![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 46. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Dr. Bob on December 21, 2006, at 2:52:55
In reply to Re: anger **suicide and SI triggers** » Dr. Bob, posted by LlurpsieBlossom on December 17, 2006, at 13:59:35
> a feeling of disenfranchisement and disempowerment that I get when I spend too much time on the Admin board.
> I got frustrated, because I sensed a contradiction on your part- I sensed that you wish to get feedback from users, but that you also wish to limit decision making. It is equally frustrating that we are very rarely privy to your rationale for making changes. Even major, dramatic changes are often announced like: I'm trying out a new blocking system; or, what do the deputies think? or, let's try this out for now.
>
> If you could explain your reasoning a little bit better, it would help ME to understand whether you are more flexible in terms of some policy changes vs. others. It would help me understand what kind of data and feedback informs your decisions. It would help me understand that making suggestions on the Administration board is not an exercise in futile whining, but that our suggestions are considered seriously.I think it's easy to feel disempowered here, and that may be what makes this hard for some people. It may trigger them.
But it's not a contradiction to want input on a decision and also still to want to make that decision oneself. Better to ask for input than not. But asking for input, and considering it seriously, doesn't necessarily mean delegating authority.
In some situations, however, being asked what you want does mean being able to decide what you get, and people may assume that's the case here. It usually isn't, but OTOH sometimes it is, so I guess that could be confusing. We may be moving toward a more democratic structure, but we're not there yet.
If you'd like to know what my rationale is, or if I'm open to a change, please just ask.
Bob
Posted by fayeroe on December 21, 2006, at 19:23:03
In reply to Re: disempowerment, posted by Dr. Bob on December 21, 2006, at 2:52:55
what is your rationale?
Posted by muffled on December 22, 2006, at 19:34:51
In reply to Re: disempowerment, posted by Dr. Bob on December 21, 2006, at 2:52:55
I think it's easy to feel disempowered here, and that may be what makes this hard for some people. It may trigger them.
**It FRUSTRATES the hell out of me
But it's not a contradiction to want input on a decision and also still to want to make that decision oneself. Better to ask for input than not. But asking for input, and considering it seriously, doesn't necessarily mean delegating authority.
**Ahhhhh, but I, and I think I not alone in this, do not feel that you consider our input seriously....
In some situations, however, being asked what you want does mean being able to decide what you get, and people may assume that's the case here. It usually isn't, but OTOH sometimes it is, so I guess that could be confusing. We may be moving toward a more democratic structure, but we're not there yet.
**Yet Bob, you keep asking us to help each other....
There's been mumblings bout you wanting to not have to spend so much time administrating here.
We ARE moving towards a more democratic structure? In what way have we done this? I seem to have missed this...
If you'd like to know what my rationale is, or if I'm open to a change, please just ask.
**Oh but we do ask. Over and over and over again. Sometimes you answer. Sometimes you don't. MOST of your one liner very short answers are most unsatisfactory.
Everyonce in awhile you say a wee bit more. And that is very refreshing.
And so, yes i feel useless and disempowered and IMO I feel I am not the only one by ANY stretch....
Hmmmm
Muffled
Posted by Dr. Bob on December 23, 2006, at 16:17:25
In reply to Re: disempowerment » Dr. Bob, posted by muffled on December 22, 2006, at 19:34:51
> what is your rationale?
>
> fayeroeFor what?
--
> There's been mumblings bout you wanting to not have to spend so much time administrating here.
> We ARE moving towards a more democratic structure? In what way have we done this? I seem to have missed this...I think there's some ambivalence about change. If I administrate myself, that can be seen as me wanting to spend time here. If I delegate, that can be seen as democratic. That may be one reason change is slow.
> MOST of your one liner very short answers are most unsatisfactory.
> Everyonce in awhile you say a wee bit more. And that is very refreshing.What do you find more satisfactory about longer answers?
> yes i feel useless and disempowered
>
> muffledWait, I never said "useless"...
Bob
Posted by Honore on December 23, 2006, at 17:46:28
In reply to Re: disempowerment, posted by Dr. Bob on December 23, 2006, at 16:17:25
Well, they're longer.
Length has practical consequences. One, you can say more.
Second, you signal attending more, and giving more thought.
Honore
Posted by fayeroe on December 24, 2006, at 19:56:42
In reply to Re: disempowerment, posted by Dr. Bob on December 23, 2006, at 16:17:25
> > what is your rationale?
> >
> > fayeroe
>
> For what?
>
> --
>
> > There's been mumblings bout you wanting to not have to spend so much time administrating here.
> > We ARE moving towards a more democratic structure? In what way have we done this? I seem to have missed this...
>
> I think there's some ambivalence about change. If I administrate myself, that can be seen as me wanting to spend time here. If I delegate, that can be seen as democratic. That may be one reason change is slow.
>
> > MOST of your one liner very short answers are most unsatisfactory.
> > Everyonce in awhile you say a wee bit more. And that is very refreshing.
>
> What do you find more satisfactory about longer answers?
>
> > yes i feel useless and disempowered
> >
> > muffled
>
> Wait, I never said "useless"...I think it's easy to feel disempowered here, and that may be what makes this hard for some people. It may trigger them.
But it's not a contradiction to want input on a decision and also still to want to make that decision oneself. Better to ask for input than not. But asking for input, and considering it seriously, doesn't necessarily mean delegating authority.
In some situations, however, being asked what you want does mean being able to decide what you get, and people may assume that's the case here. It usually isn't, but OTOH sometimes it is, so I guess that could be confusing. We may be moving toward a more democratic structure, but we're not there yet.
If you'd like to know what my rationale is, or if I'm open to a change, please just ask.
Bob
and to think, i asked the question that you answered with a question on the very same day...........what is your rationale? is it to drive us crazy? fayeroe
Posted by Dr. Bob on December 24, 2006, at 23:14:06
In reply to Re: disempowerment » Dr. Bob, posted by fayeroe on December 24, 2006, at 19:56:42
> Length has practical consequences. One, you can say more.
>
> Second, you signal attending more, and giving more thought.
>
> HonoreIf I have more to say, I do.
I think #2 may be more of an issue. Shorter answers can be interpreted as caring less. But more attention and more thought don't necessarily result in more words. And vice versa.
--
> what is your rationale? is it to drive us crazy?
>
> fayeroeNo, it's to provide a way for people to support and educate each other. But I realize it can be frustrating here.
Bob
Posted by fayeroe on December 25, 2006, at 8:18:07
In reply to Re: disempowerment, posted by Dr. Bob on December 24, 2006, at 23:14:06
what is your rationale? is it to drive us crazy?
>
> fayeroeNo, it's to provide a way for people to support and educate each other. But I realize it can be frustrating here.
Bob
your entire rationale about all of this is "to provide a way for people to support and educate each other".
this started out about "disempowerment".....i want to know what your rationale is about your policies that cause that feeling.............please don't answer with a question, okay?????????????????????
Posted by muffled on December 25, 2006, at 9:43:55
In reply to Re: disempowerment, posted by Dr. Bob on December 24, 2006, at 23:14:06
No, it's to provide a way for people to support and educate each other. But I realize it can be frustrating here.
Bob
Yes Bob, you have provided a place of support, I agree. Thats why blocks are SO bad. Cuz some people come to rely on this place as a place to get support. Some don't have alot of other support, or don't know how to ask for it yet(like me).
So blocks are doubly bad for that very reason.
When you are blocked it can be extreemly triggering for some, and yet at the same time the source of support has been removed, a double whammy. Thats where if the blocks were only a week, it gives a body a chance to chill, but its not so much the end of the world. Still hard, but bearable.
Then also there is less fear when you come back that you might screw up again and get a longer block. Makes me want to isolate, even when I come back. Partly fear, partly shame. Cuz at least is only going to be a week. Hard, but bearable....
Part of the frustration is due to lack of meaningful communication on your part Bob. And sometimes you just don't seem to 'get' stuff at all...and thats OK, I don't mean to diss you, it just a little frustrating cuz I don't think I get stuff across very well either.
Goto go. I see other stuff to reply but I go to go visiting.
Happy holidays.
Muffled
Posted by Lou Pilder on December 25, 2006, at 9:47:53
In reply to Re: disempowerment, posted by fayeroe on December 25, 2006, at 8:18:07
> what is your rationale? is it to drive us crazy?
> >
> > fayeroe
>
> No, it's to provide a way for people to support and educate each other. But I realize it can be frustrating here.
>
> Bob
>
> your entire rationale about all of this is "to provide a way for people to support and educate each other".
>
> this started out about "disempowerment".....i want to know what your rationale is about your policies that cause that feeling.............please don't answer with a question, okay?????????????????????
>
> Fayeroe,
In the grammatical structure of your statement,[...what your rationale is about your policies that cause that feeling...]could you elaborate on that? If you could, then I could have a better understanding and be better able to respond to the aspects of this thread.
Thanks,
Lou
Posted by fayeroe on December 25, 2006, at 10:52:01
In reply to Lou's request for clsrification from fayeroe » fayeroe, posted by Lou Pilder on December 25, 2006, at 9:47:53
> > what is your rationale? is it to drive us crazy?
> > >
> > > fayeroe
> >
> > No, it's to provide a way for people to support and educate each other. But I realize it can be frustrating here.
> >
> > Bob
> >
> > your entire rationale about all of this is "to provide a way for people to support and educate each other".
> >
> > this started out about "disempowerment".....i want to know what your rationale is about your policies that cause that feeling.............please don't answer with a question, okay?????????????????????
> >
> > Fayeroe,
> In the grammatical structure of your statement,[...what your rationale is about your policies that cause that feeling...]could you elaborate on that? If you could, then I could have a better understanding and be better able to respond to the aspects of this thread.
> Thanks,
> Loubob stated that if someone wanted to know his rationale, in a thread about posters feeling disempowered here, that they should ask.
i asked.
his answer was a question.
i re-asked.
"what is bob's rationale concerning the part of Babble that causes posters to feel disempowered here?" that is my question.
>
>
Posted by Lou Pilder on December 25, 2006, at 11:04:26
In reply to Re: Lou's request for clsrification from fayeroe, posted by fayeroe on December 25, 2006, at 10:52:01
> > > what is your rationale? is it to drive us crazy?
> > > >
> > > > fayeroe
> > >
> > > No, it's to provide a way for people to support and educate each other. But I realize it can be frustrating here.
> > >
> > > Bob
> > >
> > > your entire rationale about all of this is "to provide a way for people to support and educate each other".
> > >
> > > this started out about "disempowerment".....i want to know what your rationale is about your policies that cause that feeling.............please don't answer with a question, okay?????????????????????
> > >
> > > Fayeroe,
> > In the grammatical structure of your statement,[...what your rationale is about your policies that cause that feeling...]could you elaborate on that? If you could, then I could have a better understanding and be better able to respond to the aspects of this thread.
> > Thanks,
> > Lou
>
> bob stated that if someone wanted to know his rationale, in a thread about posters feeling disempowered here, that they should ask.
>
> i asked.
>
> his answer was a question.
>
> i re-asked.
>
> "what is bob's rationale concerning the part of Babble that causes posters to feel disempowered here?" that is my question.
> >
> >
> Fayeroe,
This is now brought in also to a request from me to Dr. Hsiung and he has replied with something about disempowerment to me. I am trying to understand why he replied to me with that and now I see that this thread and your question to him could have something to do with it.
I was not intending to have a discussion with Dr. Hsiung about disempowerment , so I am trying to understand why he posted with that to me. This is 3 threads down from this thread.
Thanks,
Lou
>
Posted by Dr. Bob on December 31, 2006, at 2:43:28
In reply to Re: disempowerment, posted by fayeroe on December 25, 2006, at 8:18:07
> i want to know what your rationale is about your policies that cause that feeling.............please don't answer with a question, okay?????????????????????
Sorry, but I don't think I can answer without knowing which policies those are...
Bob
Posted by fayeroe on December 31, 2006, at 10:00:01
In reply to Re: disempowerment, posted by Dr. Bob on December 31, 2006, at 2:43:28
> > i want to know what your rationale is about your policies that cause that feeling.............please don't answer with a question, okay?????????????????????
>
> Sorry, but I don't think I can answer without knowing which policies those are...
>
> Bobyou're the only one who does KNOW what the policies are. if you noticed, my subject line says "disempowerment"....you told, i believe, HF that if she wanted to know what your rationale was about that, to ask......
i've asked. again.
Posted by fayeroe on December 31, 2006, at 10:03:24
In reply to Re: disempowerment, posted by fayeroe on December 31, 2006, at 10:00:01
> > > i want to know what your rationale is about your policies that cause that feeling.............please don't answer with a question, okay?????????????????????
> >
> > Sorry, but I don't think I can answer without knowing which policies those are...
> >
> > Bob
>
> you're the only one who does KNOW what the policies are. if you noticed, my subject line says "disempowerment"....you told, i believe, HF that if she wanted to know what your rationale was about that, to ask......
>
> i've asked. again. maybe this will help..........
> a feeling of disenfranchisement and disempowerment that I get when I spend too much time on the Admin board.> I got frustrated, because I sensed a contradiction on your part- I sensed that you wish to get feedback from users, but that you also wish to limit decision making. It is equally frustrating that we are very rarely privy to your rationale for making changes. Even major, dramatic changes are often announced like: I'm trying out a new blocking system; or, what do the deputies think? or, let's try this out for now.
>
> If you could explain your reasoning a little bit better, it would help ME to understand whether you are more flexible in terms of some policy changes vs. others. It would help me understand what kind of data and feedback informs your decisions. It would help me understand that making suggestions on the Administration board is not an exercise in futile whining, but that our suggestions are considered seriously.I think it's easy to feel disempowered here, and that may be what makes this hard for some people. It may trigger them.
But it's not a contradiction to want input on a decision and also still to want to make that decision oneself. Better to ask for input than not. But asking for input, and considering it seriously, doesn't necessarily mean delegating authority.
In some situations, however, being asked what you want does mean being able to decide what you get, and people may assume that's the case here. It usually isn't, but OTOH sometimes it is, so I guess that could be confusing. We may be moving toward a more democratic structure, but we're not there yet.
If you'd like to know what my rationale is, or if I'm open to a change, please just ask.
Bob
>
>
Posted by fayeroe on December 31, 2006, at 10:09:34
In reply to Re: disempowerment...for Bob » fayeroe, posted by fayeroe on December 31, 2006, at 10:03:24
i made a mistake. i'm sorry. it wasn't HF who was talking about disempowerment....it was LlurpsieBlossom.......pat
Posted by Dr. Bob on December 31, 2006, at 15:29:57
In reply to Re: disempowerment, posted by fayeroe on December 31, 2006, at 10:00:01
> > > i want to know what your rationale is about your policies that cause that feeling.............please don't answer with a question, okay?????????????????????
> >
> > Sorry, but I don't think I can answer without knowing which policies those are...
>
> you're the only one who does KNOW what the policies are.Sorry, I know the polices here, but I don't know which ones cause a feeling of disempowerment...
Bob
Posted by fayeroe on January 1, 2007, at 19:20:29
In reply to Re: disempowerment, posted by Dr. Bob on December 31, 2006, at 15:29:57
> > > > i want to know what your rationale is about your policies that cause that feeling.............please don't answer with a question, okay?????????????????????
> > >
> > > Sorry, but I don't think I can answer without knowing which policies those are...
> >
> > you're the only one who does KNOW what the policies are.
>
> Sorry, I know the polices here, but I don't know which ones cause a feeling of disempowerment...
>
> Bobsame song, second verse.
> a feeling of disenfranchisement and disempowerment that I get when I spend too much time on the Admin board.
> I got frustrated, because I sensed a contradiction on your part- I sensed that you wish to get feedback from users, but that you also wish to limit decision making. It is equally frustrating that we are very rarely privy to your rationale for making changes. Even major, dramatic changes are often announced like: I'm trying out a new blocking system; or, what do the deputies think? or, let's try this out for now.
>
> If you could explain your reasoning a little bit better, it would help ME to understand whether you are more flexible in terms of some policy changes vs. others. It would help me understand what kind of data and feedback informs your decisions. It would help me understand that making suggestions on the Administration board is not an exercise in futile whining, but that our suggestions are considered seriously.I think it's easy to feel disempowered here, and that may be what makes this hard for some people. It may trigger them.
But it's not a contradiction to want input on a decision and also still to want to make that decision oneself. Better to ask for input than not. But asking for input, and considering it seriously, doesn't necessarily mean delegating authority.
In some situations, however, being asked what you want does mean being able to decide what you get, and people may assume that's the case here. It usually isn't, but OTOH sometimes it is, so I guess that could be confusing. We may be moving toward a more democratic structure, but we're not there yet.
If you'd like to know what my rationale is, or if I'm open to a change, please just ask.
Bob
What is your rationale about this????????????
Posted by muffled on January 1, 2007, at 20:40:41
In reply to Re: disempowerment » Dr. Bob, posted by fayeroe on January 1, 2007, at 19:20:29
> I got frustrated, because I sensed a contradiction on your part- I sensed that you wish to get feedback from users, but that you also wish to limit decision making. It is equally frustrating that we are very rarely privy to your rationale for making changes. Even major, dramatic changes are often announced like: I'm trying out a new blocking system; or, what do the deputies think? or, let's try this out for now.
> If you could explain your reasoning a little bit better, it would help ME to understand whether you are more flexible in terms of some policy changes vs. others. It would help me understand what kind of data and feedback informs your decisions. It would help me understand that making suggestions on the Administration board is not an exercise in futile whining, but that our suggestions are considered seriously.Fayroe, can I try to rephrase this and you tell me if this is what you are saying?
Bob, you ask for feeback sometimes but seldom appear to take the info we give into your descion making. So why ask for feedback at all? Its frustrating.
Decisions seem to just appear magically, with no reasons given as to how you have come to that decision. We would like to know how they came about..
If we knew more about you and your thinking processes Bob, we might better be able to communicate with you. Cuz at this point it is very difficult. You are very closed, and confusing as a result.So Fayroe, are you asking Bob to explain his rationale as to specific decisions he makes?
I guess I a little confused here too.
MuufledFOR BOB:
>But it's not a contradiction to want input on a decision and also still to want to make that decision oneself.*of course, but we often wonder whether you even take input into consideration AT ALL. Or are we just flapping our gums? Or typing our keys I guess I should say.
>Better to ask for input than not.
**I don't think this is true AT ALL Bob. I think you should ONLY ask for input if you are seriously going to consider it.....otherwise it results in...frustration...
But asking for input, and considering it seriously,
doesn't necessarily mean delegating authority.
**Now tell me where THE HELL did THAT come from?????????????
Nobody said NOTHING bout delegating authority!!!!!!
We just want to be heard and acknowleged in more verbose and concrete ways. We want to be included informationally into why you do the things you do here. HOW your decisions were made. And WHY do we? Cuz we care about this site, but we see things that come up again and again, and are hurtful, all in the name of not hurting......
Muffled
Posted by notfred on January 3, 2007, at 13:14:21
In reply to Re: disempowerment/Fayroe/Bob, posted by muffled on January 1, 2007, at 20:40:41
"FOR BOB:
>But it's not a contradiction to want input on a decision and also still to want to make that decision oneself.*of course, but we often wonder whether you even take input into consideration AT ALL. Or are we just flapping our gums? Or typing our keys I guess I should say."
What about getting Dr bob to change the way he figures block times and how he rounds ? That happened due to our input. So the answer to this:
"whether you even take input into consideration AT ALL" is that he does make changes based on our input.It seems to me some have selective memory, and only remember the times Dr Bob did not take our
input and do as we want.
Posted by muffled on January 3, 2007, at 13:30:22
In reply to Re: disempowerment/Fayroe/Bob, posted by notfred on January 3, 2007, at 13:14:21
> "FOR BOB:
> It seems to me some have selective memory, and only remember the times Dr Bob did not take our
> input and do as we want.**Oh SOME eh, selective memory??? Like ME mebbe????????? I DO have memory issues :-(.....oh notfred, you skirting awful close to them magic civility lines....I could be feeling dissed by what you said...but I will get over it of course. If you apologised I'd feel even better. And we could set an example of well managed civility WITHOUT the intervention of Bob being requiered.
Anyhow, if you look at my many other posts, you will see that MANY times I have said myself that there HAS been change, and that IS heartening, and thats why I haven't given up. BUT, there needs to be more change, and I am trying very hard to try and make Bob understand my POV as I am not the only one who feels the way I do. I feel very strongly bout the length of blocks. And some blocks I just do not understand :(
I feel part of the problem is that we feel rather NOT heard by Bob often times. His answers are often confusing and just lead to more questions. I find myself quite frustrated in trying to communicate with him.
Posted by notfred on January 3, 2007, at 14:55:00
In reply to :-( » notfred, posted by muffled on January 3, 2007, at 13:30:22
"BUT, there needs to be more change, and I am trying very hard to try and make Bob understand my POV as I am not the only one who feels the way I do."
Well I think the problem is not that Dr Bob does not understand the hurt some feel when blocked.
People can hear you but choose to not take actions
based on what they have heard. I think a different
tatctic is needed in this case."I feel very strongly bout the length of blocks."
Yes I agree the way length works is having an unintended effect of giving longer and longer blocks to persons who seem key to these kind of boards. Minor offences should not advance the length factor at all or to a lessor degree.
I like Dinah's concept of a hierarchy of offences.
"And some blocks I just do not understand :("I think you have to accept that 2 people will sometimes see things differently.
"I feel part of the problem is that we feel rather NOT heard by Bob often times. His answers are often confusing and just lead to more questions."
Dr Bob gets a lot of questions. A whole lot. Then
each answer is picked a part and generates more questions. In some cases longer answers might cut down on the number of questions generated. But not here. Not by a long shot.
Posted by muffled on January 3, 2007, at 15:43:57
In reply to :-( » notfred, posted by muffled on January 3, 2007, at 13:30:22
I feel annoyed.
I will go now.
Posted by fayeroe on January 3, 2007, at 18:55:03
In reply to Re: :-(, posted by muffled on January 3, 2007, at 15:43:57
> I feel annoyed.
> I will go now.((muffled))
Posted by muffled on January 3, 2007, at 19:13:38
In reply to Re: :-(, posted by notfred on January 3, 2007, at 14:55:00
> People can hear you but choose to not take actions
> based on what they have heard. I think a different
> tatctic is needed in this case.*what tactic?
> Yes I agree the way length works is having an unintended effect of giving longer and longer blocks to persons who seem key to these kind of boards. Minor offences should not advance the length factor at all or to a lessor degree.
> I like Dinah's concept of a hierarchy of offences.*Yes thats a good idea. Would be a whole lots less complicated if it was just a week, thats that. I would think if a person kept getting repeatedly blocked they'd either clue in or go away.
> "And some blocks I just do not understand :("
>
> I think you have to accept that 2 people will sometimes see things differently.**I guess part of what I don't understand is that this is a mental health community, we will have 'moments'. I would expect it. But the big punishments are almost like punishment against us cuz we not well...:( , not good enough, bad....
> Dr Bob gets a lot of questions. A whole lot. Then
> each answer is picked a part and generates more questions. In some cases longer answers might cut down on the number of questions generated. But not here. Not by a long shot.**I'm sure Bob gets lots og=f questions and it generates more questions, BECAUSE HE'S NOT CLEAR IN THE FIRST PLACE....
What do you mean by 'not here. Not by a long shot.'
I don't know what you mean by these blanket statements? Am I an especially annoying person? Is that it? Or memebe its my selective memory problems that cause me to be this way? Mebbe I am a sh*t head. I have always thot it so. My T trys to tell me otherwise, but she supposed to. But ther's no vested intrest here, no job, so mebbe its true.
Probably.
WTF.
I just should've stayed away.
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