This can be really neat, because you could even let people choose from a pre-approved (or personalized..with your approval) icons associated with the user name. I am not sure if it is too expensive or too over-done with features for what you require. Please..let us know what you think! (And no..I am not an 'Infopop' salesperson...lol!)
Thanx,
Jay
Posted by bluedog on November 10, 2002, at 23:59:21
In reply to Re: GRC Newsgroups, posted by oracle on November 10, 2002, at 1:51:12
Dr Bob
Heres an example of another feature that has just recently been introduced at GRC Newsgroups
https://grc.com/x/news.exe?cmd=article&group=grc.news&item=350&utag=I have seen a few examples of threads at pscychobabble where this feature would have been very handy for you
" Folks,Yesterday I took a few hours to implement a new discussion
management capability that I have had in mind for some time:Lockable Newsgroup Threads.
As I recently wrote in a reply to Sam Schinke in news.feedback ...
> It is inherently the case that people and egos are involved
> here. But egos are inherently "individual", whereas the needs
> of the entire community are what I, as manager, need to work
> to address and preserve. So when a discussion turns into "the
> thread that wouldn't die", loses its factual value, and becomes
> just about egos -- in other words, when it gets to the point
> where it might as well be taken to eMail since it's no longer in
> the community's interest to host the dialog -- it makes sense for
> me to administratively lock the thread.
>
> Essentially the electronic equivalent of the chairperson of a
> meeting saying "Okay everyone, enough already. Let's move on ..."The one thread I have locked so far was started one week ago on
Sunday, 11/03, by "bloated elvis" in the news.feedback group.Its original subject was: "private address space". However if you
reload that thread's root posting, you'll discover that the root
article's subject now reads:Subject: **LOCKED** private address space
I am able to lock any thread against further posting by editing the
original article's subject line so that it begins with the string
"**LOCKED**". When accepting any new article, the news server now
quickly checks the thread's root article to be sure that the thread
has not been locked. If the thread is locked, the user will receive
a posting error informing them that the thread is locked against
additional posting.(If you refresh your connection to the server, so that it's new since
last evening, you can see this for yourself by attempting to post to
that thread.)I do not anticipate using this facility often, since we generally
succeed in regulating ourselves within reason. But, as happened in
that "private address space" thread, individuals and egos sometimes
get quite caught up in points that no longer need making. When they
refuse to take the hint, I believe that locking threads which have
become pointless can be a gentle and useful tool which serves the
community's interests. :)Onward ...
--
_________________________________________________________________
Steve Gibson, at work on: < nailing down a million loose ends >"
Posted by Dr. Bob on November 11, 2002, at 1:16:43
In reply to Re: GRC Newsgroups...lockable threads, posted by bluedog on November 10, 2002, at 23:59:21
> 1. My impression is that the download and display times are faster in a newsreader than in a web based message board.
I know it can be slow here, sorry about that. I think I need to change how the server does some things... But that's a separate issue from how posts are displayed...
> 2. In the newsreader format you only need have the heading of the first post in a thread visible leaving more space on the screen to display the threads you are interested in.
That's true, the threads don't come "pre-expanded", you start with just the first post in each thread. But then it's an extra stop to expand each thread you're interested in. And if an unexpanded thread gets interesting, you'd miss it...
> 3. You can have multiple posts opened in separate windows and displayed on the screen side by side at the same time and with ease in reduced size windows.
You can also have web page links open in new resizable windows...
> 4. You can swap between different newsgroups (eg between PB and PSB) without having to scroll to the top or bottom of the screen.
How do you do it there?
> You can set up your newsreader to display the different groups in a separate column down the side
You mean have two groups displayed at the same time? You could do that here using separate windows...
> 5. But I think the real strength of the newsreader system is the way that you compose and send new posts. It is very much like composing emails and you can use the whole screen to view the post that you are composing.
>
> bluedogI know some people, myself included, would prefer a larger box to enter posts into. Sometimes I just type into Word and copy and paste.
But it might also be possible to let people adjust the size of the box. If I were to make aspects of this interface customizable, should I start there?
----
> I am thinking now and prefernot to reload mail...if it is not mentioned on relies sent to me is there a way to stop email notification of updates. If not, could you post a how to.
>
> ~tonyEach update email should give you a URL for that. For more information, see:
http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/extras.pl
----
> the method is poor.
> Select, download & read. Again, again, ect.
>
> In newsreader format, the process is more like:
> select chuncks of header and body to read, download, then read, read, readSorry, "chunks of header and body"?
> Or, flag threads to watch and download headers and bodies as they grow
You mean you can just "leave it on" and have them added in real time? Now *that* would be neat...
> using a newsreader means some processing is offloaded from your server to the user.
>
> oracleWhat part of the processing is that?
----
> > when a discussion turns into "the
> > thread that wouldn't die", loses its factual value, and becomes
> > just about egos -- in other words, when it gets to the point
> > where it might as well be taken to eMail since it's no longer in
> > the community's interest to host the dialog -- it makes sense for
> > me to administratively lock the thread.
>
> bluedogBut when is a thread "no longer in the community's interest"? Not everything here is about facts...
Bob
Posted by bluedog on November 11, 2002, at 1:52:41
In reply to Re: GRC Newsgroups, posted by Dr. Bob on November 11, 2002, at 1:16:43
>
> > 5. But I think the real strength of the newsreader system is the way that you compose and send new posts. It is very much like composing emails and you can use the whole screen to view the post that you are composing.
> >
> > bluedog
>
> I know some people, myself included, would prefer a larger box to enter posts into. Sometimes I just type into Word and copy and paste.
>
> But it might also be possible to let people adjust the size of the box. If I were to make aspects of this interface customizable, should I start there?
>
> ----
>In answer to your question. YES!!!!!
If you could only change one thing about Psychobabble of all the points I mentioned, I would choose to change the way that you compose and send posts.
Really, when it comes down to it I can put up with the other issues but the one thing that causes me REAL frustration is the way that you have to post.
Other than the size of the box the other thing that really frustrates me is the way that you can suddenly just lose a post that you've just composed (for example if you accidently forget to put in your password, or if you accidently check the "no message, just post the above subject" box, or if you go back and check up on a previous post in a thread because you need to refer to it for your current post)
I have had posts simply disappear on me for all of the above reasons which is absolutely horrible when you've just composed a lengthy post that you are rather pleased with.
Posted by Dinah on November 11, 2002, at 7:42:17
In reply to Re: GRC Newsgroups, posted by Dr. Bob on November 11, 2002, at 1:16:43
> And if an unexpanded thread gets interesting, you'd miss it...
>
Absolutely true, that happens all the time.> But when is a thread "no longer in the community's interest"? Not everything here is about facts...
>
> BobThanks Dr. Bob. It's great of you to recognize that, plus if you think you have troubles now, just imagine telling people that their discussion has, in your opinion, gone on long enough. :)
In my not so humble opinion, and to my admittedly easily overstimulated brain, the format to read posts here is far more visually pleasing and easier to follow than others I have seen.
Dinah
Posted by oracle on November 11, 2002, at 16:12:27
In reply to Re: GRC Newsgroups, posted by Dr. Bob on November 11, 2002, at 1:16:43
> Sorry, "chunks of header and body"?
Sorry, I am still ill and as of late am
no making sense.You download headers, select the threads you want to read and download them all.
>
> > Or, flag threads to watch and download headers and bodies as they grow
>
> You mean you can just "leave it on" and have them added in real time? Now *that* would be neat...Yep
>
> > using a newsreader means some processing is offloaded from your server to the user.
> >
> > oracle
>
> What part of the processing is that?One big get for the headers and bodies vs hundereds of little http gets if viewed by
web.
Posted by jay on November 11, 2002, at 17:13:07
In reply to Re: GRC Newsgroups, posted by Dr. Bob on November 11, 2002, at 1:16:43
I REALLY wish *somebody* would look at the Infopop "Ultimate Bulletin Board System".(In my post above) It is, hands down, the ABSOLUTE best, most flexible, and very, very AMAZING internet bulletin board available. It's kinda like the 'Porsche' of internet bulletin boards. It just CAN'T be beat..period.
Jay
Posted by lostsailor on November 11, 2002, at 19:00:42
In reply to Re: GRC Newsgroups, posted by Dr. Bob on November 11, 2002, at 1:16:43
Yes, I just sa the simple text with easy to use link to end email today, though for now I will follow. HHMM, right under my nose and i started all this . ~Tony
Posted by Dr. Bob on November 11, 2002, at 21:00:34
In reply to Re: GRC Newsgroups, posted by oracle on November 11, 2002, at 16:12:27
> > I know some people, myself included, would prefer a larger box to enter posts into. Sometimes I just type into Word and copy and paste.
> >
> > But it might also be possible to let people adjust the size of the box. If I were to make aspects of this interface customizable, should I start there?
>
> In answer to your question. YES!!!!!
>
> Other than the size of the boxJust to be clear, that's the one specific aspect I have in mind...
> the other thing that really frustrates me is the way that you can suddenly just lose a post that you've just composed (for example if you accidently forget to put in your password, or if you accidently check the "no message, just post the above subject" box, or if you go back and check up on a previous post in a thread because you need to refer to it for your current post)
>
> bluedogYou can't just go "back" in those cases?
----
> I am still ill and as of late am no making sense.
Sorry to hear that, hope you feel better soon!
> You download headers, select the threads you want to read and download them all.
OK, got it. Two steps, and you save on the second because you skip some threads.
> > > using a newsreader means some processing is offloaded from your server to the user.
>
> One big get for the headers and bodies vs hundereds of little http gets if viewed by web.And one big transfer is easier on the server than a hundred little transfers, even if the total amount transferred is the same?
> > > Or, flag threads to watch and download headers and bodies as they grow
> >
> > You mean you can just "leave it on" and have them added in real time? Now *that* would be neat...
>
> YepHmm, well, I guess a web page could be set to refresh itself periodically...
Bob
Posted by shar on November 12, 2002, at 10:36:00
In reply to Re: folder/file system..an example » Dr. Bob, posted by jay on November 10, 2002, at 16:29:27
> you could even let people choose from a pre-approved (or personalized..with your approval) icons associated with the user name.Maybe it's my old, tired eyes, but this is one of the features I find distracting (and that can take a long time to load on my puter) in other places I post. I usually turn off graphics when I go to sites with icons (which can create its own problems because sometimes there are navigation tools that are graphics without tags).
IMHO, plain is good. When the board for Social or Admin comes up, it is an easy to read list of threads in text format, and responding is easy (doesn't have some responses indented and others not, for example, which is often how I get lost), and a new window opens when I click on a post so the original list of threads is always there.
One example of what I do to make it even more simple is to resize my post-reading window to be somewhat smaller than the board's window. So, to get from a post back to the board I just click outside the post-window's frame onto the yellow of the board-window, and (voila!) there I am again.
That sounds complex to me even with a straightforward system.
I guess imo pb isn't fancy, but to me, it is very user friendly, which a lot of sites with more 'features' are not. And, for this particular site, I feel like the user-friendliness is really important (and even moreso for people who are posting in a language other than English, and translating).
Shar
Posted by Dr. Bob on November 12, 2002, at 17:57:05
In reply to Icons n other stuff, posted by shar on November 12, 2002, at 10:36:00
> One example of what I do to make it even more simple is to resize my post-reading window to be somewhat smaller than the board's window. So, to get from a post back to the board I just click outside the post-window's frame onto the yellow of the board-window, and (voila!) there I am again.
Have you ever tried the frames? For example:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/babble.html
Bob
Posted by IsoM on November 12, 2002, at 19:58:14
In reply to The absolute BEST Internet Bulletin Board..Infopop, posted by jay on November 11, 2002, at 17:13:07
Jay, I like the looks of that board but I think the icons, avatars, & the rest of the format may be a little too much for many. I know my mother would rather drive a boring car with automatic transmission than a fancy Porshe with a standard. Many people are like that about the internet. The simpler, the better for most.
By the way, thanks for that link! I now have a simple but fun Red Dwarf game from the sci-fi forum.
Posted by oracle on November 12, 2002, at 22:53:43
In reply to Re: size of box, newsgroups, posted by Dr. Bob on November 11, 2002, at 21:00:34
> And one big transfer is easier on the server than a hundred little transfers, even if the total amount transferred is the same?
The server is less concerned with size, that threads (also called processes). 100 pages loaded
is ~ 100 httpd treads started. Me fetching the board via NNTP all at once.The other advantage of NNTP is it is as old a protocal as any on the web. Every mail reader supports it.
Posted by bluedog on November 13, 2002, at 3:57:03
In reply to Re: size of box, newsgroups, posted by Dr. Bob on November 11, 2002, at 21:00:34
>
> > the other thing that really frustrates me is the way that you can suddenly just lose a post that you've just composed (for example if you accidently forget to put in your password, or if you accidently check the "no message, just post the above subject" box, or if you go back and check up on a previous post in a thread because you need to refer to it for your current post)
> >
> > bluedog
>
> You can't just go "back" in those cases?
>
> ----
>
> BobMany times when I attempt to go back it tells me that the page has expired and the post is gone for good.
Is there some way I can avoid this?
Posted by Dr. Bob on November 13, 2002, at 8:26:42
In reply to Re: size of box, newsgroups, posted by oracle on November 12, 2002, at 22:53:43
> > And one big transfer is easier on the server than a hundred little transfers, even if the total amount transferred is the same?
>
> The server is less concerned with size, that threads (also called processes). 100 pages loaded is ~ 100 httpd treads started. Me fetching the board via NNTP all at once.Hmm, I know the number of simultaneous server processes is limited. But these 100 wouldn't be simultaneous... And there's also the user side, for them it's one long wait vs. 100 short ones...
> The other advantage of NNTP is it is as old a protocal as any on the web. Every mail reader supports it.
Well, that's the other thing, how many people even have a newsreader anymore?
Bob
Posted by Dr. Bob on November 13, 2002, at 8:36:43
In reply to Re: size of box, newsgroups » Dr. Bob, posted by bluedog on November 13, 2002, at 3:57:03
> > > the other thing that really frustrates me is the way that you can suddenly just lose a post that you've just composed (for example if you accidently forget to put in your password, or if you accidently check the "no message, just post the above subject" box, or if you go back and check up on a previous post in a thread because you need to refer to it for your current post)
>
> Many times when I attempt to go back it tells me that the page has expired and the post is gone for good.
>
> Is there some way I can avoid this?Hmm, I don't think those pages are *set* to expire like that... So maybe it has to do with your browser? Does anyone else have any ideas?
Bob
Posted by oracle on November 13, 2002, at 10:50:37
In reply to Re: newsgroups, posted by Dr. Bob on November 13, 2002, at 8:26:42
> > The other advantage of NNTP is it is as old a protocal as any on the web. Every mail reader supports it.
>
> Well, that's the other thing, how many people even have a newsreader anymore?
>
> BobWell, if *every mail reader* supports it, I would think most people have a news reader !
Outlook/outlook express & netscape do.
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