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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 48. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by alexandra_k on February 11, 2005, at 20:11:42
So the boards are supposed to be for support...
And education...
But what if those come into conflict???Can you say something that is educational though possibly a bit hurtful (though not uncivil).
In the sense that sometimes it is painful to face up to stuff... but that the long term goods outweigh the initial 'ouch'. Not that we have the final word on the truth or anything, but can we say what we think and leave the uptake to the other person. They can reject it if they will...
I dunno. That is what I like about here. Peoples say what they think. Sometimes you get advice you didn't really want to hear (a bit painful) - but in my own case anyway after thinking about it I know it was very good (though a bit painful) advice.
Not just nauseating support that is never ending and doesn't help one progress from needing constant never ending support...
Does anyone have any idea at all of what I am trying to say?????
Just got an 'educational though unsupportive' post deleted from somewhere else...
f*ck that.
good luck to them.
for f*ck's sake...
(If anyones can tell me *what* I did wrong here - if anything - I would be grateful...)
Posted by Dinah on February 11, 2005, at 20:46:47
In reply to Support versus Education, posted by alexandra_k on February 11, 2005, at 20:11:42
I have no real idea of what happened, so I can't be specific.
But I do think that maybe different people are in our lives for different things. There are things that I could point out to people, but I don't because it isn't really my place and they haven't really asked me.
My therapist and I were talking about this the other day. About how some things were ok to hear from therapists, but you didn't really want to hear them from friends. Because friends were friends, not therapists.
I don't know if that helps any?
Posted by alexandra_k on February 11, 2005, at 20:51:55
In reply to Re: Support versus Education » alexandra_k, posted by Dinah on February 11, 2005, at 20:46:47
> My therapist and I were talking about this the other day. About how some things were ok to hear from therapists, but you didn't really want to hear them from friends. Because friends were friends, not therapists.
Yeah, I hear you.
But do you feel that that happens on the boards sometimes? That people say stuff like that? Would you prefer they didn't???
Posted by alexandra_k on February 11, 2005, at 21:00:31
In reply to Re: Support versus Education » alexandra_k, posted by Dinah on February 11, 2005, at 20:46:47
I posted a diagnostic criteria for someone to consider. Posted a link to a criteria (list of symptoms) and a bit of a discussion about the experience of those symptoms.
Said 'just a thought' with the links.
Told off for 'armchair diagnosing'.
That was not my intention.
The poster could have done what they wanted with it but in this case they got MOST OFFENDEDAnyways. I just presented it as something to consider.
A genuine attempt to be helpful
Not acceptable.
I stand by what I said before:
f*ck that.
Although... What do you think? Inappropriate?
Posted by Gabbi-x-2 on February 11, 2005, at 21:04:33
In reply to Re: Support versus Education » Dinah, posted by alexandra_k on February 11, 2005, at 21:00:31
> I posted a diagnostic criteria for someone to consider. Posted a link to a criteria (list of symptoms) and a bit of a discussion about the experience of those symptoms.
>
> Said 'just a thought' with the links.
>
> Told off for 'armchair diagnosing'.
> That was not my intention.
> The poster could have done what they wanted with it but in this case they got MOST OFFENDED
> Anyways. I just presented it as something to consider.
>
> A genuine attempt to be helpful
>
> Not acceptable.
>
> I stand by what I said before:
>
> f*ck that.
>
> Although... What do you think? Inappropriate?Yeah..
I think innappropriate, definitely.
Posted by Dinah on February 11, 2005, at 21:09:35
In reply to Re: Support versus Education » Dinah, posted by alexandra_k on February 11, 2005, at 21:00:31
No, I wouldn't consider that at all inappropriate. The person is free to consider and reject it. And to explain why it wouldn't fit. I mean, I don't know context or anything, but I don't consider any DSM-IV diagnosis to be so insulting that even a suggestion would be offensive.
Well, I can see times when listing the criteria for, say, anti-social personality disorder might be considered by Dr. Bob to be uncivil. :)
So I suppose it *is* impossible to say definitively without context.
Armchair diagnosing tho? I didn't think that was uncivil. Especially stated as a suggestion, not a conclusion.
However, to your other question. I think there are times when people are looking for support, not answers, here on the board. And I've certainly erred myself trying to provide the latter when the former was called for. I hope that people realize it comes from good intentions.
Posted by Gabbi-x-2 on February 11, 2005, at 21:11:55
In reply to Re: Support versus Education » alexandra_k, posted by Dinah on February 11, 2005, at 21:09:35
Posted by Dinah on February 11, 2005, at 21:12:55
In reply to Re: Support versus Education » alexandra_k, posted by Gabbi-x-2 on February 11, 2005, at 21:04:33
How so, Gabbi?
I'm most familiar with OCD, and when I see someone coming to ask about something that sounds awfully familiar to me, I always suggest that they check out OCD. It's fairly amenable to treatment, and knowing I wasn't nuts was a big stress reliever to me.
Posted by Gabbi-x-2 on February 11, 2005, at 21:49:39
In reply to Re: Support versus Education » Gabbi-x-2, posted by Dinah on February 11, 2005, at 21:12:55
> How so, Gabbi?
>
> I'm most familiar with OCD, and when I see someone coming to ask about something that sounds awfully familiar to me, I always suggest that they check out OCD. It's fairly amenable to treatment, and knowing I wasn't nuts was a big stress reliever to me.
>
I don't really think there's anything new for you here Dinah, it was just that Alexandra had a few things in her post that made me think in this instance it was innappropriate, in many cases I would not. The way it was pointed that the person got "MOST OFFENDED" makes me think that the suggestion had a bit of a personal edge to it, I picked up on it, and I didn't even see the original post. Also, I wonder how many other posters were offered diagnoses, that would be noticed too, why single out one person, unless you yourself have the disorder and then there is a connection.
I'm also guessing that if someone was hurt by it, it was likely suggested that they may "consider" the possiblity of having a disorder which implied something wrong with their entire being, rather than one aspect of it.
Idealism aside I think it would be very different for me to suggest somone consider the possibility of O.C.D rather than N.P.D or Borderline Personality Disorder. It's so easy to forget just how close to the edge someone may be, and I think offering such a suggestion could be a dangerous thing, as well as arrogant. As for prefacing it with "just a thought".. I know I'm not alone in expecting a pearl handled knife to the ribs when I hear or see the words "Just a thought" "Just curious" Or "No Offence but.."
If something needs to be suggested maybe it should be to call a therapist or a P.Doc.I'm sorry for the wordiness, I'm even less clear-headed than usual today.
Posted by alexandra_k on February 11, 2005, at 21:49:50
In reply to Re: Support versus Education » Gabbi-x-2, posted by Dinah on February 11, 2005, at 21:12:55
> I'm most familiar with OCD, and when I see someone coming to ask about something that sounds awfully familiar to me, I always suggest that they check out OCD. It's fairly amenable to treatment, and knowing I wasn't nuts was a big stress reliever to me.
Yeah. That was kind of my thought. That this person was struggling with coming to understand those symptoms. They were expressing them in different words, but not much of a jump in the translation. It isn't an answer as to *why* things are so very hard. But you have to get a clearer view of *what* is wrong before you can get closer to the answer of *why* the same old sh*t keeps happening.
And they could have said 'had a look, but I really don't think it applies' in which case I would have left it there.
They weren't specifically asking for help with what was going on for them right there and then. But there has been a lot of 'why why why' at other times and places....
Oh well.
It was the deletion that got to me.
You'd think something would have to be grossly inappropriate. Even if what I did was quite a bit inappropriate *grossly* inappropriate????No.
Posted by alexandra_k on February 11, 2005, at 21:50:29
In reply to Re: Support versus Education » alexandra_k, posted by Gabbi-x-2 on February 11, 2005, at 21:04:33
Ok. Why inappropriate??
(in the attempt to see it both ways)
Posted by alexandra_k on February 11, 2005, at 21:52:42
In reply to Re: Support versus Education » Gabbi-x-2, posted by Dinah on February 11, 2005, at 21:12:55
I agree that sometimes people just want a bit of support. I do see that. And I agree that it would be inappropriate to even advise people sometimes when they are just looking for support.
I knew this person would get pissed off.
But I thought they might reconsider what I had said sometime when they were ready to look at it...
Posted by alexandra_k on February 11, 2005, at 22:03:18
In reply to Re: Support versus Education » Dinah, posted by Gabbi-x-2 on February 11, 2005, at 21:49:39
Ok. That made sense.
It wasn't my place. I agree.
Posted by Gabbi-x-2 on February 11, 2005, at 22:04:29
In reply to Re: Support versus Education » Gabbi-x-2, posted by alexandra_k on February 11, 2005, at 22:03:18
> Ok. That made sense.
>
> It wasn't my place. I agree.Which is not to say... I haven't had fantasies of doing much worse.
Posted by alexandra_k on February 11, 2005, at 22:11:29
In reply to Re: Support versus Education » Dinah, posted by Gabbi-x-2 on February 11, 2005, at 21:49:39
I mean, I posted it because my thinking was along the lines of Dinah's.
> The way it was pointed that the person got "MOST OFFENDED" makes me think that the suggestion had a bit of a personal edge to it
This person gets MOST OFFENDED maybe 4 days out of 7 (and not just at me). That was sort of one of the symptoms I had in mind...
>why single out one person, unless you yourself have the disorder and then there is a connection.
Well I would hardly provide a link to a disorder I knew nothing about.
> I'm also guessing that if someone was hurt by it, it was likely suggested that they may "consider" the possiblity of having a disorder which implied something wrong with their entire being, rather than one aspect of it.I am not sure they would see the difference there. Not only that, but it was a link to a personality disorder yes.
> It's so easy to forget just how close to the edge someone may be, and I think offering such a suggestion could be a dangerous thing, as well as arrogant.I did carefully select non-judgemental links that were good descriptions of symptoms from the experiencer's point of view. The idea behind it was 'these problems are inter-related', other people have similar stuff, there is hope. Also, the person often asks *why* this sort of thing *always happens* to her. The links provided something of a non-judgemental answer.
But I agree with you.
It wasn't my place.
Probably did it out of frustration more than I would like to admit.
Need to get better at the old self-control.
Learn to leave things alone.
Posted by jujube on February 11, 2005, at 22:41:42
In reply to Re: Support versus Education » Gabbi-x-2, posted by alexandra_k on February 11, 2005, at 22:11:29
FWIW, I don't think it is a matter of whether it is a person's "place" to educate or not. It is a judgement call - one person may well be receptive to an educational approach while another may not. I think in reading other people's posts, we become aware, to some degree, of a person's response expectations (support, education, a combination of the two). No two people are the same, and I think it is impossible to apply a cookie-cutter approach when dealing with people and responding to posts. Some people welcome and thrive on a more direct approach, while others learn and grow with a softer, gentler approach. I guess we have to learn to pick our moments. Who knows.
Posted by alexandra_k on February 11, 2005, at 22:56:27
In reply to Re: Support versus Education » alexandra_k, posted by jujube on February 11, 2005, at 22:41:42
Thanks for that. Good post :-)
I guess I knew she would be upset at the time...
Thought over time she might be willing to have another look...
It could have been there for her to find in the archives...
But no
It is deleted forever...
There are much more unhelpful links out there :-(Oh well.
I don't know if I regret it or not...
Posted by All Done on February 12, 2005, at 1:47:42
In reply to Support versus Education, posted by alexandra_k on February 11, 2005, at 20:11:42
Hmm...I seem to have a lot to say on this matter. Not entirely sure why, but I'll think about it.
>> Not just nauseating support that is never ending and doesn't help one progress from needing constant never ending support...Wow. Nauseating? Doesn't help? Maybe they aren't looking for progress at that moment, they just really, truly need a place for support?
>> If anyones can tell me *what* I did wrong here - if anything - I would be grateful...I'm not going to tell you what you did was wrong. FWIW, I'll just give you my feelings on the whole thing. (BTW, I read all the posts involved).
I once started a thread asking if I should ask my pdoc for a dx. I wasn’t sure I was ready to hear the "official" word regardless of what it might be. I most certainly wouldn’t have wanted another poster making the jump from what I say in my posts (as opposed to the whole "picture" of me that one might understand better IRL) to a possible dx. What I write about in my posts are just a part of what makes up me.
And if I already had a dx from a pdoc, it would make me a bit uncomfortable to have someone questioning it. Imagine if I posted that I was overweight and my doctor told me it was due to hypothyroidism and put me on medication to treat it. Then, I posted that I was really upset about my weight problem and I got a response with a link to information about diabetes, Overeaters Anonymous, Cushing’s Syndrome or anything else that might cause weight gain. If nothing else, I’d feel offended that my doctor, the one I chose and put my trust in, is being second guessed. And I'd feel offended if it was assumed I did not already research all the possibilities myself.
It is, of course, a whole other ball of wax if I had asked for opinions of the dx.
>> The poster could have done what they wanted with it but in this case they got MOST OFFENDEDDo you think at least part of her strong reaction may have stemmed from the fact that she has asked you on more than one occasion not to post to her? I read her post in response to your deleted posts and I’m not 100% sure whether she was more offended by what you were suggesting or the simple fact that you posted to her.
Don't get me wrong. I believe there is a time and place for posters to offer the kind of education you were trying to provide. An actual request for the information would be a good start, but in instances where there isn't a direct request, but it seems like it might be helpful to the poster anyway, I would first consider the emotional state of the poster and my own relationship with him or her (among a billion other things...but that's just me ;)).Not sure if any of this makes sense and I really hope I haven't been uncivil in trying to explain my thoughts. I don't feel very organized this evening.
Take care,
Laurie
Posted by Dinah on February 12, 2005, at 9:19:34
In reply to Re: Support versus Education » Dinah, posted by Gabbi-x-2 on February 11, 2005, at 21:49:39
I bow to your superior powers of observation. :)
And Alexandra, perhaps you could take the deletion less personally if you think of it as for the benefit of the other poster rather than as an indictment of you. We all know Dr. Bob doesn't do it, but if you look at it from that point of view, you might be able to keep a viable source of support.
Posted by gardenergirl on February 12, 2005, at 9:45:05
In reply to Support versus Education, posted by alexandra_k on February 11, 2005, at 20:11:42
Not to stir up board comparison controversy again...this is just my own observation and my own preference....
One of the things I really love about Babble is that I get both support and advice/education. I think part of that is because people here know me, and as Jujube quite beautifully pointed out, you develop a sense for what the person is asking for, and what else they might be able to consider that maybe they hadn't thought of.
My experience at another site is that unless I specifically ask for advice, I get supportive posts in return. Nothing wrong with that, but I guess because I'm not really known there and have not developed the relationships there as I have here, they seem less satisfying to me.
In regards to your situation over at the other site, I babblemailed you on it. But I also want to agree with AllDone about the do not post to me thing. Of course asking on one board does not preclude you from posting on another, but I think this poster is not inclined to appreciate any posts from you right now, since she has asked you not to post.
I did see what you were trying to say in the post that was deleted. I know I would value someone pointing me in a direction to look that maybe I hadn't thought of. Especially if they had had the opportunity to observe something in me that might fit. And especially if we had a relationship where I trusted their judgement.
I think education is good. And there is a difference between education and advice, imo. I see that clearly at times in posts here that perhaps sometimes do not have the effect that the author may have intended. Although I am inferring intent and responding to their posts as an individual, so I guess you can't generalize from my own observations. (backpedal backpedal backpedal)
So, there are my associations to your situation. For what it's worth...
One thing I appreciate about your posts, alexandra, is the critical thinking you put into them. Always makes me think, too.
Warmly,
gg
Posted by Gabbi-x-2 on February 12, 2005, at 13:49:48
In reply to Re: Support versus Education » Gabbi-x-2, posted by Dinah on February 12, 2005, at 9:19:34
> I bow to your superior powers of observation. :)
Oh is that what it was? I think perhaps it was me knowing how I feel sometimes, I just have the good fortune of a very patient civility buddy. : )
Posted by Dinah on February 12, 2005, at 14:28:46
In reply to Re: Support versus Education » Dinah, posted by Gabbi-x-2 on February 12, 2005, at 13:49:48
In that case I bow to your superior powers of empathy.
Posted by Gabbi-x-2 on February 12, 2005, at 14:36:22
In reply to :-) » Gabbi-x-2, posted by Dinah on February 12, 2005, at 14:28:46
> In that case I bow to your superior powers of empathy.
>
> Well seeing as you insist on being down there, can I toss you a cloth? My mom's coming to visit, and the floors are kinda yucky.
Posted by Dinah on February 12, 2005, at 17:37:23
In reply to Re: :-) » Dinah, posted by Gabbi-x-2 on February 12, 2005, at 14:36:22
Gladly.
And since you're up there can I toss you a cloth? We're converting a room into a library and the walls need a good rinse.
Posted by Gabbi-x-2 on February 12, 2005, at 20:03:46
In reply to lol » Gabbi-x-2, posted by Dinah on February 12, 2005, at 17:37:23
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