![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 9339 to 9363 of 10407. Go back in thread:
Posted by jeminiwmn on November 11, 2005, at 15:52:23
In reply to Re: Anyone had success on Effexor XR?, posted by TinMan on November 9, 2005, at 14:56:18
I'm sorry, but you have me a little confused. YOu said the combo seems to be a good mix for you and then you stated that you are having all this negativity? So I'm wondering is it good or not? I was just discussing this combo w/ someone else.
Now I read this and I'm a little confused. Are you saying that you were getting bad and the new combo is making you better???Thanks-and I hope it's all positive for you.
Posted by jeminiwmn on November 11, 2005, at 16:25:52
In reply to Re: Effexor XR vs. Paxil and weight gain » jeminiwmn, posted by spierson1253 on November 10, 2005, at 19:10:34
I have to laugh at this point because I'm glad we are all talking here and possible beginning the see something here. We may suffer from depression, but it doesn't mean we are any less "intellegent" or "ignorant". One thing for sure is I think we may be a little more sensitive, even more so than others and with that, WE KNOW OUR BODIES-HELLLOOOO!!!!
NO-Don't argue w/ your dr. ever-you will insult them-there's a way to politely say things and as you say-copy and paste some of these-just don't give personal info-ie/emails etc...If that's ok w/ this site. I like your idea. I told my psych about "message boards" that are "monitered" and she couldn't disagree w/ me in that many, many people have the same "symptoms" as I have been telling her about for so long. So we may be on to something here. Good luck to you.
Posted by spierson1253 on November 11, 2005, at 17:25:32
In reply to Re: Anyone had success on Effexor XR?, posted by jeminiwmn on November 11, 2005, at 15:52:23
Sorry -- the combo worked at first and then I started not feeling well with it. Part of the problem is my reaction to the Xanax. The Effexor is working wonderfully, put I still have the panic attacks when I have to leave the house or deal with something unpleasant. The Xanax worked on the anxiety at first, until the Effexor dose was increased. Now Xanax just knocks me out leaves me with a terrible hangover feeling. I tend to get resistant to drugs really easy, or will start to develop some physical problem with them, my system is that touchy (I'm a Type II diabetic on top of everything else.) Anything upsets my system, and especially drugs.
I only use the Xanax for nights I'm having trouble falling asleep, and I switched from taking the Effexor at night to taking it in the morning. After he doubled the dose, I couldn't sleep, because the higher dose actually energizes me.
We'll see how it's going in another week or two.
Posted by spierson1253 on November 11, 2005, at 17:32:12
In reply to Re: Effexor XR vs. Paxil and weight gain, posted by jeminiwmn on November 11, 2005, at 16:25:52
No, I wouldn't ever use names or addresses. I just want specific statements from different people in their own words, so he can't tell me "it's all in my head" again. I really hate that.
Posted by tlryan21 on November 12, 2005, at 7:13:41
In reply to Re: Effexor XR vs. Paxil and weight gain » jeminiwmn, posted by spierson1253 on November 11, 2005, at 17:32:12
I for one, am happy to comply. I have gotten so tired of hearing that 'these are not side effects of effexor' that i could scream. I now know that is not the case.
I started 2.5 years ago on effexor, slowly, 37.5-75-150. I stopped after 3-4 months because I was so ill and slightly dizzy. I thought that it was because I had just bought a new car and was not used to the difference in views, since I was told that the med was not making me sick. So I was switched to Paxil. This did not work at all for me, so I ended back on effexor with 150mg my top dose, on that for roughly 1.5 years. Twenty five pounds weight gain, and very difficult getting if off. I am now down to a 75mg dose. If I miss a dose, or even take it 6 hours later, I am dizzy, nauseous and am just plain sick-sick-sick. I vomit constantly and am pretty much non-functional. During this time, the world seems very surreal to me and it takes about three days to get back to normal. Someone had mentioned vertigo or seasickness as a comparable feeling. YES IT IS!! I had also experienced severe teeth grinding in the night, and from reading some other entries feel this is a reaction from the med too. I also have Rheumatoid Arthritis and take celebrex, methotrexate and plaquenil for that. Every eight weeks I get a dose of Remicade. I had been on these others meds long before the effexor, so no, it's not them. Also, I can not drink coffee anymore, within an hour of having a cup, the seasick feeling comes on.
I still feel that effexor has been a great help to me and don't know where I'd be now without it in my life. My emotions are in check, I still feel things and can actually cry if I need to. I was worried about just being 'happy all the time' which I did not want. I hope this helps and I am also going to talk to my doctor about this, since the entire office seems to think that I am imagining this. They haven't seen me on the side of the road puking my guts out. You can quote me and if you have any other questions, I'd be more than happy to answer them. I am just so glad I am not the only one.> No, I wouldn't ever use names or addresses. I just want specific statements from different people in their own words, so he can't tell me "it's all in my head" again. I really hate that.
Posted by Mim on November 13, 2005, at 8:11:10
In reply to Re: Effexor XR vs. Paxil and weight gain » spierson1253, posted by tlryan21 on November 12, 2005, at 7:13:41
Hello,
I am so glad to hear about the collection of side effects. The little paper in the box has the side effects divided in three categories; ones that occure: often, sometime and seldom(I assume this is world wide, I am writing from Europe). Well, "often" include tense muscles, loss of appetite, and sleeplessness. "Seldom" included "de-regulating cycle" which is a vauge way to mention the menstral cycle...which everyone denies is possible. Well, I have been losing a little blood on and off for ages...no "cycle" whatsoever, and my delightful doctor reccomended I get a scan and find out why. He also told the gynocoligist that I was edgy about the constant loss of blood (like who wouldn't be??). Anyway, thanks for the information and support.
I am in a major dip again and all I can do is keep telling myself that it will pass one of these days. I just have to keep from making any major discisions (do not divorce,do not quite job, do not kill teenaged step-daughers or leave the country...just wait it out). It feels so good to know you understand this.
Please send me cyber patience and thanks for being yourselves!
Posted by SMMM on November 13, 2005, at 20:26:45
In reply to Re: Is there an anti-depressnt that WONT make me fat?, posted by hevvi1 on November 4, 2005, at 7:03:04
> I have been on Effexor xr for about 6 weeks now,and I must say it has killed my appetite and I have lost about 6 pounds already.People are starting to comment on the weight loss.I just don't pig out like I used to.I think its an effect of the drug rather than an effect of the way I feel now,as I can eat but only in very small portions.I feel full very quickly.I agree with the feelings about being happy to be alive.I too,feel that now for the first time in at least 3 years.I do have some side effects with Effexor,being the jaw clenching(I can deal with that now,its only right after I yawn,which is always when I wake up:same thing every morning, which is how I know its the Effexor),also I can't seem to reach orgasm as easily,I seem to get nearly there but can't quite get over the last bit,so to speak ,I CAN orgasm but it takes a lot of effort.I too wake up in the night.I take Effexor after my evening meal and I usually wake up around 2 or 3.I can relax and go back to sleep fairly easily.That said,although these might sound like a lot of problems,they are nothing in comparison to how much better I feel overall.Effexor has been a life saver for me,my family and my marriage.
I have the same problems with Effexor. I was constantly hot and wake up soaking wet. I had horrible headaches. I have the same trouble with sex and it's getting to the point that it's really affecting things. We're newlyweds!! I was extremely drowsy....actually I was exhausted. I also woke up during the night quite frequently even though I was on Trazadone (sleeping aid)!
Now, my doctor has put me on a lower dosage of the Effexor and started Wellbutrin. I've been friggin insane since I started the Wellbutrin. I have zero patience and my anxiety is out of control!!
Anyone have any suggestions???I recommend that you try taking the Effexor in the morning. You might sleep better at night.
Posted by hevvi1 on November 14, 2005, at 7:54:39
In reply to Re: Is there an anti-depressnt that WONT make me f, posted by SMMM on November 13, 2005, at 20:26:45
> > I have been on Effexor xr for about 6 weeks now,and I must say it has killed my appetite and I have lost about 6 pounds already.People are starting to comment on the weight loss.I just don't pig out like I used to.I think its an effect of the drug rather than an effect of the way I feel now,as I can eat but only in very small portions.I feel full very quickly.I agree with the feelings about being happy to be alive.I too,feel that now for the first time in at least 3 years.I do have some side effects with Effexor,being the jaw clenching(I can deal with that now,its only right after I yawn,which is always when I wake up:same thing every morning, which is how I know its the Effexor),also I can't seem to reach orgasm as easily,I seem to get nearly there but can't quite get over the last bit,so to speak ,I CAN orgasm but it takes a lot of effort.I too wake up in the night.I take Effexor after my evening meal and I usually wake up around 2 or 3.I can relax and go back to sleep fairly easily.That said,although these might sound like a lot of problems,they are nothing in comparison to how much better I feel overall.Effexor has been a life saver for me,my family and my marriage.
>
>
>
> I have the same problems with Effexor. I was constantly hot and wake up soaking wet. I had horrible headaches. I have the same trouble with sex and it's getting to the point that it's really affecting things. We're newlyweds!! I was extremely drowsy....actually I was exhausted. I also woke up during the night quite frequently even though I was on Trazadone (sleeping aid)!
> Now, my doctor has put me on a lower dosage of the Effexor and started Wellbutrin. I've been friggin insane since I started the Wellbutrin. I have zero patience and my anxiety is out of control!!
> Anyone have any suggestions???
>
> I recommend that you try taking the Effexor in the morning. You might sleep better at night.Thanks..I'm going to try taking it in the morning!!!!
Posted by spierson1253 on November 14, 2005, at 11:44:32
In reply to Re: Is there an anti-depressnt that WONT make me f, posted by SMMM on November 13, 2005, at 20:26:45
Now that I'm back on my HRT (girls only, sorry) I haven't had a problem with night sweats. However, I used to get cold really easy, and I would fight with S. over how hot it was (he would be dying). Now, I find myself turning off the heat and opening all the windows cuzz I'm so warm. Being unemployed with no income right now, keeping my electric/gas bill down is imperative, and this makes it so much easier. (People say, well, add more clothes. I hate winter because I hate being wrapped up in sweaters, and sweats, and long-sleeved anythings.)
As far as the appetite, I was told if I didn't put 2 lbs. on, I would be hospitalized with a tube down my throat. (I went from 179 lbs. to less than 110 lbs. in about 4 months.) I have no body fat now, and the doc says I'm living on my own body tissues now. The Effexor has actually given me an appetite. I get hungry and I want to eat. I only eat very small portions, but I eat like 6-8 times a day when I'm normal, because of non-insuling-dependent, Type II Diabetes.
In other words, Effexor works different on everyone. The side-effects all seem to fall into the same categories. The individual determines the "mix". It comes down to knowing your own body, and how to talk to your doctor (and they don't always know everything -- we've been talking about educating our doctors on the side effects they swear don't exist.)
Posted by TinMan on November 15, 2005, at 7:58:52
In reply to Re: Anyone had success on Effexor XR?, posted by jeminiwmn on November 11, 2005, at 15:52:23
> I'm sorry, but you have me a little confused. YOu said the combo seems to be a good mix for you and then you stated that you are having all this negativity? So I'm wondering is it good or not? I was just discussing this combo w/ someone else.
> Now I read this and I'm a little confused. Are you saying that you were getting bad and the new combo is making you better???
>
> Thanks-and I hope it's all positive for you.I tried the Wellbutrin/Effexor combo. After about 4 weeks, I noticed that I was getting irritable and anything could set me off. NOT GOOD. And the more Wellbutrin I got into my system, the more irritable and "hair trigger" I got. I understand that Wellbutrin is not a good recommendation for those with PTSD. That is part of what I am dealing with. Soooo, now I can honestly say that for me, Wellbutrin added to counteract the side effects of Effexor was not good.
I am back on 225 mg of Effexor with 7.5 mg of Remeron to sleep at night. I take two Effexor in the a.m. and one just before going to bed.
A lot of this seems to be trial and error. Listening to your body and working with your Dr. Because, we all are different! But not alone.
Posted by Mim on November 16, 2005, at 7:00:31
In reply to Re: Anyone had success on Effexor XR?, posted by TinMan on November 15, 2005, at 7:58:52
> > I'm sorry, but you have me a little confused. YOu said the combo seems to be a good mix for you and then you stated that you are having all this negativity? So I'm wondering is it good or not? I was just discussing this combo w/ someone else.
> > Now I read this and I'm a little confused. Are you saying that you were getting bad and the new combo is making you better???
> >
> > Thanks-and I hope it's all positive for you.
>
> I tried the Wellbutrin/Effexor combo. After about 4 weeks, I noticed that I was getting irritable and anything could set me off. NOT GOOD. And the more Wellbutrin I got into my system, the more irritable and "hair trigger" I got. I understand that Wellbutrin is not a good recommendation for those with PTSD. That is part of what I am dealing with. Soooo, now I can honestly say that for me, Wellbutrin added to counteract the side effects of Effexor was not good.
>
> I am back on 225 mg of Effexor with 7.5 mg of Remeron to sleep at night. I take two Effexor in the a.m. and one just before going to bed.
>
> A lot of this seems to be trial and error. Listening to your body and working with your Dr. Because, we all are different! But not alone.
>
What is PTSD?I take 150 mg in the am and 150 at 5 pm and I tend to wake up at 4am...but get back to sleep.
Does anyone notice an effect on the regularity or Irregularity of their menstral cycle?? (Or is that all stress again?).
This does make me feel less alone! thanks
Posted by TinMan on November 16, 2005, at 8:30:33
In reply to Re: Anyone had success on Effexor XR?, posted by Mim on November 16, 2005, at 7:00:31
Post Traumatic Stress Disorder - it is from being traumatized by war, abuse, rape, happenings of a violent nature.
I also have irregular periods. Some of it, is due to periomenopause, and some, I am sure, due to the Effexor. And I am taking a lose dose BC pill as HRT. I feel like my hormones are all over the charts anyway. Some nights, I have the night sweats, some days I get hot flashes.
The Wellbutrin seemed to make me edgy and irritable. It was great getting a libido back but when one is irritable and cranky, the libido isn't much good anyway.
I have BPD; a more significant type of PTSD. Paxil and Wellbutrin seem to make my "symptoms" worse.
Effexor helps a lot BUT I just don't know what it is like to wake up feeling, well, happy. I haven't felt that in a long, long time.
Posted by nana on November 16, 2005, at 11:11:32
In reply to Re: Anyone had success on Effexor XR?, posted by TinMan on November 16, 2005, at 8:30:33
Hey, I use to feel the same way about not waking up happy. I have been reading what other people say and decided to try taking it at night around 8:00. What a difference!! I am a different person in the morning. It worked for me. It took about 3 days for me to start seeing a difference. You might try it. Keep trying life is to short not to be happy. Take care!!
Posted by spierson1253 on November 16, 2005, at 11:27:23
In reply to Re: Anyone had success on Effexor XR?, posted by Mim on November 16, 2005, at 7:00:31
I don't know about it's effect on the menses cycle, as I've gone through menopause. (Skippee dippee doo!!!!) For those of you who are in the throes of menopause, or lucky like me to be done with it, make sure you are taking hormone replacement therapy. If not, the Effexor will worsen the symptoms. As soon as I got back on it, the night sweats and the restlessness went completely away. Now, if I could just sleep through the night. *sigh*
Posted by spierson1253 on November 16, 2005, at 11:33:27
In reply to Re: Anyone had success on Effexor XR?, posted by TinMan on November 16, 2005, at 8:30:33
Is it just my imagination, or does it seem that every poster who is taking Welbutrin along with Effexor seem to have problems with anger issues. The Effexor seems to be excellent at reducing if not eliminating the anger issues, but then the Wellbutrin seems to bring them right back again. (I'm not on Welbutrin, but I read all the postings. I want to make sure I'm on the right course with this theory, in case my dr. tries to prescribe it for me. He tends to look at me like I'm an idiot when I try to tell him that Effexor has side-effects, so I to have my facts straight before I go nose-to-nose with him.)
Posted by TinMan on November 16, 2005, at 12:18:20
In reply to Wellbutrin and Effexor, posted by spierson1253 on November 16, 2005, at 11:33:27
Tell your Dr. to go get his PDR off the shelf, dust it off and look up the 'Side Effects' of Effexor. (Physicians Desk Reference = PDR) They are all in there: the bruxism, dry mouth, insomnia, sweating, weight gain, weight loss, constipation, loss of libido, etc.
I had hoped that adding the Wellbutrin to my mix would help. It did to some degree but then I got so edgy, irritable, prone to rage. (Which, for those of you who know about BPD and PTSD, adding fuel to the rage fire can be a bit ugly.)
Also, there are many helpful websites that can give some sort of guidance as far as what drugs may work for you and your symptoms. I would use them as simply a reference.
Posted by spierson1253 on November 16, 2005, at 12:42:29
In reply to Re: Wellbutrin and Effexor, posted by TinMan on November 16, 2005, at 12:18:20
If all of this is in the PDR, then why in the heck does my doctor argue with me about my side effects? He swears up and down Effexor has none.
Posted by SandiDee on November 16, 2005, at 12:45:41
In reply to Re: Wellbutrin and Effexor, posted by TinMan on November 16, 2005, at 12:18:20
Just wanted to add my 2 cents worth about the Wellbutrin. I added Wellbutrin to combat the side effects of the effexor, it worked well, but I did have problems with my temper, explosions over little things. I wound up going back to my Dr. and asked for an increase in my effexor, she agreed. I am now on 225 effexor, and 150 wellbutrin, I take them both in the a.m., and tylenol pm at bed to sleep. This combo seems to be working well for me, though there are still some side effects that are annoying, the dry mouth, some headaches, and such. I also have the sweats, this is the worst of my side effects right now, I sweat horribly at times, mostly around my head and neck, often soaking my hair. Not sure what to do about that, I am 42, so this could possibly be peri-menopause, I don't know. Oddly enough, I sweat more when I am holding my 3 month old grandson, not gonna give that up though! :)
Posted by Mim on November 17, 2005, at 12:00:38
In reply to Re: Wellbutrin and Effexor, posted by TinMan on November 16, 2005, at 12:18:20
I assume BPD is borderline personality disorder and not bronchopulmonale dysplasie! (language issues). There is a more open culture about anti-depresive medication in the US than in Europe. I keep feeling like I have to defend my choice to continue on medication. The doctor I am seeing says that if I got a calmer job and had more free time....etc. pretty much ignoring the herreditary side of things (the family memebers who are all depressed of whom two have commited suicide...I guess they also had stressful jobs)
Posted by spierson1253 on November 17, 2005, at 13:15:53
In reply to Re: Wellbutrin and Effexor, posted by Mim on November 17, 2005, at 12:00:38
Finally! We've been discussing the side effects of Effexor and how our doctors (or mine at least) swear up and down there are no side effects. I had my presciption upped (75mg in the morning, 37.5mg at night, and Ambien CR 5.0-10.0mg at night), and this time the pharmacy at the Clinic printed me out an info sheet on the Effexor.
It listes the side effects THAT MY DOCTOR SWEARS UP AND DOWN DON'T EXIST. The are listed as follows:
POSSIBLE SIDE EFFECTS, that may go away during treatment, include drowsiness, dizziness, weakness, nausea, decreased appetite, dry mouth, constipation, change in sexual function, increased sweating, nervousness, or tremor. Contact your doctor as soon as possible if you experience: severe nervousness or anxiety, agitation, panic attacks, difficulty sleeping, feelings of irritability or hostility, impulsive behavior or other unusual changes in behavior, severe restlessness, worsening feeliings of depression, thoughts of hurting yourself, or any other mental or mood changes.
AND . . . I have problems with sleeping aids as I can only sleep for two hours on them, and then I wake up -- for the rest of the night. Without them I don't sleep at all, as I have one of those brains that never ever shuts down. Ambien now has a time-released capsule (Ambien CR) than may help those of you who can't sleep through the night. I'll be trying it for the first time tonight and will let you all know how it works.
Hope this helps . . . . .
Posted by spierson1253 on November 17, 2005, at 13:20:44
In reply to Re: Wellbutrin and Effexor, posted by Mim on November 17, 2005, at 12:00:38
Now that's just wrong. Why do people treat depression like it's a weakness instead of an illness? You stick to your guns and make sure you take care of you. I don't have a job right now, have plenty of spare time, and golly! the anxiety, depression, anger, and fear are still there. (The Effexor keeps me from acting out on this by screaming, crying, pacing, etc.)
Have you asked them to set you up with counseling to help? The meds don't work all by themselves. There is a reason for what's wrong (usually). Being pro-active in your own recovery is one good step towards good health.
Posted by Mim on November 18, 2005, at 2:16:22
In reply to Re: Wellbutrin and Effexor » Mim, posted by spierson1253 on November 17, 2005, at 13:20:44
Thank you!
Is there always a reason? I was getting counseling in the past, but actully there was no great major insight. I was a happy kid, and began getting depressed and destructive at around 18. I finally got on meds 7 years ago and all was fine, then my new doctor changed me over to effexor last year and all hell broke loose again (same job, same home etc.). I wish I COULD pinpoint a reason or an event, but I am beginning to think it is just a biochemical quirk in the system. It would probably make sence to get counseling though...in any event to learn not to act on the destructive impuses. Thanks again..and take care of yourself!
Posted by lostinazeroth on November 18, 2005, at 8:31:05
In reply to Re: Anyone had success on Effexor XR?, posted by nana on November 16, 2005, at 11:11:32
I've been taking effexor xr for about 2 and a half years. When i was prescribed it, I was 13 years old and i didn't think I was depressed. I still don't think that I should be taking this. When I first started taking it, I couldn't sleep at all, so they gave me sleeping pills. F*cking sleeping pills! According to the company website for effexor xr, teenagers run a very high risk of trying to kill themselves when they start taking it, especially if they are bipolar or someone in their family is. My mom is bipolar. and they gave me sleeping pills. I could have killed myself because of them. BUT, fortunately, I didn't try. I think it was because i wasn't depressed in the first place. whatever. Anyways, lately, I have been waking up with headaches and dizziness, the same way i felt when i hadn't taken my medicine, but i have been taking it. I really really hate it. another thing, I'm not a depressed person. Credit the medicine if you want, but I don't think it did any good.
Posted by spierson1253 on November 18, 2005, at 8:39:59
In reply to Re: Wellbutrin and Effexor, posted by Mim on November 18, 2005, at 2:16:22
If nothing else, counseling will help you recognize "triggers", those things will set off depression, anxiety, panic attacks. "Know thyself."
I found that Effexor does nothing against the shock of losing a friend. A friend of mine is a medically retired CHP officer, her husband is an active CHP officer. The CHP shot through the head during a routine traffic stop in Woodland, CA yesterday was a friend of ours. I didn't sleep all night. It was such a shock. I still have anxiety sitting on my chest this morning like a brick house. My [dumb] sister somehow became a sheriff's deputy, and I am now so scared for her. She's one of those who thinks a badge makes her impervious, and a gun always makes her right.
Posted by TinMan on November 18, 2005, at 19:01:51
In reply to Re: Wellbutrin and Effexor, posted by Mim on November 18, 2005, at 2:16:22
> Thank you!
>
> Is there always a reason? I was getting counseling in the past, but actully there was no great major insight. I was a happy kid, and began getting depressed and destructive at around 18. I finally got on meds 7 years ago and all was fine, then my new doctor changed me over to effexor last year and all hell broke loose again (same job, same home etc.). I wish I COULD pinpoint a reason or an event, but I am beginning to think it is just a biochemical quirk in the system. It would probably make sence to get counseling though...in any event to learn not to act on the destructive impuses. Thanks again..and take care of yourself!As far as Borderline Personality Disorder goes, clinical trials have been and are being performed. Apparently, it is both biological (genetic) and psychological. Something in the brain does not develop as it should. (The trials I read gave the technical name, I don't remember it.) Interesting, huh?
It is a lot like High Blood Pressure, Diabetes, Asthma, High Cholesterol - yes, there are some lifestyle choices that can be made differently to help with HBP, Diabetes, Asthma, HC, etc. HOWEVER, these diseases are physiological and can be helped dramatically by various medications. Right? There is no cure as of yet for these diseases.
NOW, we are fortunate to be in a time when phobias, anxiety/panic attacks, mental health disorders and diseases are being researched instead of being locked up and away in a "loony bin" somewhere. Sure, there is still a lot of stigma, but it is getting better.
And wouldn't it be so great if there was something that you, I and all could pinpoint?!?
I am still looking for the man behind the curtain!
~TinMan
Go forward in thread:
Psycho-Babble Medication | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.