![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 7 to 31 of 61. Go back in thread:
Posted by hok on February 4, 2003, at 15:39:10
In reply to Re: Try Enada (NADH)! Absolutely incredible stuff, posted by hok on February 4, 2003, at 15:27:25
Ron,
please disregard my last post. I just now read your link and it answered my previous questions.
I have one more for you though: Like Ame Sans Vie, I am taking the Enada version of 5mg per day. You mentioned you were taking 10mg of the quick-dissolve variety. So I guess my question is whether you tried both kinds and if you've seen a difference in efficacy b/t the two (dosing differences aside).
Posted by Ron Hill on February 4, 2003, at 18:55:30
In reply to Re: Try Enada (NADH)! ...whoops...nevermind, posted by hok on February 4, 2003, at 15:39:10
>You mentioned you were taking 10mg of the quick-dissolve variety. So I guess my question is whether you tried both kinds and if you've seen a difference in efficacy b/t the two (dosing differences aside).
-----------------------------Hok,
So far I have only used the sublingual formulation. I plan to switch to the enteric coated tablets in about a month or so, but for the time being I want to continue with what is currently working.
As I see it, there are advantages and disadvantages for both the sublingual (ENADAlert NADH) and the enteric coated tablets (ENADA NADH). Both forms have the same active ingredient (reduced B-nicotinamide adenine dinucleotide). The difference is in the delivery pathway.
It is important to remember that NADH is destroyed by the acids in the stomach. Therefore, the down-the-hatch ENADA NADH tablets are enteric coated to protect them from stomach acids and, thereby, allow the NADH to make it to the intestines where it can be absorbed into the bloodstream. People vary in their ability to absorb nutrients (in this case NADH) through their intestinal walls.
The delivery pathway for the sublingual ENADAlert NADH is directly to the bloodstream through the thin membrane at the bottom of the mouth under the tongue. Please note, however, that a portion of the ENADAlert NADH dose is destroyed in the stomach when the patient (unavoidably) swallows saliva containing NADH.
The sublingual administration causes blood levels of NADH to escalate quickly then drop off. By contrast, the down-the-hatch administration has a slower, more gradual elevation of blood levels.
ENADAlert NADH is marketed as a product to alleviate jet lag and to minimize the effects of sleep deprivation. I’ve read that the sublingual product should not be used on an on-going basis as a substitute for the down-the-hatch ENADA NADH. They did not say why.
-- Ron
Posted by Ame Sans Vie on February 4, 2003, at 20:27:54
In reply to Re: ENADA NADH » Ame Sans Vie, posted by Ron Hill on February 4, 2003, at 15:08:36
Wow, I'm so glad to hear the NADH is helping you.
I made the decision to try it based on studies pointing to dopamine being largely responsible for social phobia; lo and behold, 8 days after my first dose, I feel downright outgoing. I'm not irritable anymore-- it's hard to make me mad. Christ, I used to have to take 3-4 20mg Inderal per day just to control my temper!
I take the enteric coated 5mg tablets myself, I wasn't aware of a sublingual form... I'll look for it next time I'm at Vitamin World (which is only every other day, lol).
Just curious, have you ever given a 5mg/day dosage a trial run? Just wondering; I've thought about it (purely for financial reasons), but then I don't want to lose all I've gained by taking the full 10mg per day.
I really need to read more into Enada... I'll check out all of those links on your former posting. Thanks for informing me of your experience, and all the best to you!
--Michael
Absinthium the Hoerte mara fond growan maciant.
Posted by Ame Sans Vie on February 4, 2003, at 20:31:51
In reply to Re: Try Enada (NADH)! Absolutely incredible stuff, posted by hok on February 4, 2003, at 15:27:25
Actually, the 5mg tablets are indicated to be taken twice daily; I've never come across the sublingual variety.
I KNOW this wasn't placebo effect (believe me, it was far too powerful), but after my first dose I felt like a brand-new human being (of course, YMMV). I know that sounds a bit a grandiose way of speaking of it, but that's how I felt. And I've only been on it eight days-- it just keeps getting better and better.
--Michael
Posted by Ame Sans Vie on February 4, 2003, at 20:33:38
In reply to Re: Try Enada (NADH)! ...whoops...nevermind, posted by hok on February 4, 2003, at 15:39:10
I'd be interested in hearing about that too... I wonder what the difference of NADH absorption is between gastrointestinal and sublingual?
--Michael
Posted by Ame Sans Vie on February 4, 2003, at 20:36:04
In reply to Re: Enada NADH - Sublingual vs Enteric Coated Tabs » hok, posted by Ron Hill on February 4, 2003, at 18:55:30
lol, well I guess that answered my questions.
--Michael
Posted by hok on February 6, 2003, at 12:02:30
In reply to Re: ENADA NADH » Ron Hill, posted by Ame Sans Vie on February 4, 2003, at 20:27:54
this stuff really works. I've been taking the 5mg oral version in the morning. I've been combining it with 500 mg of tyrosine. I think I'm going to stop the l-tyrosine because when i took it on its own, it didn't do much.
going to give the NADH a few more days at 5mg and then going to try 10mg to see what effect it has.
I read somewhere that you shouldn't take any acids (Vit C, B5, malic acid, juice) at the same time as the NADH, since the acid can breakdown the NADH. You should wait at least 2-3 hours before taking them. This is bad news for me since I like to take Vit C and B5 (pantothenic acid) first thing in the morning as well. Oh well, the NADH is definitely having the greatest effect so far.
I hope there isn't a big tolerance that one builds up to this though. That's the only thing I'm worried about at this point.
Hope to report more progress in the days to come.
HOK
Posted by johnj on February 7, 2003, at 20:07:19
In reply to Re: Enada NADH - Sublingual vs Enteric Coated Tabs » hok, posted by Ron Hill on February 4, 2003, at 18:55:30
Hi Ron,
Sorry to hear about your depression. I am happy that your wife appears to be a great support for you. It must be the year for depressions to return. I have had a depressive episode that gave me little relief since before Christmas. But, about a month ago I went back to my TCA, lithium, and upped my benzo a bit. I may just have to try some NADH. I am also thinking of giving 5-HTP a try too. I am waiting for cymbalta to come out so I can give it a try. Lexapro trial caused so much anixety I had to give it up and I was just a zombie on it.
Only one good piece of news. About 3 weeks before the FE exam I started sleeping well. Had a anxious night before the exam, but I PASSED the damn thing. So happy to get that done. But, after the test my sleep went out of whack. Very odd??? I sometimes wonder how I get throught the day at work. I work for the government so it is easy to hide some when I feel like crud. Keep us posted on NADH, I may have to give it a go. I hope Colin is doing well. Take care
johnj
Posted by colin wallace on February 8, 2003, at 5:28:10
In reply to Hello RON HILL, posted by johnj on February 7, 2003, at 20:07:19
> Hi Ron,
>
> Sorry to hear about your depression. I am happy that your wife appears to be a great support for you. It must be the year for depressions to return. I have had a depressive episode that gave me little relief since before Christmas. But, about a month ago I went back to my TCA, lithium, and upped my benzo a bit. I may just have to try some NADH. I am also thinking of giving 5-HTP a try too. I am waiting for cymbalta to come out so I can give it a try. Lexapro trial caused so much anixety I had to give it up and I was just a zombie on it.
>
> Only one good piece of news. About 3 weeks before the FE exam I started sleeping well. Had a anxious night before the exam, but I PASSED the damn thing. So happy to get that done. But, after the test my sleep went out of whack. Very odd??? I sometimes wonder how I get throught the day at work. I work for the government so it is easy to hide some when I feel like crud. Keep us posted on NADH, I may have to give it a go. I hope Colin is doing well. Take care
> johnjHey there John...and Ronald me old pal too!!
I haven't checked in for a few weeks, and missed Ron's cameo appearance.Not that your exile to Kazhakstan meant you haven't been missed Ron, but I'd hoped your depression was taken care of for good!May have to banish you to somewhere more exotic....
John, I can empathise there with your taking a tumble after your FE;this happened to me too the year before last when I(stupidly) took some punishing IT exams whilst still very ill.Afterwards my depression slammed in with a vengeance(I think adrenaline gets you through, and then afterwards...wham!)
I'd been doing fine on Lamictal when I was in control of my dosage, but now I'm forced to rely on my GP, things have slid-I reached 100mg and intended to keep climbing at 25mg weekly.She (and the psych. she gets her info. from) refused to play, and kept me at 125mg for a month, despite my resigned sigh that that would only result in my downfall.It did, and badly.
I lost all my gains, and even though I've recently hit 175mg, I'm struggling to get it back together.Winter here is killing me.
Every single time in the past three years I've been forced to rely on a doctor, and go against my own instincts, I've ended up very unwell at best.Really ***** me off!!
So, I'm once again going it alone, and will take myself up to perhaps 250mg/300 max. to claw back my gains.Feeling better already since I hit my (unauthorized) 175mg.This will cost me a fortune.
Anyway, enough griping,keep your peckers up guys, and seeya soon.Col. *_-
Posted by johnj on February 8, 2003, at 12:12:24
In reply to Re: Hello RON HILL, posted by colin wallace on February 8, 2003, at 5:28:10
Like I said to Ron, it must be the year since it seems we all have had trouble around X-mas/January. I STILL can't work out and when I start to feel good I have to push it a bit and end up feeling like crap. I so miss my body sweating and energizing me after a good workout. The only thing I can do is YOGA! They have a free class at our apartment complex and it has been kind of fun, but hard not to watch the women stretching in from of me;)
I decided to head up to the university alternative medicine and look into acupuncture and few other things. It can't hurt and reminds me of what I should have been doing when I was living in Japan besides chasing the native babes.
I did have a real strange day last Sunday. I usually feel like crap or pretty decent, but that day I was totally numb and void of feeling. It only lasted one day but I was baffled. Not sure if I would have that or anxiety!
I had a very bad time reducing my TCA and after 3 days I felt like hell. And that was only from 50 to 40 mgs. It was very damaging to my feeling that I have at least some control of my mood. I feel like I am wired to norttryptline and that is upsetting to say the least.
Interesting about the exam you mentioned. I did not sleep well after the exam and when I was an undergrad I would have had a beer and slept for 12 hours. It took me a full week to calm down and I then reduced my benzo for 2 months until I started having trouble again. I am awaiting cymbalta in the hope that it will allow me to get off the TCA. I am still puzzled why the TCA and working out do not match and I wish a doctor could explain the possibilites. The only thing I come up with is that the side effect profile lists excercis and heat as enhancing dizziness, etc. And I know that is true. Cymbalata seems similiar to a TCA/Effexor so hopefully it will be the med I can tolerate.
I wish you the best in the lamcital titration and hopefully this year will bring us all some health and restoration. How is the training going?
PS. I have found almost any alcohol can mess me up for a few days, so sad. I miss my guinness!! When the truck drives by that shows the progression of it being poured into a glass I have a hard time not chasing it down!
Take careJohnj
Posted by catmint on February 8, 2003, at 23:27:42
In reply to HI COLIN, Good to hear from you » colin wallace, posted by johnj on February 8, 2003, at 12:12:24
Hi Colin,
I was wondering how you were doing. It's good to hear from you. Sorry to hear about what happened, but it sounds like you are doing better now.
Have you thought about St. Johns Wort or perhaps this new dopamine enhhancer NADH? Are you taking fish oil?
I am currently on 40 mg. of Lamictal and rising. I really do need something at night to deal with the irritability, I want to try Klonopin but everyone I talk to is warning me not too. What do you think? Are you still on diazapam? Do you notice a tolerance to it? Do you ever feel addicted to it?
Sometimes I hate being dependent on chemicals to make me feel normal. I can sympathise with the previous poster about the Guiness truck, I occasionally fantasize about the days when I used to drink a couple pints and feel great! (A little too great!)
Hope to hear from you,
Amy
Posted by colin wallace on February 11, 2003, at 12:08:26
In reply to Re: HI COLIN, Good to hear from you, posted by catmint on February 8, 2003, at 23:27:42
Hi there Amy,
Yes I have clawed back most of my gains in a very short time(four days)after quickly increasing my dose to 200mg.All my increases past 100mg have been absolutely fine.I took a big decision a few days back,and added some Prozac to my regimen,as opposed to climbing the lamictal ladder any further.I took a 20mg pill (yup, a whole 20mg!) and within hours I noticed that it actually felt good-quite mild, and with no agitation whatsoever.Guess it's true about(some of) those who've been unable to tolerate any AD's being able to do so when Lamictal is in place.Previously, 5mg Prozac was enough to send me way over the edge, almost instantaneously.
I'm going to take 20mg on alternate days, and see how it goes.So far so good.
I realize this is a risky gamble for me, but to get through this winter without relapsing badly, I felt the Lamictal needed a boost.Mood and stability are very good despite all (oh for a glimpse of blue sky!)and starting work in a few weeks too.
One thing to remind yourself of when dealing with the irritability- sometimes this indicates a dose increase is needed, and if it is,it should stop you sliding very soon.
As for the benzo's, I still take just 3mg of Diazepam, and have never needed to raise this tiny dose in a year or so-no tolerance etc.
It's been a lifesaver.Oh, and diving into the odd barrel of Guinness is a bonus too.
Take care,Col
Hi Colin,
> I was wondering how you were doing. It's good to hear from you. Sorry to hear about what happened, but it sounds like you are doing better now.
> Have you thought about St. Johns Wort or perhaps this new dopamine enhhancer NADH? Are you taking fish oil?
> I am currently on 40 mg. of Lamictal and rising. I really do need something at night to deal with the irritability, I want to try Klonopin but everyone I talk to is warning me not too. What do you think? Are you still on diazapam? Do you notice a tolerance to it? Do you ever feel addicted to it?
> Sometimes I hate being dependent on chemicals to make me feel normal. I can sympathise with the previous poster about the Guiness truck, I occasionally fantasize about the days when I used to drink a couple pints and feel great! (A little too great!)
> Hope to hear from you,
> Amy
Posted by catmint on February 11, 2003, at 23:11:55
In reply to Re: Lamictal Update , posted by colin wallace on February 11, 2003, at 12:08:26
Colin,
Are you taking generic prozac? Some say there is a difference between Prozac and generic fluoxetine. What is your experience?
Of all the ADs, I had a good response the first time I took it with Neurontin, but on it's own, well I needn't say more.
I might consider adding it to Lamictal down the road, who knows.
Yesterday I bought some Enada NADH, which I heard about on this board. It is supposed to increase dopamine six fold. I did notice a boost in energy and overall good mood, even less anxiety. I'ts quite pricey, but from what I have read about it, I'm going to continue.
I feel for you Brits, and all that rain you have to live with. Here in N. Cali. we have spells of gray that last for about 5 or 6 days. I hate that color.(I'm reminded of that song by Counting Crows --You know gray is my favorite color... he sings. Ok!Whatever!
Have you considered a light box?
Colin, how often do you drink? From my experience, Lamictal and booze are a bad combo. Depression almost always follows the next day after more than half a glass.Good to hear from you,
Amy
Posted by Ron Hill on February 13, 2003, at 0:26:53
In reply to Hello RON HILL, posted by johnj on February 7, 2003, at 20:07:19
Hi John,
Sorry to take so long to get back to you, John. When I was reading up on NADH three weeks ago, I thought of you right away. NADH (coenzyme 1) serves many functions in the human body, one of which is its involvement with ATP for energy production within the cells. I don't know if ENADA NADH would help you with your workout problems, but it might be worth your time to do some reading on the subject and/or buy some and try it.
ENADA NADH is kind of expensive (about $2/day at the recommended dose of 10 mg/day), but it would not cost too much for just one box as a trial. A corporation named Nenuco holds the patents for the stabilized absorbable form of NADH called ENADA NADH. Nenuco licenses the product to various distributors (e.g. GNC, Source Naturals, etc.) so you can buy it under various name brands at most nutritional stores.
The product is available in a 5 mg enteric coated "down-the-hatch" tablet (to be taken twice daily) and a 10 mg sublingual tablet called ENADAlert NADH. For athletic performance enhancement, I've read that the sublingual formulation should be taken about an hour before the workout. John, this stuff might not help you at all. I don't know. But, as I already said, you came to mind when I was reading about NADH, so I thought I'd pass along the information.
As you know, I'm taking it for its AD effects. I started by taking 10 mg/day of the sublingual formulation. Initially, the AD effects were profound. However, after about two weeks the 10 mg/day sublingual dose began to make me irritable. Therefore, I switched from the sublingual tablets to the "down-the-hatch" tablets. The later seems to have a smoother and longer acting duration. However, I can currently only take one 5 mg tablet per day, otherwise I get irritable. It's a catch-22 because about six hours after taking my first 5 mg tablet for the day, my brain wants a second dose, but if I take a second dose I get irritable.
John, if you have an interest in NADH, check out the links I put in the bottom of my original post, http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20030204/msgs/139361.html , and/or enter "NADH" in your search engine. The first article in my list of links is written by Dr. Edmund Burke of US Cycling Team fame.
I congratulate you for your success in passing the FE exam. It's a tough test. Good job, John.
-- Ron
------------------------------------> Hi Ron,
>
> Sorry to hear about your depression. I am happy that your wife appears to be a great support for you. It must be the year for depressions to return. I have had a depressive episode that gave me little relief since before Christmas. But, about a month ago I went back to my TCA, lithium, and upped my benzo a bit. I may just have to try some NADH. I am also thinking of giving 5-HTP a try too. I am waiting for cymbalta to come out so I can give it a try. Lexapro trial caused so much anixety I had to give it up and I was just a zombie on it.
>
> Only one good piece of news. About 3 weeks before the FE exam I started sleeping well. Had a anxious night before the exam, but I PASSED the damn thing. So happy to get that done. But, after the test my sleep went out of whack. Very odd??? I sometimes wonder how I get throught the day at work. I work for the government so it is easy to hide some when I feel like crud. Keep us posted on NADH, I may have to give it a go. I hope Colin is doing well. Take care
> johnj
Posted by Ron Hill on February 13, 2003, at 0:38:16
In reply to Re: Lamictal Update , posted by colin wallace on February 11, 2003, at 12:08:26
Hi Colin,
Happy to hear about the new job. Best Wishes!
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I remember my friend Colin shouting from the roof tops that he would never touch another SSRI. What's up with adding Prozac to your Lamictal?
Good to hear from you, Colin.
-- Ron
---------------------------------
> Hi there Amy,
>
> Yes I have clawed back most of my gains in a very short time(four days)after quickly increasing my dose to 200mg.All my increases past 100mg have been absolutely fine.I took a big decision a few days back,and added some Prozac to my regimen,as opposed to climbing the lamictal ladder any further.I took a 20mg pill (yup, a whole 20mg!) and within hours I noticed that it actually felt good-quite mild, and with no agitation whatsoever.Guess it's true about(some of) those who've been unable to tolerate any AD's being able to do so when Lamictal is in place.Previously, 5mg Prozac was enough to send me way over the edge, almost instantaneously.
> I'm going to take 20mg on alternate days, and see how it goes.So far so good.
> I realize this is a risky gamble for me, but to get through this winter without relapsing badly, I felt the Lamictal needed a boost.Mood and stability are very good despite all (oh for a glimpse of blue sky!)and starting work in a few weeks too.
> One thing to remind yourself of when dealing with the irritability- sometimes this indicates a dose increase is needed, and if it is,it should stop you sliding very soon.
> As for the benzo's, I still take just 3mg of Diazepam, and have never needed to raise this tiny dose in a year or so-no tolerance etc.
> It's been a lifesaver.Oh, and diving into the odd barrel of Guinness is a bonus too.
>
>
> Take care,
>
> Col
Posted by colin wallace on February 13, 2003, at 4:31:07
In reply to Re: Lamictal Update » colin wallace, posted by Ron Hill on February 13, 2003, at 0:38:16
> Hi Colin,
>
> Happy to hear about the new job. Best Wishes!
>
> Correct me if I'm wrong, but I remember my friend Colin shouting from the roof tops that he would never touch another SSRI. What's up with adding Prozac to your Lamictal?
Hey there Ron ol' buddy,You are right;when in the throes of Zoloft madness, I did swear I'd never, ever go near an SSRI again!And Lamictal has been(unavoidable cliche)well, nothing short of miraculous.
Trouble is I've hit 200mg, and although I could probably getaway with doubling this, my best guess is that it will need augmenting at some point-it does have a tendancy to fade for a lot of people.
I'm having a rough time, as always,this winter, and want to build up some solid resilience before next year.The Prozac thing came about one day when the weather had been really foul(gales etc) for weeks, and even Lamictal couldn't fend off the crash(although it greatly reduced it).I had a few brand Prozac in a drawer,and no Lamictal left, and I recklessly threw one down my neck.I always liked the 'feel' of Prozac, but it would, of course, destabilize me badly-nothing like Zoloft though.Anyway,with Lamictal firmly in place, I seemed to get all the *good* feeling from Prozac, without the instant agitation, erratic swings etc.
And as someone else mentioned, Lamictal gives you much more latitude to experiment with AD's due to the underlying stability it provides.
I was planning on adding the TCA Lofepramine anyway, but I'll carefully test out the Lamictal/Prozac combo. first.Any sign of anger/instability, and in the bin it goes!
I have, by the way, reduced the dose to a sprinkle, as this seems sensible.
I can (and may well yet) easily switch to a low dose TCA at any time.
Glad you're getting results from this new NADH venture- if we hadn't bankrupted ourselves with Sam-e, I might have considered joining you!!Keep us posted Ron,
and stay well.Col.
Posted by Ron Hill on February 13, 2003, at 12:09:37
In reply to Re: Lamictal Update » Ron Hill, posted by colin wallace on February 13, 2003, at 4:31:07
Colin,
Last summer I thought you had found the solution to your brain chemistry issues with Lamictal. I was hoping that at least one of us was "fixed". What kinds of symptoms are causing you to feel the need to add an SSRI or TCA?
What is your dx according to your current pdoc? It is a pdoc you are seeing, correct? What is your dx according to Colin? Is it possible that there is a bipolar II component in your dx? I ask this because I am of the firm belief that BP II patients should not take SSRI's nor TCA's without a moodstabilizer fully in place and even with a moodstabilizer I personally don't think SSRI's or TCA's have efficacy over the long run in BP II patients. Please check out Dr. James Phelps' web site and find the links that discuss his stance on this issue. Also, check out the links he provides on the subject. I think he is right-on with regard to this issue. Bottom line: Dr. Phelps is of the opinion that MAOI's are typically the best class of ADs for BP II patients. He also has a BP II questionnaire on his site. If you want, you can fill out the questionnaire and score the results. Here is the link to his web site:
http://www.psycheducation.com/
I don't know if you are BP II, but as I've told you before, I've always suspected that you have some BP II component in your dx. My opinion is based primarily on your reaction to SSRI's (without moodstabilizer) and that at times you have cycled into a dysphoric mood state. I could be all wet on this Colin. Take it for what it is; a friend offering his layman opinion in hopes of being able to help.
-- Ron
------------------------------------------> > Hi Colin,
> >
> > Happy to hear about the new job. Best Wishes!
> >
> > Correct me if I'm wrong, but I remember my friend Colin shouting from the roof tops that he would never touch another SSRI. What's up with adding Prozac to your Lamictal?
>
> Hey there Ron ol' buddy,
>
> You are right;when in the throes of Zoloft madness, I did swear I'd never, ever go near an SSRI again!And Lamictal has been(unavoidable cliche)well, nothing short of miraculous.
> Trouble is I've hit 200mg, and although I could probably getaway with doubling this, my best guess is that it will need augmenting at some point-it does have a tendancy to fade for a lot of people.
> I'm having a rough time, as always,this winter, and want to build up some solid resilience before next year.The Prozac thing came about one day when the weather had been really foul(gales etc) for weeks, and even Lamictal couldn't fend off the crash(although it greatly reduced it).I had a few brand Prozac in a drawer,and no Lamictal left, and I recklessly threw one down my neck.I always liked the 'feel' of Prozac, but it would, of course, destabilize me badly-nothing like Zoloft though.Anyway,with Lamictal firmly in place, I seemed to get all the *good* feeling from Prozac, without the instant agitation, erratic swings etc.
> And as someone else mentioned, Lamictal gives you much more latitude to experiment with AD's due to the underlying stability it provides.
> I was planning on adding the TCA Lofepramine anyway, but I'll carefully test out the Lamictal/Prozac combo. first.Any sign of anger/instability, and in the bin it goes!
> I have, by the way, reduced the dose to a sprinkle, as this seems sensible.
> I can (and may well yet) easily switch to a low dose TCA at any time.
> Glad you're getting results from this new NADH venture- if we hadn't bankrupted ourselves with Sam-e, I might have considered joining you!!
>
> Keep us posted Ron,
> and stay well.
>
> Col.
Posted by colin wallace on February 13, 2003, at 13:12:17
In reply to Re: Lamictal Update, posted by Ron Hill on February 13, 2003, at 12:09:37
Ron,
I have without doubt found the solution to my mood disorder with Lamictal.I don't set much store by the diagnosis put forward by the junior UK NHS psych. I finally got to see last year.I don't want to get into that here, but a bipolar spectrum diagnosis was 'possible' although recurrent major depression was also a firm favourite.To me personally, bipolar11 is plain
for all to see(I use a rigorous criterion here, as I don't believe in needlessly throwing bipolar labels around which some people tend jump on).Wildly erratic mood swings, bitter,deep,dysphoric and severe depressions,with amplified and worsened swings and hypomania(dysphoric)brought on by AD's...need I continue.Oh yeah, and relief at last with a sound mood stabilizer.I also fully agree with Dr Phelp's take on this subject.(his site confirmed my suspicions long ago-that's why I chose Lamictal.However.....
If I lived in a country that wasn't permanently carpeted in filthy grey cloud(?!), then I wouldn't even remotely consider adding an AD.But I don't, and get so badly affected by the weather that it sends me into an awful, sickening depression within weeks.Lamictal, though miraculous, ain't miraculous enough to conjure up sunshine!!At some point, I'll need an AD,not this summer,but I'll need to get one in place by next winter- I may as well get used to it, as I have no choice in the matter.Ps. I have no doctor-I treat myself, and that's why I'm doing exceptionally well *_-
Also, your take on the subject is always welcome, and I agree with all you say.Your ol' pal,
Col.
Last summer I thought you had found the solution to your brain chemistry issues with Lamictal. I was hoping that at least one of us was "fixed". What kinds of symptoms are causing you to feel the need to add an SSRI or TCA?
>
> What is your dx according to your current pdoc? It is a pdoc you are seeing, correct? What is your dx according to Colin? Is it possible that there is a bipolar II component in your dx? I ask this because I am of the firm belief that BP II patients should not take SSRI's nor TCA's without a moodstabilizer fully in place and even with a moodstabilizer I personally don't think SSRI's or TCA's have efficacy over the long run in BP II patients. Please check out Dr. James Phelps' web site and find the links that discuss his stance on this issue. Also, check out the links he provides on the subject. I think he is right-on with regard to this issue. Bottom line: Dr. Phelps is of the opinion that MAOI's are typically the best class of ADs for BP II patients. He also has a BP II questionnaire on his site. If you want, you can fill out the questionnaire and score the results. Here is the link to his web site:
>
> http://www.psycheducation.com/
>
> I don't know if you are BP II, but as I've told you before, I've always suspected that you have some BP II component in your dx. My opinion is based primarily on your reaction to SSRI's (without moodstabilizer) and that at times you have cycled into a dysphoric mood state. I could be all wet on this Colin. Take it for what it is; a friend offering his layman opinion in hopes of being able to help.
>
> -- Ron
> ------------------------------------------
>
Posted by colin wallace on February 13, 2003, at 15:48:18
In reply to HI COLIN, Good to hear from you » colin wallace, posted by johnj on February 8, 2003, at 12:12:24
Hey there John,
Yes it does seem like this has been the winter of discontent for us three!My exercise program has been brought to a virtual standstill by the weather too-besides the seasonal depressive dip I have some arthritic problems that worsen in the cold/damp- just whiz along mindlessly on my indoor bike right now, music blaring, imagining a sunny alpine landsacpe(sad or what..) !!
I've always fancied the idea of yoga,even though I'm as stiff as a plank(despite stretching every day)but the women where I live look like Klondike arm-wrestlers, so the leotard thing ain't really an incentive...
Tried acupuncture last year, and I have to say it really works-but you need to do it regulary, and it can be expensive.Think I'll go back for more actually.
As for Japan, well, I lived in Thailand for a few years,so I don't know what you mean at all..?)
See you're still having problems ditching the TCA...thought about maybe switching to a noradrenergic one like desipramine?-may be easier than an ssri switch, and I found Lofepramine(similar to Desipramine)much easier to live with whilst exercising than Amitryptaline.Then again, Cymbalta may do the trick-who knows eh?
I'm still torn between adding a low dose AD to my Lamictal, or just ramping up the Lamictal dose(or both!)
The joys of meds.Keep plugging away,
Col.
. I STILL can't work out and when I start to feel good I have to push it a bit and end up feeling like crap. I so miss my body sweating and energizing me after a good workout. The only thing I can do is YOGA! They have a free class at our apartment complex and it has been kind of fun, but hard not to watch the women stretching in from of me;)
>
> I decided to head up to the university alternative medicine and look into acupuncture and few other things. It can't hurt and reminds me of what I should have been doing when I was living in Japan besides chasing the native babes.
>
> I did have a real strange day last Sunday. I usually feel like crap or pretty decent, but that day I was totally numb and void of feeling. It only lasted one day but I was baffled. Not sure if I would have that or anxiety!
>
> I had a very bad time reducing my TCA and after 3 days I felt like hell. And that was only from 50 to 40 mgs. It was very damaging to my feeling that I have at least some control of my mood. I feel like I am wired to norttryptline and that is upsetting to say the least.
>
> Interesting about the exam you mentioned. I did not sleep well after the exam and when I was an undergrad I would have had a beer and slept for 12 hours. It took me a full week to calm down and I then reduced my benzo for 2 months until I started having trouble again. I am awaiting cymbalta in the hope that it will allow me to get off the TCA. I am still puzzled why the TCA and working out do not match and I wish a doctor could explain the possibilites. The only thing I come up with is that the side effect profile lists excercis and heat as enhancing dizziness, etc. And I know that is true. Cymbalata seems similiar to a TCA/Effexor so hopefully it will be the med I can tolerate.
>
> I wish you the best in the lamcital titration and hopefully this year will bring us all some health and restoration. How is the training going?
>
> PS. I have found almost any alcohol can mess me up for a few days, so sad. I miss my guinness!! When the truck drives by that shows the progression of it being poured into a glass I have a hard time not chasing it down!
> Take care
>
> Johnj
Posted by johnj on February 14, 2003, at 8:31:46
In reply to Re: HI COLIN, Good to hear from you » johnj, posted by colin wallace on February 13, 2003, at 15:48:18
Hey Colin,
Sorry about the confusion regarding Japan. I was just musing that if I would have paid more attention to my body and kept in balance such as working out, trying acupuncture for stress while living in Japan I might not have had the panic attack followed by the depression. I worked too much and then partied way to hard and it caught up with me. I remember looking at myself in the mirror one morning and thinking "how long can I do this?" I didn't know it was my mind that was going to give up. Therefore, when I saw the university has an alternative medicine section that included acupunture it made me think of the things I could/should have done better while living abroad.
I too was suprised to see you knocking back some prozac, but if it helps I say what the hell. Good luck on the new job! That might do some wonders for you too. I may try another TCA, I will have to look up the side effect profile. I have to eat lots of fiber. I wish cymbalta would hurry up and come out. Have a good one
johnj
Posted by colin wallace on February 14, 2003, at 8:41:28
In reply to Re: HI COLIN, Good to hear from you » colin wallace, posted by johnj on February 14, 2003, at 8:31:46
> Hey Colin,
>
> I worked too much and then partied way to hard and it caught up with me. I remember looking at myself in the mirror one morning and thinking "how long can I do this?" I didn't know it was my mind that was going to give up. > johnjThat's what I meant too John!!When I said I didn't know what you meant, I meant I was doing exactly the same as you- probably worse too- and with the same end result! :)
Fun while it lasted though...
Posted by colin wallace on February 14, 2003, at 9:10:23
In reply to Re: Lamictal + Prozac, posted by catmint on February 11, 2003, at 23:11:55
Hi Amy,
>> Are you taking generic prozac? Some say there is a difference between Prozac and generic fluoxetine. What is your experience
I'm taking a small amount of brand Prozac-I definitely noticed a difference way back when I tried a generic version.I know that some bipolar11's can get away with, and get results from a pinch of Prozac with Lamictal.Any AD carries a risk of inducing hypomania/cycling for us though, and MAY worsen the long term course of the illness.Tough call...
>> I might consider adding it to Lamictal down the road, who knows
Wait and see whether I go nuts or not first!!
>>Yesterday I bought some Enada NADH..
Yeah, this stuff's interesting..I'll watch you and Ron's progress with interest.
>> Here in N. Cali. we have spells of gray that last for about 5 or 6 days. I hate that color.
Here we get fleeting spells of sunlight that last about five or six days(per year!)That's what really pushes me towards hypomania(it happened recently) and slams in the depression.I don't look good in grey either..still,Spring's coming...
>> Have you considered a light box?
Colin, how often do you drink? From my experience, Lamictal and booze are a bad combo. Depression almost always follows the next day after more than half a glass.I keep promising myself a lightbox, but with me I think the low barometric pressure is just as much at fault as the lack of sunlight-caves my head in after a few weeks.
And you're right, Lamictal and booze don't really mix- I don't drink often nowadays, and I've always suffered monster hangovers when I do;
Drank lots of Guiness over Christmas though, and didn't feel too bad overall.But it's definitely time to switch to shandy(what would you Americans call a glass of mostly lemonade with a small amount of beer??Probably something unprintable!!
Posted by Ron Hill on February 17, 2003, at 12:47:40
In reply to Re: Lamictal + Prozac » catmint, posted by colin wallace on February 14, 2003, at 9:10:23
Colin,
Is depression continuing to be a problem for you? Are you continuing to use a pinch of Prozac as an add-on to your Lamictal and benzo?
Because you're my friend, I have a personal interest in seeing you become fully well and staying that way. Your dx and mine are similar as are our responses to various meds. Therefore, an Rx that works for one of us might work for the other.
As a result of my recent three-month bout with a crippling atypical depressive episode, I have made a list of classes of medications and specific medications within those classes that I may try if ENADA NADH stops working. It's best for me to do my research when I'm non-symptomatic because, if I wait until I'm depressed, the lack of motivation and loss of energy makes it very difficult for me to do my homework. My list is very much in keeping with the APA Guidelines for the Treatment of Bipolar Disorder issued in April 2002.
Last week I met with my pdoc to discuss my list. He and I are in general agreement. Irritability (flash rage) and atypical depression (low motivation, anhedonia, low energy, and hypersomnia) are the two mood states that I am attempting to target with the meds on my list. SSRIs, SNRIs, and TCAs are DEFINITELY NOT on my list.
Currently, however, I’m in the fourth week of my ENADA NADH trial and so far it is treating both my atypical depression and my irritability remarkably well. It took a little trial-and-error to figure out the correct dose. Ironically, if I take too high of a dose it actually induces irritability. It’s still way too early in the trial to be making predictions regarding its long-term effectiveness, but I’ll tell you what Colin, it is currently working remarkably well. My motivation is back, my energy is up, my love of life has returned, I’m not sleeping all the time, and I’m no longer a rage-alcoholic. Needless to say, my wife prefers the “new and improved me”.
I’m currently taking one 5 mg enteric coated ENADA NADH tablet each morning. I started out taking 10 mg/day, but that turned out to be too high of a dose. When I initially cut back to 5 mg/day, one tablet provided complete relief of my symptoms for only about six hours. And if I took a second 5 mg tablet halfway through the day, I became irritable. Now, however, the one tablet in the morning provides effective relief throughout the entire day.
Colin, I’d like to bounce ideas back and forth with you about things to try for your depression, but I do not want to impose. So I’ll wait to hear back from you with your approval instead of just dumping my opinions on you.
-- Ron
---------------------------------------> Hi Amy,
>
> >> Are you taking generic prozac? Some say there is a difference between Prozac and generic fluoxetine. What is your experience
>
> I'm taking a small amount of brand Prozac-I definitely noticed a difference way back when I tried a generic version.I know that some bipolar11's can get away with, and get results from a pinch of Prozac with Lamictal.Any AD carries a risk of inducing hypomania/cycling for us though, and MAY worsen the long term course of the illness.Tough call...
>
> >> I might consider adding it to Lamictal down the road, who knows
>
> Wait and see whether I go nuts or not first!!
>
> >>Yesterday I bought some Enada NADH..
>
> Yeah, this stuff's interesting..I'll watch you and Ron's progress with interest.
>
> >> Here in N. Cali. we have spells of gray that last for about 5 or 6 days. I hate that color.
>
> Here we get fleeting spells of sunlight that last about five or six days(per year!)That's what really pushes me towards hypomania(it happened recently) and slams in the depression.I don't look good in grey either..still,Spring's coming...
>
> >> Have you considered a light box?
> Colin, how often do you drink? From my experience, Lamictal and booze are a bad combo. Depression almost always follows the next day after more than half a glass.
>
> I keep promising myself a lightbox, but with me I think the low barometric pressure is just as much at fault as the lack of sunlight-caves my head in after a few weeks.
> And you're right, Lamictal and booze don't really mix- I don't drink often nowadays, and I've always suffered monster hangovers when I do;
> Drank lots of Guiness over Christmas though, and didn't feel too bad overall.But it's definitely time to switch to shandy(what would you Americans call a glass of mostly lemonade with a small amount of beer??Probably something unprintable!!
>
Posted by Ron Hill on February 17, 2003, at 13:22:31
In reply to Re: Lamictal + Prozac, posted by catmint on February 11, 2003, at 23:11:55
> Yesterday I bought some Enada NADH, which I heard about on this board. It is supposed to increase dopamine six fold. I did notice a boost in energy and overall good mood, even less anxiety. I'ts quite pricey, but from what I have read about it, I'm going to continue.
---------------------------Amy,
It's been about a week since you posted the above information and I'm wondering if you could give us a progress report regarding the effectivemess/ineffectiveness of your Enada NADH trial? Thanks.
-- Ron
Posted by Ron Hill on February 17, 2003, at 13:32:45
In reply to Try Enada (NADH)! Absolutely incredible stuff, posted by Ame Sans Vie on February 1, 2003, at 18:51:41
Michael,
Are you still taking Enada NADH? If not, what prompted you to discontinue? If yes, please give us a status report regarding your experience with the supplement thus far. Thanks.
-- Ron
---------------------------> I read in one study that 204 depressed people treated with NADH *all were 'much' or 'very much' improved. I'm not that depressed, but I do suffer from hypersomnia quite often... and besides, I wanted to see what a gentle dopamine boost would be like for my AvPD. Bottom line, been taking it for just over a week now and absolutely amazed with the results. Complete lack of side effects is a plus too.
>
> --Michael
> Cogito ergo sum pullum.
Go forward in thread:
Psycho-Babble Medication | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.