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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 48 to 72 of 98. Go back in thread:
Posted by harry on April 7, 1999, at 1:26:14
In reply to Re: IS ANYBODY LISTENING?, posted by v on April 6, 1999, at 20:43:38
agree with v...why would anyone want "people to think about staying on their meds and not worrying so much about how they look"...since the way we think and feel are part and parcel OF depression.
In fact, this kind of attitude aimed at, and internalized by people, CAUSES depression.
That's scarey terry.
Posted by Terry on April 7, 1999, at 12:22:37
In reply to Re: IS ANYBODY LISTENING?, posted by harry on April 7, 1999, at 1:26:14
Harry -- Listen, can you not understand that people who are helped by their medications psychologically should consider staying on them, despite weight gain? I'm not saying people shouldn't acknowledge their feelings or their depression! I'm simply saying that from my own experience, it's more important for me mentally and emotionally to be helped by the Depakote I take than to get off the Depakote and lose weight. I'd rather be fat and feel better. Please stop berating me for what I'm saying because it makes perfect sense to me. I can understand how horrible weight gain is, because I've been through it, but it's nothing compared to the hell of untreated bipolar disorder. I exercise, I eat right, and still I gain weight. It's out of my control, I'm trying to be healthy, and that's the best I can do. Many of the postings I've seen on this thread about weight gain have been about stopping medications because of people's concern about weight gain. Don't you agree that's not a good idea? Terry
> agree with v...why would anyone want "people to think about staying on their meds and not worrying so much about how they look"...since the way we think and feel are part and parcel OF depression.
> In fact, this kind of attitude aimed at, and internalized by people, CAUSES depression.
> That's scarey terry.
Posted by mary on April 7, 1999, at 16:03:17
In reply to Re: IS ANYBODY LISTENING?, posted by v on April 6, 1999, at 20:43:38
v:
I just came off of effexor in March having started in November,1998. In that short time, I regained 23 of the 26 pounds it had taken me 16 months prior to lose(and I stil had thirty more to go). Im on celexa now and it doesn't look any better (up two more pounds) nor is my mood improved. Good luck. Everybody's differenet.
Note to Terry: If I'm going to be fat and sad on meds because Im not helped mood-wise, I'd rather be sad and thin till i wish i were dead and then i'll try the meds again but after a while whats the use? weight comes on (That part works) and there's no relief!!! I read here hoping I'll get some glimmer of something that will help. I hope you understand what i'm trying to say to you. good luck.
Harry -- Sorry to offend. I'll get off my high horse and just say that I want people to think about staying on their meds and not worrying so much about how they look. Theresa
>
began (as a direct result of my depression), i seem to be having alot of trouble getting the weight off despite feeling better - which is unusual for me
>
> thanks for listening
>
> v
Posted by v on April 7, 1999, at 17:55:05
In reply to Re: IS ANYBODY LISTENING?, posted by mary on April 7, 1999, at 16:03:17
> I just came off of effexor in March having started in November,1998. In that short time, I regained 23 of the 26 pounds it had taken me 16 months prior to lose(and I stil had thirty more to go). Im on celexa now and it doesn't look any better (up two more pounds) nor is my mood improved. Good luck. Everybody's differenet.
mary:
thanks for replying... i hope it all works out for you.
i've only been on effexor for about 5 months. i'm giving it another couple of weeks and then will probably taper off. as it needs to be done slowly anyway, i'm hoping that i may start losing the weight at a lower dose BUT i am still afraid of the eventual weight gain that so many have written about. i actually only even tried it because i had been assured that weight gain would be an unlikely side effect... :(and it's a shame too, as the effexor really seems to help
but for me fat and happy is a contradiction in terms... polar opposites in my life
like you said, everyone's different... i don't expect everyone to feel as i do - but i don't think i should be expected to feel like anyone else either
i said it before, we all deserve to feel better... but without having to compromise ourselves in the process... if we stop tolerating what is intolerable, maybe they'd come up with something that worked... or am i only dreaming...
my dreams are sometimes all i have...
v
Posted by Terry on April 7, 1999, at 22:04:58
In reply to Re: IS ANYBODY LISTENING?, posted by v on April 7, 1999, at 17:55:05
I'm sorry to have offended so many people with my postings on weight gain and psychotropic drugs. This will be my last posting on PsychoBabble, and I won't be checking in anymore for responses, so please don't send any more negative messages my way. Good luck to all. Terry
> > I just came off of effexor in March having started in November,1998. In that short time, I regained 23 of the 26 pounds it had taken me 16 months prior to lose(and I stil had thirty more to go). Im on celexa now and it doesn't look any better (up two more pounds) nor is my mood improved. Good luck. Everybody's differenet.
>
> mary:
> thanks for replying... i hope it all works out for you.
> i've only been on effexor for about 5 months. i'm giving it another couple of weeks and then will probably taper off. as it needs to be done slowly anyway, i'm hoping that i may start losing the weight at a lower dose BUT i am still afraid of the eventual weight gain that so many have written about. i actually only even tried it because i had been assured that weight gain would be an unlikely side effect... :(
>
> and it's a shame too, as the effexor really seems to help
>
> but for me fat and happy is a contradiction in terms... polar opposites in my life
>
> like you said, everyone's different... i don't expect everyone to feel as i do - but i don't think i should be expected to feel like anyone else either
>
> i said it before, we all deserve to feel better... but without having to compromise ourselves in the process... if we stop tolerating what is intolerable, maybe they'd come up with something that worked... or am i only dreaming...
>
> my dreams are sometimes all i have...
>
> v
Posted by Dr. Bob on April 8, 1999, at 0:29:20
In reply to Re: IS ANYBODY LISTENING?, posted by harry on April 6, 1999, at 12:11:38
Hi, everyone,
Please remember to try to be civil. You may disagree with what someone said, but take a minute and read it over again. Maybe there's a kernel of truth, at least, to what they said. That's an advantage of an online forum; you have time to think through what to say.
People here are either in need of support, or trying to provide support, or both. It doesn't help any of them to be treated disrespectfully.
Bob
Posted by v on April 8, 1999, at 6:31:18
In reply to Re: IS ANYBODY BEING CONSIDERATE?, posted by Dr. Bob on April 8, 1999, at 0:29:20
> Please remember to try to be civil. You may disagree with what someone said, but take a minute and read it over again. Maybe there's a kernel of truth, at least, to what they said. That's an advantage of an online forum; you have time to think through what to say.
>
> People here are either in need of support, or trying to provide support, or both. It doesn't help any of them to be treated disrespectfully.actually, i am surprised that anything i wrote would have offended anyone - i deliberately reiterated the point that we're all different and that i begrudge noone their stance
i never meant to hurt anyone's feelings... but it angers me that because i am managing to stay (yes, i too, feel the risk of posting here and can be oversensitive about responses), i am being called on the carpet for expressing myself... so should i leave too?
i have written terry privately and truly hope she decides to stay - i don't want to leave here either but i'm angry and hurt.
it's often very hard for me to reach out to this forum... now i wonder... oh, what's the use of trying to explain...
Posted by harry on April 8, 1999, at 8:30:53
In reply to Re: IS ANYBODY BEING CONSIDERATE?, posted by v on April 8, 1999, at 6:31:18
Being "brought to task" in regards to the effects of one's words and actions is an ESSENTIAL part of GROWING UP.
All to often i see postings in "support forums" that allude to the idea that "support" means expressing kindly sweet remarks regardless of the
context of anothers writing/actions.
This is life without accepting PAIN as an intergral part of the learning process...and..is IMHO....a recipe to psychopathology.A great part of "recovery", eg:change and development as a person..is recognizing our OWN selfishness and self-centeredness..and acting in a way that will reduce and eliminate these actions and traits.
And...this is true in every instance i have ever seen, in myself and others (exceptions include genuine "spiritual" revelation)....."SELFISHNESS and SELF-CENTEREDNESS respond ONLY to THEIR OWN PAIN"....NEVER to that of others.
Attempting to dispense with this ESSENTIAL aspect of life...hearing that certain actions we take are INJURIOUS to self and others....is insanely self-serving...and ends up with a dead friend, family memeber, and loved one.....who thinks WE are "SO NICE".
TRUE LOVE invloves DISCIPLINE.
It effects life to "cease and desist" action that causes pain and sufefering to self and others.
And gives us the divine space to reevaluate ourselves.Does it hurt?..You bet. It hurts when we get any "abscess" drained. And then a sense of healing and well being ensue.
The other way..we get an ever increasing "abscess" the pain of which can only be relieved by greater and greater amounts of medication...while the "patients" relives the "pressure" by expressing its contents everywhere they go.
Posted by harry on April 8, 1999, at 8:39:41
In reply to Re: IS ANYBODY BEING CONSIDERATE?, posted by v on April 8, 1999, at 6:31:18
BTW..i think "v"'s posting are excellent...express where she is at..how she is feeling..and the effects anothers actions have on her.
THIS is a basic ability leading to being a healthy adult.
Posted by Nancy on April 8, 1999, at 11:15:54
In reply to Re: IS ANYBODY LISTENING?, posted by Terry on April 7, 1999, at 12:22:37
Harry has not been advocating stopping one's meds just to "lose weight".
> Harry -- Listen, can you not understand that people who are helped by their medications psychologically should consider staying on them, despite weight gain? I'm not saying people shouldn't acknowledge their feelings or their depression! I'm simply saying that from my own experience, it's more important for me mentally and emotionally to be helped by the Depakote I take than to get off the Depakote and lose weight. I'd rather be fat and feel better. Please stop berating me for what I'm saying because it makes perfect sense to me. I can understand how horrible weight gain is, because I've been through it, but it's nothing compared to the hell of untreated bipolar disorder. I exercise, I eat right, and still I gain weight. It's out of my control, I'm trying to be healthy, and that's the best I can do. Many of the postings I've seen on this thread about weight gain have been about stopping medications because of people's concern about weight gain. Don't you agree that's not a good idea? Terry
>
> > agree with v...why would anyone want "people to think about staying on their meds and not worrying so much about how they look"...since the way we think and feel are part and parcel OF depression.
> > In fact, this kind of attitude aimed at, and internalized by people, CAUSES depression.
> > That's scarey terry.
Posted by harry on April 8, 1999, at 11:42:33
In reply to Re: recovery, posted by harry on April 8, 1999, at 8:30:53
terry..you aren't listening to ANYTHING people are saying here.
as evidenced in infancy..we LISTEN..THEN we learn to speak.
Posted by learn to forget on April 8, 1999, at 14:39:21
In reply to Re: recovery, posted by harry on April 8, 1999, at 8:30:53
I switched to celexa from prozac because of hand tremor that interferes with playing music. My hands stopped shaking by about 75%, but you know what, celexa just isn't as good against the terrible triangel of anger, fear and saddness.
So now I'm back where I started: playing well or being well. I did learn one thing, however. I now know hell is not the absence of free-will is some burning pit, rather its having free will to choose between heinous options. >Being "brought to task" in regards to the effects of one's words and actions is an ESSENTIAL part of GROWING UP.
> All to often i see postings in "support forums" that allude to the idea that "support" means expressing kindly sweet remarks regardless of the
> context of anothers writing/actions.
> This is life without accepting PAIN as an intergral part of the learning process...and..is IMHO....a recipe to psychopathology.
>
> A great part of "recovery", eg:change and development as a person..is recognizing our OWN selfishness and self-centeredness..and acting in a way that will reduce and eliminate these actions and traits.
>
> And...this is true in every instance i have ever seen, in myself and others (exceptions include genuine "spiritual" revelation)....."SELFISHNESS and SELF-CENTEREDNESS respond ONLY to THEIR OWN PAIN"....NEVER to that of others.
>
> Attempting to dispense with this ESSENTIAL aspect of life...hearing that certain actions we take are INJURIOUS to self and others....is insanely self-serving...and ends up with a dead friend, family memeber, and loved one.....who thinks WE are "SO NICE".
>
> TRUE LOVE invloves DISCIPLINE.
> It effects life to "cease and desist" action that causes pain and sufefering to self and others.
> And gives us the divine space to reevaluate ourselves.
>
> Does it hurt?..You bet. It hurts when we get any "abscess" drained. And then a sense of healing and well being ensue.
> The other way..we get an ever increasing "abscess" the pain of which can only be relieved by greater and greater amounts of medication...while the "patients" relives the "pressure" by expressing its contents everywhere they go.
Posted by Victoria on April 8, 1999, at 14:46:17
In reply to Re: IS ANYBODY BEING CONSIDERATE?, posted by v on April 8, 1999, at 6:31:18
At the risk of stepping into this particular mine field, can I suggest that, on issues like this, we try to focus on communicating our own experience and not telling other people what to do? I know I find that more useful; one of the great things about this site is appreciating the complexity and diversity of us all. Although we share much, everyone's problems and solutions are individual and may be completely different from our own. (It also helps me not be offended to remember that everyone is really expressing only their own experience, even when it's worded as advice or a pronouncement.)
> > Please remember to try to be civil. You may disagree with what someone said, but take a minute and read it over again. Maybe there's a kernel of truth, at least, to what they said. That's an advantage of an online forum; you have time to think through what to say.
> >
> > People here are either in need of support, or trying to provide support, or both. It doesn't help any of them to be treated disrespectfully.
>
> actually, i am surprised that anything i wrote would have offended anyone - i deliberately reiterated the point that we're all different and that i begrudge noone their stance
>
> i never meant to hurt anyone's feelings... but it angers me that because i am managing to stay (yes, i too, feel the risk of posting here and can be oversensitive about responses), i am being called on the carpet for expressing myself... so should i leave too?
>
> i have written terry privately and truly hope she decides to stay - i don't want to leave here either but i'm angry and hurt.
>
> it's often very hard for me to reach out to this forum... now i wonder... oh, what's the use of trying to explain...
Posted by v on April 8, 1999, at 16:31:30
In reply to Re: recovery, posted by harry on April 8, 1999, at 8:30:53
i still maintain that i was not behaving in a selfish or injurious way towards anyone... all i ever stated was my position and in no way demeaned anyone elses
you may not agree with me... that is your perogative
if i am to be called to the carpet when i voice my way of seeing things, then this may not be the place for me to express myself
terry and i have no problem with each other - we respect each other's opinions... but we both now seem to be having a problem here
i wish you well...
Posted by Dr. Bob on April 8, 1999, at 21:10:49
In reply to Re: IS ANYBODY BEING CONSIDERATE?, posted by v on April 8, 1999, at 6:31:18
> actually, i am surprised that anything i wrote would have offended anyone...
Not to worry, it wasn't your post I was responding to. :-)
Bob
Posted by Dr. Bob on April 8, 1999, at 21:18:21
In reply to Re: recovery, posted by harry on April 8, 1999, at 8:30:53
> Being "brought to task" in regards to the effects of one's words and actions is an ESSENTIAL part of GROWING UP...
> Does it hurt?..You bet.
I'm glad you appreciate that it's essential. I hope it didn't hurt too much. :-)
> It hurts when we get any "abscess" drained...
It also hurts when we get needled where we don't have an abcess.
Bob
Posted by JohnB on April 8, 1999, at 23:58:23
In reply to the weight gain issue, posted by saintjames on March 26, 1999, at 1:46:56
Exercise and balanced nutrition are important to anyone's overall well-being. But keep in mind: most anti-d's in use now target neurotransmitter systems generally, which can mean many different parts of the brain, not all of which are necessarily implicated in depressive symptoms. An increase or decrease of, say, serotonin in certain parts of the brain my help mood symptoms but my play havoc with sites involved with appetitive or metabolic management. In most cases, weight gain is not caused by anything the patient can control completely; having an obscene sweet-tooth or overwhelming craving while on an MAOI or TRICYCLIC is as intense and all-consuming as the depressive symptoms being treated. This pharmacologically-triggered command to eat becomes real to many patients, and the literal slowing of metabolic processes make weight gain almost inevitable. Weight gain and its impact on health is not some frivolous concern. It's a genuine threat to human health that contributes to the chaos of a biological system out of balance, just as the torment of depression does.
Posted by Elizabeth on April 9, 1999, at 6:28:59
In reply to Re: the weight gain issue, posted by JohnB on April 8, 1999, at 23:58:23
(Thanks to Dr. Bob for making a point that we sometimes forget. :-)
>An increase or decrease of, say, serotonin in certain parts of the brain my help mood symptoms but my play havoc with sites involved with appetitive or metabolic management. In most cases, weight gain is not caused by anything the patient can control completely; having an obscene sweet-tooth or overwhelming craving while on an MAOI or TRICYCLIC is as intense and all-consuming as the depressive symptoms being treated. This pharmacologically-triggered command to eat becomes real to many patients, and the literal slowing of metabolic processes make weight gain almost inevitable. Weight gain and its impact on health is not some frivolous concern. It's a genuine threat to human health that contributes to the chaos of a biological system out of balance, just as the torment of depression does.
Yes, I can identify with this. It happened to me on two drugs, Nardil and amoxapine (the amoxapine was in an MAOI-tricyclic combination, which may have made it worse - not sure). It felt like being addicted to food - I'm happy never to have had the experience of having been addicted to drugs, but I can imagine this is what it feels like. I was constantly thinking about food and having cravings for it.
The way this was explained to me is that whatever it is that tells you, "okay, we're full now" (mediated by the hypothalamus?) - i.e., the satiety response - is blocked by some of these drugs. I get the impression not much is known about this.
Apparently, some of the newer antidepressants can do this too; I've heard about it quite a lot with regard to Paxil (interestingly, one of the more "selective" serotonin reuptake inhibitors).
My psychopharmacology instructor (a wide-eyed research type) says he expects the next big revolution in pharmacology to be a new type of drug delivery system that allows you to target specific areas of the brain. (I'm not so sure about that, at least not until imaging studies (fMRI, etc.) are a lot less expensive and we have gotten more adept at interpreting the results, but it's an interesting idea nonetheless.)
Posted by harry on April 9, 1999, at 9:07:53
In reply to Re: being considerate, posted by Dr. Bob on April 8, 1999, at 21:18:21
I stand by every word i said Doc.
Posted by Nancy on April 9, 1999, at 19:37:38
In reply to Re: the weight gain issue, posted by JohnB on April 8, 1999, at 23:58:23
Hello! Well said. I'm burning off 1000calories a day. I'm consuming a diet high in protien, low in fat and carbs. The amount I'm consuming is about 1200calories +/- 50calories per day. But, HELLO, I'm STILL GAINING WEIGHT!!! Fortunately, my pdoc also doubles as a specialist in eating disorders. So, he's having me keep a detailed daily log of everything I consume and all the exercise that I do. I guess he finds this anomoly difficult to SWALLOW...LOL. Personally, I have a hard time choking it down myself.
My meds are: 350mg Seroquel, 300mg Effexor XR, 50mcg T3(cytomel), and 150mcg T4(synthroid).
note: after having ECT, I dropped twenty pounds in 21 days. then, i was started on effexor and topomax. during the time of the ect, i was still on seroquel, but, only 200mg daily.
why no topomax, currently? well, my pdoc said that he did not approve of patients taking this drug, since HE hadn't read much in the way of studies done for topomax. so, i dropped the topomax and increased the seroquel (very effective mood stabilizer for me). i've continued to surf for topomax info. i think the pdoc who did my ect and gave me topomax was wise.
What can a pdoc do to help paitients who gain a lot of weight as a side effect of taking psychotropics??!!
> Exercise and balanced nutrition are important to anyone's overall well-being. But keep in mind: most anti-d's in use now target neurotransmitter systems generally, which can mean many different parts of the brain, not all of which are necessarily implicated in depressive symptoms. An increase or decrease of, say, serotonin in certain parts of the brain my help mood symptoms but my play havoc with sites involved with appetitive or metabolic management. In most cases, weight gain is not caused by anything the patient can control completely; having an obscene sweet-tooth or overwhelming craving while on an MAOI or TRICYCLIC is as intense and all-consuming as the depressive symptoms being treated. This pharmacologically-triggered command to eat becomes real to many patients, and the literal slowing of metabolic processes make weight gain almost inevitable. Weight gain and its impact on health is not some frivolous concern. It's a genuine threat to human health that contributes to the chaos of a biological system out of balance, just as the torment of depression does.
Posted by harry on April 9, 1999, at 22:36:04
In reply to Re: the weight gain issue/ can the pdocs help us?, posted by Nancy on April 9, 1999, at 19:37:38
"difficult to swallow".."hard time choking it down: HAHAHA
Posted by v on April 10, 1999, at 5:42:19
In reply to Re: recovery, posted by harry on April 8, 1999, at 8:39:41
thank you harry... that was very sweet of you to say... i really appreciate it
v
> BTW..i think "v"'s posting are excellent...express where she is at..how she is feeling..and the effects anothers actions have on her.
> THIS is a basic ability leading to being a healthy adult.
Posted by Muse on April 10, 1999, at 7:37:09
In reply to Re: being considerate, posted by harry on April 9, 1999, at 9:07:53
I have been saddened by what I have read. I thought this was supposed to be a helpful, supportive site. While you may not agree with what Terry said, could you not use some maturity in communication? It seems you spouted off at the keyboard as easily as you might verbally - reacting emotionally without thinking about what you are saying. I certainly have been guilty of saying things I shouldn't in a tone and intensity I shouldn't - but, like Dr. Bob has said, message boards provide an opportunity to THINK before you "speak". Terry was clearly finding a niche at this site; I grieve that someone has been driven away by such rudeness. I believe you need to re-read (assuming you have read it to begin with) Dr. Bob's introduction to this message board. I hope for your sake you can find a way to express your disagreement on this board and in life in a less hurtful way. Since people on this board do have problems, I will allow that the way you have expressed your disagreement and dislike is a symptom of something you are currently being treated for, and will try not to be as harshly judgmental as I would like to be right now. I wish you well.
Posted by harry on April 10, 1999, at 12:03:54
In reply to Being considerate, posted by Muse on April 10, 1999, at 7:37:09
Thats all very intellectual and interesting.
AND...getting REALLY angry at ANYONE who attempts to interfere with GENUINE efforts at recovery...with GENUINE expression of of what REAALLY matters to them (exercise, health, depression, etc)..is ESSENTIAL to leading a healthy life.Saying..."oooh..cutchy cutchy coo"...when someone steps on your toes..esp. ON PURPOSE...ESPECIALLY when you exerted IMMENSE effort to even the shoes they stpped on ON to get outside...is essential, integral an absolutely necessary..for you..AND for the person who thinks it's ok to interfere with you.
I think a great deal about EVERYTHING i say and write and do, you ignoramus.
I swear....i think a great title for a tome on recovering from this illness would be..."Oh yea?..well FYCK that and FYCK you".
Posted by Dr. Bob on April 10, 1999, at 12:20:42
In reply to Re: Being considerate, posted by harry on April 10, 1999, at 12:03:54
Hi, again,
I was hoping it wouldn't come to this, but I see I will have to find a way to keep people who can't or won't behave from disrupting this forum.
Alas, there are other things I'd rather do.
Anyway, in the meantime, I suggest just ignoring those who don't participate constructively. It's a good coping mechanism to practice using. :-)
Bob
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