![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 29. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by djmmm on July 17, 2005, at 15:21:23
an interesting article... (I OBVIOUSLY dont agree with it)...
from... http://www.huffingtonpost.com/theblog/
by Dr. Peter BregginThanks Tom Cruise
On June 25, July 2005 Tom Cruise did the unthinkable on TV. Actually, he did several “unthinkables” in a filmed interview with NBC’s Matt Lauer for the Today Show.
First, Tom stopped smiling. He deprived us of that multi-million dollar grin and got serious. For a star to do this to the American public was unthinkable.
Second, Tom pointed out that Matt Lauer actually was very “glib” (shallow) and didn’t know what he was talking about. He also urged Matt to be “more responsible” and to learn something about psychiatry before touting it. For a star to do this to a media personality was unthinkable. Since nearly all of them are shallow, this was a threat of potentially epidemic proportions. Suppose other guests began pointing out that media hosts don’t know what they are talking about and are shallow?
Third, he got serious about one of the most important issues in our personal lives, in this case our widespread use of psychiatric drugs to solve our personal distress and anguish. Tom concluded, “I’m passionate about life.” For anyone to speak this way on television, except perhaps on the Catholic channel, is truly beyond the TV pale; and even the Catholic channel doesn’t criticize psychiatry.
Fourth, he criticized psychiatry and drew attention to its genuine flaws and failings. I suspect he’s actually read my book, Toxic Psychiatry. Tom said that psychiatry had a long history of abusing people, including electroshock. He said, “There is no such thing as a chemical imbalance.” He said that antidepressants can only “mask the problem” and that “these drugs are very dangerous.” He called psychiatry a “pseudoscience” and suggested that there are better approaches. He was right about all of this.
A few days later NBC invited me to New York City as a psychiatric expert to discuss the Tom Cruise affair on the Today Show, and when I began by saying it sounded like Tom had been doing some serious reading about psychiatry, I got cut off, again and again, throughout the show.
Why was the media both drawn into the story and shocked by it? It was too good a story to simply ignore: “Tom Cruise Gone Wild” was the theme. It should have been, “Tom Cruise gets serious.”
The media would have liked to attack Tom on the grounds that he’s a Scientologist. Scientologists seem to share a number of views about psychiatry with me, including everything Tom said. In fact, I’d go further. Modern biological psychiatry is a materialistic religion masquerading as a science.
How can I say that my profession of psychiatry is a materialistic religion? Because modern psychiatry makes believe that psychological and spiritual problems, such as anxiety and depression, are caused by mechanical failures in the physical brain, and because psychiatry then attempts to correct these psychological and spiritual problems with physical interventions such as drugs and electroshock. Modern biological psychiatry takes these views and implements these interventions on faith and it has won a lot of converts with the help of billion-dollar marketing campaigns. If you want more detailed analyses of the faith and fake science behind the claims of modern psychiatry, you’ll find them in my books such as Toxic Psychiatry (1991), Brain-Disabling Treatments in Psychiatry (1997), Talking Back to Ritalin (Revised, 2001), the Antidepressant Fact Book (2001) and the Ritalin Fact Book (2002). You can find my scientific papers on my website, www.breggin.com. In my books and on the website you’ll also find discussions of the many drug-free alternatives that are available for helping people with problems such as anxiety and depression.The media kept hinting that the problem was Tom’s Scientology beliefs but they didn’t want to say it. To some extent it’s not politically correct to criticize someone’s religion, especially when people like Tom and John Travolta are members. But that was really not the issue. The media is afraid of Scientology because the religion has been extremely aggressive toward media critics, often charging them or threatening to charge them with libel and slander.
I was also invited on to CNBC’s the Donny Deutche talk show. This time I remained in Ithaca, New York only a few blocks from my office in a high tech TV studio. I was kept waiting in front of the live camera for almost an hour and a half to get a word in as I watched Tom get excoriated. Although I could see the show on the uplink for this entire time as I sat waiting at any moment to be called upon, they decided not to link me into the show at all and I never got to say a thing in Tom’s defense or in criticism of biological psychiatry, drugs and electroshock. Sitting upright that long without twitching in anticipation of momentarily appearing on millions of televisions was hard enough, but listening to Donny was worse.
While I sat listening to the CNBC show that I was never brought onto, I felt a mixture of outrage and sadness. Outrage that the show host Donny Deutche bragged up his work in advertising where he helped to produce the Zoloft TV ads with their clever little bouncing faces that made the antidepressant so much more “accessible,” in his words, to millions of Americans. Donny was bragging about an actual fraud—ads that falsely suggest that Zoloft corrects biochemical imbalances and that leave out the warning that the drug causes mania, not to mention psychosis, violence and suicide.
What was tragic? Donny’s guest was Jane Pauley who was flogging her new book, Out of the Blue. Jane is the epitome of a media personality, having anchored the Today Show with Tom Brokaw and Bryant Gumbel, and having earned many broadcast awards. Jane is also a promoter of psychiatry. She admitted to having developed “hypomanic” (milder than full-blown mania) symptoms on an antidepressant. At the time, she explained, her mind and thoughts were racing and she couldn’t control them. But then she added that of course the drug didn’t make her become manic; the drug just “brought out” her underlying or pre-existing bipolar disorder.
Of course, I don’t know anything about Jane Pauley except what she’s told us and she’s not really the issue. Celebrities are actively recruited by marketing departments to promote medical and psychiatric treatments. I do know that psychiatrists often lie to patients to protect themselves and their drugs. My colleagues lie by saying the antidepressant merely “brought out” their mania, psychosis, violence or depression, rather than the drug caused it in the otherwise innocent victim. Jane Pauley thinks she is a victim of bipolar disorder when she sounds to me like a victim of psychiatry.
It’s no small matter to falsely inform a person that their drug-induced mania shows they have bipolar disorder. It results in a false diagnosis and a stigmatizing label (bipolar or manic-depressive disorder) that follows people for the rest of their lives. It leads to additional medications, often including antipsychotic drugs like Zyprexa and Risperdal that can cause lethal diabetes and pancreatitis, and tardive dyskinesia, a potentially disfiguring and disabling neurological disorder characterized by bizarre-looking abnormal movements.So the media personalities had a feast promoting their religion, psychiatry, while Tom Cruise got hammered for criticizing psychiatry, and indirectly promoting his religion, Scientology.
No, I’m not a Scientologist. Except when they occasionally say hello to me at conferences, I have hardly spoken to a Scientologist in more than thirty years. But when I saw Tom’s bravery come out from behind his marvelous smile, I wanted to help, and I made clear I wanted to defend him.
Well, Tom, you said on TV things I’ve been saying in the media and in my books and scientific articles for three decades—but boy did you generate a lot more attention to the issues. Thanks!
Posted by Declan on July 17, 2005, at 15:40:58
In reply to Dr. Breggin on Tom Cruise, ritalin and psychiatry., posted by djmmm on July 17, 2005, at 15:21:23
Still, I liked Toxic Psychiatry. I suppose there is psychiatry as it is often practised and psychiatry as it could be (and sometimes is) practised.
Declan
Posted by linkadge on July 17, 2005, at 17:02:42
In reply to Re: Dr. Breggin on Tom Cruise, ritalin and psychiatry., posted by Declan on July 17, 2005, at 15:40:58
I am ashamed that I have to admit that I agree with some of what Breggin said.
"I do know that psychiatrists often lie to patients to protect themselves and their drugs. My colleagues lie by saying the antidepressant merely “brought out” their mania, psychosis, violence or depression, rather than the drug caused it in the otherwise innocent victim. Jane Pauley thinks she is a victim of bipolar disorder when she sounds to me like a victim of psychiatry.
It’s no small matter to falsely inform a person that their drug-induced mania shows they have bipolar disorder. It results in a false diagnosis and a stigmatizing label (bipolar or manic-depressive disorder) that follows people for the rest of their lives. It leads to additional medications, often including antipsychotic drugs like Zyprexa and Risperdal that can cause lethal diabetes and pancreatitis, and tardive dyskinesia, a potentially disfiguring and disabling neurological disorder characterized by bizarre-looking abnormal movements."
It is so true. My mother is the product of antidepressant induced mania, and lies.
Now she's on AP's lithium, depakote etc.
10 years ago everyone was depressed, now everyone has bipolar disorder.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on July 17, 2005, at 17:29:44
In reply to Re: Dr. Breggin on Tom Cruise, ritalin and psychiatry., posted by linkadge on July 17, 2005, at 17:02:42
Think of it this way. I read all the time of the psychiatric problems that can be caused by caffiene.
Would we prescribe an antianxiety agent for anxiety in a person where we knew caffiene was the primary cause? Of course not. We'd tell the individual to cut the caffiene.
Coffee can cause anxiety in anybody, if the dose is too high. Some people are more sensitive to this than others. Likewise antidepressant induced mania does not directly indicate bipolar disorder.
Linkadge
Posted by Declan on July 17, 2005, at 18:05:57
In reply to Re: Dr. Breggin on Tom Cruise, ritalin and psychiatry., posted by linkadge on July 17, 2005, at 17:29:44
I have a friend who was put on Zoloft. As she failed to improve the dose was raised again and again. The working address she gave out turned out to be the bar of the local hotel, where she lived during the day from opening to closing time to get some relief. She became convinced that the suburb where she lived was on fire, and was eventually admitted to a psych hospital where she was taken off Zoloft. Her madness went away.
The medical people were careful not to blame the Zoloft. There must be lots of stories like this.
What can you expect from onesizefitsall psychiatry?
Declan
Posted by Racer on July 17, 2005, at 18:11:02
In reply to Re: Dr. Breggin on Tom Cruise, ritalin and psychiatry., posted by Declan on July 17, 2005, at 18:05:57
> I have a friend who was put on Zoloft. As she failed to improve the dose was raised again and again. The working address she gave out turned out to be the bar of the local hotel, where she lived during the day from opening to closing time to get some relief. She became convinced that the suburb where she lived was on fire, and was eventually admitted to a psych hospital where she was taken off Zoloft. Her madness went away.
> The medical people were careful not to blame the Zoloft. There must be lots of stories like this.
> What can you expect from onesizefitsall psychiatry?
> Declan
I wouldn't call that "onesizefitsall" so much as "inadequate" or even "incompetent." Part of the initial psychiatric assessment should include finding out things like whether someone is drinking regularly. If the doctor didn't even work that out, well, that's a problem right there.Also, if your friend was asked and lied about her alcohol usage, that is also a problem -- GIGO, you know?
Just offering another view of the situation you described...
Posted by Racer on July 17, 2005, at 18:13:54
In reply to Re: Dr. Breggin on Tom Cruise, ritalin and psychiatry., posted by linkadge on July 17, 2005, at 17:29:44
>
> Would we prescribe an antianxiety agent for anxiety in a person where we knew caffiene was the primary cause? Of course not. We'd tell the individual to cut the caffiene.
>
> Coffee can cause anxiety in anybody, if the dose is too high. Some people are more sensitive to this than others. Likewise antidepressant induced mania does not directly indicate bipolar disorder.
>
>
> Linkadge
>You make a pretty good point, Link. I think, though, that most of the pre-marketing studies involving people with no history of either unipolar or bipolar disorders showed no mania? I think that's the difference: in "normal" people, the drugs don't induce mania, so if they induce mania, it's likely the individual was already vulnerable, thus likely bipolar. Make sense?
Still, it's a pretty good point, it's certainly something to think about, and it's a good analogy.
Thanks for the food for thought.
Posted by linkadge on July 17, 2005, at 18:39:17
In reply to Re: Dr. Breggin on Tom Cruise, ritalin and psychia » linkadge, posted by Racer on July 17, 2005, at 18:13:54
I hate to disagree but I will. I think the drugs have a way of growing on you. For instance, my mother developed mania on sinequan after about 10 months. The dose was slowly increased from 10mg to about 200mg.
Basically, she kept responding to a particular dose for about two weeks, and then it pooped out (although there was term poop out at the time).
If she was in a study, she would not have been reported to show any signs of mania.
People might not blame the drug because they say that if she was to develop mania it would be right away. But she was not on such a high dose right away. Its just like with coffee. 1-3 coffee calms me down, 4 cofee I am a little jittery, but by 8-9 coffee I am in a state of panic.
So again, I don't believe that antidepressant induced mania is a clear indicator of bipolar disorder.
Also remember that the drug companies do a lot to excuse their drugs, and the weird things that may result from them.
For instance, according to Lilly, that non-depressed girl who killed herself after withdrawing from cymbalta, had nothing to do with the drug.
Linkadge
Posted by so on July 17, 2005, at 22:24:30
In reply to Dr. Breggin on Tom Cruise, ritalin and psychiatry., posted by djmmm on July 17, 2005, at 15:21:23
Of course I agree with Breggan on much of what he says about psychiatry, but the following statement suggests a fundamental attribution error in addition to raising concerns about the propriety of the statement in the context of rules for this forum.
Breggin, from above:
>Since nearly all of them are shallow, this was a threat of potentially epidemic proportions. Suppose other guests began pointing out that media hosts don’t know what they are talking about and are shallowThe terms of service, or site FAQ, says:
>Please don't ... jump to conclusions about others, post anything that could lead others to feel accused or put down ... exaggerate or overgeneralize -- etc. ***Even if you're quoting someone else.***
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civilPlease consider that some of the people who frequent this site might be media personalities.
A conclusion that these people are shallow might be based on a fundamental attribution error which classifies behavior as a the result of a character trait rather than as a reaction to circumstances. They might be very deep thinkers who are constrained by their environment.
Posted by laurenjb on July 18, 2005, at 5:01:40
In reply to Re: Dr. Breggin on Tom Cruise, ritalin and psychiatry., posted by so on July 17, 2005, at 22:24:30
I'm surprised to be the sole contrarian thus far with regard to Dr. Breggin's comments, particularly as I recall a virulently anti-Tom Cruise thread from not too long ago.
First, I think it is true that anti-depressants and other meds are prescribed far too frequently as a panacea, an easy response to consumers who have seen/heard ads that tout happiness as being a pill away, and an ill-advised movement away from psychotherapy (esp. cognitive-behavioral) and toward 5 minute sessions of med management.
That being said, even though I have treatment-resistant major depression, have been on somewhere around 30 meds and had unsuccessful ect, I still believe that meds can provide much-needed relief from an often unbearable condition. I also think it is very dangerous to dismiss psychiatry and meds as a whole, just as it is dangerous to generalize about almost anything. I happen to have found a psychiatrist who insists on providing psychotherapy along with med management (remember when they used to do that?) and she has a much better understanding of my medical and psycho-social needs.
Finally, let's remember that Tom Cruise basically suggested taking vitamins and using will power to overcome mental disorders. We're all on this board for a reason - to share info about what does and doesn't work for us and not to lump ourselves into a "one size fits all" category. It definitely behooves us to remain open-minded about different theories about our diseases and even to maintain a healthy skepticism about psychiatry and particularly the pharmaceutical companies and their motivations, but, after doing EVERYTHING I can think of to control my disease, I find the best mode of treatment at the moment still to be meds and therapy, utilizing the framework of the INFORMED patient.
Thanks for listening to my rant! Lauren
Posted by Racer on July 18, 2005, at 14:05:49
In reply to Re: Dr. Breggin on Tom Cruise, ritalin and psychiatry., posted by laurenjb on July 18, 2005, at 5:01:40
>
> First, I think it is true that anti-depressants and other meds are prescribed far too frequently as a panacea, an easy response to consumers who have seen/heard ads that tout happiness as being a pill away, and an ill-advised movement away from psychotherapy (esp. cognitive-behavioral) and toward 5 minute sessions of med management.
>AHA! You just pointed out part of my own amorphous discomfort with a lot of contemporary psychiatry: that the meds are offered IN PLACE OF psychotherapy, rather than as an ADJUNCT TO psychotherapy. I could start banging my shoe on the table, and clamber aboard my soapbox regarding the culture and the HMOs and so on that brought this whole system about, but I think we can just consider that most of us here agree on that matter and skip the fireworks.
Virtually everything I've read says that the optimal treatment for mood disorders includes psychotherapy, whatever the model used. The only thing I've ever read that didn't say that the optimal treatment for depression was a combination of meds and therapy was a study that found that many people with mild depression did just as well with therapy alone as they did with both therapy and meds. I've yet to find a single study showing that meds alone work as well as a combination of meds and therapy -- and I don't expect I ever will.
That said, it kinda feels to me that the anti-psychiatric meds folks are drawing a line in the sand that specifically EXcludes combinations of meds and therapy; arguing against medications as if medications are ALWAYS offered INSTEAD OF therapy, rather than in combination with therapy. Makes a more sensational argument, but not, I think, more believable.
Posted by Ilene on July 18, 2005, at 15:52:08
In reply to Re: Dr. Breggin on Tom Cruise, ritalin and psychiatry., posted by laurenjb on July 18, 2005, at 5:01:40
> I'm surprised to be the sole contrarian thus far with regard to Dr. Breggin's comments, particularly as I recall a virulently anti-Tom Cruise thread from not too long ago.
>
> First, I think it is true that anti-depressants and other meds are prescribed far too frequently as a panacea, an easy response to consumers who have seen/heard ads that tout happiness as being a pill away, and an ill-advised movement away from psychotherapy (esp. cognitive-behavioral) and toward 5 minute sessions of med management.
>
> That being said, even though I have treatment-resistant major depression, have been on somewhere around 30 meds and had unsuccessful ect, I still believe that meds can provide much-needed relief from an often unbearable condition. I also think it is very dangerous to dismiss psychiatry and meds as a whole, just as it is dangerous to generalize about almost anything. I happen to have found a psychiatrist who insists on providing psychotherapy along with med management (remember when they used to do that?) and she has a much better understanding of my medical and psycho-social needs.
>
> Finally, let's remember that Tom Cruise basically suggested taking vitamins and using will power to overcome mental disorders. We're all on this board for a reason - to share info about what does and doesn't work for us and not to lump ourselves into a "one size fits all" category. It definitely behooves us to remain open-minded about different theories about our diseases and even to maintain a healthy skepticism about psychiatry and particularly the pharmaceutical companies and their motivations, but, after doing EVERYTHING I can think of to control my disease, I find the best mode of treatment at the moment still to be meds and therapy, utilizing the framework of the INFORMED patient.
>
> Thanks for listening to my rant! LaurenI agree with everything you said. I too have gone through a pharmacy worth of pills and do not respond to ECT. Unfortunately many people are forced by circumstances (e.g. inadequate health plans) to seek help from overworked or uncaring pdocs, so they feel forced into taking pills that don't work and have unpleasant side effects. The result is they blame the entire psychiatric profession for the failure of their psychiatrists to help them.
Most of my pdocs have been good people who tried hard to help me. Because I haven't responded to drugs for a long time doesn't mean that I've given up or that I blame psychiatry. I never got a lot from psychotherapy, either, but I'm willing to give it another go.
I'm glad that drugs are available, I don't regret having ECT, and I wouldn't want my options to be further restricted by someone else's opinions. I always have the option of saying "no" to a treatment.
I.
Posted by linkadge on July 18, 2005, at 17:51:06
In reply to Re: Dr. Breggin on Tom Cruise, ritalin and psychiatry. » laurenjb, posted by Ilene on July 18, 2005, at 15:52:08
Thats exactly it. There is good in psychiatry, and although Breggin, and Cruise make the occasional point, that does not give them the right to condemn the whole system.
Linkadge
Posted by ace on July 19, 2005, at 0:15:20
In reply to Dr. Breggin on Tom Cruise, ritalin and psychiatry., posted by djmmm on July 17, 2005, at 15:21:23
Posted by Iansf on July 19, 2005, at 0:39:27
In reply to Re: Dr. Breggin on Tom Cruise, ritalin and psychia » laurenjb, posted by Racer on July 18, 2005, at 14:05:49
I'm curious to know if you've actually been helped by psychotherapy. I certainly haven't been. I went to a string of psychotherapists with different methodologies over a period of more than 20 years and found no relief at all from my depression. On the other hand, four weeks after starting Prozac I discovered for the first time in my life what it meant to genuinely feel happy. Even though antidepressants have annoying side effects, I'll take them any day over psychotherapy, including cognitive therapy, because in my experience psychotherapy is virtually useless in treating serious mood disorders. As for using "will power" as Tom Cruise recommends, I've never known anyone to conquer a serious mood disorder with will power - in fact, people often end up feeling worse because they blame themselves (and often others blame them too) for not having sufficient will power. And vitamins? Well, if you go to the Psychobabble Alternatives board, you'll find people trying all sorts of vitamins and supplements, with minimal success. A few members report some relief with one supplemen or another (actually, usually a long list of supplements that ends up costing more than antidepressants), but most do not. My guess is that Tom Cruise has never experienced serious long-term depression or bi-polar disorder and consequently has no knowledge at all what it takes to overcome it. He's just spouting what he's been taught, not speaking from experience. As the saying goes, walk a mile in my shoes before deciding you know what's best for me.
> AHA! You just pointed out part of my own amorphous discomfort with a lot of contemporary psychiatry: that the meds are offered IN PLACE OF psychotherapy, rather than as an ADJUNCT TO psychotherapy. I could start banging my shoe on the table, and clamber aboard my soapbox regarding the culture and the HMOs and so on that brought this whole system about, but I think we can just consider that most of us here agree on that matter and skip the fireworks.
>
> Virtually everything I've read says that the optimal treatment for mood disorders includes psychotherapy, whatever the model used. The only thing I've ever read that didn't say that the optimal treatment for depression was a combination of meds and therapy was a study that found that many people with mild depression did just as well with therapy alone as they did with both therapy and meds. I've yet to find a single study showing that meds alone work as well as a combination of meds and therapy -- and I don't expect I ever will.
>
> That said, it kinda feels to me that the anti-psychiatric meds folks are drawing a line in the sand that specifically EXcludes combinations of meds and therapy; arguing against medications as if medications are ALWAYS offered INSTEAD OF therapy, rather than in combination with therapy. Makes a more sensational argument, but not, I think, more believable.
Posted by ace on July 19, 2005, at 0:52:15
In reply to Re: Dr. Breggin on Tom Cruise, ritalin and psychia ?Racer, posted by Iansf on July 19, 2005, at 0:39:27
Posted by Cecilia on July 19, 2005, at 3:16:52
In reply to Re: Pyschotherapy made me WORSE!!! It's poison! (nm) » Iansf, posted by ace on July 19, 2005, at 0:52:15
Psychotherapy made me worse too. (And cost a LOT of money). On the other hand, antidepressants have done nothing for me either, except give me a lot of side effects. Cecilia
Posted by Declan on July 19, 2005, at 5:12:16
In reply to Re: Dr. Breggin on Tom Cruise, ritalin and psychia » Racer, posted by Iansf on July 19, 2005, at 0:39:27
I did a lot of psychotherapy (psychoanalytic, Winnicott, that sort of thing) and clearly therapy of this sort can do nothing for serious mood disorders IMO. I have mixed feelings about it because I was very committed to the process, and still am in a sense. I do think it is a profoundly civilized and neccessary thing, but anyway you wouldn't want to be judging it from its results. (Better than that uninteresting and denatured CBT...IMO!!)
And of course ADs are cheaper than supplements. I won't embarrass myself by telling you what I spent on them last year.
In a similar post about Tom Cruise I said I was in favour of supplements, exercise and illegal drugs.
Maybe I'm just perverse or something.
Declan
Posted by DanielJ on July 19, 2005, at 8:01:14
In reply to Mood , Psychotherapy, Supplements, posted by Declan on July 19, 2005, at 5:12:16
Shame on these "Pseudo Experts" for broadcasting their views on subjects they do not understand. The ones who are outspoken about these subjects appear never to have dealt with them on a personal level. How many people with Schizophrenia and BiPolar Mania are living nearly normal lives because drugs like Zyprexa and Zoloft are available to them. Have those people ever gotten up in the middle of the night because their 15 year old son was wandering the neighbohood claiming to be "Gods Son"? Do they have any idea what real psychosis is? Violence, Delusions, Unreasoning anger and Hallucinations. Mr Cruise it's people like you that make it difficult for people with real mental problems to exist. Those naive fools that think that taking some vitamins or fish oil will cure Schizophrenia.
Posted by Racer on July 19, 2005, at 13:07:33
In reply to Re: Dr. Breggin on Tom Cruise, ritalin and psychia » Racer, posted by Iansf on July 19, 2005, at 0:39:27
> I'm curious to know if you've actually been helped by psychotherapy.
Yes, I have been. I've also been helped by psychotropic drugs. I certainly didn't want anyone to read that I advocated therapy instead of drugs, just that I think both are valuable -- especially in combination.
I do not believe that psychotherapy alone can resolve major depression. In my case, at least, I couldn't get anywhere in therapy until I went on anti-depressants and my depression went into remission. I do believe, though, that what I did in therapy helped me learn to manage my life and my reactions to events so that I could avoid triggering depressive episodes in some cases. Obviously, since I'm here, it's not 100% effective, but I still believe that therapy helps by both resolving certain internal difficulties and by teaching tools for resilience in the face of potentially triggering events. Without therapy, I would still believe that I was the cause of every bad thing that happened around me, that I was a sort of poison that was destroying my environment, that I deserved all the abusive behavior directed at me, that I had no right to object to bad treatment from others, and that suicide was the only humane solution. The anti-depressants helped remit the depression itself, but they really couldn't effect that sort of world view. Just as I was "taught" to see myself that way, through therapy, I could learn NOT to see my world that way. Make sense? Once I was able to change my perspective, I could see some my way around situations that might have triggered a major depressive episode for me in the past, and I was better able to speak up for my rights when they were being threatened.
>> As for using "will power" as Tom Cruise recommends, I've never known anyone to conquer a serious mood disorder with will power - in fact, people often end up feeling worse because they blame themselves (and often others blame them too) for not having sufficient will power.
Oh, boy! I agree with this one wholeheartedly. That whole "pull yourself up by your bootstraps, stop looking for a magic pill, you're just lazy" thing has a lot to do with how I learned that I must be the worst person on the planet! After all, I wasn't able to "snap out of it" as everyone around me kept telling me to do. That is very, very damaging, especially since so many of us do internalize that view.
>>My guess is that Tom Cruise has never experienced serious long-term depression or bi-polar disorder and consequently has no knowledge at all what it takes to overcome it. He's just spouting what he's been taught, not speaking from experience. As the saying goes, walk a mile in my shoes before deciding you know what's best for me.
>Why an actor thinks he's qualfied to discuss what's best for anyone is not something I can discuss, since all that will happen is that I'll pull off my shoe to start banging it on the table.
As for walking that mile? I can't walk a mile in your shoes, Ian, because I've got too many blisters from walking in my own. I have a long history of depression, which has only remitted when I've taken anti-depressants, and the recurrences of which have become more and more frequent when I've tried to go off the meds because of side effects. It's very hard for me to adjust to the idea of putting up with some of these side effects for the rest of my life -- some side effects are really horrible for me, even if the side effects you experience are worth it to you. I never meant to be understood as advocating therapy instead of medications -- I don't think that therapy alone can be effective for severe depression.
I do, however, think that a lot of people who are taking anti-depressants for mild depression could be effectively treated by therapy. A lot of those people are experiencing something that we wouldn't recognize as depression -- something much more likely to respond to changes in lifestyle and situation. I won't beat that drum, though. I'll just say, as clearly as I can, that I think medications are literally lifesavers for those of us with severe depression; and that therapy is a valuable adjunct to medications.
Posted by laurenjb on July 19, 2005, at 18:33:19
In reply to Re: Dr. Breggin on Tom Cruise, ritalin and psychia ? Iansf, posted by Racer on July 19, 2005, at 13:07:33
Racer: I have had very similar experiences. I was in therapy on and off for about 12 years without any significant change in my depression until I was finally started on meds and saw some improvement. I needed the meds to pull me enough out of the depression to see that there were alternative ways of thinking. Please let me emphasize that my previous post was only intended to share my own experience with treatment with meds plus therapy as what has worked for me (off and on) for major depression. For those of you with schizophrenia or bipolar or other diseases, I defer to your experience. I'd also like to say that I've had some pretty useless therapists (i.e. the ones who treated me during 12 years of severe depression without suggesting meds!) and that it's only worked for me because I have a good therapist and I work my butt off (which is NOT to suggest that those of you for whom therapy hasn't worked did not -- again, just stating my own experience). I feel that I am at a point where I have changed my perspective and done everything I can do to handle any situational sadness or anxiety -- it's up to the meds now, which, unfortunately, do not always play their role. Still, I find it very helpful to have a good, informed, compassionate psychiatrist who monitors my meds AND provides therapy. I wish the same for everyone and realize how lucky I am.
Take care, Lauren
> > I'm curious to know if you've actually been helped by psychotherapy.
>
> Yes, I have been. I've also been helped by psychotropic drugs. I certainly didn't want anyone to read that I advocated therapy instead of drugs, just that I think both are valuable -- especially in combination.
>
> I do not believe that psychotherapy alone can resolve major depression. In my case, at least, I couldn't get anywhere in therapy until I went on anti-depressants and my depression went into remission. I do believe, though, that what I did in therapy helped me learn to manage my life and my reactions to events so that I could avoid triggering depressive episodes in some cases. Obviously, since I'm here, it's not 100% effective, but I still believe that therapy helps by both resolving certain internal difficulties and by teaching tools for resilience in the face of potentially triggering events. Without therapy, I would still believe that I was the cause of every bad thing that happened around me, that I was a sort of poison that was destroying my environment, that I deserved all the abusive behavior directed at me, that I had no right to object to bad treatment from others, and that suicide was the only humane solution. The anti-depressants helped remit the depression itself, but they really couldn't effect that sort of world view. Just as I was "taught" to see myself that way, through therapy, I could learn NOT to see my world that way. Make sense? Once I was able to change my perspective, I could see some my way around situations that might have triggered a major depressive episode for me in the past, and I was better able to speak up for my rights when they were being threatened.
>
> >> As for using "will power" as Tom Cruise recommends, I've never known anyone to conquer a serious mood disorder with will power - in fact, people often end up feeling worse because they blame themselves (and often others blame them too) for not having sufficient will power.
>
> Oh, boy! I agree with this one wholeheartedly. That whole "pull yourself up by your bootstraps, stop looking for a magic pill, you're just lazy" thing has a lot to do with how I learned that I must be the worst person on the planet! After all, I wasn't able to "snap out of it" as everyone around me kept telling me to do. That is very, very damaging, especially since so many of us do internalize that view.
>
> >>My guess is that Tom Cruise has never experienced serious long-term depression or bi-polar disorder and consequently has no knowledge at all what it takes to overcome it. He's just spouting what he's been taught, not speaking from experience. As the saying goes, walk a mile in my shoes before deciding you know what's best for me.
> >
>
> Why an actor thinks he's qualfied to discuss what's best for anyone is not something I can discuss, since all that will happen is that I'll pull off my shoe to start banging it on the table.
>
> As for walking that mile? I can't walk a mile in your shoes, Ian, because I've got too many blisters from walking in my own. I have a long history of depression, which has only remitted when I've taken anti-depressants, and the recurrences of which have become more and more frequent when I've tried to go off the meds because of side effects. It's very hard for me to adjust to the idea of putting up with some of these side effects for the rest of my life -- some side effects are really horrible for me, even if the side effects you experience are worth it to you. I never meant to be understood as advocating therapy instead of medications -- I don't think that therapy alone can be effective for severe depression.
>
> I do, however, think that a lot of people who are taking anti-depressants for mild depression could be effectively treated by therapy. A lot of those people are experiencing something that we wouldn't recognize as depression -- something much more likely to respond to changes in lifestyle and situation. I won't beat that drum, though. I'll just say, as clearly as I can, that I think medications are literally lifesavers for those of us with severe depression; and that therapy is a valuable adjunct to medications.
Posted by DanielJ on July 19, 2005, at 21:12:49
In reply to Re: Dr. Breggin on Tom Cruise, ritalin and psychia » Racer, posted by laurenjb on July 19, 2005, at 18:33:19
I guess rather than rant as in my previous post I should explain my own opinions about the gray areas which surround depression and other mental illnesses.
There is depression that can be brought on by losing your job, the death or loss of a friend or loved one. The same category might include financial woes or some other form of negative life experience. I believe that this level of problem could be treated sucessfully with counseling and or therapy and that medications need not enter into these scenarios which are part of the normal ups and downs of life.
Traumatic experiences represent a higher level of disturbance of normal routines. We can say bad automobile accidents, shocking developments in one's life, being a victim of rape or a crime of violence, combat experiences and other serious psychological trauma probably requires Therapy and very possibly medication(s) depending on the seriousness and the persistence of the event(s). In most cases however the if treatment is successful, at aome point it may no longer be necessary.
The last would be Schizophrenia, Bipolar and Major depression in vaious forms. It is here therapy and countinued medication is usually necessary and I would like non sufferers to understand that. These conditions normally don't magically disappear. The use of certain food supplements may aid in treatment along with proper diet but without the important medications success is not likely.The great news is with the above regimen I believe success is very likely. Bless the new AP's and AD's for the relief they offer. They are
not infallible, and they must be prescribed properly and used properly by the patient. With these new tools, the quality of life that was unfairly ripped away from those who didn't deserve to lose it, can return.
Posted by ace on July 19, 2005, at 22:48:42
In reply to Re: Pyschotherapy made me WORSE!!!, posted by Cecilia on July 19, 2005, at 3:16:52
> Psychotherapy made me worse too. (And cost a LOT of money). On the other hand, antidepressants have done nothing for me either, except give me a lot of side effects. Cecilia
Which tells me you need to try a new one!!!
Don't give in...
I recommend Nardil!!!
Also Parnate!
Many combinations too, I can tell you about!
Ace
Posted by ace on July 21, 2005, at 1:08:23
In reply to Re: Subjects That are Controversial and Stars!, posted by DanielJ on July 19, 2005, at 8:01:14
> Shame on these "Pseudo Experts" for broadcasting their views on subjects they do not understand. The ones who are outspoken about these subjects appear never to have dealt with them on a personal level. How many people with Schizophrenia and BiPolar Mania are living nearly normal lives because drugs like Zyprexa and Zoloft are available to them. Have those people ever gotten up in the middle of the night because their 15 year old son was wandering the neighbohood claiming to be "Gods Son"? Do they have any idea what real psychosis is? Violence, Delusions, Unreasoning anger and Hallucinations. Mr Cruise it's people like you that make it difficult for people with real mental problems to exist. Those naive fools that think that taking some vitamins or fish oil will cure Schizophrenia.
Very well put. Tom Cruise does not understand biochemical depression, cause he has been blessed enough to have a brain which is not pre-disposed to it.I went through the whole Breggin/Szasz antipsychiatry thing....I believed them stupidly and stopped all meds....within 6 weeks I was in UTTER HELL...i had to withdraw from university, and was so anxious and scared that I could not walk outside my front door. The depression almost killed me. And NOTHING EXCEPT GOING BACK ON THE MEDS HELPED. CBT was a joke. All therapy I tried was a joke. I was in hell, and the meds saved me.
Shame on Tom Cruise.
Ace.
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