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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by Dinah on February 2, 2003, at 11:04:45
In reply to Re: Could you guys just answer one question?, posted by Dinah on February 2, 2003, at 9:53:33
This may sound a bit harsh, but I'm not looking to feel better about *myself*. I try hard to believe the best about everyone, that everyone means well, etc. And that takes effort sometimes. I'm trying to understand how the "sensitive" people came to be the bad guys on this thread. I'm trying to understand why no one (else) said to Oddipus that they understood his/her feelings and respected them. I reassured Oddipus that this was true. I tried to believe it. I even appealed to everyone to verify my beliefs. And all I saw was more posts about over-sensitive people, and good fun, and not to take things so seriously, etc. I am not asking that people agree about redneck jokes, I explained that over and over. I'm not saying that others meant harm, I said that over and over. I understand that the term rednecks is probably not understood in all parts of the world, I said that over and over.
But I also said over and over that people didn't mean to disparage those who were sensitive and who had certain values concerning jokes about groups. And yet post after post seemed to prove me wrong. And eventually it broke the camel's back. I could no longer believe that people didn't belittle the values of the "sensitive" persons.
I'm not looking to be asked to stay. I'm not looking for positive statements about me. I'm not looking to be welcomed back. My self esteem is just fine.
I'm trying to maintain my esteem for others, my caring for others, by asking you all straight out if you find sensitive people or sensitivity unacceptable or something to be mocked or belittled.
And if you do, I'm trying to understand why. Because understanding why people feel the way they do is how I maintain my positive feelings towards them.
Again, I'm sorry if this sounds harsh. And this isn't intended for anyone in particular. But you guys have disappointed me in your reaction to Oddipus Rex. I don't understand why people couldn't have said "I understand that your values and your sensitivity lead you to feel uncomfortable with these jokes, and I respect that, but....." instead of "some people are so oversensitive, can't you take a joke". That's all.
Posted by Ritch on February 2, 2003, at 11:22:08
In reply to Re: Don't fret IsoM, posted by Phil on February 2, 2003, at 7:27:50
> This is an incredible reaction when you take into account that Jeff Foxworthy has made millions off of redneck jokes.
> I know rednecks..virtually all of them would have your joke on their refrigerator door.
>
> Thank you,
>
> PhilPhil, have you come across any Foxworthy stuff about pulling teeth without seeing a dentist? I got a cavity when I was eight years old and it was hurting a lot. My parents didn't have the money (or couldn't afford to spend it) to take me to the dentist, so they tied fishing line to my tooth and the other end to a door knob and slammed the door. Out came the tooth! I guess that's how they took care of cavities during the Depression.
Posted by Ritch on February 2, 2003, at 12:01:33
In reply to Re: FYI » Ritch, posted by Dinah on February 1, 2003, at 16:20:27
> Ritch, I hate to be overly sensitive, but doesn't it bother you that when someone says redneck someone else thinks of KKK and child beaters? Don't you think that jokes have a part in that? Jokes have traditionally been used to label groups and desensitize people to hatred.
>
> I don't like to argue, really. But sometimes saying nothing seems like it's saying something.
>
> I'm not talking so much now about IsoM's original jokes. I am sure she didn't mean to unleash what she did. And maybe it would have gone away quicker had Oddipus or I or Lou said nothing. But I've never been a big believer in peace at all costs.
>
> I don't mean to offend you, or IsoM, or Jay, or anyone. I'm sure that a lot of this is just confusion over terminology.
>
> I'm sorry that Oddipus was hurt by getting the impression that her values were being scoffed at. (I'm kind of used to it by now, but it used to hurt me.) I'm sure IsoM is hurt that her jokes were taken in a way that she never intended. And I'm sure that Jay is hurt too. So much hurt all the way around.
>
> As for you, you never offended me at all. You have a different opinion about redneck jokes, that's all.
Dinah, yes it is unfortunate that oftentimes the first thing someone thinks about a certain group is a negative thing as you mentioned. *Malicious* jokes do exist and those kind do foster negative stereotypes. I would call what Jeff Foxworthy does a "non-malicious" form of humor. When you belong to the group of people you are satirizing it is much different. When folks (like Foxworthy), can laugh about their own group's peculiarities it makes them feel better. I did note your dictionary definition included the term "often disparaging", and since dictionaries are into *usage*, then it is probably accurate that that word is *often used* in a disparaging manner. When I hear some of these pecularities it triggers good memories, not bad ones, and that is because I am very *familiar* with that group. It is *true* (i.e.) that in the small town I lived in for many years (actually I lived in the middle of nowhere and the "small town" was 12 miles away) the most common jobs to be had were-truck driver, mechanic, rancher/farmer. I had three uncles who were truck drivers, and many cousins that were too. Most people couldn't make enough money on farming/ranching alone. The "cars in the yard" thing that Foxworthy talks about is accurate and there is a reason for it. You have to spend a lot of your time driving long distances, and those "extra cars" are sources of spare parts. I've known people (I've done some of this myself) that might have three pickups), and two of them are for spare parts in case they have a breakdown(and they are pickups not cars because you have to have somewhere to stash the feed/seed/pigs/etc. and kids are in the back of the pickup because there isn't anywhere else for them to sit-I've done a lot of riding in the backs of pickups ;)). You learn how to be a decent mechanic because you have to. The circumstances dictate the reality. It is just "peculiar" because many folks do not share the same circumstances. I think humor is as much of a way to "bridge" experience between different groups as it is a way of fostering negative stereotypes. I think all this relates somehow to the psychological truth about behavior tends to be ascribed to character rather than circumstances.
Posted by bluedog on February 2, 2003, at 12:06:13
In reply to Re: Please don't misunderstand., posted by Dinah on February 2, 2003, at 11:04:45
>
> I'm trying to maintain my esteem for others, my caring for others, by asking you all straight out if you find sensitive people or sensitivity unacceptable or something to be mocked or belittled.
>Hello again Dinah
I am myself an EXTREMELY sensitive individual. There is absolutely no way that I would ever find sensitivity unacceptable and I doubt that others on this board would take that view either. I would be willing to bet quite a bit of money that the majority of the posters at PSB are actually very sensitive individuals no matter what bravado some posters may put up to the contrary.
I do however believe that both Oddipus and Iso had a misunderstanding and that they should have been left completely alone to work out there differences between themselves rather than everyone immediately jumping in to either take sides or play the role of peacemaker.
I believe that both Oddipus and Iso are both sensitive caring individuals and that through a misunderstanding they hurt eachother.....though there is no way I would class the wounds inflicted as mortal. They hurt eachother through absolutely no malicious feelings or intent to hurt on the others part.
However they are also both adult human beings and believe that had everyone just "butted out" they would have sorted out their differences all on their own and come to a greater and deeper understanding of eachother and probably even ended up coming away from the experience as great friends. I don't think it benefits disagreements on this board when everyone feels the immediate need to jump in with their own two cents worth.
I honestly believe that in these situations that Bob should develop or fine tune the civility rules to BAN everyone from taking part in a difference of opinion between individual posters until the individuals concerned have had the opportunity to discuss their differences with eachother individually without the waters being muddied by everyone else immediately jumping in to either take sides or to try and play peacemaker. Of course malicious personal attacks should not be tolerated but I strongly believe that Bob or someone acting in an official role as one of Bob's deputies should be the ONLY persons allowed to add to these discussions to ensure that the discussions remain within certain civility guidelines.....but some leeway and flexibilty should be allowed for the posters to vent their feelings.
Only if it becomes clearly apparent that the individuals will not be able to resolve their differences should Bob then step in and ban further posts on the particular topic for a set period of time (a cool off period if you like) say for a period of two weeks. He should not block the individuals unless one or the other persists in discussing the topic after Bob has imposed a "cool Off" period. I guarantee you that by the end of the cool off period that the posters would have been able to take a step back to put things into perspective and in most liklihood decide that their differences were really not that significant or earth shattering after all and may even decide to simply agree to disagree on a very amicable basis.
Just my opinion really but I again emphasise that I in no way find sensitivity unacceptable and actually find sensitivity a positive character trait rather than a character flaw in any individual.
warm regards
bluedog
Posted by Dinah on February 2, 2003, at 12:23:18
In reply to Re: Please don't misunderstand., posted by Dinah on February 2, 2003, at 11:04:45
That's the sort of dialogue that helps me understand everyone's position without feeling badly towards anyone. And I really really do believe that in the vast majority of cases that sort of dialogue can sort out misunderstandings that lead to anger and hurt feelings. That's why I asked outright rather than simmered.
Ritch, you're so right about our tendency being to ascribe behavior to character and not circumstances. That's why I prefer to ask for clarification when I'm tempted to do the former.
Sorry if I overreacted, guys. I tend to try too hard to be calm and reasonable, then blow it past a certain point.
And Nikki, I'm sorry. I misunderstood the point you were trying to make. It has to be frustrating for you to be in that position.
I'm feeling better now.
Posted by dreamerz on February 2, 2003, at 12:46:36
In reply to Re: Ethnic Jokes » dreamerz, posted by NikkiT2 on February 2, 2003, at 5:59:01
Hi Nikki
The majority of shops here are ..Turkish/Asian/Jamacian er I'm not sure of some: )
I guess I'm too sedated to care outside. I see muslim wemoen around the streets but they seem kind of sad ..that's how I see them maybe they're not.
I moved recently from an area predominantly asian --indian -pakistan--I loved that area ..
Anyway...best to keep out of way if there is a pocket of tension although you may feel you have every right to go about wherever..it's not fair I know... some will always use the racist card as an easy defense..it's crazy out there.
Take care..
Posted by NikkiT2 on February 2, 2003, at 13:03:09
In reply to Re: Thank you Ritch and Bluedog, posted by Dinah on February 2, 2003, at 12:23:18
Thanks Dinah...
I did feel a little misunderstood.. but decided saying it anymore wasn't going to help.
I, for certain, am very sensitive on certain issues... I think everyone has certain "triggers" what ever they say.
*gives you a sunday evening hug*
Nikki x
Posted by Ritch on February 2, 2003, at 15:20:19
In reply to Re: Thank you Ritch and Bluedog, posted by Dinah on February 2, 2003, at 12:23:18
Posted by Phil on February 2, 2003, at 15:55:22
In reply to Re: Don't fret IsoM » Phil, posted by Ritch on February 2, 2003, at 11:22:08
Yeah, I remember when someone had a loose tooth we'd say tie it to a door knob.
I had a molar pulled by a dentist; root canal gone bad, and I was on the verge of passing out from pain when he pulled the second half of the tooth out. They hit the oxygen and I came to.
Next time I have a painful procedure, if the dentist doesn't knock me out, I'll find a way. Pain sucks.
Posted by judy1 on February 2, 2003, at 16:18:25
In reply to Ethnic Jokes, posted by OddipusRex on February 1, 2003, at 12:13:13
thanks so much for the site, it really helped me with ways to handle ethnic jokes. I am guilty of not confronting even when something said makes me uncomfortable, I plan on practicing the response 4 method until I feel comfortable using it. take care, judy
Posted by Phil on February 2, 2003, at 16:21:18
In reply to You're welcome! See yuns, headin' to Walmart! (nm) » Dinah, posted by Ritch on February 2, 2003, at 15:20:19
When I was a young long haired holey blue jean wearing aspiring drug addict in South Texas, we defined rednecks as usually older people who would sneer at us, didn't understand us, sometimes despised us. That was our definition.
I knew lots of people with cars in their yard, etc. but many were very cool people and good friends. But I also knew business men who were rednecks.
None of it had to do with poverty especially or many of the other definitions.
Jeff Foxworthy started a comedy routine that changed the definition and I honestly think he's a very funny guy.
Growing up in Texas, I can promise you, if Jeff Foxworthy walked into a "redneck bar" they would be begging for more jokes and laughing their butts off.
People used to make fun of all the heartache and drinking songs of country music before it became a watered down rock with a country twang. Nashville sqeezes any artist they can into a slick polished soul less musician.
Some of the best people I worked with on my stepfathers 6000 acres of grain and cotton fields would 'look like rednecks'. My stepfather wore boots, blue jeans a farmer Stetson and western shirts. In the city, people may have seen him as a dumb redneck. Well, he just made it thru the 10th grade and then hadto go to work on his daddys farm.
He took out a loan for a hay bailer and never looked back, a banker told me. Old Herschel, walked with a limp that he never ever complained about and retired a millionaire. Not too bad for a redneck.
Posted by Tabitha on February 2, 2003, at 17:00:30
In reply to Re: Please don't misunderstand., posted by Dinah on February 2, 2003, at 11:04:45
I see the same thing, Dinah. It does seem like the person who is brave enough to voice their hurt or offense is often criticized for it (on this board and elsewhere). Bugs me too. To put it in perspective-- I think what usually happens is that nobody wants to be seen as hurtful, so their defense is to invalidate the feelings of the hurtee. Sad for all involved.
Posted by judy1 on February 2, 2003, at 17:05:15
In reply to Re: Being sensitive is not a sin, posted by Dinah on February 2, 2003, at 8:52:27
Well you know I couldn't agree more with that statement. Just wanted to make sure you and Oddipus were feeling less upset today? I hope so. take care, judy
Posted by Dinah on February 2, 2003, at 19:05:32
In reply to Re: Being sensitive is not a sin » Dinah, posted by judy1 on February 2, 2003, at 17:05:15
Posted by IsoM on February 2, 2003, at 20:20:32
In reply to Re: Don't fret IsoM, posted by Phil on February 2, 2003, at 7:27:50
Thanks, Phil. I'm honestly not the least bit upset by all this. I find it interesting that such a reaction has happened because of my original post - sure is an eye-opener on diff people's reactions. But I'm feeling quite untouched by it all. My interjections were only to explain that *I* thought they were jokes about etiquette. I didn't know real rednecks existed, being the naive Canadian that I am. So why should I feel guilty when my intentions were innocent?
(And if anyone else reads this & tries to post a response to my feeling of lack of guilt, I'm not planning on reading anything further in this ridiculous thread.)
Posted by shar on February 2, 2003, at 22:17:30
In reply to Re: The meaning has changed, posted by Phil on February 2, 2003, at 16:21:18
> I knew lots of people with cars in their yard, etc. but many were very cool people and good friends. But I also knew business men who were rednecks.
> None of it had to do with poverty especially or many of the other definitions.
> Jeff Foxworthy started a comedy routine that changed the definition and I honestly think he's a very funny guy.
> Growing up in Texas, I can promise you, if Jeff Foxworthy walked into a "redneck bar" they would be begging for more jokes and laughing their butts off.Man, I love that one thing that Foxworthy talks about--watching a working TV that's sitting on a nonworking console TV. hahahahaha. That is so true, and so funny! I grew up with that!
Shar
Posted by Phil on February 3, 2003, at 6:10:11
In reply to Re: The meaning has changed » Phil, posted by shar on February 2, 2003, at 22:17:30
Shar
There isn't much he says that doesn't crack me up. Guess you just gotta be one!
Phil
Posted by syringachalet on February 3, 2003, at 9:00:45
In reply to Re: The meaning has changed » shar, posted by Phil on February 3, 2003, at 6:10:11
Phil,
I think Jeff Foxworthy is a hoot!!
Hes kind of like a Forest Gump...everybody knows one and even though they may not always be the smartest people on the planet or 'politically correct'--more times not-- they are mostly good decent nice people who just dont take themselves too seriously.
P.S. I especially like his Olympics video.
syringachalet
Posted by OddipusRex on February 3, 2003, at 9:55:04
In reply to Re: The meaning has changed, posted by syringachalet on February 3, 2003, at 9:00:45
My objection to ethnic jokes is that they dehumanize groups of people. It is a subtle form of racism which often leads to outright discrimination. My objection has nothing to do with whether I like or dislike Rednecks. I suspect that they are as varied as any other group of people.
Jeff Foxworthy doesn't define rednecks. Or does he? He has made a lot of money promoting his caricature and seems to have had a lot of success. Is it a good thing to let a comedian change the definition of a term? Is it okay to stereotype a whole group of people if you show them as lovable buffoons?
If Amos and Andy had been allowed to define an entire ethnic group,would that be alright? They were funny. If it's funny is it okay?
Are rap songs about niggers and whores just a change of definition and a good thing?
Just asking. I don't think this thread is ridiculous at all. Though it certainly wasn't what I expected!
Posted by OddipusRex on February 3, 2003, at 10:03:21
In reply to Re: Ethnic Jokes » OddipusRex, posted by judy1 on February 2, 2003, at 16:18:25
Thanks Judy. I wish I had found it before I posted anything. Maybe I could have handled it better. Maybe I should have just gone to Admin and asked about ethnic jokes in general.
> thanks so much for the site, it really helped me with ways to handle ethnic jokes. I am guilty of not confronting even when something said makes me uncomfortable, I plan on practicing the response 4 method until I feel comfortable using it. take care, judy
Posted by syringachalet on February 3, 2003, at 10:07:10
In reply to Changing the meaning, posted by OddipusRex on February 3, 2003, at 9:55:04
OddipusRex,..I get a kick out of that name.. Othello would rollover in his grave...LMAO
If you are that easily offended by someone telling a harmless joke, I am truly sorry for you.
P.S. I AM offended when people use the "N"
word in my presence.That term used in the general population really does show racial bigotry and a lack of your ability to communicate without biasis.
I thought you were more intelligent than that.
I am very disappointed.syringachalet
Posted by OddipusRex on February 3, 2003, at 10:23:16
In reply to Re: I do feel better. Thanks for asking. (nm) » judy1, posted by Dinah on February 2, 2003, at 19:05:32
I hope your feeling okay. I appreciate your opinions. I think being sensitive is a mixed blessing. Being overwhelmed by my feelings can really get in the way sometimes. I am trying to cultivate a little detachment but it's not easy. And being sensitive is just part of who I am, it's not optional. If people were suggesting that I just try to be a little less stupid it would be easier to do than trying to just be a little less sensitive.Of course being so sensitive I'd probably get upset about being told to be less stupid ;-)
I think I'll try to keep my feelings out of things from now on. The problem with all those "I feel" statements is that if I say "I feel hurt when you say...." the person who was saying that may just know they've hit the target and come back with more!
And my case against ethnic humor isn't based on my personal feelings. It's based on respect for human dignity and the value of the individual.
You said once these things don't bother you as much any more and I think that's encouraging! It doesn't bother me as much as it did that first night either.
Thanks for the support.
Posted by OddipusRex on February 3, 2003, at 10:30:41
In reply to Changing the meaning, posted by OddipusRex on February 3, 2003, at 9:55:04
Post corrected to include quotation marks to emphacize that I was referring to the WORDS used in rap songs. Sorry I thought my meaning was apparent. My mistake. I object to those words to. That was my point actually :-) Sorry you were offended Syringachalet.
> My objection to ethnic jokes is that they dehumanize groups of people. It is a subtle form of racism which often leads to outright discrimination. My objection has nothing to do with whether I like or dislike Rednecks. I suspect that they are as varied as any other group of people.
>
> Jeff Foxworthy doesn't define rednecks. Or does he? He has made a lot of money promoting his caricature and seems to have had a lot of success. Is it a good thing to let a comedian change the definition of a term? Is it okay to stereotype a whole group of people if you show them as lovable buffoons?
>
> If Amos and Andy had been allowed to define an entire ethnic group,would that be alright? They were funny. If it's funny is it okay?
>
> Are rap songs about "niggers" and "whores" just a change of definition and a good thing?
>
> Just asking. I don't think this thread is ridiculous at all. Though it certainly wasn't what I expected!
>
>
Posted by coral on February 3, 2003, at 10:31:25
In reply to Being sensitive » Dinah, posted by OddipusRex on February 3, 2003, at 10:23:16
You said, "The problem with all those "I feel" statements is that if I say "I feel hurt when you say...." the person who was saying that may just know they've hit the target and come back with more!" What a very sad statement. I have one person in my world who would "come back with more" and I only have contact with this person due to family entanglements. Obviously, I never expose myself or admit feelings of hurt for exactly the reasons you gave. The other people in my world hear my statements and know that it's a sensitive area and proceed with gentle caution if something further needs to be said. (It took a lot of time for me to learn how to express myself so intimately, though... and trust of others.)
Posted by Dinah on February 3, 2003, at 10:35:04
In reply to Re: Changing the meaning, posted by syringachalet on February 3, 2003, at 10:07:10
> OddipusRex,..I get a kick out of that name.. Othello would rollover in his grave...LMAO
>
> If you are that easily offended by someone telling a harmless joke, I am truly sorry for you.
>
I assume that also applies to me. No need to feel sorry for me. And this is what I meant by what I said before. Unless I am misunderstanding you.>
> P.S. I AM offended when people use the "N"
> word in my presence.
>
> That term used in the general population really does show racial bigotry and a lack of your ability to communicate without biasis.
>
> I thought you were more intelligent than that.
> I am very disappointed.
>
> syringachaletI strongly suspect you misunderstood Rex's meaning.
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